Anyone think the new pan european tournament looks a little... lopsided?

First topic message reminder :

Just had a look at the groups, and well it looks less like a representitive tournament than PRL/LNR invitational.

Now i'm not having a go, or have any vested interest, but surely so many games every year involving either 2 English teams or 2 french teams playing each other in the group stage detracts from the competition.

I prefer a tournament that has Europes and rugbys interest in mind, and like this tournament less now I know it's an elitist version of a once great spectacle.

What is wrong with allowing 2 Scottish teams, 2 Italian teams and maybe Spanish, Russian national representitives?

Sin é wrote:I see the PRL are getting their nose in the trough fairly quickly:

IrishTImes wrote:
Among the regular leaks to one English newspaper has been the revelation that Simon Halliday, the former England centre and cricket player, is to take over from ERC’s Jean-Pierre Lux as the new organisation’s chairman. Although McNaughton stressed this would be a non-executive position and initially a busy part-time role, rather than full-time, he could neither confirm nor deny rumours that the chairman’s salary will be in the region of €150,000-€200,000 as opposed to the more modest payment to Monsieur Lux.

It's Chimney pot money, sin.  Don't knock it til you try it.  If money's abowth, splash it all over, as ol 'enry used to say.

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:I see the PRL are getting their nose in the trough fairly quickly:

IrishTImes wrote:
Among the regular leaks to one English newspaper has been the revelation that Simon Halliday, the former England centre and cricket player, is to take over from ERC’s Jean-Pierre Lux as the new organisation’s chairman. Although McNaughton stressed this would be a non-executive position and initially a busy part-time role, rather than full-time, he could neither confirm nor deny rumours that the chairman’s salary will be in the region of €150,000-€200,000 as opposed to the more modest payment to Monsieur Lux.

It's Chimney pot money, sin.  Don't knock it til you try it.  If money's abowth, splash it all over, as ol 'enry used to say.

Heineken are getting a great deal out of this - they now sponsor both competitions for half of what they were paying 4 years ago

Its just laughable that with the strength of England's economy, they couldn't comp up with ONE sponsor.

I refer the 'honourable' poster to the answer Splenetic gave some time ago.

'But please remember to allow the less conscientious the emotional and physical space on this forum to work through their devised demons and grow as people and rugby supporters.'

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:I refer the 'honourable' poster to the answer Splenetic gave some time ago.

'But please remember to allow the less conscientious the emotional and physical space on this forum to work through their devised demons and grow as people and rugby supporters.'

You'll need to give me a splenectomy before I'll let up on this lot of spivs.

LordDowlais wrote:The thing for me is this, it will always be the HC, no matter how you dress it, what I cannot fathom though is what the PRL were hoping to achieve, and what HAVE they achieved ? If it was the only way they could meddle with the Celtic league, then they have done it, but what else have they gained, I cannot see any clubs outside of France winning it again, so what will be the excuse next time ? I think this is just the start for the PRL, they obviously have an agenda, the next grizzle will be the salary cap, trust me it is coming.

You do know they set the salary cap themselves don't you?

HammerofThunor wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:The thing for me is this, it will always be the HC, no matter how you dress it, what I cannot fathom though is what the PRL were hoping to achieve, and what HAVE they achieved ? If it was the only way they could meddle with the Celtic league, then they have done it, but what else have they gained, I cannot see any clubs outside of France winning it again, so what will be the excuse next time ? I think this is just the start for the PRL, they obviously have an agenda, the next grizzle will be the salary cap, trust me it is coming.

You do know they set the salary cap themselves don't you?

Yes I do, but there will come a time when they want it scrapped altogether, look it is no secret that the half a dozen elite clubs in England find the salary cap a hindrance, we can all see that over the next few seasons the winners of the HC will most likely come from France, the elite English clubs, through the mouthpiece of the PRL will be going on how they are handicapped by the fact that the salary cap is holding them back thus they cannot compete with the Toulons and Racing Metro's of this world, it is a non stop power battle, I have had to whiteness just this season, a club in the second tier of English rugby offering more to Welsh players than our regions can, I am not saying this lightly, there are people on here who are staunch supporters of the PRL, that's up to them, but beware, the power battle has only just started, the English club game will end up like the French model and before long the national team will end up like the same as the French as well, I have already seen talk of a Samoan RL player Ben Te'o being eyed up by England, this is all going to end in tears for everyone except the supporter and owners of the Elite European clubs.

LordDowlais wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:The thing for me is this, it will always be the HC, no matter how you dress it, what I cannot fathom though is what the PRL were hoping to achieve, and what HAVE they achieved ? If it was the only way they could meddle with the Celtic league, then they have done it, but what else have they gained, I cannot see any clubs outside of France winning it again, so what will be the excuse next time ? I think this is just the start for the PRL, they obviously have an agenda, the next grizzle will be the salary cap, trust me it is coming.

You do know they set the salary cap themselves don't you?

Yes I do, but there will come a time when they want it scrapped altogether, look it is no secret that the half a dozen elite clubs in England find the salary cap a hindrance, we can all see that over the next few seasons the winners of the HC will most likely come from France, the elite English clubs, through the mouthpiece of the PRL will be going on how they are handicapped by the fact that the salary cap is holding them back thus they cannot compete with the Toulons and Racing Metro's of this world, it is a non stop power battle, I have had to whiteness just this season, a club in the second tier of English rugby offering more to Welsh players than our regions can, I am not saying this lightly, there are people on here who are staunch supporters of the PRL, that's up to them, but beware, the power battle has only just started, the English club game will end up like the French model and before long the national team will end up like the same as the French as well, I have already seen talk of a Samoan RL player Ben Te'o being eyed up by England, this is all going to end in tears for everyone except the supporter and owners of the Elite European clubs.

Thats the one going to play for that famous English club called Leinster isnt it? PRL bastards...

lostinwales wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:The thing for me is this, it will always be the HC, no matter how you dress it, what I cannot fathom though is what the PRL were hoping to achieve, and what HAVE they achieved ? If it was the only way they could meddle with the Celtic league, then they have done it, but what else have they gained, I cannot see any clubs outside of France winning it again, so what will be the excuse next time ? I think this is just the start for the PRL, they obviously have an agenda, the next grizzle will be the salary cap, trust me it is coming.

You do know they set the salary cap themselves don't you?

Yes I do, but there will come a time when they want it scrapped altogether, look it is no secret that the half a dozen elite clubs in England find the salary cap a hindrance, we can all see that over the next few seasons the winners of the HC will most likely come from France, the elite English clubs, through the mouthpiece of the PRL will be going on how they are handicapped by the fact that the salary cap is holding them back thus they cannot compete with the Toulons and Racing Metro's of this world, it is a non stop power battle, I have had to whiteness just this season, a club in the second tier of English rugby offering more to Welsh players than our regions can, I am not saying this lightly, there are people on here who are staunch supporters of the PRL, that's up to them, but beware, the power battle has only just started, the English club game will end up like the French model and before long the national team will end up like the same as the French as well, I have already seen talk of a Samoan RL player Ben Te'o being eyed up by England, this is all going to end in tears for everyone except the supporter and owners of the Elite European clubs.

Thats the one going to play for that famous English club called Leinster isnt it? PRL bastards...

Doesn't matter who he is playing for, he is being eyed up, although in fairness I do not think he will end up representing them, it's just this whole money is power situation that is going to end up ruining the game. If Ben Te'o was worth his pride, he would be representing Samoa at rugby not who pays the most, sorry perhaps I should have used a different example like half of the South Africans comming up here like De Kock Steenkamp at the Ospreys. This is where it is all going to get nasty, the PRL will not stop until their clubs get evrything they want, which I suppose is their job and in the real world, you cannot have everything, but when ultimate power is involved there is no end.

Ben Te'o has an English mum. He has a whole bunch of different options were he to be good enough for international rugby union, but as far as I can see its a rumour driven by indifferent journalism.

We have had a fair few South Africans in the past few years but I cant think of any 'project' players right now. Usually they are guys with family links. The two current Southern african players around the England squad are Barritt and Ewers. Barritt has family ties to England and Ewers' family left Zimbabwe for non rugby related reasons. He has been here for a long time now.

lostinwales wrote:Ben Te'o has an English mum. He has a whole bunch of different options were he to be good enough for international rugby union, but as far as I can see its a rumour driven by indifferent journalism.

We have had a fair few South Africans in the past few years but I cant think of any 'project' players right now. Usually they are guys with family links. The two current Southern african players around the England squad are Barritt and Ewers. Barritt has family ties to England and Ewers' family left Zimbabwe for non rugby related reasons. He has been here for a long time now.

He has already played RL for Samoa though, so for me he has nailed his colours to the mast. Anyway, I am not going into this argument with you, the fact of the matter is, the PRL will demand something else before long, and it will be to scrap the salary cap altogether.

If Ben Te'o is to play for Leinster, he would be in breach of Lancaster's rules on only English based players playing for the national team, if he isn't willing to breach it for the reigning European player of the year, I highly doubt Te'o will be the first to get past it

There was me thinking Ben Te'o was being signed by Leinster as a "project" player. But hey may as well blame the english eh?

One reason certain members of the press are upset with the new tournament as the chances of them getting free trips to Vegas are now reduced.

BamBam wrote:If Ben Te'o is to play for Leinster, he would be in breach of Lancaster's rules on only English based players playing for the national team, if he isn't willing to breach it for the reigning European player of the year, I highly doubt Te'o will be the first to get past it

Thats why I said earlier that I do not think he will end up representing England.

Anyway I wish I never mentioned Ben Te'o now, I was only using him as an example of how money is going to ruin the game.

LondonTiger, what are your thoughts on the salary cap ? Do you think it hinders your club ?

It's not so much the PRL demanding to scrap the salary cap, all they have to do is vote it out of existence. I suspect the cap is generally the most vexed subject at Board meetings, but the equilibrium is maintained by the poorer clubs voting against the richer clubs. It'll be scrapped only as and when the majority vote for it to be scrapped - I can't see it myself, but respect your opinion.

The Salary Cap does not hinder my club. We do not have a sugar daddy and thus we have to live within our means. Last season we made about £500k profit - so yeah we could afford an extra marquee player, but that is it.

Even with the extra TV revenues (60% higher for Euro, a shedload higher for domestic) the majority of clubs would not vote for an abolition of the cap - as it is not in their interests. and PRL, despite what people may think, is not some secretive organisation run for the benefit of Mark McGafferty. It is an umbrella body for it's stakeholders - which in the main is the AP clubs. Most decisions made are compromises as each club will have different priorities.

The only chance of the cap going is if one member club decides to go to the courts to get a ruling that it is illegal. this could happen - hell we came close to seeing the regions and the WRU in court after all.

LondonTiger wrote:The Salary Cap does not hinder my club. We do not have a sugar daddy and thus we have to live within our means. Last season we made about £500k profit - so yeah we could afford an extra marquee player, but that is it.

Even with the extra TV revenues (60% higher for Euro, a shedload higher for domestic) the majority of clubs would not vote for an abolition of the cap - as it is not in their interests. and PRL, despite what people may think, is not some secretive organisation run for the benefit of Mark McGafferty. It is an umbrella body for it's stakeholders - which in the main is the AP clubs. Most decisions made are compromises as each club will have different priorities.

The only chance of the cap going is if one member club decides to go to the courts to get a ruling that it is illegal. this could happen - hell we came close to seeing the regions and the WRU in court after all.

It's the PRL members who are the  AP clubs owners that most people who like fair competitions have a problem with

LondonTiger wrote:The Salary Cap does not hinder my club. We do not have a sugar daddy and thus we have to live within our means. Last season we made about £500k profit - so yeah we could afford an extra marquee player, but that is it.

Even with the extra TV revenues (60% higher for Euro, a shedload higher for domestic) the majority of clubs would not vote for an abolition of the cap - as it is not in their interests. and PRL, despite what people may think, is not some secretive organisation run for the benefit of Mark McGafferty. It is an umbrella body for it's stakeholders - which in the main is the AP clubs. Most decisions made are compromises as each club will have different priorities.

The only chance of the cap going is if one member club decides to go to the courts to get a ruling that it is illegal. this could happen - hell we came close to seeing the regions and the WRU in court after all.

I take it that with Tiger in your name, your club is Leicester, I thought they were one of the most successful and richest clubs in England, with or without a sugar daddy. I thought the job of the PRL was to get the most out of what the clubs want, so I would imagine that clubs like Bath, Leicester, Sarrries, Northampton, would be all for the scrapping of the salary cap, as it would mean they could spend more on attracting better players to their clubs. Seeing as this would be the only way they could compete with the Toulons and Racing Metro's of this world, scrapping the salary cap would be the next thing on the agenda, surely ?

Leicester are successful, and have the highest turnover. A turnover related salary cap would suit us to the ground, but would be anti-competitive and wrong in a fledgling professional sport.

We do have to live within our means. We cannot afford the £3m a year loss that Wasps make (mind neither can they hence why they want their own ground with conference facilities) and pretty much all our income has to come from rugby related activity - our corporate hospitality income is a pittance compared to Quins. Hence we would not spend appreciably more than we do now. We simply could not.

LondonTiger wrote:Leicester are successful, and have the highest turnover. A turnover related salary cap would suit us to the ground, but would be anti-competitive and wrong in a fledgling professional sport.

We do have to live within our means. We cannot afford the £3m a year loss that Wasps make (mind neither can they hence why they want their own ground with conference facilities) and pretty much all our income has to come from rugby related activity - our corporate hospitality income is a pittance compared to Quins. Hence we would not spend appreciably more than we do now. We simply could not.

But if the salary cap was scrapped, you could spend an awful lot more than you do now ?

No, as we do not have the money available to spend an awful lot more. As I said before we have to live within our means. We can only spend more if income increases.

LondonTiger wrote:No, as we do not have the money available to spend an awful lot more. As I said before we have to live within our means. We can only spend more if income increases.

So you are trying to tell me that the salary cap now is exactly what your means are, yeah right, this is Leicester Tigers we are talking about here, you lot were at the fore front for years complaining about the salary cap.

Reading this thread is like stumbling on a sleeper cell of Russian spies who've been here since the 1960s but never noticed the fall of communism.

The world has changed, comrades, it hasn't ended. Capitalism is not the great enemy of the people, nor is socialism the paradise it cracked up to be.

The attitudes on here are verging on ideological. Nothing that has been touched by the PRL can be considered a success or anything other than both heavily tarnished and a threat to the very future of the game. The old tournament is remembered with misty-eyed pride and soft-focus vignetting of its flaws.

Get real. The ERC sowed the seeds of its own undoing. It was a commercial enterprise and more than two thirds of its stakeholders were unhappy with how it was run. Its controlling body refused to recognise or negotiate over those concerns until those stakeholders took their ball away. The ERC then negotiated a tv deal that effectively rendered it unable to run any competition involving the English clubs. It was a deeply flawed organisation that through an accident of history had a big disconnect between its governance and its stakeholders. That's a recipe for trouble for any sporting body.

LordDowlais wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:No, as we do not have the money available to spend an awful lot more. As I said before we have to live within our means. We can only spend more if income increases.

So you are trying to tell me that the salary cap now is exactly what your means are, yeah right, this is Leicester Tigers we are talking about here, you lot were at the fore front for years complaining about the salary cap.

As I said earlier we made £500k profit last year. That is the maximum we could afford to pay extra. One marquee players, two seasoned internationals or 5 squad players.

Poorfour wrote:Reading this thread is like stumbling on a sleeper cell of Russian spies who've been here since the 1960s but never noticed the fall of communism.

The world has changed, comrades, it hasn't ended. Capitalism is not the great enemy of the people, nor is socialism the paradise it cracked up to be.

The attitudes on here are verging on ideological. Nothing that has been touched by the PRL can be considered a success or anything other than both heavily tarnished and a threat to the very future of the game. The old tournament is remembered with misty-eyed pride and soft-focus vignetting of its flaws.

Get real. The ERC sowed the seeds of its own undoing. It was a commercial enterprise and more than two thirds of its stakeholders were unhappy with how it was run. Its controlling body refused to recognise or negotiate over those concerns until those stakeholders took their ball away. The ERC then negotiated a tv deal that effectively rendered it unable to run any competition involving the English clubs. It was a deeply flawed organisation that through an accident of history had a big disconnect between its governance and its stakeholders. That's a recipe for trouble for any sporting body.

I agree, and I said earlier, that to me it will always be the HC, no matter how you dress it, all I want to know is, what was the PRL's objective in the first place, and what have they gained ? The only difference I can see is how the Celts and Italians qualify, now if it was their aim to just meddle with somebody else's league, then they have done a good job, although I do not think that it was what they wanted to do, so what ? What is it they want ? When the Toulon's and the Racing Metro's of this world are still winning the HC, what will the gripe be then ? The next thing will be the salary cap, they cannot compete with the French as they cannot spend as much as them, it's the PRL's job to get what their clubs want, and this is what will happen.

LT

I assume that all profits are reinvested, i.e. there are no dividends paid or any other method of taking money out of the club?

There are no dividends.

Profits are indeed re-invested in infrastructure etc. Including paying off the money spent on the new stand.

Actually the next step would much more likely be a salary cap on all European squads. Currently only AP clubs and Welsh Regions have such a cap.

We all know about the French salaries - but it has also been demonstrated before that the salaries for Leinster and Munster's European squad members is well in excess of the cap currently set by PRL. Of course a fair few of these players are paid by IRFU so there is a bun fight over how much relates to province activity.

LondonTiger wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:No, as we do not have the money available to spend an awful lot more. As I said before we have to live within our means. We can only spend more if income increases.

So you are trying to tell me that the salary cap now is exactly what your means are, yeah right, this is Leicester Tigers we are talking about here, you lot were at the fore front for years complaining about the salary cap.

As I said earlier we made £500k profit last year. That is the maximum we could afford to pay extra. One marquee players, two seasoned internationals or 5 squad players.

So you agree then, you "could" spend more than the Salary cap if you wanted to, although, I would think that an institution like the Leicester Tigers would find a way of spending more.

Oh and then you can get into differing taxation policies. Both Irish and French governments offer a variety of tax incentives to sportsmen.

LondonTiger wrote:Actually the next step would much more likely be a salary cap on all European squads. Currently only AP clubs and Welsh Regions have such a cap.

We all know about the French salaries - but it has also been demonstrated before that the salaries for Leinster and Munster's European squad members is well in excess of the cap currently set by PRL. Of course a fair few of these players are paid by IRFU so there is a bun fight over how much relates to province activity.

I do not have a problem with the Irish, they are not taking all our best players like the English and French are.

LordDowlais wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:No, as we do not have the money available to spend an awful lot more. As I said before we have to live within our means. We can only spend more if income increases.

So you are trying to tell me that the salary cap now is exactly what your means are, yeah right, this is Leicester Tigers we are talking about here, you lot were at the fore front for years complaining about the salary cap.

As I said earlier we made £500k profit last year. That is the maximum we could afford to pay extra. One marquee players, two seasoned internationals or 5 squad players.

So you agree then, you "could" spend more than the Salary cap if you wanted to, although, I would think that an institution like the Leicester Tigers would find a way of spending more.

of course they could, like any other rugby team in the world. They could borrow money, but the Tigers is run as a stable business owned by 1000's of people including fans and i doubt would go down that road.

LordDowlais wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:No, as we do not have the money available to spend an awful lot more. As I said before we have to live within our means. We can only spend more if income increases.

So you are trying to tell me that the salary cap now is exactly what your means are, yeah right, this is Leicester Tigers we are talking about here, you lot were at the fore front for years complaining about the salary cap.

As I said earlier we made £500k profit last year. That is the maximum we could afford to pay extra. One marquee players, two seasoned internationals or 5 squad players.

So you agree then, you "could" spend more than the Salary cap if you wanted to, although, I would think that an institution like the Leicester Tigers would find a way of spending more.

I have said from the start we can spend a little more, you asserted we could spend an awful lot more. You need to define what you mean by an awful lot more I think. As the 500k profit from last year (250k loss the year before) does not buy much.

We would seriously suffer if the cap was removed entirely. Probably only bath would gain a great deal.

Sarries and probably leicester could, critics may say, become less creative with their accounting. but we could not hoover up the world's talent. Especially with the UKs tax policy.

LordDowlais wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Actually the next step would much more likely be a salary cap on all European squads. Currently only AP clubs and Welsh Regions have such a cap.

We all know about the French salaries - but it has also been demonstrated before that the salaries for Leinster and Munster's European squad members is well in excess of the cap currently set by PRL. Of course a fair few of these players are paid by IRFU so there is a bun fight over how much relates to province activity.

I do not have a problem with the Irish, they are not taking all our best players like the English and French are.

Aha - so you accuse others of only looking out for themselves - but actually you have self-interest at heart.

Most players have left Wales because the organisation there was an utter shambles. Before throwing stones get your own house in order perhaps?

LondonTiger wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:No, as we do not have the money available to spend an awful lot more. As I said before we have to live within our means. We can only spend more if income increases.

So you are trying to tell me that the salary cap now is exactly what your means are, yeah right, this is Leicester Tigers we are talking about here, you lot were at the fore front for years complaining about the salary cap.

As I said earlier we made £500k profit last year. That is the maximum we could afford to pay extra. One marquee players, two seasoned internationals or 5 squad players.

So you agree then, you "could" spend more than the Salary cap if you wanted to, although, I would think that an institution like the Leicester Tigers would find a way of spending more.

I have said from the start we can spend a little more, you asserted we could spend an awful lot more. You need to define what you mean by an awful lot more I think. As the 500k profit from last year (250k loss the year before) does not buy much.

We would seriously suffer if the cap was removed entirely. Probably only bath would gain a great deal.

Sarries and probably leicester could, critics may say, become less creative with their accounting. but we could not hoover up the world's talent. Especially with the UKs tax policy.

You might not hoover up the Worlds best tallent, but you could hoover up the UK's best tallent.

The salary cap is most to do with maintaining the competitiveness of the AP. It may well be a drawback for Euro competitiveness, but that's only 6 weekends (or maybe up to9) in the season - AP is 22 and currently is the financial bread and butter, and likely to continue that way.

3 or 4 clubs spending unfettered amounts on players against 8 or 9 clubs who cannot afford to, would see fixtures with cricket scorelines and predictable results. The attractiveness to fans, sponsors and TV would wane.

PRL is not just Sarries and Bath wanting to buy their way to Euro glory - it's also Newcastle, Londons Irish & Welsh and Exeter, possibly Worcester, Bristol and Leeds too (I'm not sure on voting rights for demoted PRL shareholders). Just as an aside, there is no salary cap in the Championship - god knows how much Bristol's budget is.

LondonTiger wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Actually the next step would much more likely be a salary cap on all European squads. Currently only AP clubs and Welsh Regions have such a cap.

We all know about the French salaries - but it has also been demonstrated before that the salaries for Leinster and Munster's European squad members is well in excess of the cap currently set by PRL. Of course a fair few of these players are paid by IRFU so there is a bun fight over how much relates to province activity.

I do not have a problem with the Irish, they are not taking all our best players like the English and French are.

Aha - so you accuse others of only looking out for themselves - but actually you have self-interest at heart.

Most players have left Wales because the organisation there was an utter shambles. Before throwing stones get your own house in order perhaps?

I am not really throwing stones though am I ? All I am saying is what you lot have been saying for a long time, the salary cap hinders your team, I can remember the old 606 days, with countless fans complaining why their team should be held back just because they are more successful than the lower teams in your league, OK, it might not necessarily be Leicester, but if the salary cap was scrapped/raised, you would see a lot more Toulon's in England all of a sudden, and I was trying to get to a point in all this, albeit a long winded one, I have seen about half a dozen Welsh players go for the coin playing for a team in England's second tier, if the PRL get anymore power, all our players will be in France or England.

Welsh players have by and large moved because of the protracted argument between Regions & WRU & therefor uncertainty of finances.
Hopefully for them & the Regions fans things have settled down & you can retain your players.
The weakness of the Regions was the main reason for the drain of players to England. The players that went to France would have gone purely for money (& lifestyle). Though few admit it's for the money.

I'm sure if the wrangling between Regions & WRU had been sorted earlier Bristol Welsh wouldn't have had so many players go to them.

Am sure the likes of Roberts, Charteris, Lydiate and Phillips will be back first thing to Wales if they are given the (right) opportunity... so probably at the end of this season. It's not like they are key elements of their current team either. Racing been playing better without them and Sexton for some reason. Jury is still out on JD2 (some good things in attack but poor defense) and Halfpenny (who shoudl start his first game this weekend).

LordDowlais wrote:
I agree, and I said earlier, that to me it will always be the HC, no matter how you dress it, all I want to know is, what was the PRL's objective in the first place, and what have they gained ? The only difference I can see is how the Celts and Italians qualify, now if it was their aim to just meddle with somebody else's league, then they have done a good job, although I do not think that it was what they wanted to do, so what ? What is it they want ? When the Toulon's and the Racing Metro's of this world are still winning the HC, what will the gripe be then ? The next thing will be the salary cap, they cannot compete with the French as they cannot spend as much as them, it's the PRL's job to get what their clubs want, and this is what will happen.

Their objectives were pretty simple, and ones that I have no difficulty supporting:
1) To strengthen the top tier competition by ensuring that every team in the top tier competition qualifies through their domestic league
2) To strengthen the lower tier competitions (which you get as a result of ensuring that a wider spread of Pro12 teams are involved in it)
3) To distribute the revenue from the tournament more evenly across the teams (which was achieved by splitting it by leagues rather than unions)
4) To put in place a more effective commercial structure that could generate more revenue for everyone.

The structures for 1 & 2 are in place and we will see whether it does strengthen the competition - certainly, there are no easy pools in the top tier comp. 3 has been achieved, with a safeguard for the Pro 12 teams that their revenue won't fall. 4 is a work in progress, because the new structure was only agreed through an exercise in extreme brinkmanship by both sides, but looks set to be achieved on the basis of the tv rights [1]. They're clearly going for a different sponsorship model, so we may not know how that plays out for a while.

What really annoys me is the constant characterisation of the PRL club owners as profiteering bullies. Most of them are former players with long associations with their clubs. The RFU stuck its head in the sand at the advent of professionalism and they stepped in to fill the vacuum. They have generally pumped large amounts of cash into trying to get the professional game running sustainably, without any expectation of short-term reward. They have generally tended to put the interests of the collective group ahead of individual clubs (e.g. with the salary cap and how broadcast and RFU EPS money is distributed) [2] [3]

Before the current renegotiation of the European competition, most clubs were losing a few hundred thousand pounds a year, while watching the Pro 12 clubs pocket 2-3 times as much from Europe as they were. Were the PRL pretty ruthless and commercially minded in trying to change the situation? They probably were. Were they simply trying to destroy other unions' setups? No.

A couple of final points. Is the RFU/PRL setup the ideal setup for English rugby? Probably not. But it's what we've got and it's a damn sight better than anything the RFU of 1997 could have managed. The best professional club setup in the world is probably New Zealand. Next are probably Ireland and South Africa. The PRL is probably next - but it should be noted that it's the only one that manages to sustain a fully professional, totally domestic league.

Secondly, on questions of salary cap and competitiveness, we probably are entering an era in which French clubs will dominate the European tournaments. Right now, they've got more money. bigger squads and better players. I'm resigned to that, because I think in the longer term the tournament sets the foundations for other teams to catch up.

[1] Albeit at the cost of most countries having rights shared between two broadcasters. That's a pain for everyone - but the old ERC are at least as much to blame for it as the PRL. The refusal to negotiate forced the PRL to find a bargaining chip in the form of the BT contract, the decision to then sign the Sky deal left everyone in a position where there were bound to be multiple broadcasters.
[2] That said, the collective group is the PRL clubs and shareholders rather than the wider English game. I would rather it was more inclusive, but from their point of view it's the PRL club owners who have invested the bulk of the money in the game, and the PRL's legal and fiduciary duty is to its shareholders. It looks like there might be some movement for change now that the top of the Championship and the bottom of the Premiership are closer - but that also requires the RFU to get in on the act.
[3] The usual dissenting voice in the collective is Leicester who - interestingly - are the only club who have been consistently profitable since the start of professionalism and who are owned by their members rather than a small group of investors. More recently, they've been joined by Saracens and Bath, both of whom have new owners who probably didn't inherit the full debts incurred by the original investors.

Thats done it Poorfour. You weren't supposed to give them a well argued sensible post

Poorfour wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:
I agree, and I said earlier, that to me it will always be the HC, no matter how you dress it, all I want to know is, what was the PRL's objective in the first place, and what have they gained ? The only difference I can see is how the Celts and Italians qualify, now if it was their aim to just meddle with somebody else's league, then they have done a good job, although I do not think that it was what they wanted to do, so what ? What is it they want ? When the Toulon's and the Racing Metro's of this world are still winning the HC, what will the gripe be then ? The next thing will be the salary cap, they cannot compete with the French as they cannot spend as much as them, it's the PRL's job to get what their clubs want, and this is what will happen.

Secondly, on questions of salary cap and competitiveness, we probably are entering an era in which French clubs will dominate the European tournaments. Right now, they've got more money. bigger squads and better players. I'm resigned to that, because I think in the longer term the tournament sets the foundations for other teams to catch up.

Firstly thank you for your long thought out explanation, but there is one point I would like to pick up on, you have resigned yourself to the fact that the French will dominate for a while to come, BUT, you then say you do not mind because it will make other teams try and catch up, now, how do you propose these other teams will catch up ? This is the point I am trying to hammer home, the only way other teams will catch up with the French is if they spend the same amounts as the French, wouldn't you agree ? To do this, and you know what I am going to say, the rest of us will either have to raise our salary caps, or scrap them altogether, this will not happen in Wales as we cannot afford to spend enough now, never mind scrapping or upping any salary caps, but in England on the other hand, where there is more money the next thing that will happen is the PRL will be going down the road of scrapping the salary cap so that they can keep up with the French, and then we would see a raft of players joining the richer clubs in England as well as France, the writing is on the wall, and it seems as though only person on here who can see it is me.

But the point has already been made, the cap is their to ensure competitiveness in the league. Scrapping would potentially improve competetiveness for a few in Europe. The league TV deal was worth something like £25M a year between 12 teams. Europe is worth, at a massive push, more like £15M in total (probably). Then there are also the home games, of which there are 11 compared with 3. Add in the fact that around 6 teams every year will be in the Challenge Cup and couldn't give a damn about the big spending French teams.

The PRL isn't controlled by the handful of big names shouting forthe cap to be removed. If it was then it would have already gone. They already can't compete with the French spending so why would anything change there? It's tied to central funds, so if the big spenders want to increase the cap they need in increase central funds, which is done by making the premiership more interesting.

I think we are thinking about different timescales, and different types of catch up. The French teams have a commercial and structural advantage today that allows them to spend more on players and have larger squads. That's not going to go away in the short term.

Raising the salary cap to compete would enable a few clubs to close the gap in the short term, but would be financially ruinous in the long term unless there were enough clubs in that position to support a domestic league. I think the majority of club owners in the PRL recognise this and although Leicester, Bath and Sarries make a lot of noise, the reason they do is that they don't have enough votes to change things.

The new structure creates an environment where the competition can grow commercially and should make it easier for the participating clubs to grow commercially as well. As that happens, I'd expect the PRL to raise the salary cap gradually, but are they likely to scrap it altogether? I don't think so.

They might ultimately want to raise it to a level where it's the same or higher than the French one, but the club owners have spent millions getting this far and are commercially smart enough to know that scrapping the cap will create a soccer-style arms race for players. If they want to make their money back, they need to contain costs. The primary cost is salaries, and the biggest portion of salaries is player salaries. If you let those run wild, you create a situation where you can't make money. While there are a few clubs that would be willing to run up bigger debts in the short term to be more successful long term, there is enough of a drag from the rest that that is unlikely to happen under the current structure.

The only thing I can think of that might change things is a major restructuring of the game into, say, some kind of European superleague.

No guys, the only thing that will stop anything getting out of control is an European wide salary cap, but I could not see the French agreeing to that, and trust me, when the French are STILL dominating the HC,the PRL will then pipe up that it is because the English clubs cannot compete, just as they did when the Irish provinces were dominating it, when they complained that the way they had to qualify was not fair, the only saving grace we have at the moment is that the less elite English clubs want to keep the status quo, but the more Sarries, Quins, Northampton, Leicester and Bath's that keep surfacing the less voices there will be to keep the status quo.

There's a lot of talk about the French sides dominating Europe. At present Toulon are dominating (by a distance) but I don't see any of the other French sides showing any signs of taking over regardless of big spending. The likes of Racing, Montpelier, Clermont, Toulouse etc are certainly well beatable by the likes of Sarries, Munster etc.

Cyril wrote:There's a lot of talk about the French sides dominating Europe. At present Toulon are dominating (by a distance) but I don't see any of the other French sides showing any signs of taking over regardless of big spending. The likes of Racing, Montpelier, Clermont, Toulouse etc are certainly well beatable by the likes of Sarries, Munster etc.

Yes but these clubs only need to flash the cash as and when if they feel they need to keep up.

LordDowlais wrote:No guys, the only thing that will stop anything getting out of control is an European wide salary cap, but I could not see the French agreeing to that, and trust me, when the French are STILL dominating the HC,the PRL will then pipe up that it is because the English clubs cannot compete, just as they did when the Irish provinces were dominating it, when they complained that the way they had to qualify was not fair, the only saving grace we have at the moment is that the less elite English clubs want to keep the status quo, but the more Sarries, Quins, Northampton, Leicester and Bath's that keep surfacing the less voices there will be to keep the status quo.

No, that's tosh. The PRL imposed its own salary cap voluntarily and has maintained it at a level below the French cap for some years. Why should a comparatively small redistribution of money within the European tournament structure (remember, we're currently talking a few hundred thousand per club here, not millions each) suddenly trigger a willingness to more than double the spend on squads? Ridiculous.

The French will continue to dominate the European tournaments for some time to come (well, Toulon and maybe Clermont will), and yes, dissenting voices will be raised and yes, those voices will come from PRL clubs. But they won't come from the PRL as a body, it'll be the usual suspects.

And by the way (which I think is illustrative of how you're reacting to perceptions rather than really looking into what's going on), a quick google would tell you that Saints' and Quins' views on the salary cap are very different from Bath's, Tigers' and Sarries'. Saints and Quins have supported the rise in the cap that has recently been agreed with the whole PRL, but they haven't spoken out to argue for scrapping it or raising it to French levels. Fortunately for almost everyone, Saints and Quins represent the majority view in the PRL.

Seems to me as if the question is - are the PRL clubs prepared to sacrifice competitiveness in the AP in order to try to dominate in Europe. The answer is pretty simple, in that the domestic league generates more money. Europe is important but not as important as the day to day stuff.

I wonder if that attitude is reversed amongst the pro12, or at least some of it, and that this is driving some of the fear for the future

lostinwales wrote:Seems to me as if the question is - are the PRL clubs prepared to sacrifice competitiveness in the AP in order to try to dominate in Europe. The answer is pretty simple, in that the domestic league generates more money. Europe is important but not as important as the day to day stuff.

I wonder if that attitude is reversed amongst the pro12, or at least some of it, and that this is driving some of the fear for the future

That is exactly what it is, I can easily see a future when almost all the Welsh national squad is not playing in Wales.

Also, if your own league is more important than the European tournament, then why the feck did the clubs and the PRL cause a holy uproar about the way the Pro 12 sides qualified for the damn thing ?