Anyone think the new pan european tournament looks a little... lopsided?

First topic message reminder :

Just had a look at the groups, and well it looks less like a representitive tournament than PRL/LNR invitational.

Now i'm not having a go, or have any vested interest, but surely so many games every year involving either 2 English teams or 2 french teams playing each other in the group stage detracts from the competition.

I prefer a tournament that has Europes and rugbys interest in mind, and like this tournament less now I know it's an elitist version of a once great spectacle.

What is wrong with allowing 2 Scottish teams, 2 Italian teams and maybe Spanish, Russian national representitives?

LordDowlais wrote:So can anybody tell me what the point of the arguments over Europe was about in the first place ? The French and English clubs do not look to have gained anything from it.

control. that was always the aim and its worked - they flexed their muscles and e have already seen one follow on from this is the artifical row over compensation during the WC. The PRL now effectively control english rugby.

TJ wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:So can anybody tell me what the point of the arguments over Europe was about in the first place ? The French and English clubs do not look to have gained anything from it.

control.  that was always the aim and its worked - they flexed their muscles and e have already seen one follow on from this is the artifical row over compensation during the WC.  The PRL now effectively control english rugby.

Really? So do they pick the international team? Do they control the training and medical aspects of the EPS players? Do they organise the championship? The amateur leagues? Any thing whatsoever to do with anything other than their own games?

What happened is the PRL have have 33% say in the commercial aspects of the European cups. That's it, with regards to control. They also cemented their involvement in the general running of the competition, but didn't gain more power than they had before (as sin e has pointed out previously).

They effectively have control as it has been seen that the PRL are calling the shots. What the PRL call for they get. Its not overt power but its clear who is pulling the strings - and it ain't the RFU. Its laughable to deny this. See my earlier post.

Call what shots? You're doing you usual hyperbole with no detail.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/11122432/New-European-rugby-format-will-be-a-cash-bonanza-for-clubs-says-Premier-Rugbys-Mark-McCafferty.html#disqus_thread


“We are very near to completing all the TV deals and that was our priority,” he said. “Broadcasting accounts for almost three-quarters of all revenues so that needed to be done first. You can’t really go to market properly for sponsors until your TV arrangements are in place.
"There have been a lot of naysayers about our ability to get things done and, of course, we wanted to have the new governance sorted much sooner than we did. It all got held up.
"But TV deals alone will yield a lot, lot more than they did under European Rugby Cup. This is only going to grow and grow. All our revenue streams will be an improvement on what we had before. We are very confident of that.”


Rather than one lead sponsor, EPCR is putting together a portfolio. Telegraph Sport understands that Heineken will be one of five partners, at a reduced rate of around €3.5 million rather than the €11 million it was believed to be contributing as title sponsor. The new company will be based in Neuchâtel in Switzerland, although many of the operating services will be carried out in the first season by former ERC staff.

I think if Heineken are back on board it may put other sponsers off, for the first year or two anyway while their name is still synonymous with the European Cup. I think I would be reluctant to pay the same as them to be an "equal" sponsor this year until the cup has established it's own identity away from the old competition.

HammerofThunor wrote:Call what shots? You're doing you usual hyperbole with no detail.

The shots!  Who gets the best room with the satin sheets and the mirrored ceiling; and who gets the ladies to go with it.  The shots!  Ain't you never been to a party with your mates where you pick up the best deals by virtue of your ability with a headbutt if you don't get your way?!!  God, Hammer, isn't it about time you lived up to your name.  Don't let the little lads dictate who gets the rooms with the views.  Assert yoself!

It will not be long before the salary cap in England is totally scrapped, because at the moment it look's as though a French team will win the European cup and without the Celtic league to blame with how players are rested, they will start harping on how the French can spend what they like to get the best, and that is why they cannot win it.

I been a preachin' about this...................... but sinners never listen to the Word

LordDowlais wrote:It will not be long before the salary cap in England is totally scrapped, because at the moment it look's as though a French team will win the European cup and without the Celtic league to blame with how players are rested, they will start harping on how the French can spend what they like to get the best, and that is why they cannot win it.

Yup - its already been raised significantly despite the PRL supporters on there saying it wouldn't.

So three weeks before kick-off of the Euro cup and where do the various teams stand

Leinster-Harlequins-Castres-Wasps

After dog rough groups in past few years, Leinster should be feeling reasonably happy with Quins in a bit of a crisis, Castres propping up the T14 although Wasps are in the top half of the Prem. Leinster have been no great shakes so far but you'd have to think this group is there for the winning unless Quins improve dramatically, Castres display some interest in the proceedings for once and Wasps improve a bit more. Verdict - Leinster to win with enough points for a home QF

Sale-Munster-Saracens-Clermont

Munster, currently playing total sh1te, in serious danger of being dumped out before the knockouts with the two big beasts of Sarries and Clermont fighting it out for top slot. Suspect Sarries will top the group with enough for a home QF

Leicester-Ulster-Toulon-Scarlets

Hard to see beyond Toulon and a home QF here to be honest, Leicester and Ulster probably fighting it for second place

Glasgow-Bath-Toulouse-Montpelier

This must be the best chance Glasgow have ever had of topping a group and a likely home QF. Toulouse in apparent total disarray at joint bottom of T14, Montpelier in mid-table of T14 and will be predictably useless in their away matches. Between Glasgow and an apparently resurgent Bath - but will go for Glasgow

Racing Metro-Northampton-Ospreys-Treviso

Two will go through from this group with Treviso there for 10 points to be taken. Ospreys top of Pro12, Saints up high in Prem - think it will be between the two of them with Saints likely to shade it. RM's useless away form means they may lose out

So group wins for Leinster, Saracens, Toulon, Glasgow and Northampton - with the 3 runner-up slots going to Clermont, Ospreys and either Ulster/Leicester or Bath

Thoughts

Agreement has been reached for France 2 (free to air) to broadcast 1 game a weekend.

Midi Olympic reporting that Turkish Airlines & Renault maybe close to agreeing sponsorship deal.

The Turkish Airlines Renault?

Hmmm...doesn't have the same ring to it as The Heineken. It might be the best car on its flightplan but........................ it don't ring nicely on the ear.

SecretFly wrote:The Turkish Airlines Renault?

Hmmm...doesn't have the same ring to it as The Heineken.  It might be the best car on its flightplan but........................  it don't ring nicely on the ear.

the TAR cup .... what else do you want ?

Yikes, I read that Clermont have only conceeded 3 tries so far this season. Next best is Toulon with conceeding 11.

Sin é wrote:Yikes, I read that Clermont have only conceeded 3 tries so far this season. Next best is Toulon with conceeding 11.

yep and 2 of which were conceded during their first game against Grenoble. After that the only difficult opposition they faced was Montpelier (losing at home) so they need to be tested though. but it's true they changed a bit their style and are more pragmatic nowadays (14 tries scored while toulon scored 27).

TJ wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:It will not be long before the salary cap in England is totally scrapped, because at the moment it look's as though a French team will win the European cup and without the Celtic league to blame with how players are rested, they will start harping on how the French can spend what they like to get the best, and that is why they cannot win it.

Yup - its already been raised significantly despite the PRL supporters on there saying it wouldn't.

Even under the new salary cap English teams will still be allowed to spend less than the French salary cap and less than the big three Irish provinces actually spend. English teams are just playing catch up.

I can see it is difficult for Scottish teams and to a lesser extent Welsh ones to compete in money terms but if you insist on looking for villains, I suggest you look to France and Ireland who have been and continue to be the big spenders. You won't of course because you clearly have some sort of problem with English clubs.

Exiledinborders wrote:

TJ wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:It will not be long before the salary cap in England is totally scrapped, because at the moment it look's as though a French team will win the European cup and without the Celtic league to blame with how players are rested, they will start harping on how the French can spend what they like to get the best, and that is why they cannot win it.

Yup - its already been raised significantly despite the PRL supporters on there saying it wouldn't.

Even under the new salary cap English teams will still be allowed to spend less than the French salary cap and less than the big three Irish provinces actually spend.  English teams are just playing catch up.

I can see it is difficult for Scottish teams and to a lesser extent Welsh ones to compete in money terms but if you insist on looking for villains, I suggest you look to France and Ireland who have been and continue to be the big spenders. You won't of course because you clearly have some sort of problem with English clubs.

Yes, that's it you've got me, I realy have a problem with English clubs. There is a serious issue evolving on here with people bringing national identities into debates all the time, it needs to stop, if the salary cap is scrapped in England, it would cause half of the teams in the English league to struggle as well, this would not just be a problem for us Welsh it would be a problem for everybody, even though it just seems to be Welsh players being plucked away to other leagues more than any other nationality at this present time.

LordDowlais wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

TJ wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:It will not be long before the salary cap in England is totally scrapped, because at the moment it look's as though a French team will win the European cup and without the Celtic league to blame with how players are rested, they will start harping on how the French can spend what they like to get the best, and that is why they cannot win it.

Yup - its already been raised significantly despite the PRL supporters on there saying it wouldn't.

Even under the new salary cap English teams will still be allowed to spend less than the French salary cap and less than the big three Irish provinces actually spend.  English teams are just playing catch up.

I can see it is difficult for Scottish teams and to a lesser extent Welsh ones to compete in money terms but if you insist on looking for villains, I suggest you look to France and Ireland who have been and continue to be the big spenders. You won't of course because you clearly have some sort of problem with English clubs.

Yes, that's it you've got me, I realy have a problem with English clubs.  There is a serious issue evolving on here with people bringing national identities into debates all the time, it needs to stop, if the salary cap is scrapped in England, it would cause half of the teams in the English league to struggle as well, this would not just be a problem for us Welsh it would be a problem for everybody, even though it just seems to be Welsh players being plucked away to other leagues more than any other nationality at this present time.

Didn't he say that in reply to TJ?

Personally i don't think it's an issue that they have raised the cap, so long as they keep it at a level all teams in the AV can achieve.

nathan wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

TJ wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:It will not be long before the salary cap in England is totally scrapped, because at the moment it look's as though a French team will win the European cup and without the Celtic league to blame with how players are rested, they will start harping on how the French can spend what they like to get the best, and that is why they cannot win it.

Yup - its already been raised significantly despite the PRL supporters on there saying it wouldn't.

Even under the new salary cap English teams will still be allowed to spend less than the French salary cap and less than the big three Irish provinces actually spend.  English teams are just playing catch up.

I can see it is difficult for Scottish teams and to a lesser extent Welsh ones to compete in money terms but if you insist on looking for villains, I suggest you look to France and Ireland who have been and continue to be the big spenders. You won't of course because you clearly have some sort of problem with English clubs.

Yes, that's it you've got me, I realy have a problem with English clubs.  There is a serious issue evolving on here with people bringing national identities into debates all the time, it needs to stop, if the salary cap is scrapped in England, it would cause half of the teams in the English league to struggle as well, this would not just be a problem for us Welsh it would be a problem for everybody, even though it just seems to be Welsh players being plucked away to other leagues more than any other nationality at this present time.

Didn't he say that in reply to TJ?

Personally i don't think it's an issue that they have raised the cap, so long as they keep it at a level all teams in the AV can achieve.

OOooops Sorry if I have the wrong end of the stick, it's just that I was tarred and feathered on the English wingers thread on the international board, and on the BI Lions thread, I was even called a racist, i was only trying to have a larf, anyway, my apologies.

LordDowlais wrote:

nathan wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

TJ wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:It will not be long before the salary cap in England is totally scrapped, because at the moment it look's as though a French team will win the European cup and without the Celtic league to blame with how players are rested, they will start harping on how the French can spend what they like to get the best, and that is why they cannot win it.

Yup - its already been raised significantly despite the PRL supporters on there saying it wouldn't.

Even under the new salary cap English teams will still be allowed to spend less than the French salary cap and less than the big three Irish provinces actually spend.  English teams are just playing catch up.

I can see it is difficult for Scottish teams and to a lesser extent Welsh ones to compete in money terms but if you insist on looking for villains, I suggest you look to France and Ireland who have been and continue to be the big spenders. You won't of course because you clearly have some sort of problem with English clubs.

Yes, that's it you've got me, I realy have a problem with English clubs.  There is a serious issue evolving on here with people bringing national identities into debates all the time, it needs to stop, if the salary cap is scrapped in England, it would cause half of the teams in the English league to struggle as well, this would not just be a problem for us Welsh it would be a problem for everybody, even though it just seems to be Welsh players being plucked away to other leagues more than any other nationality at this present time.

Didn't he say that in reply to TJ?

Personally i don't think it's an issue that they have raised the cap, so long as they keep it at a level all teams in the AV can achieve.

OOooops Sorry if I have the wrong end of the stick, it's just that I was tarred and feathered on the English wingers thread on the international board, and on the BI Lions thread, I was even called a racist, i was only trying to have a larf, anyway, my apologies.

My point is that you talk about the English clubs raising the salary cap causing problems when they are no the leaders in the escalation of costs. The evidence is that this is caused mainly by the top French and Irish teams who pay substantially more than the top English teams. What do people want the English clubs to do? Presumably they are expected to permanently play against sides with larger and better squads.

Incidentally I was not accusing anyone of being a racist. I was suggesting that some people on these sites tend to blame the English clubs for all sorts of ills. In this case it is clearly the French and to a lesser extent Irish who are behind the cost inflation. Why then complain about the English clubs?

The salary cap in England is already at a level many teams cannnot match. The AP is heading down the road of the football premier league in England. Clubs calling the shots, only a small number of teams being able to spend their way to success, huge deficits every year that rely on hugely rich men to sustain them.

[quote="Exiledinborders"][quote="LordDowlais"][quote="nathan"]

LordDowlais wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

TJ wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:It will not be long before the salary cap in England is totally scrapped, because at the moment it look's as though a French team will win the European cup and without the Celtic league to blame with how players are rested, they will start harping on how the French can spend what they like to get the best, and that is why they cannot win it.

Yup - its already been raised significantly despite the PRL supporters on there saying it wouldn't.

Even under the new salary cap English teams will still be allowed to spend less than the French salary cap and less than the big three Irish provinces actually spend.  English teams are just playing catch up.

I can see it is difficult for Scottish teams and to a lesser extent Welsh ones to compete in money terms but if you insist on looking for villains, I suggest you look to France and Ireland who have been and continue to be the big spenders. You won't of course because you clearly have some sort of problem with English clubs.

Yes, that's it you've got me, I realy have a problem with English clubs.  There is a serious issue evolving on here with people bringing national identities into debates all the time, it needs to stop, if the salary cap is scrapped in England, it would cause half of the teams in the English league to struggle as well, this would not just be a problem for us Welsh it would be a problem for everybody, even though it just seems to be Welsh players being plucked away to other leagues more than any other nationality at this present time.

How does Ireland's spend on players affect you bearing in mind that there is a limit on non Irish qualified players here (4 per team) and most our players have to stay here if they want to play international rugby.

There are no English, Scottish, Italian or Scottish players playing in Ireland. Between the 4 teams we probably have only one player that English teams would be looking at (Ruan Pienaar).

Oh, and there must be 100s of ex-Ireland academy players playing in England and France, not to mention all the Irish coaching staff - all to benefit English & French rugby.

Sin é wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

nathan wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

TJ wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:It will not be long before the salary cap in England is totally scrapped, because at the moment it look's as though a French team will win the European cup and without the Celtic league to blame with how players are rested, they will start harping on how the French can spend what they like to get the best, and that is why they cannot win it.

Yup - its already been raised significantly despite the PRL supporters on there saying it wouldn't.

Even under the new salary cap English teams will still be allowed to spend less than the French salary cap and less than the big three Irish provinces actually spend.  English teams are just playing catch up.

I can see it is difficult for Scottish teams and to a lesser extent Welsh ones to compete in money terms but if you insist on looking for villains, I suggest you look to France and Ireland who have been and continue to be the big spenders. You won't of course because you clearly have some sort of problem with English clubs.

Yes, that's it you've got me, I realy have a problem with English clubs.  There is a serious issue evolving on here with people bringing national identities into debates all the time, it needs to stop, if the salary cap is scrapped in England, it would cause half of the teams in the English league to struggle as well, this would not just be a problem for us Welsh it would be a problem for everybody, even though it just seems to be Welsh players being plucked away to other leagues more than any other nationality at this present time.

How does Ireland's spend on players affect you bearing in mind that there is a limit on non Irish qualified players here (4 per team) and most our players have to stay here if they want to play international rugby.

There are no English, Scottish, Italian or Scottish players playing in Ireland. Between the 4 teams we probably have only one player that English teams would be looking at (Ruan Pienaar).

Oh, and there must be 100s of ex-Ireland academy players playing in England and France, not to mention all the Irish coaching staff - all to benefit English & French rugby.

Yes I am sure that no English teams would touch the three or four Springbok capped players playing in Ireland.

If Ireland having larger budgets than English teams does not affect English teams then logically English teams increasing their budgets to catch up cannot affect other countries' teams. However the moaning about English teams increasing their salary caps would indicate that others think it does.

As far as I am concerned I do not have a problem with French or Irish teams having bigger budgets. I was just suggesting that if bigger a budgets are a problem for the Scots and Welsh then they should direct their ire towards Ireland and France not England. If there is a problem it is not in England.

TJ wrote:The salary cap in England is already at a level many teams cannnot match.

I could also say the salary budgets of the big three Irish teams are at a level no other teams in the Pro12 can match.

There is some truth in your comment but the push for higher salaries has come from the big spenders in France and Ireland not England. The top English clubs are just playing catch up. I agree the increase puts poorer English clubs in a difficult position but the cost escalation is not coming from England whose top clubs will still be poor relations to the top French and Irish teams even when budgets are increased.

Exiledinborders wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

nathan wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

TJ wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:It will not be long before the salary cap in England is totally scrapped, because at the moment it look's as though a French team will win the European cup and without the Celtic league to blame with how players are rested, they will start harping on how the French can spend what they like to get the best, and that is why they cannot win it.

Yup - its already been raised significantly despite the PRL supporters on there saying it wouldn't.

Even under the new salary cap English teams will still be allowed to spend less than the French salary cap and less than the big three Irish provinces actually spend.  English teams are just playing catch up.

I can see it is difficult for Scottish teams and to a lesser extent Welsh ones to compete in money terms but if you insist on looking for villains, I suggest you look to France and Ireland who have been and continue to be the big spenders. You won't of course because you clearly have some sort of problem with English clubs.

Yes, that's it you've got me, I realy have a problem with English clubs.  There is a serious issue evolving on here with people bringing national identities into debates all the time, it needs to stop, if the salary cap is scrapped in England, it would cause half of the teams in the English league to struggle as well, this would not just be a problem for us Welsh it would be a problem for everybody, even though it just seems to be Welsh players being plucked away to other leagues more than any other nationality at this present time.

How does Ireland's spend on players affect you bearing in mind that there is a limit on non Irish qualified players here (4 per team) and most our players have to stay here if they want to play international rugby.

There are no English, Scottish, Italian or Scottish players playing in Ireland. Between the 4 teams we probably have only one player that English teams would be looking at (Ruan Pienaar).

Oh, and there must be 100s of ex-Ireland academy players playing in England and France, not to mention all the Irish coaching staff - all to benefit English & French rugby.

Yes I am sure that no English teams would touch the three or four Springbok capped players playing in Ireland.

If Ireland having larger budgets than English teams does not affect English teams then logically English teams increasing their budgets to catch up cannot affect other countries' teams. However the moaning about English teams increasing their salary caps would indicate that others think it does.

As far as I am concerned I do not have a problem with French or Irish teams having bigger budgets. I was just suggesting that if bigger a budgets are a problem for the Scots and Welsh then they should direct their ire towards Ireland and France not England. If there is a problem it is not in England.

Pretty much all the players that are now coming to play for the Irish Provinces are experienced 2nd tier players at the end of their careers whose main function is to provide cover for when the international teams are away for young players like CJ Stander who required a lot of work to get him to the stage he is at now.

You haven't a clue what budgets the Irish teams have anyway. You also don't know what their overheads are (for instance, the Provinces also organise the amateur games in the Provinces, providing referees and coaching for underage representative teams).

Sin é, your provinces seek out 'Project Players' (and cap them off the plane).

Cyril wrote:Sin é, your provinces seek out 'Project Players' (and cap them off the plane).

Nope. They have to wait 3 years to get capped and in the last 10 years I think 2 have been capped (Rickhard Straus 4 caps and has been living in Ireland for 5 years) and Robbie Diack (who has been in Ulster for about 6 years) has 1 cap.

The Big 3 are only allowed have 1 Project player (along with 3 non Irish qualified players).

Bent.

Exiledinborders wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

nathan wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

TJ wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:It will not be long before the salary cap in England is totally scrapped, because at the moment it look's as though a French team will win the European cup and without the Celtic league to blame with how players are rested, they will start harping on how the French can spend what they like to get the best, and that is why they cannot win it.

Yup - its already been raised significantly despite the PRL supporters on there saying it wouldn't.

Even under the new salary cap English teams will still be allowed to spend less than the French salary cap and less than the big three Irish provinces actually spend.  English teams are just playing catch up.

I can see it is difficult for Scottish teams and to a lesser extent Welsh ones to compete in money terms but if you insist on looking for villains, I suggest you look to France and Ireland who have been and continue to be the big spenders. You won't of course because you clearly have some sort of problem with English clubs.

Yes, that's it you've got me, I realy have a problem with English clubs.  There is a serious issue evolving on here with people bringing national identities into debates all the time, it needs to stop, if the salary cap is scrapped in England, it would cause half of the teams in the English league to struggle as well, this would not just be a problem for us Welsh it would be a problem for everybody, even though it just seems to be Welsh players being plucked away to other leagues more than any other nationality at this present time.

Didn't he say that in reply to TJ?

Personally i don't think it's an issue that they have raised the cap, so long as they keep it at a level all teams in the AV can achieve.

OOooops Sorry if I have the wrong end of the stick, it's just that I was tarred and feathered on the English wingers thread on the international board, and on the BI Lions thread, I was even called a racist, i was only trying to have a larf, anyway, my apologies.

My point is that you talk about the English clubs raising the salary cap causing problems when they are no the leaders in the escalation of costs. The evidence is that this is caused mainly by the top French and Irish teams who pay substantially more than the top English teams.  What do people want the English clubs to do? Presumably they are expected to permanently play against sides with larger and better squads.

Incidentally I was not accusing anyone of being a racist. I was suggesting that some people on these sites tend to blame the English clubs for all sorts of ills. In this case it is clearly the French and to a lesser extent Irish who are behind the cost inflation. Why then complain about the English clubs?

I am not saying that the English clubs are the cause of all the problems, but we all know the problem is in France, and the money they pay their players, what I am saying is, if the top end clubs in England can do this aswell us Welsh, and perhaps the rest of the Celts will be up shiote creek, we have already seen Bristol from the lower league taking half a dozen of our players, and they are not even an elite club in england.

LordDowlais wrote:
I am not saying that the English clubs are the cause of all the problems, but we all know the problem is in France, and the money they pay their players, what I am saying is, if the top end clubs in England can do this aswell us Welsh, and perhaps the rest of the Celts will be up shiote creek, we have already seen Bristol from the lower league taking half a dozen of our players, and they are not even an elite club in england.

English clubs should be better off than french ones with their new rules :
7 mil salary cap + 2 marquee players outside (imagine if it's dan carter) > 10 mil salary cap in France taking into account the different tax regime and other constraints (number of JIFF players in the squad, limits of games applied to french internationals etc).
wether or not the English dont have the spending power (yet) or do not know how to maximise it is a different matter though.
With regards of Bristol, can they become the new Toulon in a near future? the location does make it ideal to become the 5th Welsh province though.

Sin é wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

nathan wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

TJ wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:It will not be long before the salary cap in England is totally scrapped, because at the moment it look's as though a French team will win the European cup and without the Celtic league to blame with how players are rested, they will start harping on how the French can spend what they like to get the best, and that is why they cannot win it.

Yup - its already been raised significantly despite the PRL supporters on there saying it wouldn't.

Even under the new salary cap English teams will still be allowed to spend less than the French salary cap and less than the big three Irish provinces actually spend.  English teams are just playing catch up.

I can see it is difficult for Scottish teams and to a lesser extent Welsh ones to compete in money terms but if you insist on looking for villains, I suggest you look to France and Ireland who have been and continue to be the big spenders. You won't of course because you clearly have some sort of problem with English clubs.

Yes, that's it you've got me, I realy have a problem with English clubs.  There is a serious issue evolving on here with people bringing national identities into debates all the time, it needs to stop, if the salary cap is scrapped in England, it would cause half of the teams in the English league to struggle as well, this would not just be a problem for us Welsh it would be a problem for everybody, even though it just seems to be Welsh players being plucked away to other leagues more than any other nationality at this present time.

How does Ireland's spend on players affect you bearing in mind that there is a limit on non Irish qualified players here (4 per team) and most our players have to stay here if they want to play international rugby.

There are no English, Scottish, Italian or Scottish players playing in Ireland. Between the 4 teams we probably have only one player that English teams would be looking at (Ruan Pienaar).

Oh, and there must be 100s of ex-Ireland academy players playing in England and France, not to mention all the Irish coaching staff - all to benefit English & French rugby.

Yes I am sure that no English teams would touch the three or four Springbok capped players playing in Ireland.

If Ireland having larger budgets than English teams does not affect English teams then logically English teams increasing their budgets to catch up cannot affect other countries' teams. However the moaning about English teams increasing their salary caps would indicate that others think it does.

As far as I am concerned I do not have a problem with French or Irish teams having bigger budgets. I was just suggesting that if bigger a budgets are a problem for the Scots and Welsh then they should direct their ire towards Ireland and France not England. If there is a problem it is not in England.

Pretty much all the players that are now coming to play for the Irish Provinces are experienced 2nd tier players at the end of their careers whose main function is to provide cover for when the international teams are away for young players like CJ Stander who required a lot of work to get him to the stage he is at now.

You haven't a clue what budgets the Irish teams have anyway. You also don't know what their overheads are (for instance, the Provinces also organise the amateur games in the Provinces, providing referees and coaching for underage representative teams).

I forgot to mention the tax subsidy players get for playing in Ireland. At the end of their careers they can claim back 40% of the tax paid in their ten best years of playing in Ireland. Given the average career length now that means they get back pretty much 40% of all tax paid. In essence that is a subsidy of 16% of their wages from the state.

Exiledinborders wrote:

TJ wrote:The salary cap in England is already at a level many teams cannnot match.

I could also say the salary budgets of the big three Irish teams are at a level no other teams in the Pro12 can match.  

There is some truth in your comment but the push for higher salaries has come from the big spenders in France and Ireland not England. The top English clubs are just playing catch up. I agree the increase puts poorer English clubs in a difficult position but the cost escalation is not coming from England whose top clubs will still be poor relations to the top French and Irish teams even when budgets are increased.

I simply do not buy this at all - because the Irish teams do not buy up all our best players and I dbelieve the sums the irish have to spend are transparent and include things hidden or excluded in England - also the Irish do not run defici9t funding - and have no more to spend as a union than the SRU or WRU do they?

Provide any official information on how much the Irish teams spend on player salary and how much they benefit from central contracts. They you can say they're transparent. All I've ever seen is vague comments that they spend about as much as the English club cap (which means more as if it was less they would say so).

Yes - and some english clubs spend significantly more than the cap and the cap does not include all players or support staff. Basically the Irish do not distort the market and price other teams out of the market in the same way as the french and english do.

TJ wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

TJ wrote:The salary cap in England is already at a level many teams cannnot match.

I could also say the salary budgets of the big three Irish teams are at a level no other teams in the Pro12 can match.  

There is some truth in your comment but the push for higher salaries has come from the big spenders in France and Ireland not England. The top English clubs are just playing catch up. I agree the increase puts poorer English clubs in a difficult position but the cost escalation is not coming from England whose top clubs will still be poor relations to the top French and Irish teams even when budgets are increased.

I simply do not buy this at all - because the Irish teams do not buy up all our best players and I dbelieve the sums the irish have to spend are transparent and include things hidden or excluded in England - also the Irish do not run defici9t funding - and have no more to spend as a union than the SRU or WRU do they?

Who are all these top Scots playing in England. I wonder if you are thinking of players such as Ruaridh Jackson, Duncan Taylor and Jim Hamilton all of whom are English anyway? How dreadful of English clubs to play English players!

TJ wrote:Yes - and some english clubs spend significantly more than the cap and the cap does not include all players or support staff.  Basically the Irish do not distort the market and price other teams out of the market in the same way as the french and english do.

Firstly, what is your evidence that any English club breaks the cap?

Secondly, clearly a cap on players salary does not include other costs.

Unless the WRU hurry up and get these dual contracts sorted, in no particular order, these are the players I expect to see the French and top English clubs circling around like vultures:-

Dan Biggar
Justin Tuperic
Samson Lee
Liam Davies
Taulupe Faletau
Rhys Webb
Rhys Patchell


There will be more to go as well, of that I am sure.

First of all I would like to say its terrific that the Irish provinces are so strong and provide a good counterbalance to France (and maybe England). But I'd also add that Ireland has an interesting record as far as top level financing goes these days. Just ask Apple.

They are not the poor celtic cousins making fantastic teams out of dust.

Cyril wrote:Bent.

Irish grandmother (and his sister was/is living here).

Exiledinborders wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

nathan wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

TJ wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:It will not be long before the salary cap in England is totally scrapped, because at the moment it look's as though a French team will win the European cup and without the Celtic league to blame with how players are rested, they will start harping on how the French can spend what they like to get the best, and that is why they cannot win it.

Yup - its already been raised significantly despite the PRL supporters on there saying it wouldn't.

Even under the new salary cap English teams will still be allowed to spend less than the French salary cap and less than the big three Irish provinces actually spend.  English teams are just playing catch up.

I can see it is difficult for Scottish teams and to a lesser extent Welsh ones to compete in money terms but if you insist on looking for villains, I suggest you look to France and Ireland who have been and continue to be the big spenders. You won't of course because you clearly have some sort of problem with English clubs.

Yes, that's it you've got me, I realy have a problem with English clubs.  There is a serious issue evolving on here with people bringing national identities into debates all the time, it needs to stop, if the salary cap is scrapped in England, it would cause half of the teams in the English league to struggle as well, this would not just be a problem for us Welsh it would be a problem for everybody, even though it just seems to be Welsh players being plucked away to other leagues more than any other nationality at this present time.

How does Ireland's spend on players affect you bearing in mind that there is a limit on non Irish qualified players here (4 per team) and most our players have to stay here if they want to play international rugby.

There are no English, Scottish, Italian or Scottish players playing in Ireland. Between the 4 teams we probably have only one player that English teams would be looking at (Ruan Pienaar).

Oh, and there must be 100s of ex-Ireland academy players playing in England and France, not to mention all the Irish coaching staff - all to benefit English & French rugby.

Yes I am sure that no English teams would touch the three or four Springbok capped players playing in Ireland.

If Ireland having larger budgets than English teams does not affect English teams then logically English teams increasing their budgets to catch up cannot affect other countries' teams. However the moaning about English teams increasing their salary caps would indicate that others think it does.

As far as I am concerned I do not have a problem with French or Irish teams having bigger budgets. I was just suggesting that if bigger a budgets are a problem for the Scots and Welsh then they should direct their ire towards Ireland and France not England. If there is a problem it is not in England.

Pretty much all the players that are now coming to play for the Irish Provinces are experienced 2nd tier players at the end of their careers whose main function is to provide cover for when the international teams are away for young players like CJ Stander who required a lot of work to get him to the stage he is at now.

You haven't a clue what budgets the Irish teams have anyway. You also don't know what their overheads are (for instance, the Provinces also organise the amateur games in the Provinces, providing referees and coaching for underage representative teams).

I forgot to mention the tax subsidy players get for playing in Ireland. At the end of their careers they can claim back 40% of the tax paid in their ten best years of playing in Ireland. Given the average career length now that means they get back pretty much 40% of all tax paid.  In essence that is a subsidy of 16% of their wages from the state.

But Irish players would earn more in France and England than they would staying at home.

We all know the top clubs break the cap - and the difference between a salery cap and a playing budget should be obvious.  Its widely aknowledged and admitted come english clubs break the cap.

http://www.espn.co.uk/premiership-2012-13/rugby/story/177978.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2443627/Mark-Cueto-accuses-clubs-breaking-Premiership-salary-cap.html

amongst loads of otehr stories about this. Deffered tax payments, bonus paid in a different financial year - all sorts of ways it goes on

Cyril wrote:Bent.

Are you sure you know what a "project player" is?

lostinwales wrote:First of all I would like to say its terrific that the Irish provinces are so strong and provide a good counterbalance to France (and maybe England). But I'd also add that Ireland has an interesting record as far as top level financing goes these days. Just ask Apple.

They are not the poor celtic cousins making fantastic teams out of dust.

Em, the less tax Apple pays, the more it costs the Irish taxpayer.

Its like the way Ireland is subsidising world rugby with its sporting tax exemption. There would be less to go around for the 6Ns, IRB, Lions, PRO12 if these companies had to pay tax in Ireland.

6Ns Company's turnover is about 90m a year. Imagine they don't pay a penny tax to the Irish Government.

TJ wrote:We all know the top clubs break the cap - and the difference between a salery cap and a playing budget should be obvious.  Its widely aknowledged and admitted come english clubs break the cap.

http://www.espn.co.uk/premiership-2012-13/rugby/story/177978.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2443627/Mark-Cueto-accuses-clubs-breaking-Premiership-salary-cap.html

amongst loads of otehr stories about this.  Deffered tax payments, bonus paid in a  different financial year - all sorts of ways it goes on

So your evidence is a couple of accusations with absolutely no actual evidence at all. Funnily enough one of the accusations comes from the English champions. So from that I suppose we can assume that the strongest English team do not break the cap.

When you say "Its widely aknowledged and admitted some english clubs break the cap." Can you tell us which club has admitted breaking the cap? Of course none have. You have no evidence. Why? Because there is no evidence.

The facts are that the Irish teams have bigger budgets than the English clubs. As I have said before I have no problem with this. Just stop bleating on about the French and English having massive budgets when it it is clear that it is the French and Irish who are the big spenders with the Irish government chipping in with a tax subsidy to make the playing field even more uneven.

The facts are that the Irish teams have bigger budgets than the English clubs.

Interesting when above you claim there are no figures and the difference is between budgets and salery cap - the two are different

We all know the salary cap is fiddled by some of the clubs. As I said - its been proven with deferred payments, with tax being paid on salaries in a different tax year etc etc. Its all out there if you want to see it but you don't.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Cyril wrote:Bent.

Are you sure you know what a "project player" is?

Not the player. I was referring to how crooked the Irish set-up is

Cyril wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Cyril wrote:Bent.

Are you sure you know what a "project player" is?

Not the player. I was referring to how crooked the Irish set-up is

What was wrong with bringing over Bent (A guy who has played Super rugby with the Highlanders. Despite what people seem to think; this guy didn't just come out of nowhere.) given the crisis we had at TH?

He has turned out to be a very handy LH with Leinster and was part of a Leinster scrum that more than held their own against a Cardiff scrum containing both Jenkins and Jones. A good bit of scouting from the IRFU if you ask me

Interesting development on the 3rd tier comp (taken from another forum):

The Italian Union has decided to finance a third European Club Competition but no Romanian club was invited to take part. There will be 3 Italian clubs, and one each from Georgia, Russia, Germany, Portugal and the Netherlands (!). I guess the Italians have excluded Romanian clubs in order to be sure they will finally have a chance to win something, after the Bucharest Wolves have kicked Italian champions Calvisano out of the Challenge Cup.

As McCafferty says paying for lost time..


http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/oct/04/european-champions-cup-to-announce-sponsors