Anyone think the new pan european tournament looks a little... lopsided?

First topic message reminder :

Just had a look at the groups, and well it looks less like a representitive tournament than PRL/LNR invitational.

Now i'm not having a go, or have any vested interest, but surely so many games every year involving either 2 English teams or 2 french teams playing each other in the group stage detracts from the competition.

I prefer a tournament that has Europes and rugbys interest in mind, and like this tournament less now I know it's an elitist version of a once great spectacle.

What is wrong with allowing 2 Scottish teams, 2 Italian teams and maybe Spanish, Russian national representitives?

Oops! Sorry. I must have gone up the wrong corridor. I wanted to get to the Rugby section but obviously found the Financial Times....

...I'll back out quietly

SecretFly wrote:Oops!  Sorry.  I must have gone up the wrong corridor.  I wanted to get to the Rugby section but obviously found the Financial Times....

...I'll back out quietly

Not a chance you would find info like this in the (London) Financial Times - a common trait in all the British press when it comes to the New European Rugby Cup competition

That from the man who said a 5-nation HC was a done deal...

I prefer to listen to what people at the company say and wait for the final outcome than believe the twitterati.

quinsforever wrote:That from the man who said a 5-nation HC was a done deal...

I prefer to listen to what people at the company say and wait for the final outcome than believe the twitterati.

I don't know what he said there, but this time he is quoting what Midi Olympic are saying.

i meant you bud, not gavinmortimer

quinsforever wrote:i meant you bud, not gavinmortimer

I'm not sure I claimed they had actually signed it, Bud.

The plan is obviously for the Unions to bankrupt the LNR & PRL. Crafty devils making sure of their 20m STERLING.

But we were all promised gazillions of £ if we signed up. So the PRL and LNR have only themselves to blame for the false promises

That's what happens when you go "no. No. No. No. No. No. No." Looks at watch "No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No" looks at watch again. "no. No. No...yes"

As I said previously, I'd wait a little before before gloating. The PRL got what they wanted (a more even split in participation between the three leagues) and even if they make a small loss, it's nothing compared to the increase in the league TV deal. That alone was worth about as much as they got from Europe before so anything is a bonus. Not only that but any future increase in sponsorship will all go to the PRL and LNR.

Pro12 teams will get their guaranteed £20m. PRL/LNR are taking the risk by providing that guarantee, so you can bet their minds are very very focused on delivering. That's what it's all about. No more armchair ride for blazers and family. Real commercial pressure will deliver big improvements financially for everyone vs the previous incarnation

MOney does not equal happiness to all of us you know. All my criticisms remain valid even if you don't agree. One thing tho - its amusing to watch you guys squirm as the chickens come home to roost. This is only the first chicken - that the PRL flaks lied.

No-one lied

And you can't count the chickens til you've finished building the chicken-run

Please dont become as bad as the football fans arguing about money as much as the actual sport!

They're just looking for an excuse to have a pop at the winners of the HC struggle or "failing" or "lying". Before the results are even in.

We're not really arguing about the money per se. More a case of PRL are evil vs Blazers are incompetent, rehashed post HC

HammerofThunor wrote:That's what happens when you go "no. No. No. No. No. No. No." Looks at watch "No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No" looks at watch again. "no. No. No...yes"

As I said previously, I'd wait a little before before gloating. The PRL got what they wanted (a more even split in participation between the three leagues) and even if they make a small loss, it's nothing compared to the increase in the league TV deal. That alone was worth about as much as they got from Europe before so anything is a bonus. Not only that but any future increase in sponsorship will all go to the PRL and LNR.

The deals have been done for 4 years, so they are not going to change that much. PRL will need to hook a few sponsors to get close to 60m so that there is an even split between leagues. Don't forget Heineken's sponsorship has dropped from 10m to 4m and they have lost the Amlin sponsorship.

Sorry to break it to you but if they manage to get to 60m, the PRO12 get the first 5m and then is split between the leagues

This is one of the things I knew - the amounts of money the PRL mouthpieces were talking about were nonsense.  I was not gullible enough to believe them.

" Real commercial pressure will deliver big improvements financially for everyone vs the previous incarnation" Hows that working out for you at the moment?

Enough - guys you just will have to accpet a gentle dig or two when the PRLs nonsense is seen for what it is

It's be good when the Champions Cup and Challenge Cup have begun so we can actually enjoy the rugby rather than all this nonsense!

Results of the first leg of qualifying for the Challenge cup :
Rovigo 22-18 Tbilisi Caucasians
Bucharest Wolves 18-13 Calvisano

TJ wrote:MOney does not equal happiness to all of us you know.  All my criticisms remain valid even if you don't agree.  One thing tho - its amusing to watch you guys squirm as the chickens come home to roost.  This is only the first chicken - that the PRL flaks lied.

You are not Alex Salmond in disguise are you?

Having put up with two years of being told anybody English who says anything he disagrees with is a liar, I turned my attention back to rugby. What do I find? The same attitude. If they are English they are liars.

Get a grip.

Wray has been shown to be a liar. All this money we were all promised - well where is it? Nothing to do with the english - I didn't even mention them -I said PRL flaks / mouthpieces.

Sin é wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:That's what happens when you go "no. No. No. No. No. No. No." Looks at watch "No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No" looks at watch again. "no. No. No...yes"

As I said previously, I'd wait a little before before gloating. The PRL got what they wanted (a more even split in participation between the three leagues) and even if they make a small loss, it's nothing compared to the increase in the league TV deal. That alone was worth about as much as they got from Europe before so anything is a bonus. Not only that but any future increase in sponsorship will all go to the PRL and LNR.

The deals have been done for 4 years, so they are not going to change that much. PRL will need to hook a few sponsors to get close to 60m so that there is an even split between leagues. Don't forget Heineken's sponsorship has dropped from 10m to 4m and they have lost the Amlin sponsorship.

Sorry to break it to you but if they manage to get to 60m, the PRO12 get the first 5m and then is split between the leagues

Yes but it never was an even split was it? Previously if it got to 60M the Pro12 teams would have got more than 30M, now they get 20M. The PRL would have got less than 15M and now they would get 20M. Previously the PRL only got £9M. So now they only need To have a £34M payout (excluding expenses and performance payouts) to be better off. They will then be better off until it hits £47M payout, where they're £6.5M better off before the Pro12 start getting anymore. So they would have about 70% better off.

So I have no idea whether the PRL will be better off, that would depend on the performance payouts and expenses. But at least it will be on them. However, as I said, I'd be careful about gloating until the actual numbers of in. J

Can't understand how any Pro12 supporter would feel like "gloating"?

When you've been press-ganged into service on the lower decks of the good ship "ERC Cup", it doesn't make sense to hope Captain LNR and First Mate PRL keep hitting icebergs.

HammerofThunor wrote:

Sin é wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:That's what happens when you go "no. No. No. No. No. No. No." Looks at watch "No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No" looks at watch again. "no. No. No...yes"

As I said previously, I'd wait a little before before gloating. The PRL got what they wanted (a more even split in participation between the three leagues) and even if they make a small loss, it's nothing compared to the increase in the league TV deal. That alone was worth about as much as they got from Europe before so anything is a bonus. Not only that but any future increase in sponsorship will all go to the PRL and LNR.

The deals have been done for 4 years, so they are not going to change that much. PRL will need to hook a few sponsors to get close to 60m so that there is an even split between leagues. Don't forget Heineken's sponsorship has dropped from 10m to 4m and they have lost the Amlin sponsorship.

Sorry to break it to you but if they manage to get to 60m, the PRO12 get the first 5m and then is split between the leagues

Yes but it never was an even split was it? Previously if it got to 60M the Pro12 teams would have got more than 30M, now they get 20M. The PRL would have got less than 15M and now they would get 20M. Previously the PRL only got £9M. So now they only need To have a £34M payout (excluding expenses and performance payouts) to be better off. They will then be better off until it hits £47M payout, where they're £6.5M better off before the Pro12 start getting anymore. So they would have about 70% better off.

So I have no idea whether the PRL will be better off, that would depend on the performance payouts and expenses. But at least it will be on them. However, as I said, I'd be careful about gloating until the actual numbers of in. J

As far as I recall, the Unions had agreed to the new split in moneys. What was the problem was that the French wanted to shut down the ERC and move the competition to Switzerland under their sphere of control.

Its still a bit away from 60m and don't forget there are the running costs of the competition like new office in Switzerland, match officials, admin in Dublin etc. etc. Then they are going to have to start paying tax on their earnings in Switzerland (from what I see its about 12% in Neuchatal).

I think the ERC would have got an increase in income anyway from 4 years ago, so I don't think its accurate to do your comparisions on ERC deals agreed 4 years ago.

By the way, there are an awful lot of ifs and buts there in your calculations. The BT/Sky deal will not change for 4 years. Nor will Heineken's 4m.

The Great Aukster wrote:Can't understand how any Pro12 supporter would feel like "gloating"?

When you've been press-ganged into service on the lower decks of the good ship "ERC Cup", it doesn't make sense to hope Captain LNR and First Mate PRL keep hitting icebergs.

I'm still mad at the way the best rugby club competition has been destroyed by these chancers. Finances have not improved for anyone (and are unlikely for a couple of years), the whole organisation is a mess and we have to deal with our teams being on two pay tv stations.

The only ones benefiting from this are the tv companies.

My only bit of 'gloating' is to do with how smart the Unions were to get the 20m guarantee written into the agreement - it looks as if they knew what they were doing (or more like the PRL/LNR were a bit clueless really).

Look on the bright side even if you dont get as much money the set up qualification is now much better so the rugby will be better.

Can't see how that works,there will be fewer blowouts like Saracens v Connacht last year but there will also be fewer great upsets like Toulouse v Connacht last year.The comp still has plenty of average to poor sides in it and it'll still be between Ireland and France to find a winner.

Saracens will defo be in the shake up imo

What teams from France and England are in it, that would not have made it in previous years ?

kingjohn7 wrote:Saracens will defo be in the shake up imo

At the expense of who - Clermont or Munster?

LordDowlais wrote:What teams from France and England are in it, that would not have made it in previous years ?

A lot of the French teams may just not bother competing though (some of the English can as well!)

Pool games have got a lot more difficult with no minions to help teams that might have had a difficult pool to scrape into the QFs.

The Great Aukster wrote:Can't understand how any Pro12 supporter would feel like "gloating"?

When you've been press-ganged into service on the lower decks of the good ship "ERC Cup", it doesn't make sense to hope Captain LNR and First Mate PRL keep hitting icebergs.

schadenfreude is always amusing and its also amusing watching those die hard PRL supporters going thru contortions to try deny the disaster this has been. I agree with your basic sentiment - I don't hope they hit rocks - but I do giggle when they do.

Think the issue is too many people see this as an argument based around nationalities. Rugby wise whats the disaster it hasnt even kicked off yet?!

kingjohn7 wrote:Saracens will defo be in the shake up imo

They might make the knockout stages but they'll need a lot of luck to win it.They only scraped out of a very weak pool last year and then scraped through against Ulster despite having an extra man for 70 minutes.One very impressive performance at home to Clermont seems to have wiped all that from the memory of a lot of people.

Sin é wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:What teams from France and England are in it, that would not have made it in previous years ?

A lot of the French teams may just not bother competing though (some of the English can as well!)

Pool games have got a lot more difficult with no minions to help teams that might have had a difficult pool to scrape into the QFs.

Yes but these extra English and French teams, are they better than any of the Celtic/Italian teams they will be replacing ?

LordDowlais wrote:

Sin é wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:What teams from France and England are in it, that would not have made it in previous years ?

A lot of the French teams may just not bother competing though (some of the English can as well!)

Pool games have got a lot more difficult with no minions to help teams that might have had a difficult pool to scrape into the QFs.

Yes but these extra English and French teams, are they better than any of the Celtic/Italian teams they will be replacing ?

There are no extra English or French teams. It used to be 12 from Pro12 and six each from England and France. Now it is 7 from Rabo, 6 each from England and France plus one from play-offs between 7th best England and French and 8th and 9th placed Pro 12.

The change is that the poor teams from the bottom of the Pro12 will not be in the competition. There is a slight twist to this in that the Pro12 have chosen to ensure that one from each country qualifies. That means that one or two poor teams might qualify at the expense of better teams.

The relative quality of the leagues is hard to judge. My view is that the top few teams in each league are of similar quality. Toulon currently stand out though. Each league has some poor teams at the bottom. In England just a couple whereas in the Pro12 it is probably four or five. I do not watch enough Top14 to judge the bottom of their league.

Get it right dude.

It was 3 Irish. 3 Welsh. 2 Scottish. 2 Italian. (That's 10 so far) 6 English 6 French.

plus the winner of both comps (or another team from the country of the winners)

Leinster brought Connacht in 3 years in a row by winning 2 HCs and an Amlin, but only one other pro 12 team has won either comp in the last 6 years. (Cardiff in 2010)

so at no point did the whole pro 12 qualify.

Do the domestic cup winners in France and England qualify, or is it all on league position ?

LordDowlais wrote:Do the domestic cup winners in France and England qualify, or is it all on league position ?

I don't understand what you mean. Do you mean playoff winners? If so then they are always within the top 6 and so qualify anyway (top 4 in England) so it's irrelevant. Not heard any mention of the LV cup

LV cup - I believe there was an arrangement where an English winner of the LV would go ahead of the team placed 6th in the AP if they were placed lower.

There is no extra team for the English this year, Wasps were the 7th team and they would have qualified anyway as Saints won the Challenge Cup. There is one less team for the French as Stade Francais should have got in due to Toulon winning the European Cup. Then Edinburgh and Zebre would have qualified automatically and Blues would have got the third Welsh place above the Dragons.

So there are four teams missing out, Blues, Edinburgh, Zebre and Stade Francais.

lostinwales wrote:LV cup - I believe there was an arrangement where an English winner of the LV would go ahead of the team placed 6th in the AP if they were placed lower.

There was but that for the ERC competetions so I don't know if it continues (edit: in fact it doesn't as Exeter won it and they're not in the Champions Cup)

HammerofThunor wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Do the domestic cup winners in France and England qualify, or is it all on league position ?

I don't understand what you mean. Do you mean playoff winners? If so then they are always within the top 6 and so qualify anyway (top 4 in England) so it's irrelevant. Not heard any mention of the LV cup

I remember Leeds qualifying one year after they won the Powergen Cup (that's what I think it was called back then), when Phil Davies was in charge of them, and I am sure if an English team win the LV= cup then they qualify, and I thought that the winner of the French equivalent cup qualified as well, if this has all stopped, then what have the French and English achieved by demanding this new format, it looks as though all they have done is interfere with the Celtic league in the only way they could, and that was through qualification into Europe, I thought that the main aim was to get more teams in the HC, so what have they got that they did not have before ?

The LV cup thing was only linked to how the AP carved up their 6 standard places.

Revised playoff format:

http://www.epcrugby.com/eng/news/28940.php

BARRAGES QUALIFICATIFS POUR L'EUROPEAN RUGBY CHAMPIONS CUP 2015/2016

Samedi 23 mai 2015
Match 1: Aviva Premiership (club classé septième) - Guinness PRO12 (club classé huitième ou le club le mieux classé n'étant pas déjà qualifié selon les modalités du réglement)
Un tirage à pile ou face déterminera lequel des deux clubs jouera à domicile.

Samedi 30 mai 2015
Vainqueur du Match 1 - Top 14 (club classé septième)
Le vainqueur du Match 1 jouera à domicile.

Aviva v Pro12 (home advantage by flip of coin).
Winner v Top 14 club a week later with winner of draw between Aviva and Pro12 having home advantage.

Seems fair enough with French team only having 1 match to play.

edit: I note the Director General of the new organisation is French (formerly CEO of Clermont )

''le Directeur Général de l'EPCR, Jacques Pineau.''

Mmm odds of the 7th french team to win away from home... Very small. Might as well skip this game although it could well be Toulouse this time.

This simply makes an absoulute mockery of the cup. The French teams only has to win 1 game to qualify but the others have to win 2??

Just give it to the winners of the Amlin and stop this nonsense.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:This simply makes an absoulute mockery of the cup. The French teams only has to win 1 game to qualify but the others have to win 2??

Just give it to the winners of the Amlin and stop this nonsense.

Yet the French are always away. So the PRL/Pro12 teams could have two home games, and the French has one away game. It's better than it was, although does the Amlin winner even take the playoff place for their league?

Its going to be fun the season after the world cup fitting that game into the Aviva Premiership match schedule - it will probably be July by the time they get to play it.

So can anybody tell me what the point of the arguments over Europe was about in the first place ? The French and English clubs do not look to have gained anything from it.

LordDowlais wrote:So can anybody tell me what the point of the arguments over Europe was about in the first place ? The French and English clubs do not look to have gained anything from it.

Depends who you listen to. Some think it was either purely about money, or helped along by fear of the mighty Irish sides.

Part of it was about gaining the same control over their European competition as they have over their domestic competition (the teams involved work on the commercial deals and they jointly sort out the format with the union). Part of it was about strengthening the Challenge cup by making it more inclusive of the 6 nations. Part of it was an 'unfair' distrubution of funds between the teams involved, via the unions.

What the PRL have 'gained' is a larger proportion of the elite competition places. 'Better' teams to play against for the 2nd tier. Probably a larger share of the money, once it's all sorted. Directly say over the commercial aspects. A say on the running the committee that isn't due to RFU delegation, but a fundemental part of the argeement.

But it's all spin. Make up your own truth and run with it. That's the way we roll on here.

Very early on I do remember suggesting that the changes were liable to produce better quality euro matches for the bottom half of the AP (in the 2nd tier)