Guinness PRO12 Fixtures

by bedfordwelsh Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:07 am

First topic message reminder :

Not seen this yet but here first 2 rounds of fixtures:

5/6/7 Sep Connacht Rugby v Newport Gwent Dragons Sportsground

5/6/7 Sep Glasgow Warriors v Leinster Rugby Scotstoun Stadium

5/6/7 Sep Munster Rugby v Edinburgh Rugby Thomond Park

5/6/7 Sep Ospreys v Benetton Treviso Liberty Stadium

5/6/7 Sep Scarlets v Ulster Rugby Parc y Scarlets

5/6/7 Sep Zebre v Cardiff Blues Stadio XXV Aprile

12/13/14 Sep Benetton Treviso v Munster Rugby Stadio Monigo

12/13/14 Sep Cardiff Blues v Glasgow Warriors BT Sport Cardiff Arms Park

12/13/14 Sep Edinburgh Rugby v Connacht Rugby BT Murrayfield

12/13/14 Sep Leinster Rugby v Scarlets RDS Arena

12/13/14 Sep Newport Gwent Dragons v Ospreys Rodney Parade

12/13/14 Sep Ulster Rugby v Zebre Kingspan Stadium

Nive early season home derby for us agains the Os, 2 big games for the Scarlets to get their season up and running

by Chunky Norwich Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:32 am

Notch wrote:

We're lucky to get that with the ongoing farce of the regions and the WRU undermining the league, lets be honest.

Sense at last. If only your Union thought like you did.

by **Notch** Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:34 am

I'm sure the IRFU do think the Welsh crisis is undermining the commercial prospects of the league.

by Chunky Norwich Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:44 am

Notch wrote:I'm sure the IRFU do think the Welsh crisis is undermining the commercial prospects of the league.

You said the WRU. Which I totally agree with.

by Scrumpy Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:45 am

Peanuts.

by GoodinTightSpaces Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:47 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Notch wrote:I'm sure the IRFU do think the Welsh crisis is undermining the commercial prospects of the league.

You said the WRU. Which I totally agree with.

he did say the WRU you are right. well done. what he is say though is his Union is the IRFU. Simples

by Chunky Norwich Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:53 am

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:

he did say the WRU you are right. well done. what he is say though is his Union is the IRFU. Simples

In English?

by GoodinTightSpaces Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:56 am

sorry i left out the odd "ing" and comma, but if you concentrate really hard you may be able to decipher what i was saying in the previous post.

by Scrumpy Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:56 am

by Chunky Norwich Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:58 am

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:sorry i left out the odd "ing" and comma, but if you concentrate really hard you may be able to decipher what i was saying in the previous post.

Nope. Haven't got a scooby.

by St John The Enforcer Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:01 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Nope. Haven't got a scooby.

Jaysus! Are you only realising that now? Laugh

by Chunky Norwich Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:02 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:There was only 1 thursday league game last season and that was because it had to be rescheduled to a HC weekend...

I don't know where you were last season. On a long holiday perhaps?

There were 6 Thursday fixtures in the league last season. 3 of those can be discounted because they were Xmas fixtures. The other 3 are continuously given excuses for by the Pro12 apologists.

He went quiet.

by LeinsterFan4life Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:08 am

Do you remember what the 3 fixtures were? I only remember one of them and that was the rescheduled one that I mentioned... We'll see soon if there are thursday fixtures this year.

by bedfordwelsh Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:11 am

Why do kick off times really matter? I have already pre-planned what games I am going to home for that won't change once I know the kick off times.

You look at fixture dates if the fixture is a Friday then pretty much gonna be 7 kick off, Sundays normally a 2-3 kick off and then Saturdays normally 2-3 or around 6 ish

by Chunky Norwich Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:12 am

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Do you remember what the 3 fixtures were? I only remember one of them and that was the rescheduled one that I mentioned...

Cardiff v Leinster
Newport v somebody
zebre v ospreys

As I said the excuses followed last time I mentioned them

We'll see soon if there are Thursday fixtures this year.

That's the whole point. We won't know soon. We'll only know the fixtures up until what November?

by Chunky Norwich Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:13 am

bedfordwelsh wrote:Why do kick off times really matter? I have already pre-planned what games I am going to home for that won't change once I know the kick off times.

You look at fixture dates if the fixture is a Friday then pretty much gonna be 7 kick off, Sundays normally a 2-3 kick off and then Saturdays normally 2-3 or around 6 ish

Because I need to take a half day annual leave if a game is on Friday, and I need to arrange childcare if a game is on a Sunday.

Just minor things like that.

by GoodinTightSpaces Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:29 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:Why do kick off times really matter? I have already pre-planned what games I am going to home for that won't change once I know the kick off times.

You look at fixture dates if the fixture is a Friday then pretty much gonna be 7 kick off, Sundays normally a 2-3 kick off and then Saturdays normally 2-3 or around 6 ish

Because I need to take a half day annual leave if a game is on Friday, and I need to arrange childcare if a game is on a Sunday.

Just minor things like that.

you have reproduced???

by Chunky Norwich Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:30 am

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:

you have reproduced???

See if I said something like that I'd get a warning.

by ScarletSpiderman Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:33 am

Ok lets cut the nonesence now, keep it on topic or get a boot up the bum

by Scrumpy Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:40 am

by GoodinTightSpaces Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:41 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
GoodinTightSpaces wrote:

you have reproduced???

See if I said something like that I'd get a warning.

that was said with tongue firmly in cheek. apologies if it offended

by **Notch** Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:44 am

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Notch wrote:I'm sure the IRFU do think the Welsh crisis is undermining the commercial prospects of the league.

You said the WRU. Which I totally agree with.

he did say the WRU you are right. well done. what he is say though is his Union is the IRFU. Simples

Yes.

by Guest Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:35 am

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:do you need the fixture lists to book your holidays or something,

Look at the premiership in soccer ball, they dont release the full years kick off times. whats your opinion on that?

It is a bit different though, as you don't strictly have to take a flight for a lot of their games and it is nice to know as early as possible what day you need to fly out/home to try and get the best possible deals.

by Guest Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:41 am

bedfordwelsh wrote:Why do kick off times really matter? I have already pre-planned what games I am going to home for that won't change once I know the kick off times.

You look at fixture dates if the fixture is a Friday then pretty much gonna be 7 kick off, Sundays normally a 2-3 kick off and then Saturdays normally 2-3 or around 6 ish

Home games are fine. Away games are more of an issue though. Wouldn't it be nice to know whether you only need to book say a Friday night, Saturday night stay somewhere in advance?

by ScarletSpiderman Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:20 am

Risca Rev wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:Why do kick off times really matter? I have already pre-planned what games I am going to home for that won't change once I know the kick off times.

You look at fixture dates if the fixture is a Friday then pretty much gonna be 7 kick off, Sundays normally a 2-3 kick off and then Saturdays normally 2-3 or around 6 ish

Home games are fine. Away games are more of an issue though. Wouldn't it be nice to know whether you only need to book say a Friday night, Saturday night stay somewhere in advance?

To be honest it would be interesting to see if attendances across the league picked up due to earlier announcement of ko times/dates. After all except the local derby games it is pretty rare to see more than 100 or so away fans at games.

by Chunky Norwich Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:19 am

Pathetic

Welsh rugby has been hit by a new calamity, with our regions scheduled to play in two different competitions on the same weekend in the coming season!

The release of the LV=Cup fixtures has revealed that the opening round of the Anglo-Welsh tournament clashes with a round of matches in the Guinness Pro 12.

It shows the Blues and the Scarlets are due to meet in the LV=Cup at the Arms Park on the weekend of October 31-November 2, with the Dragons hosting holders Exeter and the Ospreys travelling to Gloucester.

But on that same weekend, the four regions are supposed to be playing matches in the Pro12.

The LV= Cup fixtures clash with matches in the new Guinness Pro 12

The Blues, Ospreys and Scarlets are due to be at home to Munster, Connacht and Zebre respectively, with the Dragons away to Ulster.

It remains unclear at the moment what the reason for the fixture clash is.

But LV= Cup organisers the RFU have issued the following statement: “The WRU is currently in negotiations with the regions regarding the Participation Agreement for the upcoming season.

“Once those negotiations have concluded, they will address the potential clash for Welsh clubs in Round 1 of the LV= Cup, the dates of which were agreed by all LV= Cup stakeholders back in April 2014.”

The LV=Cup is a complicated enough competition in its own rights, as teams don’t play sides in their own group.

The English clubs are unaffected by the clash as there are no Aviva Premiership matches scheduled for the weekend of October 31-Nov 2.

by ScarletSpiderman Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:24 am

Chunky, are the shareholders the WRU or the regions? And who negotiates he Pro12 dates, the WRU or Regions? Could be a deliberate clash, with us both trying to make the other ones look dumb.

by Chunky Norwich Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:30 am

see other thread. I was under the impression that WRU was the signatories in both. But we know that the LV Cup were agreed in May, and the WRU are definitely signatories in pro12. So I don't see how the fault could lie with regions.

by demosthenes Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:24 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Risca Rev wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:Why do kick off times really matter? I have already pre-planned what games I am going to home for that won't change once I know the kick off times.

You look at fixture dates if the fixture is a Friday then pretty much gonna be 7 kick off, Sundays normally a 2-3 kick off and then Saturdays normally 2-3 or around 6 ish

Home games are fine. Away games are more of an issue though. Wouldn't it be nice to know whether you only need to book say a Friday night, Saturday night stay somewhere in advance?

To be honest it would be interesting to see if attendances across the league picked up due to earlier announcement of ko times/dates. After all except the local derby games it is pretty rare to see more than 100 or so away fans at games.

From a Glasgow perspective we don't usually see many Welsh supporters; and even fewer Italians. More Irish, especially Ulster, although their numbers are boosted by NI students and workers based in Glasgow.

by **RDW** Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:16 am

There's a massive Irish/Norhern Irish contingent in Edinburgh - especially Munster and Ulster - so we easily get over 1000 when the Irish teams are in.

by Sin é Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:33 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Chunky, are the shareholders the WRU or the regions? And who negotiates he Pro12 dates, the WRU or Regions? Could be a deliberate clash, with us both trying to make the other ones look dumb.

I'd say its more Sky et al dictating who is playing when and what more than negotiating with the Pro12 partners.

by ScarletSpiderman Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:39 am

Sin é wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:Chunky, are the shareholders the WRU or the regions? And who negotiates he Pro12 dates, the WRU or Regions? Could be a deliberate clash, with us both trying to make the other ones look dumb.

I'd say its more Sky et al dictating who is playing when and what more than negotiating with the Pro12 partners.

Even if sky are responsible, the WRU should have the grapes to say sorry we have game arranged already for that weekend.

by Sin é Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:44 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Sin é wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:Chunky, are the shareholders the WRU or the regions? And who negotiates he Pro12 dates, the WRU or Regions? Could be a deliberate clash, with us both trying to make the other ones look dumb.

I'd say its more Sky et al dictating who is playing when and what more than negotiating with the Pro12 partners.

Even if sky are responsible, the WRU should have the grapes to say sorry we have game arranged already for that weekend.

The Irish Provinces (including Connacht who don't have a huge squad) play B&I Cup games on the same weekend as the Heineken Cup. Surely the Regions can manage to do something similar. Isn't the LV Cup a development cup anyway?

by **Notch** Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:46 am

Is the LV-Cup on Sky now? I thought it was FTA.

Really, making sure you're not playing two games on one weekend is as basic as it gets... I assume the reason there is no Premiership that weekend is because the RFU have agreed that there'll be some England training camp before the test matches or something.

So the weekend the regions will have free later in the year, there'll be some premiership game on.

by HammerofThunor Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:47 am

Sin é wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Sin é wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:Chunky, are the shareholders the WRU or the regions? And who negotiates he Pro12 dates, the WRU or Regions? Could be a deliberate clash, with us both trying to make the other ones look dumb.

I'd say its more Sky et al dictating who is playing when and what more than negotiating with the Pro12 partners.

Even if sky are responsible, the WRU should have the grapes to say sorry we have game arranged already for that weekend.

The Irish Provinces (including Connacht who don't have a huge squad) play B&I Cup games on the same weekend as the Heineken Cup. Surely the Regions can manage to do something similar. Isn't the LV Cup a development cup anyway?

No. Not in the same way the B&I cup is, where the Provinces enter 'A' teams rather than weakened 1st teams. Teams enter whoever they want but they usually take place during the international windows. But sides do put in their first team (Bath, Worcester and Sale all ave recently).

by Sin é Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:00 am

HammerofThunor wrote:
Sin é wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Sin é wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:Chunky, are the shareholders the WRU or the regions? And who negotiates he Pro12 dates, the WRU or Regions? Could be a deliberate clash, with us both trying to make the other ones look dumb.

I'd say its more Sky et al dictating who is playing when and what more than negotiating with the Pro12 partners.

Even if sky are responsible, the WRU should have the grapes to say sorry we have game arranged already for that weekend.

The Irish Provinces (including Connacht who don't have a huge squad) play B&I Cup games on the same weekend as the Heineken Cup. Surely the Regions can manage to do something similar. Isn't the LV Cup a development cup anyway?

No. Not in the same way the B&I cup is, where the Provinces enter 'A' teams rather than weakened 1st teams. Teams enter whoever they want but they usually take place during the international windows. But sides do put in their first team (Bath, Worcester and Sale all ave recently).

A Provincial 'A' team is primarily made up of players from the academy/fringe players with one or two senior pros to provide experience. Here is a team from last year: Rory Scannell; Luke O'Dea (Niall Kenneally 68), Cian Bohane, Ivan Dineen, Ronan O'Mahony; Johnny Holland, Duncan Williams (Gerry Hurley 78); Alan Cotter (Brian Scott 70), Niall Scannell Capt., John Ryan; Dave Foley (Darren O'Shea 61), Ian Nagle; Dave O'Callaghan, Ryan Murphy (Tommy O'Donnell 48), Shane Buckley Replacements: Max Abbott, Brian Scott, Darren O'Shea, Tommy O'Donnell, Gerry Hurley, Niall Kenneally, Alex Wootton.

Tommy O'Donnell (who was coming back from injury) & Dave O'Callaghan is probably the only recognisable name there. The rest are Academy players.

The LV cup is meant to be a development cup isn't it? The English teams seem to use it that way anyway.

by **Notch** Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:02 am

They are going to be facing much better opposition than the Provinces A teams would face in the British and Irish Cup.

Even when we play the better Championship sides in that tournament it's their second string.

by ScarletSpiderman Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:11 am

Yeah LV= is the HEC, B&I is the Amlin, sort of thing.

by Sin é Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:23 am

Notch wrote:They are going to be facing much better opposition than the Provinces A teams would face in the British and Irish Cup.

Even when we play the better Championship sides in that tournament it's their second string.

These are the teams that played against each other in the LV Cup.

The teams:

Cardiff Blues: 15 Dan Fish, 14 Tom Williams, 13 Richard Smith, 12 Dafydd Hewitt, 11 Chris Czekaj, 10 Gareth Davies, 9 Lewis Jones, 8 Andries Pretorius (c), 7 Thomas Young, 6 Macauley Cook, 5 James Down, 4 Miles Normandale, 3 Benoit Bourrust, 2 Kristian Dacey, 1 Tom Davies.
Replacements: 16 Rhys Williams, 17 Sam Hobbs, 18 Taufa'ao Filise, 19 Luke Hamilton, 20 Rory Watts-Jones, 21 Alex Walker, 22 Simon Humberstone, 23 Gavin Evans.

Worcester: 15 Ben Howard, 14 Josh Drauniniu, 13 Jon Clarke, 12 Max Stelling, 11 James Stephenson, 10 Ignacio Mieres, 9 Paul Hodgson (c), 8 Leonardo Senatore, 7 Jake Abbott, 6 Sam Betty, 5 Chris Jones, 4 Mike Williams, 3 Rob O'Donnell, 2 Ed Shervington, 1 Jeremy Becasseau.
Replacements: 16 Nick Seymour, 17 George Porter, 18 Ofa Fainga'anuku, 19 Dean Schofield, 20 Jonathan Thomas, 21 George de Cothi, 22 Paul Warwick, 23 Andy Symons.

I don't ever recall seeing Miles Normandale playing for Cardiff in a Pro12 match!

by Sin é Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:25 am

Notch wrote:They are going to be facing much better opposition than the Provinces A teams would face in the British and Irish Cup.

Even when we play the better Championship sides in that tournament it's their second string.

They certainly don't when it gets to the knock-out stages (which both Munster & Leinster have been in both competitions for the last couple of years).

by HammerofThunor Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:38 am

Sin é wrote:
Notch wrote:They are going to be facing much better opposition than the Provinces A teams would face in the British and Irish Cup.

Even when we play the better Championship sides in that tournament it's their second string.

They certainly don't when it gets to the knock-out stages (which both Munster & Leinster have been in both competitions for the last couple of years).

And at the same point during the LV the clubs field their stronger sides. I'd have thought Leicester, Saints, Quins, etc with most of their first team are significantly stronger than Leeds or Plymouth Albion's 1st team. And the premeirship second teams would be stronger than championship second teams.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was some sponsorship clause to stop clashes anyway.

by ScarletSpiderman Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:43 am

Sin é wrote:
Notch wrote:They are going to be facing much better opposition than the Provinces A teams would face in the British and Irish Cup.

Even when we play the better Championship sides in that tournament it's their second string.

These are the teams that played against each other in the LV Cup.

The teams:

Cardiff Blues: 15 Dan Fish, 14 Tom Williams, 13 Richard Smith, 12 Dafydd Hewitt, 11 Chris Czekaj, 10 Gareth Davies, 9 Lewis Jones, 8 Andries Pretorius (c), 7 Thomas Young, 6 Macauley Cook, 5 James Down, 4 Miles Normandale, 3 Benoit Bourrust, 2 Kristian Dacey, 1 Tom Davies.
Replacements: 16 Rhys Williams, 17 Sam Hobbs, 18 Taufa'ao Filise, 19 Luke Hamilton, 20 Rory Watts-Jones, 21 Alex Walker, 22 Simon Humberstone, 23 Gavin Evans.

Worcester: 15 Ben Howard, 14 Josh Drauniniu, 13 Jon Clarke, 12 Max Stelling, 11 James Stephenson, 10 Ignacio Mieres, 9 Paul Hodgson (c), 8 Leonardo Senatore, 7 Jake Abbott, 6 Sam Betty, 5 Chris Jones, 4 Mike Williams, 3 Rob O'Donnell, 2 Ed Shervington, 1 Jeremy Becasseau.
Replacements: 16 Nick Seymour, 17 George Porter, 18 Ofa Fainga'anuku, 19 Dean Schofield, 20 Jonathan Thomas, 21 George de Cothi, 22 Paul Warwick, 23 Andy Symons.

I don't ever recall seeing Miles Normandale playing for Cardiff in a Pro12 match!

Played when Wales players were missing, so no Brad Davies or Lou Reed etc

by Sin é Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:46 am

Isn't the LV Cup mainly played during international windows.

I guess there are only so many weeks in the year so maybe the problem is that the Welsh are in too many competitions if they are not prepared to use their full squads.

by ScarletSpiderman Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:18 pm

Sin é wrote:Isn't the LV Cup mainly played during international windows.

I guess there are only so many weeks in the year so maybe the problem is that the Welsh are in too many competitions if they are not prepared to use their full squads.

Originally that is why the regions didn't want to be in the Anglo-Welsh because we were competitive enough with the Celtic league and HEC (ironic eh), but the WRU put it upon us. That's also why its on during international windows now. And also part of the argument surrounding compensation for the additional player release, and allowing addition NWQ spaces, so we can have some squad depth to deal with fixture congestion.

by **Notch** Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:22 pm

Sin é wrote:
Notch wrote:They are going to be facing much better opposition than the Provinces A teams would face in the British and Irish Cup.

Even when we play the better Championship sides in that tournament it's their second string.

They certainly don't when it gets to the knock-out stages (which both Munster & Leinster have been in both competitions for the last couple of years).

And is this the knock-out stages of the LV we're talking about?

by Welshmushroom Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:33 pm

For me the LV cup is a total waste of time since the cash incentives to win the thing was removed. The travel costs for the Welsh regions are pointless and are never recouped by the home matches. Given they already know they wont qualify from their groups and use it purely for development, shouldn't it be scrapped? They should be focusing their attention purely on the league and making sure fixtures are completed on a round by round basis.

by HammerofThunor Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:34 pm

Sin é wrote:Isn't the LV Cup mainly played during international windows.

I guess there are only so many weeks in the year so maybe the problem is that the Welsh are in too many competitions if they are not prepared to use their full squads.

The Premiership is able to fit in the league, LV, and Europe without clashing. Starts and ends the same time as the Pro12.

Edit: this weekend is the one just before the 1st internationals, a point when the international players usually aren't available. Good job this time the Regions will have their international players.

by Cardiff Dave Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:06 pm

Welshmushroom wrote:For me the LV cup is a total waste of time since the cash incentives to win the thing was removed. The travel costs for the Welsh regions are pointless and are never recouped by the home matches. Given they already know they wont qualify from their groups and use it purely for development, shouldn't it be scrapped? They should be focusing their attention purely on the league and making sure fixtures are completed on a round by round basis.

I agree with you WM. There's a novelty. Must be due to the hot sunny weather I guess.

by Cardiff Dave Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:19 pm

Sin é wrote:Isn't the LV Cup mainly played during international windows.

I guess there are only so many weeks in the year so maybe the problem is that the Welsh are in too many competitions if they are not prepared to use their full squads.

Now it is, but it didn't used to be when EDF were sponsoring the comp, IIRC of course;

Cardiff Blues 23 Leicester Tigers 9

http://www.cardiffblues.com/rugby/1739.php

by ScarletSpiderman Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:46 pm

Dai the pro12 was smaller then though. But I really miss the Edf and Powergen Cup days, full sides competing for worthwhile silverware, double header semifinals at the MS, and the final at Twickers. Back then the regions were actually competitive in it back then too.

by Welshmushroom Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:54 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Dai the pro12 was smaller then though. But I really miss the Edf and Powergen Cup days, full sides competing for worthwhile silverware, double header semifinals at the MS, and the final at Twickers. Back then the regions were actually competitive in it back then too.

Aye but only because of the prize money which was lucrative for the winners for a handful of games. The moment the PRL didn't secure the prize money that EDF had put up and given no welsh region could gain a extra HC spot through winning it, it ended any interest the welsh had in competing in it. Now it's just a massive inconvenience.

Basically its a total sham of an event and I have no idea why on earth our regions are even trying to keep this going. And there was me thinking the Challenge Cup was a mickey mouse trophy.

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