Anyone think the new pan european tournament looks a little... lopsided?

First topic message reminder :

Just had a look at the groups, and well it looks less like a representitive tournament than PRL/LNR invitational.

Now i'm not having a go, or have any vested interest, but surely so many games every year involving either 2 English teams or 2 french teams playing each other in the group stage detracts from the competition.

I prefer a tournament that has Europes and rugbys interest in mind, and like this tournament less now I know it's an elitist version of a once great spectacle.

What is wrong with allowing 2 Scottish teams, 2 Italian teams and maybe Spanish, Russian national representitives?

This will all start to go jubblies up when the PRL are demanding that the salary cap needs to be scrapped as their teams cannot compete with the French, and trust me, this will happen.

HammerofThunor wrote:PRL have ruined their team?? Lots of young English player getting game time, union control over 32(64) players. Same release periods as everyone else uses. Additional rest periods. England in the top couple for the last few years...that's them ruined? What the hell did Andy Robinson do to them then?

It all looks rosy now but the increase to 2 players exempt from the salary cap is the start of a downward spiral.Most clubs will use this exemption on big money signings for the most important positions,TH and flyhalf.Just look to France to see the future of the English game,is there more than 2 flyhalves startinf for a Top 14 club?

Like I said I don't expect the effects to be seen for a few years but by 2020 it'll be plain as day.

Priorities in place from Cian Healy

SecretFly wrote:

Lowlandbrit wrote:

SecretFly wrote:So let's revise your point one more time:  
England (English centric rugby for the betterment of English rugby: ie PRL/RFU) six automatic places regardless of ability merit.
France (FFR/LNR) six automatic places regardless of ability merit,
The other four Celtic eejit Nations, one singular automatic entry each.

Which brings us back to the circular problem that 'the other four Celtic eejit Nations' decided they only had enough decent pro teams between them for one league (which doesn't lack for automatic places).

Are you in Britain any less a Nation than China with their few billion in population?

The 'nation' of China is made up of about 48 or 49 nationalities.

LordDowlais wrote:This will all start to go jubblies up when the PRL are demanding that the salary cap needs to be scrapped as their teams cannot compete with the French, and trust me, this will happen.

Midi Olympic reporting today that Top 14 want to increase their salary cap (in response to English rise).

Also, Top 14 Final will not be in Twickers now, they are going to Barcelona.

Sin é wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:This will all start to go jubblies up when the PRL are demanding that the salary cap needs to be scrapped as their teams cannot compete with the French, and trust me, this will happen.

Midi Olympic reporting today that Top 14 want to increase their salary cap (in response to English rise).

Also, Top 14 Final will not be in Twickers now, they are going to Barcelona.

And so it begins.

Google Hangouts & Youtube are additional sponsors to Heineken.

Google has signed a deal to host European club rugby's first online question and answer sessions between supporters and top stars.


Google Hangouts, already popular in Premier League football, will be launched for the first time in this term's new-look European competitions.

YouTube has also secured rights to online highlights from European Rugby Champions Cup and Challenge Cup action.

Organisers European Professional Club Rugby (EPCR) confirmed Heineken as the first of five planned main commercial partners at Monday's official tournament launch in Dublin.

Tournament bosses have already admitted the successor to the Heineken Cup will kick off later this month without all its five planned sponsors in place.

"Not all (sponsors) will be on board by this season's tournament launch, but it is essential to the vision for EPCR that it partners with multinational brands which share its long-term vision for the success of European club rugby," said Premiership Rugby chief executive Mark McCafferty last month.

New governing body EPCR hopes tying down Heineken and adding YouTube and Google as secondary partners will at least soften the blow of entering match action without all planned deals completed.

The French and Italian broadcast rights deals have also finally been ratified, which could pave the way for further sponsors to commit to backing the new-look knockout competitions.

Tournament chiefs were also finally able to unveil new trophies at Monday's launch, with Gilbert supplying match balls and Canterbury kit for the officials.

The shared British broadcast rights deal between BT Sport and Sky Sports has yielded record revenue, underpinning the new tournament's financial footing.

---

That explains why the launch is in Dublin today (Convention Centre) across the road from Google's European HQ.

TJ wrote:England does not merit 6 sides in the european cup.

Which PRO12 sides not in the Champions Cup do you think were better over the whole of last season than the English sides that qualified?

Connacht
Zebre
Edinburgh
Cardiff Blues
Newport Gwent Dragons


Saracens
Northampton Saints
Leicester Tigers
Harlequins
Bath
Sale Sharks
Wasps (play-off winners against Stade Francais)


The English sides that didn't qualify were:

Exeter Chiefs
Gloucester
London Irish
Newcastle Falcons
London Welsh (promoted)

EPCR Vice Chairman blames delay in signing French TV deal for lack of sponsors.

http://thescore.thejournal.ie/eocr-champions-cup-sponsors-commercial-1709236-Oct2014/?utm_source=facebook_short

markb wrote:

TJ wrote:England does not merit 6 sides in the european cup.

Look at the recent winners / runners up - few English teams get to that level therefore by the logic that was used to reduce the pro 12 representation then england deserves the same amount of teams as Ireland.  6 places as of right is not on merit.  I didn't say pro 12 teams shjould have been in instead - I merely pointed out that the meritocratic argument is nonsense.

Of your list - sale and wasps would be the no hopers. How many ap teams won their groups last year?

Also by cutting my quote you change the meaning.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Special treatment in the sense that there are 3 leagues involved which should be treated the same.

Nope - its 6 unions that should be treated the same. Remember the HC started before the pro 12. the structure of the pro 12 was in part decided to fit in with the HC

Except of course that the argument about meritocracy isn't the winners only is it? Otherwise there would only be a handful of teams in the competition at all. Toulon, Saracens, Clermont and Leinster. Maybe add in Saints and Ulster depending on how far back you go.

No, it's about the bottom four. The English teams tend to fill the middle of the pile. So they may well be bottom of the current crop but generally if any English team is bottom of their pool they're not there later on.

Otherwise, it's the equivalent of saying that if the Premiership was reduced to 10 teams Bath should be relegated on meritocratic basis because they haven't won the Premiership. Over, say Welsh or Falcons who generally are at the bottom.

If anyone tried to make that argument for meritocracy reasons then they'43 an idiot.

Oh, and cheers sin e for the info. Good work keeping it up to date. Sounds like things are starting to come together. Thanks to those guys at ERC

HammerofThunor wrote:Except of course that the argument about meritocracy isn't the winners only is it? Otherwise there would only be a handful of teams in the competition at all. Toulon, Saracens, Clermont and Leinster. Maybe add in Saints and Ulster depending on how far back you go.

No, it's about the bottom four. The English teams tend to fill the middle of the pile. So they may well be bottom of the current crop but generally if any English team is bottom of their pool they're not there later on.

Otherwise, it's the equivalent of saying that if the Premiership was reduced to 10 teams Bath should be relegated on meritocratic basis because they haven't won the Premiership. Over, say Welsh or Falcons who generally are at the bottom.

If anyone tried to make that argument for meritocracy reasons then they'43 an idiot.

I am glad you finally seem to be coming round to understand that the meritocracy argument is totally bogus. Given results and placings over the last few years in a meritocracy england would have the same number of entrants as Ireland. No matter how you crunch the numbers ireland have had more winners, similar number of finalists, a higher % of teams getting to the latter stages, a higher % of their teams winning pools.

Hammer - want to crunch the numbers looking at say semifinalist - each countries number of semifinalists as a % of their entrants? that would show where the merit is surely - do it for countries and leagues if you want.

In last year's HC, 5 PRL teams finished second in group, and 1 third. Therefore in a 12 team competition, PRL merits, on last year's performance, 5 places. In an 18 team competition, 6 places.

2 of last year's PRL teams have been replaced in the Champions Cup by teams proven, through the course of a domestic season, to be better.

If you're considering merit to be only semifinalists, then there would be no Welsh teams, no Italians and about 1/3rd of a Scottish team.

This started because TJ suggested that England do not deserve six teams.

He seems to base this on Pro12 success in winning in previous seasons but this makes no sense. No one questions that the Pro12 should have representation or that they have some excellent teams.  The teams that do not deserve to be in the competition are not those who fail to win the competition otherwise only one team can be said to merit its place. Those who have proven themselves not good enough are those which finish bottom of their group.

In 2013-14 two Italian, two French, one Scottish and one Welsh team finish fourth or four Pro12 and two Top 14.

In 2012-13 two Italian, two Scottish, one Welsh and one English or five Pro12 and one AP team.

In 2011-12 Two Italian, one Irish, two French and one English or three Pro 12, one AP and two Top14.

So over three seasons the bottom places were:
Pro 12 - 12 teams
Top 14 - 4 teams
AP - 2 teams

So the Pro12 are the league which least merited their number of places in the HC. The AP was the league who most merited their places.

Exiledinborders wrote:This started because TJ suggested that England do not deserve six teams.

..............

No I did not.  Try reading what I wrote.  I said IF it were meritocracy THEN england would deserve the same number of places as the Irish. I did not base this on winners

It is so funny watching the PRL apologists contorting logic and changing their stories.

If you want to number crunch then it has to be done as as % of countries entrants - as Ireland had 1/2 the entrants of England.

Oh - and deserve?  I thought this was about MERIT

go on chaps - keep twirling around.  Try to explain why England MERIT 6 times as many entrants as Ireland despite a poorer AVERAGE team performance.

Yo do realise I am laughing at you don't you?

You do realise that the introduction of "meritocracy" into this dispute was yours, and you seem to be the only person championing its cause, whist simultaneously argiuing against it. It's not a meritocracy - the presence of Treviso confirms that.

It's an approximation to select the best 20 teams in Western Europe through the medium of most recent "domestic" league form, with a nod to national representation. Early season form of the likes of Leinster, Toulouse and Leicester sheds doubt upon the selection procedure, but there's time yet and proof will be in the actual competition.

I still don't understand your MERIT argument though. Are you considering the Irish to be Irish or to be Pro12 when talking about percentage success? If they're Irish, how much MERIT do the Welsh, Italian and Scottish have, and how many teams should they have in an hypothetical MERITOCRACY. How many teams would be in this competition?

Edit. Apologies TJ, just re-read and saw that "meritocratic" was overwritten on your "devalued" in previous post. Mea Culpa.

TJ wrote:No I did not.  Try reading what I wrote.  I said IF it were meritocracy THEN england would deserve the same number of places as the Irish.  I did not base this on winners  

Except the problem there isn't the PRL or ERC or whatever, it's the PRO12. If you think Ireland merit four auto places because of their results, they have enough spots to make that happen and tell the rest to fight it out amongst themselves for the other spots until they improve. They agreed to set it up this way.

TJ wrote:Hammer - want to crunch the numbers looking at say semifinalist - each countries number of semifinalists as a % of their entrants?  that would show where the merit is surely - do it for countries and leagues if you want.

Why semi finalists? If you do relegation you look at the bottom not the top (a point I tried to make before which has completely passed you by).

I would have so the 'automatic' qualification from the leagues changed with performance. So something like the mean number of points scored in the pools, with an extra 4 points for each knock out game won. Maybe over 4 years so that one off years don't mess with it. The weighted means are then used to determine he numbers from each.

Ta Dubbelyew L Overate

all I am doing is pointing out a couple of things.

1 Demolishing the argument made by the PRL apologists that this new set up is based on merit. It clearly is not ( as you accept)

2) enjoying twisting the melons of the die hard PRL fans by pointing out the logical fallacies in their arguments

3) having a laugh at those who keep changing their tune everytime I do do the above.

The real debate is done with. the competition is badly devalued and spoilt by the changes all thats left for me is to poke fun at the ridiculous claims some folk have made.

TJ wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:This started because TJ suggested that England do not deserve six teams.

..............

No I did not.  Try reading what I wrote.  I said IF it were meritocracy THEN england would deserve the same number of places as the Irish.  I did not base this on winners  

It is so funny watching the PRL apologists contorting logic and changing their stories.

This what you wrote.

TJ wrote:NOpe - just stop pretending this is about merit. England does not merit 6 sides in the european cup.

What was that about changing stories?

TJ wrote:Ta  Dubbelyew L Overate

all I am doing is pointing out a couple of things.

1 Demolishing the argument made by the PRL apologists that this new set up is based on merit. It clearly is not ( as you accept)
2) enjoying twisting the melons of the die hard PRL fans by pointing out the logical fallacies in their arguments

3) having a laugh at those who keep changing their tune everytime I do do the above.

The real debate is done with.  the competition is badly devalued and spoilt by the changes  all thats left for me is to poke fun at the ridiculous claims some folk have made.

I don't accept that the new setup is not based on merit - you're putting words into my fingers. The new setup is based on a closer approximation of merit than the old system. I don't understand your "semifinalist" and "percentages" definition of merit - surely the the best approximation of the best 20 teams in a 20 team tournament is on merit?

The selection of a fixed number of teams from each league worries me a tad, but not enough to keep me up at nights. The forecast of some posters of the immediate and irrevocable decline of Italian and Scottish teams, followed by the Welsh and Irish (ring any bells?) would lead to the inevitable conclusion of their MERITOCRATIC replacement by Georgian, Romanian or Russian teams. Would 7 automatic places be justified?

PS I'm twisting melons

TJ wrote:The real debate is done with.  the competition is badly devalued and spoilt by the changes  all thats left for me is to poke fun at the ridiculous claims some folk have made.

You must have thought the original competition was pretty bad then as, in real terms and in regard to who qualifies, it's only fairly minor tweaking.

Good to see you admit that you're only here for the wind-up though

Meh.


There are two groups of idiots.

Those who believe the old tournament was perfect and fair for all in every single way.

and

Those who believe the new tournament will be perfect.

LondonTiger wrote:Meh.


There are two groups of idiots.

Those who believe the old tournament was perfect and fair for all in every single way.

and

Those who believe the new tournament will be perfect.

Unfortunately there are many more groups of idiots than those two (and I think they must be pretty darn small groups, if any exist at all).

i will add that I really don't give a flying feic about the Champions Cup this year - it's all about the Challenge Cup, and I really don't think anyone can deny that the broadening of the competition won't improve it.

Call me crazy, but I'm looking forward to both.

Crazy

Thought so

I feel sorry for the posters that were so vehmently insistent and desperate that the PRL would lose out or be excluded in Europe for seeking a new, more just and better run set of competitions.  Some of them are clearly struggling with the fact that there is no aspect of their position that might offer them a semblance of saving face, and in loitering in their illconceived arguments merely continuing to prove how little they understand what the more knowledgeable or not blindly partisan could always see would be the rightful end result.

The rest of us can at least take comfort in the imminent reality of a top tier competition better representing the 20 best teams in Europe, with the lower half of the top 3 European leagues competing more at their level in a 2nd tier, and more equal entrant pay ascribed for each side from those leagues. But please remember to allow the less conscientious the emotional and physical space on this forum to work through their devised demons and grow as people and rugby supporters.

splenetic wrote:I feel sorry for the posters that were so vehmently insistent and desperate that the PRL would lose out or be excluded in Europe for seeking a new, more just and better run set of competitions.  Some of them are clearly struggling with the fact that there is no aspect of their position that might offer them a semblance of saving face, and in loitering in their illconceived arguments merely continuing to prove how little they understand what the more knowledgeable or not blindly partisan could always see would be the rightful end result.

The rest of us can at least take comfort in the imminent reality of a top tier competition better representing the 20 best teams in Europe, with the lower half of the top 3 European leagues competing more at their level in a 2nd tier, and more equal entrant pay ascribed for each side from those leagues. But please remember to allow the less conscientious the emotional and physical space on this forum to work through their devised demons and grow as people and rugby supporters.

and a bit of sanity.

Top post splenetic

splenetic wrote:I feel sorry for the posters that were so vehmently insistent and desperate that the PRL would lose out or be excluded in Europe for seeking a new, more just and better run set of competitions.  Some of them are clearly struggling with the fact that there is no aspect of their position that might offer them a semblance of saving face, and in loitering in their illconceived arguments merely continuing to prove how little they understand what the more knowledgeable or not blindly partisan could always see would be the rightful end result.

The rest of us can at least take comfort in the imminent reality of a top tier competition better representing the 20 best teams in Europe, with the lower half of the top 3 European leagues competing more at their level in a 2nd tier, and more equal entrant pay ascribed for each side from those leagues. But please remember to allow the less conscientious the emotional and physical space on this forum to work through their devised demons and grow as people and rugby supporters.

splenetic - the end never justifies the means. That PRL shower of Poopie destroyed the best competition in world rugby and all this nonsense about meritocracy etc. will never make this competition into a silk purse from that beginnings of a sow's ear.

This launch of Heineken as sponsors will certainly have sponsors queing up to throw money at this competition

https://i.servimg.com/u/f39/16/53/77/41/heinek10.jpg


and now they are backtracking already ......

That EPCR will base themselves in Neuchâtel, Switzerland from next season, rather than in Dublin where the ERC have traditionally been located, makes any individual moves from the ERC into EPRC extremely complicated.

“I’m very conscious of that scenario,” said McNaughton. “Unfortunately when the agreement was done, compromises were made and agreements were done by all of the nine stakeholders in relation to the commercial elements and also in relation to the location.

I think everyone is well aware that everyone is trying to organise this as sympathetically as possible. Everyone is super conscious of the effect it’s having on staff, and more so because they’ve done a fantastic job over the last 19 years.

“So of course we have [sympathy], but our job now as the current board and executive committee is to really execute what was agreed by all of the stakeholders. And we’re going to try to do that as well as possible, and take on the concerns and situations of the ERC employees.

“The vast majority of the jobs that will be created in Switzerland have been offered to all existing staff. Depending on people’s circumstances, we don’t know what take up is going to be.”

How can McCafferty, Craig & Co looking at themselves in the mirror after how they destroyed the ERC with their slanderous comments?

and Sin é continues to pray for failure from his sordid little grief-hole.

splenetic wrote:I feel sorry for the posters that were so vehmently insistent and desperate that the PRL would lose out or be excluded in Europe for seeking a new, more just and better run set of competitions.  Some of them are clearly struggling with the fact that there is no aspect of their position that might offer them a semblance of saving face, and in loitering in their illconceived arguments merely continuing to prove how little they understand what the more knowledgeable or not blindly partisan could always see would be the rightful end result.

The rest of us can at least take comfort in the imminent reality of a top tier competition better representing the 20 best teams in Europe, with the lower half of the top 3 European leagues competing more at their level in a 2nd tier, and more equal entrant pay ascribed for each side from those leagues. But please remember to allow the less conscientious the emotional and physical space on this forum to work through their devised demons and grow as people and rugby supporters.

Sounds good. Must be PRL Premium Bond Letter Paper it was written on. Oh that's ever so velvety and lovely feelish under a nice pen.

Cyril wrote:and Sin é continues to pray for failure from his sordid little grief-hole.

.... 800 years Cyril, we never give up ....

It's a bit sad though that you invest so much emotional energy into hoping the new tournaments fail rather than getting behind the biggest 'club' tournaments in Europe in a sport you claim to love.

Cyril wrote:It's a bit sad though that you invest so much emotional energy into hoping the new tournaments fail rather than getting behind the biggest 'club' tournaments in Europe in a sport you claim to love.

I'm not hoping the competition fails (we need it), but that doesn't mean that those lying PRL prats deserve any respect for what they have done.

Where have I been making claims to love any sport?

Sin é wrote:

Cyril wrote:It's a bit sad though that you invest so much emotional energy into hoping the new tournaments fail rather than getting behind the biggest 'club' tournaments in Europe in a sport you claim to love.

I'm not hoping the competition fails (we need it), but that doesn't mean that those lying PRL prats deserve any respect for what they have done.

Where have I been making claims to love any sport?

Fair enough, I just assumed.

The thing for me is this, it will always be the HC, no matter how you dress it, what I cannot fathom though is what the PRL were hoping to achieve, and what HAVE they achieved ? If it was the only way they could meddle with the Celtic league, then they have done it, but what else have they gained, I cannot see any clubs outside of France winning it again, so what will be the excuse next time ? I think this is just the start for the PRL, they obviously have an agenda, the next grizzle will be the salary cap, trust me it is coming.

Cyril wrote:It's a bit sad though that you invest so much emotional energy into hoping the new tournaments fail rather than getting behind the biggest 'club' tournaments in Europe in a sport you claim to love.

He shares that grinding and bitter lack of enthusiasm with McCaff.  You know him?  The guy who didn't have a good word to say about a competition, or the participants in that competion, for a full year or more of belly aching the line: "we ain't being treated right!".  

Well, he's been treated right now, ain't he.  You invent your own rules and you gotta be satisfied  

So it's the turn of others now to take up his heroic mantle and carry on the good fight of: "we ain't being treated right!".  And nope, it's not going to go away, Cyril.  Again another threat that McCaff kept repeating:  We're not going to quietly go away, he warned folks - we want our demands.  Don't think yis can bury your heads in the sand and hope our demands die out.  

So no - McCaff broke the peace because he wasn't happy with his slice of pie.  That peace is broken - the cat is out of the bag.  England started with no presence in HC at all, entered it with 3 sides and worked themselves up to 6 over time. And still they never seem to "get behind the biggest [club and Union] tournaments in Europe".  There is always some other niggle that makes them want a bigger slice of pie - for fairnesse's sake of course    

Indeed, I'm certain that the next change in structure down the line will be the result of English disgruntlement with the 'structure' yet again.  "Oh yeah?", yawn, "What is it this time?  Too many sides with the letters "STER" in the competition now?  Oh my, we gotta change that for the folks in TV-aerial chimney-pot Land."

Grumble, grumble, moan, moan.

Looking forward to the tournaments starting to drown out all this bleating!

Cyril wrote:Grumble, grumble, moan, moan.

Looking forward to the tournaments starting to drown out all this bleating!

You got no answer for it, Cyril, have you? Nope, you know the moral (as distinct from 'merit') argument was lost on this one long ago. So the best deal is to do the 'grumble, grumble, moan, moan - get behind the bright new thing, why don't you!!!' put-down.
Nope. It's not going away. We've learned from McCaff that moaning tirelessly about unfairness gets things done. Let the Moaning last a Thousand Years. Everytime you tune into 606 radio - the sound of moaning static...that's the future

Nice to see the shouty thread still going strong

SecretFly wrote:

Cyril wrote:Grumble, grumble, moan, moan.

Looking forward to the tournaments starting to drown out all this bleating!

You got no answer for it, Cyril, have you?  Nope, you know the moral (as distinct from 'merit') argument was lost on this one long ago.  So the best deal is to do the 'grumble, grumble, moan, moan - get behind the bright new thing, why don't you!!!' put-down.  
Nope.  It's not going away.  We've learned from McCaff that moaning tirelessly about unfairness gets things done.  Let the Moaning last a Thousand Years.  Everytime you tune into 606 radio - the sound of moaning static...that's the future

it's like the rugby version of tinnitus. I'm going to have to turn up the BT Sport commentary to drown you out.

Shush anyway... I'm now onto a different subject over on a different threat - the Battle between Mumbles and Swansea. Looks like it could be a good'un.

I see the PRL are getting their nose in the trough fairly quickly:

IrishTImes wrote:
Among the regular leaks to one English newspaper has been the revelation that Simon Halliday, the former England centre and cricket player, is to take over from ERC’s Jean-Pierre Lux as the new organisation’s chairman. Although McNaughton stressed this would be a non-executive position and initially a busy part-time role, rather than full-time, he could neither confirm nor deny rumours that the chairman’s salary will be in the region of €150,000-€200,000 as opposed to the more modest payment to Monsieur Lux.