Trouble in Paradise? PRL clubs threaten to play during World Cup

First topic message reminder :

Well, all that peace and harmony between the PRL & RFU didn't last long! This is why sport doesn't do too well - business is now everything!

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Tension between Premiership Rugby and the RFU could be about to boil over with frustrated clubs threatening to play during next year's World Cup unless a deal can be struck.

Premiership Rugby, angered by the RFU's refusal to consult it over any bid for the World Cup, is demanding a £14m compensation package in return for shutting down the league next Autumn while the tournament is played out.

Suspending play in September and October 2015 would leave England's 12 top-flight clubs without match-day income for five months, with projections suggesting each will lose £1.2m.

The RFU however, has so far failed to meet Premiership Rugby's demands over a compensation package. According to the Rugby Paper, the governing body has offered £6m, but on the condition that players are released for further home Tests - with more money to follow as part of a new agreement between the RFU and clubs due for renewal in 2016.

That offer is likely to fall short of Premiership Rugby's demands, with officials at England's top clubs refusing to be held to ransom over a new post-World Cup deal.

"Until suitable compensation is agreed we should look to play through the World Cup," Leicester Tigers chief executive Simon Cohen said. "There are ongoing talks between Premiership Rugby and the RFU, but the World Cup was an agreement between the IRB and RFU to which weren't a party, so to simply expect us to close down our businesses is simply not acceptable.

"It's like going back to the bad old days of serfdom and everybody is extremely angry that this agreement was entered into with an expectation that we would shut down. So if there isn't going to be adequate compensation, we should play through."

That could jeopardise the staging of the World Cup, with the agreement between the RFU and IRB stating that no elite club rugby will be played during the tournament.

"That's not our problem because both of them entered into an agreement without consulting us in any way, shape or form," Cohen added. "Why should Leicester as a club be concerned about that?

"Presumably the Premiership playing through the World Cup would be a breach of the IRB regulations, but those regulations are almost certainly a restraint of trade and therefore probably unenforceable."

Cohen's words were echoed by another of the Premiership's heavyweight officials, with Saracens chairman Nigel Wray insisting the RFU only has itself to blame.

"Certain terms have been offered that don't seem very attractive to me," Wray said. "The RFU are in a pretty embarrassing position because nobody in any other business would sign a binding contract without having spoken to the other people.

"There is no question that we would ever stop a young man playing for his country in a World Cup, but what the RFU shouldn't do is take advantage of that fact. They should agree proper compensation."

Read more at http://www.espnscrum.com/2015-rugby-world-cup/rugby/story/238737.html#qfVUZtR5dP1WyZRc.99

http://www.espn.co.uk/2015-rugby-world-cup/rugby/story/238737.html

I don't think anyones attacking the PRL for it's merits in this specific case, or attacking club rugby in general.

Someone mentioned above NZRU's little tantrum, and it is similar to this case, however I think the shocking part of this, or at least to me anyway is the timing in which this has been brought back up.

The furore over the new euro comp has just died down enough, and the KO is iminent, so the PRL who were instigators in how and what happened in that whole debacle , now decide it's time to take on their own governing body.

I know times running out, but there is such a thing as closed doors, theres no harm in being behind them for certain deals, but the PRL have found a succesfull technique to pile on the pressure and get what they want, it goes he who shouts loudest, and threatens most pretty much win.

Sin é
Could you show us the weeks that PRL teams are not going to have a match during the next season (Sep2014 to Jun2015) & then show us how losing the weeks that the WC being played would fit.

Neutralee wrote:I don't think anyones attacking the PRL for it's merits in this specific case, or attacking club rugby in general.

Someone mentioned above NZRU's little tantrum, and it is similar to this case, however I think the shocking part of this, or at least to me anyway is the timing in which this has been brought back up.

The furore over the new euro comp has just died down enough, and the KO is iminent, so the PRL who were instigators in how and what happened in that whole debacle , now decide it's time to take on their own governing body.

I know times running out, but there is such a thing as closed doors, theres no harm in being behind them for certain deals, but the PRL have found a succesfull technique to pile on the pressure and get what they want, it goes he who shouts loudest, and threatens most pretty much win.

That's because you clearly don't follow this stuff. It's been talked about plenty of times but it was background to the European stuff. Now the European stuff is signed the media are looking for something else to talk about. I'd have thought a neutral guy like yourself would be aware of how the media work.

Sin é To help you here is Tigers fixture list remembering that you have to fit in LV cup semi & final & Euro quarter/semi & final, dates have to be kept clear as a PRL team might qualify.
http://www.leicestertigers.com/rugby/1stxv_fixtures.php

HammerofThunor wrote:

Neutralee wrote:I don't think anyones attacking the PRL for it's merits in this specific case, or attacking club rugby in general.

Someone mentioned above NZRU's little tantrum, and it is similar to this case, however I think the shocking part of this, or at least to me anyway is the timing in which this has been brought back up.

The furore over the new euro comp has just died down enough, and the KO is iminent, so the PRL who were instigators in how and what happened in that whole debacle , now decide it's time to take on their own governing body.

I know times running out, but there is such a thing as closed doors, theres no harm in being behind them for certain deals, but the PRL have found a succesfull technique to pile on the pressure and get what they want, it goes he who shouts loudest, and threatens most pretty much win.

That's because you clearly don't follow this stuff. It's been talked about plenty of times but it was background to the European stuff. Now the European stuff is signed the media are looking for something else to talk about. I'd have thought a neutral guy like yourself would be aware of how the media work.

What has neutrality got to do with media studies?

The media havn't just pulled something out of thin air have they?

As I'm reading through there is a lot of 'demands' and 'compensations'.

Also I don't quite understand the logic, losing out on playing in September and October loses 5 months of income?

The clubs are being 'shut down'?

What about the increase in interest in the game, exposure of star players, access to the clubs? Is that not taken into account at all? Especially post RWC, when everyone is on a rugby buzz, November and December would surely be bumper months would they not?

broadlandboy wrote:Sin é To help you here is Tigers fixture list remembering that you have to fit in LV cup semi & final & Euro quarter/semi & final, dates have to be kept clear as a PRL team might qualify.
http://www.leicestertigers.com/rugby/1stxv_fixtures.php

I've said you should play your LV= cup games the same weekend as the European Cup games. From what I can see from previous years, Tigers use the LV= as a development competition so it should be no problem for Tigers who have a squad of 56 (45 senior players, the rest academy) to fullfill that fixture list.

As I've said many times before the Irish provinces field teams in the B&I Cup on Heineken Cup weekends and still manage to do well in both competitions.

Anyway, only Elite competition is not allowed be played during the world cup. The LV= would not qualify as that.

Apart from anything else, only 30 players out of 500 will be travelling to Australia for the summer tour. About 450 of them will not play any extra games and they will have started their season 6 weeks later.

Clubs get most of their income from the playing months (Sep to May) 9 months. Also the players playing in the WC are likely to need time off to recover & to reintegrate back so will not be available immediately for their clubs

broadlandboy wrote:Clubs get most of their income from the playing months (Sep to May) 9 months. Also the players playing in the WC are likely to need time off to recover & to reintegrate back so will not be available immediately for their clubs

No they don't. Tigers had sold 12K season tickets for next season last March.

All countries are going to have similar issues with reintegrating players after the world cup. Think how difficult it will be for the PRO12 teams - for Ireland - 30 players mainly coming from just 3 teams.

edit: the playing months are just delayed not done away with.

Sin é wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:Clubs get most of their income from the playing months (Sep to May) 9 months. Also the players playing in the WC are likely to need time off to recover & to reintegrate back so will not be available immediately for their clubs

No they don't. Tigers had sold 12K season tickets for next season last March.

All countries are going to have similar issues with reintegrating players after the world cup. Think how difficult it will be for the PRO12 teams - for Ireland - 30 players mainly coming from just 3 teams.

edit: the playing months are just delayed not done away with.

Thats what I thought, although in defence of English clubs it's not just English internationals that they lose, players from all over the world play in England. It's probably fair to say 5/6 players per team? Or is that not enough.

I see your point though, teams like Leinster lose 10+ players.

Sin é So the clubs should play through the 6N as well? Most LV games are played during an IW. Agree a possible compromise is for LV games to be played during the knockout stage of the WC but (I know you will not agree but there is a chance) if England do well chances are those players will not be available until the end of Nov at the earliest
The playing months are not delayed as England have a tour of Aus in June, if they were delayed would mean playing in June/July which would then mean the next season is messed about with as well, to get break in for player welfare & preseason
Yes they had sold the tickets & for most the money is paid each month but they are for games in the Season(Sep to May(yes I know preseason as well but how many are brought for those games))

broadlandboy wrote:Sin é So the clubs should play through the 6N as well? Most LV games are played during an IW. Agree a possible compromise is for LV games to be played during the knockout stage of the WC but (I know you will not agree but there is a chance) if England do well chances are those players will not be available until the end of Nov at the earliest
The playing months are not delayed as England have a tour of Aus in June, if they were delayed would mean playing in June/July which would then mean the next season is messed about with as well, to get break in for player welfare & preseason
Yes they had sold the tickets & for most the money is paid each month but they are for games in the Season(Sep to May(yes I know preseason as well but how many are brought for those games))

I don't see a problem in playing during the 6Ns. Even the PRO12 teams do that and their players are far more concentrated in fewer teams.

I would expect England to do well - but it is still only 23 players out of about 500 who will be delayed coming back.

The teams most affected will probably be Northampton (senior squad of 47) and Saracens (senior 41, Academy 7), Harlequins (seniors 43).

If England make the knock-out stages, it means that all non England internationals will be back at their clubs earlier than expected (i.e., Wales international - plenty of them in England, will have been knocked out by England).

I bet all the clubs will still be selling their season tickets the same time next spring!

As I've pointed out on numerous occasion, not all England internationals will be involved in the final. Can't England do something similar to what they did on their last summer tour to New Zealand - follow them out later. Use the games for development purposes.

To play the LV= at the same time with the Euro comp would mean fielding two squads of 23 in different cities on the same (or at least the same weekend). That's 46 players in total.

For the past few years, Quins have had a senior squad of 37 or 38 plus 10 in the academy; this year we have a total squad of 46 (according to offy - which seems to have a glitch as some academy players are listed among the seniors). There are a couple of larger squads (Tigers and I think Sarries), but most AP squads are similar size. At the moment - before the season has begun - Quins have 2 players long term injured and 2 with minor knocks.

And the whole flaming point of the LV= is to be a competition where clubs can give their more junior players game time while senior players are rested or away on International duty. Doubling up is not an option.

Sin e wrote:edit: the playing months are just delayed not done away with.

Inigo Montoya wrote:You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Poorfour wrote:To play the LV= at the same time with the Euro comp would mean fielding two squads of 23 in different cities on the same (or at least the same weekend). That's 46 players in total.

For the past few years, Quins have had a senior squad of 37 or 38 plus 10 in the academy; this year we have a total squad of 46 (according to offy - which seems to have a glitch as some academy players are listed among the seniors). There are a couple of larger squads (Tigers and I think Sarries), but most AP squads are similar size. At the moment - before the season has begun - Quins have 2 players long term injured and 2 with minor knocks.

Not wanting to get involved in the general argument, but Connacht could do it in the HC/B&I cup and they do not have massive playing resources.

Sometimes if Irish teams run out of Senior/Academy players, you get players drafted in from club rugby for B&I Cup. (AIL = Level below provincial)

Would (m)any English teams have this option?

Jenny, Saracens have feeder clubs all over the world

Poorfour - Harlequins have an amateur club - they can draw from that. (Barry O'Mahony now with Munster got a professional contract from filling in with Munster in the B&I Cup. He was playing for Clontarf (an amateur club in Dublin) at the time.

The Irish Provinces B&I team are generally playing in a different country to the senior. Different city would be a cakewalk in comparison.

| expect more than 23 players travel to cover last minute injuries.
Sin é so Jeff teams should raid the Championship teams who play in the B&I cup.

[heading quickly off topic]Leinster have drafted in 3 lads currently who played in Northampton last weekend.

Mick McGrath
Tyrone Moran
Jonathan Slattery

Last season we used Martin Kelly (who got a pro contract with Munster out of it)

Previously we had Leo Auva'a and Aaron Dundon both of whom got senior contracts with Leinster.[/heading quickly off topic]

broadlandboy wrote:| expect more than 23 players travel to cover last minute injuries.
Sin é so Jeff teams should raid the Championship teams who play in the B&I cup.

Yes they do. And sounds like a plan.

broadlandboy wrote:| expect more than 23 players travel to cover last minute injuries.
Sin é so Jeff teams should raid the Championship teams who play in the B&I cup.

No, you have a look at your amateur club.

Jenny, Mick McGrath (prop) is a qualified medical doctor (orthopaedics I think). Not bad going for a 24 year old.

Sin é wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:| expect more than 23 players travel to cover last minute injuries.
Sin é so Jeff teams should raid the Championship teams who play in the B&I cup.

No, you have a look at your amateur club.

Jenny, Mick McGrath (prop) is a qualified medical doctor (orthopaedics I think). Not bad going for a 24 year old.

Well that's your daftest suggestion yet. Quins Amateurs don't even play in a national league division. They play in Herts/Middlesex Division 2, which is about 6 league divisions below the AP. Amateur clubs in England are exactly that, despite the names they share with professional clubs. Raid the amateurs and just watch the lawsuits roll in.

Just waiting on the PRL to look to renegotiate the euro comp agreement to cover this massive squad they have to assemble.

Poorfour wrote:

Sin é wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:| expect more than 23 players travel to cover last minute injuries.
Sin é so Jeff teams should raid the Championship teams who play in the B&I cup.

No, you have a look at your amateur club.

Jenny, Mick McGrath (prop) is a qualified medical doctor (orthopaedics I think). Not bad going for a 24 year old.

Well that's your daftest suggestion yet. Quins Amateurs don't even play in a national league division. They play in Herts/Middlesex Division 2, which is about 6 league divisions below the AP. Amateur clubs in England are exactly that, despite the names they share with professional clubs. Raid the amateurs and just watch the lawsuits roll in.

Give us a break will ya. Tom McGrath was playing for Trinity which is DIV. 1B when he was selected for Leinster in the B&I Cup. Considering he managed to become a doctor and as a student doctor he probably works 100 hours a week, he wouldn't got a whole lot of time to spend building himself up in the gym.

Surely there must be some amateur club in the London area that could supply one or two players to get you out of a whole.

Just on the size of the academies, checking Munster - Munster have 20 in theirs, Leinster have 23, Ulster have 12 in their academy - maybe its something the Premiership should consider doing - developing some young English talent and play them in the LV= Cup.

Sin é wrote:Mick McGrath (prop) is a qualified medical doctor (orthopaedics I think). Not bad going for a 24 year old.

Sin é wrote:Tom McGrath was playing for Trinity which is DIV. 1B when he was selected for Leinster in the B&I Cup. Considering he managed to become a doctor and as a student doctor he probably works 100 hours a week, he wouldn't got a whole lot of time to spend building himself up in the gym.

Yer losing it Sin. Mick McGrath is a winger. Dunno who Tom McGrath is, but Martin Kelly is the Trinity prop you are referring to, who has now signed for Munster.

No, I won't give you a break, because you are either being obtuse or deliberately offensive. I'm not sure I care which.

From what I can see, Division 1B is one half of the level immediately below Provincial rugby in Ireland - i.e. roughly the equivalent of the step from the AP to the Championship (some of whose teams are semi-pro). Plenty of players have made that step and AP academy players regularly play for Championship clubs on dual registration. Raiding the Championship wouldn't be an issue except those players are generally committed to Championship clubs.

I'd estimate that the Provinces have roughly the top 200 players in Ireland and Div 1a and 1b have players from 201-1000 or so.

The AP has the top 600 or so players in England. The Championship has roughly the same. By the time you get down to Quins Amateurs you are down to somewhere around 8-10,000. That's an enormous gulf. If you seriously think a player can make a step up of that magnitude without a material risk of serious injury then I worry for anyone who might have the misfortune to be coached by you.

Sin é wrote:NZ were not co-hosting the world cup in 2003

I'm not sure why you think the naming is relevant. Unless you believe that anything below the status of host or co-host justifies what the IRB later described as "wholly inappropriate behaviour".

As expected agreement reached. Clearly not a straightforward set of measures agreed but good news all round.


http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_9478102,00.html