How can Nadal be dropping sets to Isner?

I know he's far the better player, and they were tie-break sets, but I'm staggered at him dropping two sets on clay to a guy who usually can only function on a faster court.

Is it these balls? Or is it symptomatic of something else; when the greats drop a bit it's often hard to believe it until really bad things happen.

More good news for Murray I'd have thought.

Is it possible that super rafa is going through a crisis of confidence? He missed a lot of easy passing shots today that were bread and butter for him in the past. I don't think he is in physical decline but I think that maybe he is a bit rattled by his 4 straight defeats at the hands of Djokovic. Tennis is so mental and the margins at the top are so slim.

And lets not discredit Isner he is a legitimate top 20 top 30 player a tough draw in the 1st round of a grandslam regardless of the surface. He actually because of the kick serve and his height is not that bad of a player on clay. I think he was in the finals of Belgrade last year and has had some other decent results. Nadal's style tends to be not as effective against tall guys with good two handed backhands.

Because Isner's serve was brilliant today. Bit of a daft article.

I don't know legendkillar, Nadal is a pretty amazing returner on clay. And isner's serve is always brilliant he didn't bring anything out of the ordinary today with is serve. Marathon man was actually hanging with Rafa from the back of the court quite comfortably for most of the match. To me that is what I found most surprising. Plus Isner is at best a mediocre volleyer and Rafa missed a bunch of passing shots that are bread and butter to him.

socal his kick serve was brilliant. Almost all the returns Nadal hit was above his head!!

Rafa just didn't look comfortable at all passing Isner at the net. If Isner played a better length he might have won the match.

Look, I am not saying that Isner didn't play a heck of a match. But Rafa not looking comfortable with the passing shot, thats his bag baby. That is what Rafa nadal does, he makes ridiculous passing shots all day and all night. And with john isner you don't even need to pass him, just make him hit a volley that he has to bend down to pick up and more times than not he misses it. Rafa didn't look right to me. Does that mean he still can't go on to claim the title? No he certainly can comeback and up his level and win the whole thing, he is that good. But he doesn't look that confident or together with his game.

I think Nadal certainly got stunned by Djoko's losses. Before he was always saying that he was injured, he didn;t feel well and so on to explain his losses...but recently he never played as well and got beaten by an under par Djoko. I think he is certainly very nervous.

Also, I really think he is going to suffer in 2 rounds if Davydenko can get close to his best.

Tenez wrote:I think Nadal certainly got stunned by Djoko's losses. Before he was always saying that he was injured, he didn;t feel well and so on to explain his losses...but recently he never played as well and got beaten by an under par Djoko. I think he is certainly very nervous.

Also, I really think he is going to suffer in 2 rounds if Davydenko can get close to his best.

Nadal will destroy Davydenko.

All of Davydenko's success vs Nadal is on H/C

Oh no Rafa fans, Sonic has just made a prediction. Its all over, whatever sonic predicts the exact opposite will happen. come on sonic don't do this to Rafa hurry up and predict a Davydenko victory so Rafa can win.

All of Davydenko's success vs Nadal is on H/C.
---------------------
1 - It was easier for Djoko to beat Nadal on clay than HC recently
2 - those courts play like HC.

I think Davydenko is going to make the Spaniard run right and left and I don't think Nadal can run as much as before.

Still should be an interesting match.

Isner played way above his usual standard and kudos to him.

Nadal still won after being down two sets which shows his fighting spirit.

But it's far from being a cakewalk as far as going all the way

Nadal wasn't down two sets, he won the first.

And I don't care if Isner played the match of his life (which judging by him only getting a dozen or so aces in 5 sets, he didn't), John Isner on clay is nothing more than an appetiser.

Weird stuff is happening with Nadal. Think back a year and imagine this happening. You can't, can you? No, neither can I.

The thing I find most disturbing is that Isner was basically for the most part was able to hang with Rafa from the back. Not to mention how Rafa missed so many passing shots that were bread and butter for him. Something strikes me as being off with Rafa. He seemed subdued and under pressure, he just wasn't playing with reckless abandon even when he was up a set and a break early on.

My personal suspicion is that it's physical decline; it's not like he's dropped off a cliff, just a smidge. It happened to Federer and they can still win Slams after the peak, but people get closer, they take sets and then surprising losses happen. That last part hasn't happened yet but I thought it was pretty shocking when Murray walked all over him in that 2nd set in Monaco, an out of form and well past peak Federer takes a set in Madrid and then Djokovic beats him back to back in straight sets.

Now this; Murray, Federer and Djokovic are one thing, but Isner on clay? This isn't confidence, it's early signs of decline.

socal1976 wrote:Oh no Rafa fans, Sonic has just made a prediction. Its all over, whatever sonic predicts the exact opposite will happen. come on sonic don't do this to Rafa hurry up and predict a Davydenko victory so Rafa can win.

Your novelty is wearing thin now

I think some people need to give Isner the credit he deserves for crying out loud. It's pathetic that fans say 'Nadal didn't play his best' or 'Nadal let Isner play to his strengths' bottom line is that Isner took 2 sets off the World no.1 and defending champion. I didn't think for a second that Isner was going to beat Nadal. Isner could not maintain the tennis he was playing. He served and volleyed, played drop shots, he had to adapt to Nadal and for a player to do that is impressive.

Nadal had a scare last year at Wimbledon when he went to 5 sets with De Bakker.

Some players are able to produce their best tennis against the best players.

Some players are able to produce their best tennis against the best players..
---------------

Especially against Nadal.

For 6 years no one could get close to Fed bar Nadal on clay.

Legendkillar, I still would favor nadal to win this tournament but I think it is fair to say that he doesn't look the same and isn't playing with the same level or confidence that we have seen in the past. This is the same guy who completely dismantled Roger Federer at roger's peak on clay. And yet Roger was never able to take Rafa to five sets at Roland Garros. Are you telling me that John Isner last night played better than Roger played at Roland garros from 2005-08? The Rafa of 2010 or those years would have still beat up on Isner regardless of how well he played. Maybe he would lose a set or beat him in three tight sets, but to go a set away from elimination in the first round, I don't think so.

The cracks are showing, confidence taken a blow? Anyhow, its early days yet. This might be just what Nadal needs to be stronger and fight for the 6th crown. He certainly will have a lot to prove now, as the his infallibale clay mantle has come off and other opponents will be more positive!!!
This FO is promising to be a cracker..cant believe I have to work this week! Hope Murray can crack him too....

socal Isner played better than Federer against Nadal from 05-08 purely because he had the serve to hurt Nadal. Tennis pundits for years said the one person that could trouble Nadal on clay was none other than Karlovic because of his kick serve. The height on Isner's serve allowed him time to get in on the net and close the point out. Isner still would've troubled the Nadal of 2010 based on that performance. Like I said yesterday Nadal was returning the serve with his racket above his head most of the time. Now you see why pundits thought Karlovic could hurt Nadal because it would take a massive kick serve like both Karlovic and Isner possess to trouble Nadal and not give him any space to manovue a decent return.

socal1976 wrote:Legendkillar, I still would favor nadal to win this tournament but I think it is fair to say that he doesn't look the same and isn't playing with the same level or confidence that we have seen in the past. This is the same guy who completely dismantled Roger Federer at roger's peak on clay. And yet Roger was never able to take Rafa to five sets at Roland Garros. Are you telling me that John Isner last night played better than Roger played at Roland garros from 2005-08? The Rafa of 2010 or those years would have still beat up on Isner regardless of how well he played. Maybe he would lose a set or beat him in three tight sets, but to go a set away from elimination in the first round, I don't think so.

No, he never dismantled him even on clay at his peak.

He destroyed him in 2008 when Federer was all over the place with Mono, losing to all and sundry that year and obviously not healthy.

legendkillar wrote:socal Isner played better than Federer against Nadal from 05-08 purely because he had the serve to hurt Nadal. Tennis pundits for years said the one person that could trouble Nadal on clay was none other than Karlovic because of his kick serve. The height on Isner's serve allowed him time to get in on the net and close the point out. Isner still would've troubled the Nadal of 2010 based on that performance. Like I said yesterday Nadal was returning the serve with his racket above his head most of the time. Now you see why pundits thought Karlovic could hurt Nadal because it would take a massive kick serve like both Karlovic and Isner possess to trouble Nadal and not give him any space to manovue a decent return.

No.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=N409&oId=K336

bogbrush wrote:

legendkillar wrote:socal Isner played better than Federer against Nadal from 05-08 purely because he had the serve to hurt Nadal. Tennis pundits for years said the one person that could trouble Nadal on clay was none other than Karlovic because of his kick serve. The height on Isner's serve allowed him time to get in on the net and close the point out. Isner still would've troubled the Nadal of 2010 based on that performance. Like I said yesterday Nadal was returning the serve with his racket above his head most of the time. Now you see why pundits thought Karlovic could hurt Nadal because it would take a massive kick serve like both Karlovic and Isner possess to trouble Nadal and not give him any space to manovue a decent return.

No.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=N409&oId=K336

We are talking clay!! Not hard or grass!!

Riiiight...... so Nadal is supposed to struggle more with him on clay than hard?

Bogbrush, I have witnessed a couple of straight set thumpings of Roger by Nadal myself at RG. Regardless, the point is the same Fed in all his glory at his peak could not get Rafa into a 5th set at RG. Isner's serve is great but he is not that profficient of a volleyer and Rafa with his passing shots basically made him look like the second incarnation of John Mccenroe. I am not saying Isner didn't play well, but if his kick serve is so lethal on clay why does he have such a poor overall record at RG and other clay events. He can play on clay as I have mentioned before but again Nadal last night wasn't the dominant Nadal i am used to on clay. Could he get his act together and win this event, absolutely it very well could happen. But he is going to have to take his game up at least 2 or 3 notches to have a chance.

legendkillar wrote:socal Isner played better than Federer against Nadal from 05-08 purely because he had the serve to hurt Nadal. Tennis pundits for years said the one person that could trouble Nadal on clay was none other than Karlovic because of his kick serve. The height on Isner's serve allowed him time to get in on the net and close the point out. Isner still would've troubled the Nadal of 2010 based on that performance. Like I said yesterday Nadal was returning the serve with his racket above his head most of the time. Now you see why pundits thought Karlovic could hurt Nadal because it would take a massive kick serve like both Karlovic and Isner possess to trouble Nadal and not give him any space to manovue a decent return.

So do you read posts?

Clearly not.

I was talking about a kick serve which clearly yesterday troubled Nadal. I think anyone watching that match could see that

socal1976 wrote:Bogbrush, I have witnessed a couple of straight set thumpings of Roger by Nadal myself at RG. Regardless, the point is the same Fed in all his glory at his peak could not get Rafa into a 5th set at RG. Isner's serve is great but he is not that profficient of a volleyer and Rafa with his passing shots basically made him look like the second incarnation of John Mccenroe. I am not saying Isner didn't play well, but if his kick serve is so lethal on clay why does he have such a poor overall record at RG and other clay events. He can play on clay as I have mentioned before but again Nadal last night wasn't the dominant Nadal i am used to on clay. Could he get his act together and win this event, absolutely it very well could happen. But he is going to have to take his game up at least 2 or 3 notches to have a chance.

Really? That's pretty impressive, given they only had one 3-set match at RG and it was the 2008 one I mentioned. All the other three matches were four-setters, and in those Federer had chances in sets he lost, so were hardly "thumpings".

By the way, you're arguing with the wrong guy if you think I believe Isner played great. he didn't. Look at my original post, the guys nothing on clay.

legendkillar wrote:

legendkillar wrote:socal Isner played better than Federer against Nadal from 05-08 purely because he had the serve to hurt Nadal. Tennis pundits for years said the one person that could trouble Nadal on clay was none other than Karlovic because of his kick serve. The height on Isner's serve allowed him time to get in on the net and close the point out. Isner still would've troubled the Nadal of 2010 based on that performance. Like I said yesterday Nadal was returning the serve with his racket above his head most of the time. Now you see why pundits thought Karlovic could hurt Nadal because it would take a massive kick serve like both Karlovic and Isner possess to trouble Nadal and not give him any space to manovue a decent return.

So do you read posts?

Clearly not.

I was talking about a kick serve which clearly yesterday troubled Nadal. I think anyone watching that match could see that

Yeah, the kick serve that didn't trouble him on fast courts but was supposed to sort him out on clay?

You're going to need to explain that again.

I dont think the answer is a straight one to yesterday's performance.

For me Nadal's form hasnt been (and it sounds daft when the guy has got to 6 straight finals winning 2) his usual standard. Its not decline for me (or not significantly anyway), its more linked to form, to technique-slip, to loss of confidence, maybe poor tactics, and perhaps even complacency coming into 2011 off the stellar 2010. Plus I agree Isner did play a blinder and would have likely troubled anyone yesterday. I remember guys like Rosset and Goran used to be a nightmare on clay for people to play against with their serves. Clay and big-kick servers is actually quite a potent mix - as Muster discovered against Rafter one year at the French.

For me this year, in many of his matches this Nadal has been simply hitting far too many mid-court balls - this is the single biggest problem in his game right now. Its what has killed him against Djokovic and allowed Murray in at MonteCarlo. This is technique-slip and U.Toni hasnt got to the bottom of it which is poor for a coach. It could be that Nadal is playing too safe and thats also linked to confidence too. He also doesnt seem to be able to go for the lines anymore. The 2011 Nadal seems to be a shade of the previous years versions. One thing for certain is he needs to win this tournament to restore his confidence or else he's really going to go on a mental dive.

bogbrush wrote:

legendkillar wrote:

legendkillar wrote:socal Isner played better than Federer against Nadal from 05-08 purely because he had the serve to hurt Nadal. Tennis pundits for years said the one person that could trouble Nadal on clay was none other than Karlovic because of his kick serve. The height on Isner's serve allowed him time to get in on the net and close the point out. Isner still would've troubled the Nadal of 2010 based on that performance. Like I said yesterday Nadal was returning the serve with his racket above his head most of the time. Now you see why pundits thought Karlovic could hurt Nadal because it would take a massive kick serve like both Karlovic and Isner possess to trouble Nadal and not give him any space to manovue a decent return.

So do you read posts?

Clearly not.

I was talking about a kick serve which clearly yesterday troubled Nadal. I think anyone watching that match could see that

Yeah, the kick serve that didn't trouble him on fast courts but was supposed to sort him out on clay?

You're going to need to explain that again.

Right when you compare the return point on Clay to Hard, Nadal plays all of his returns on serve on Clay from well behind the baseline, On a hardcourt He will be much closer to the baseline on return. SO what you have is that on a hardcourt Nadal can take the serve on a lot lower on tracjectory. His return position on Clay means he is taking the ball on way to high.

So he should stand closer on clay then it's not a problem? It's not like there's any hazards from doing so on a slower court.

It's a non-problem on clay if it's not one on hard.

If you saw the last 2 sets and taken into account the fatigue factor effecting Isner, Nadal stepped in closer on serve hence why he won in the end.

A kick serve does not come off 2 different surfaces exactly the same now does it.

legendkillar wrote:If you saw the last 2 sets and taken into account the fatigue factor effecting Isner, Nadal stepped in closer on serve hence why he won in the end.

A kick serve does not come off 2 different surfaces exactly the same now does it.

You seem to be trying to say that a kick serve is a bigger weapon on clay than on hard, and the main reason is that it's because the guy stands back on clay.

It doesn't hang together.

Legendkillar, I read your post, I don't disagree with the fact that a good kick serve can be problematic on clay or that Isner played well. But as others have pointed out there were a lot of other issues with nadal's game other than he just couldn't return isner's serve. Actually he broke Isner a few times in that match. Even in the long backcourt exchanges he let Isner stay pretty even with him for most of the match. He made way too many errors and missed some easy passing shots for him. He dropped the forehand short on numerous occassions.

I would say that Lydian has hit the nail on the head. I alluded to this in my first post, is it possible that this is mainly a crisis of confidence? He is playing it too safe is a sure signe of lack of confidence. Lets look at all the pressure and mental stress Nadal has to deal with in this tournament:

1. He is lost 4 straight finals to Novak, big dent in the confidence
2. he is trying to tie Borg's all time record for RGs, added pressure
3. If he doesn't win RG he loses the #1 ranking


Add to that the fact that maybe he has lost a little, just a little of that aura of invincibility that he has in the past benefitted from on clay.

To be fair guys, there's hardly any dressing on the courts this year (they keep reducing it) so its playing more and more like a hardcourt too. I think Wilander said that yesterday too.

I just think Nadal's game is all over the place at the moment - and yet he's still winning most of the time and only losing to one guy. So its not a complete disaster given this poor form, at least he can only get better...

socal1976 wrote:3. If he doesn't win RG he loses the #1 ranking

That goes regardless of winning so long as Djokovic doesn't have a failure.

Not all players play 3-4 ft behind the baseline like Nadal does. A kick serve against this type of player will be a weapon now won't it?

Nadal has won the FO 5 times using this game, why is he going to change that?

legendkillar wrote:Not all players play 3-4 ft behind the baseline like Nadal does. A kick serve against this type of player will be a weapon now won't it?

Nadal has won the FO 5 times using this game, why is he going to change that?

I didn't ask him to, I'm just not in the market for the argument that a kick serve is more dangerous on clay than it is on hard.

Lydian, I personally don't think Nadal has played that badly this season, he obviously wasn't feeling up to snuff at the AO and had some sort of injury issues as he withdrew from Dubai after that defeat. But he has won two good tournaments and played in 4 other finals. Again it is a matter of perception, its a bit like the problem Fed has, Nadal has set the bar so high especially on clay that in slight loss of form is seen as an epic failure. But what is different this year in my mind is that he actually has to deal with a player who doesn't seem to fear him on a clay court, who respects him but feels like he has Nadal's measure. But his last match against Isner was very poor, and then his second round match against Lapenti at Rome was also very poor and he somehow got to the final. I do believe that this season is more a case of someone just improving more than Rafa and taking his game up a level, and Rafa not improving as much, as opposed to a total collapse or degradation of Rafa's physical abilities.

socal1976 wrote:Legendkillar, I read your post, I don't disagree with the fact that a good kick serve can be problematic on clay or that Isner played well. But as others have pointed out there were a lot of other issues with nadal's game other than he just couldn't return isner's serve. Actually he broke Isner a few times in that match. Even in the long backcourt exchanges he let Isner stay pretty even with him for most of the match. He made way too many errors and missed some easy passing shots for him. He dropped the forehand short on numerous occassions.

I would say that Lydian has hit the nail on the head. I alluded to this in my first post, is it possible that this is mainly a crisis of confidence? He is playing it too safe is a sure signe of lack of confidence. Lets look at all the pressure and mental stress Nadal has to deal with in this tournament:

1. He is lost 4 straight finals to Novak, big dent in the confidence
2. he is trying to tie Borg's all time record for RGs, added pressure
3. If he doesn't win RG he loses the #1 ranking


Add to that the fact that maybe he has lost a little, just a little of that aura of invincibility that he has in the past benefitted from on clay.

All baseline points were more or less won by Nadal. The one shot which wasn't working for Nadal was the backhand pass. Isner played a short length and everytime he tried to go longer he went too long. Isner points were mostly serve and volley and unreturned serves.

Nadal still won the match. Like I said before he had a scare last year at Wimbledon against De Bakker. Any player will have a match that their not going to win in 3 sets at a Grand Slam.

bogbrush wrote:

legendkillar wrote:Not all players play 3-4 ft behind the baseline like Nadal does. A kick serve against this type of player will be a weapon now won't it?
Nadal has won the FO 5 times using this game, why is he going to change that?

I didn't ask him to, I'm just not in the market for the argument that a kick serve is more dangerous on clay than it is on hard.

So now we have gone from discussing why Nadal had problems with Isner to discussions about the surface?

Please read before re-posting

i don't know legendkillar, maybe we were not watching the same match. Yes Nadal won most of the baseline points and lengthy exchanges but he wasn't quite as dominant as one would think or that you are portraying. I saw Isner win quite a few lengthy baseline points. At least you acknowledge that something other than the serve of Isner came into play. He also missed a bunch of relatively routine backhand passes, to me that equals a drop in his usual form. And i am not disputing that Nadal could still up his level and take this title. Just stating that he played a real poor match by his standards on clay and we can't just credit his performance to Isner's unusual quality on that day. I also saw Rafa make quite a few really poor errors that are just not customary of his game on this surface or any other.

The surface is a relevant factor in any match, Nadal's issues with Isner were multifactorial. Less court dressing may be one of them, change of balls this year another, his form, his confidence, Isner's form, etc, etc.

I am not implying Isner was dominant. I was merely suggesting that Isner was able hold his own on his own service game. Isner played 2 good sets by coming in and closing out points. Isner was short on his length in rallies and when Nadal tried to take advantage he wasn't hitting his usual winners. Isner also played his drop shots very well. What I was also saying was that Nadal being so far behind the baseline will find it difficult with a kick serve if he is taking it from that distance. Isner tired drastically in the 4th and 5th set and that was what gave Nadal freedom to hit some winners. He read the serve better as I felt it lacked the speed Isner was getting in set 3 and 4. Nadal was pinned back by the Isner serve in those sets too.

Actually lk, you started on about Karlovic, I showed you how Nadal has no problems with Dr Ivo on hard courts (their only meetings have been off clay) and so I told you that what went harmless on hardcourts wasn't going to become lethal on clay.

The rest has been all about you trying to throw a big smokescreen over that.

bogbrush wrote:Actually lk, you started on about Karlovic, I showed you how Nadal has no problems with Dr Ivo on hard courts (their only meetings have been off clay) and so I told you that what went harmless on hardcourts wasn't going to become lethal on clay.

The rest has been all about you trying to throw a big smokescreen over that.

It started about me saying the kick serve on CLAY

You then started rambling about how Clay and Hard seem play the same way and trying to deflect away from the initial point

legendkillar wrote:

bogbrush wrote:Actually lk, you started on about Karlovic, I showed you how Nadal has no problems with Dr Ivo on hard courts (their only meetings have been off clay) and so I told you that what went harmless on hardcourts wasn't going to become lethal on clay.

The rest has been all about you trying to throw a big smokescreen over that.

It started about me saying the kick serve on CLAY

You then started rambling about how Clay and Hard seem play the same way and trying to deflect away from the initial point

Almost correct. You just need to remember the bit where a clay court allows you an easier time stepping in to cut out the rising ball and you've got it.

Then you'll realise that trying to put down yesterdays match to a kick serve is nonsense.

bogbrush wrote:

legendkillar wrote:

bogbrush wrote:Actually lk, you started on about Karlovic, I showed you how Nadal has no problems with Dr Ivo on hard courts (their only meetings have been off clay) and so I told you that what went harmless on hardcourts wasn't going to become lethal on clay.

The rest has been all about you trying to throw a big smokescreen over that.

It started about me saying the kick serve on CLAY

You then started rambling about how Clay and Hard seem play the same way and trying to deflect away from the initial point

Almost correct. You just need to remember the bit where a clay court allows you an easier time stepping in to cut out the rising ball and you've got it.

Then you'll realise that trying to put down yesterdays match to a kick serve is nonsense.

If you are playing a ball with the racket above your head on the rise, your not going to get the same control on the return now are you??

Then you might see that a kick serve on clay if playing that far behind the baseline is going to be a weapon now don't we?

legendkillar wrote:If you are playing a ball with the racket above your head on the rise, your not going to get the same control on the return now are you??

Then you might see that a kick serve on clay if playing that far behind the baseline is going to be a weapon now don't we?

It's a great argument. It's got me completely flummoxed about why John Isner is so hopeless on clay, really it has.

bogbrush wrote:

legendkillar wrote:If you are playing a ball with the racket above your head on the rise, your not going to get the same control on the return now are you??

Then you might see that a kick serve on clay if playing that far behind the baseline is going to be a weapon now don't we?

It's a great argument. It's got me completely flummoxed about why John Isner is so hopeless on clay, really it has.

If for example Isner played Federer, Federer doesn't stand that far behind the baseline when returning serve so he will be taking the ball a lot lower than Nadal.

Isner played some good drop shots and some good serve and volley, that took so much out of him that he cannot maintain that standard of tennis as he hasn't the stamina.

The reason Nadal for me is just amazing on clay because he returns serve better then anyone and considering 95% of players on the ATP have flat serves he is able to return with greater control and he quickly turns defence into attack. If you take socal when saying about Federer against Nadal from 05-08 on clay, he tried serve and volley and because his serve was flatter it would never work and Nadal just picked him off galore.

Also Nadal's BH pass was not working at all yesterday and I think alot of that was due to how well Isner covered the net as being 6'10 he must look massive at the net.

Nadal won't play a similar player like that on clay for a long time.