Ospreys season thread 2014-15

by The Saint Tue 26 Aug 2014, 3:44 pm

First topic message reminder :

Will Ospreys be worst team in Wales 2014-15?

Outside of some fairly decent signings (Bernardo, Matavesi, Roberts), and their inspiring captain (AWJ) the Ospreys squad looks very average and the first team could struggle to be within the top 6 of the Guinness Pro12. Squad: http://www.ospreysrugby.com/Teams/Squad/Ospreys. Do Ospreys fans believe little was done when Ryan/Adam Jones, Hibbard declared intentions to move? I think the current squad has potential, but the current coaches will neither develop them or get the best out of them when it comes to the field of play, I think Tandy is the worst pro rugby coach in Wales and quite possibly all of Europe. The departures of the senior players will do little to help either.

Dragons have a slightly better squad this term and are lead by a good coaching panel, as are the Scarlets and Blues. The Blues also have built quite a formidable squad and look the most likely to be winning silverware this season. This is why I can see Ospreys being the worst performing team in the 2014/15 season. To go from the team most likely to win silverware for a No. of years to potentially the worst is unforgivable.

by The Saint Sat 13 Dec 2014, 6:53 pm

High penalty count against Racing but it should be higher IMO! The amount of crossing that French teams get away with in France is astonishing.

by The Saint Sat 13 Dec 2014, 7:03 pm

Sam Davies is a good example of Ospreys squad depth. Poor player.

by whocares Sat 13 Dec 2014, 7:04 pm

Some good wumming Saint. garner giving the spreys an undeserved chance to win that by forgetting half of their infringements in that 2H. What did you guys offered him at HT?

by The Saint Sat 13 Dec 2014, 7:08 pm

whocares wrote:Some good wumming Saint. garner giving the spreys an undeserved chance to win that by forgetting half of their infringements in that 2H. What did you guys offered him at HT?

It's a lot to do with French rugby culture and the scarcity of having quality refs who aren't intimidated by vast and bitter crowds.

I should congratulate your team though, they look as if they'll be making the KO stages for the first time. Well done.

by No9 Sat 13 Dec 2014, 7:12 pm

Far too many forward passes by Racing went unnoticed as well.

But saying that, in the end Ospreys only have themselves to blame. Again this week, they let Racing build up a lead only go have to chase it.

Os have struggled in this comp this year, following Northampton taking them apart.

Oh well, there's still the Pro12 to play for...

by whocares Sat 13 Dec 2014, 7:23 pm

The Saint wrote:
whocares wrote:Some good wumming Saint. garner giving the spreys an undeserved chance to win that by forgetting half of their infringements in that 2H. What did you guys offered him at HT?

It's a lot to do with French rugby culture and the scarcity of having quality refs who aren't intimidated by vast and bitter crowds.

I should congratulate your team though, they look as if they'll be making the KO stages for the first time. Well done.

1) am not a racing fan but thanks anyway although I doubt they can beat Northanpton
2) the average french ref is usually a big homer but probably not worst than having english refs officiating in Welsh-french games. Only SHs or Irish refs (bar clancy) should be allowed to ref french clubs.

by DeludedOptimistorjustDave Sat 13 Dec 2014, 7:27 pm

The amount of obstruction around the ruck and around the player with the ball in loose play was worrying then deliberate knock on whilst in the Racing 22 was a clear ploy that could have warranted endless yellow cards.
All that aside thou the Ospreys failed to use the penalties they got wisely and kick for goal.

by The Saint Sat 13 Dec 2014, 7:45 pm

whocares wrote:
The Saint wrote:
whocares wrote:Some good wumming Saint. garner giving the spreys an undeserved chance to win that by forgetting half of their infringements in that 2H. What did you guys offered him at HT?

It's a lot to do with French rugby culture and the scarcity of having quality refs who aren't intimidated by vast and bitter crowds.

I should congratulate your team though, they look as if they'll be making the KO stages for the first time. Well done.
1) am not a racing fan but thanks anyway although I doubt they can beat Northanpton
2) the average french ref is usually a big homer but probably not worst than having english refs officiating in Welsh-french games. Only SHs or Irish refs (bar clancy) should be allowed to ref french clubs.

My mistake. Stade Francais fan?

by HammerofThunor Sat 13 Dec 2014, 8:18 pm

He's Clermont or someone further south, I think. Not exactly naturally enamoured with Parisians, from memory.

by whocares Sat 13 Dec 2014, 8:59 pm

Am further south west and my team plays in the challenge cup (hint: they lost to the "worst" Scottish side at home)

by The Saint Sat 13 Dec 2014, 9:36 pm

I can't remember if that was Bordeaux or Lyon. Would love to visit both some time though... Hint hint whocares, sleepover?

by whocares Sat 13 Dec 2014, 9:44 pm

Well Lyon is south east so UBB it is

by VinceWLB Sun 14 Dec 2014, 11:48 am

Tough luck Ospreys you showed how to play against a big heavy pack, Racing forwards were out on their feet after the hour mark. With Baker and Nicky Smith you would have won both fixtures.
Arhip is an amazing scrummager, so far in my pro 12 team of the year, if you can keep him fit you should reach the playoffs.

That said not sure Lydiate will improve the team much, King is a great proper blindside with extremely high workrate.

by The Saint Sun 14 Dec 2014, 12:48 pm

VinceWLB wrote:
That said not sure Lydiate will improve the team much, King is a great proper blindside with extremely high workrate.

Disgagree, Lydiate should bring depth to the team, Ospreys need that given their injury rate lately. DL showed up well, a lot better than I expected in the autumn. His work rate should be as high, if not higher than that of King's. I also find King can be too hit or miss.

I have to agree with one of your other points, the Ospreys are on their way to building a good squad. I just think there are a few positions in the backs that desperately need cover.

by bedfordwelsh Sun 14 Dec 2014, 3:41 pm

I have never seen what others do in King for me he not International standard and not in same league as Lydiate my opinion of course.

by wayne Sun 14 Dec 2014, 5:32 pm

Vince, good article, Saint, I don't know what King has done to you, except possibly keep a couple of your players Coombs and Evans out of the Welsh squad, when they are so clearly inferior is beyond me.
BW, King made well over 10 tackles yesterday missing 1, 3 or 4 of those tackles were made in the wide channels, somewhere Lydiate is never seen, he is a strong lineout option something Dan has never been, he carried more often yesterday and made more yards than Dan did in 4 matches last month, Dan made 1 metre in 4 internationals in the Autumn, we (Ospreys) normally use 2 of our back row as lineout options, yesterday we actually used all 3, I don't think we have ever used Baker as the target, so Dan will have to be utilised in some of the other things that King excels at, I don't think King will ever get to the tackling standards of Dan, it could be a matter of horses for courses, we have to use our back row as we cannot use AWJ on a regular basis when he is our middle jumper as he is not that tall.

by The Saint Sun 14 Dec 2014, 5:49 pm

Wayne, only you would see me stating that Lydiate could add value to Ospreys squad depth as an attack on James King, how stupid picard

. The only person who has ever kept Lewis Evans out of the Wales team is Pretorious, explain that one if you can. Also, I think King has been quite hit and miss throughout his career, don't know why you would call me up on it and not Bedford. Maybe you're just pro-King, which is odd.

by The Saint Sun 14 Dec 2014, 5:55 pm

Wayne, some interesting stats for you here. Versus SA, Lydiate ran with ball 6 times and made 3 metres (lower than any other forward apart from Lee and Jarvis), so not sure where you ever get the idea Dan made 1 metre in 4 AI matches. In that game he also made 16 tackles, missed 3.
http://www.espn.co.uk/statsguru/rugby/match/217023.html

by wayne Sun 14 Dec 2014, 6:03 pm

Saint you said that Lydiate has as high a work rate as King, he clearly hasn't as I've clearly shown, being a 6 and only being a tackling option close to ruck and maul and nothing else, I'm afraid will not be good enough, if he carries on in that frame, the number of games he will play for us will be a lot less than the 16 that is the supposed to be the Gatland, the one good thing about this whole episode is that now he will have a decent coaching team and will learn these other attributes.

by The Saint Sun 14 Dec 2014, 6:20 pm

No, clearly I've shown that he has by just providing you with those stats. His tackling was better against Australia. If you think he has limitations then it's up to your coaches to improve his all-round game.He'd probably be good off the bench if you're trying to defend a lead.

by wayne Sun 14 Dec 2014, 6:32 pm

The Saint wrote:Wayne, some interesting stats for you here. Versus SA, Lydiate ran with ball 6 times and made 3 metres (lower than any other forward apart from Lee and Jarvis), so not sure where you ever get the idea Dan made 1 metre in 4 AI matches. In that game he also made 16 tackles, missed 3.
http://www.espn.co.uk/statsguru/rugby/match/217023.html

Saint, those quotes were taken from a link on our forum at the end of the AIs, there is a topic on our forum of 29 pages each with 15 responses, I thought it was on that, I can't find it, so I'll back down on that, even though it is there somewhere, his effectiveness as a carrier is surely shown with in that game 6 Carries and metres gained 3, so he either made a half a metre per carry or was knocked back in most and had one or two decent carries, King is much more effective.

by The Saint Sun 14 Dec 2014, 6:53 pm

Pick n drives around the ruck could explain that, generally they don't make much ground and are used to run the clock down.

by wayne Sun 14 Dec 2014, 7:18 pm

The Saint wrote:Pick n drives around the ruck could explain that, generally they don't make much ground and are used to run the clock down.

Tell me something Saint, when Dan and Toby were being touted to get in the Welsh team a few years back to replace among others Ryan Jones and Jonathan Thomas what was his main attributes at that time, was it just his tackling or was he prominent in other facets of back row play, I'd like some input from other posters as well.

by bedfordwelsh Sun 14 Dec 2014, 8:08 pm

wayne wrote:Vince, good article, Saint, I don't know what King has done to you, except possibly keep a couple of your players Coombs and Evans out of the Welsh squad, when they are so clearly inferior is beyond me.
BW, King made well over 10 tackles yesterday missing 1, 3 or 4 of those tackles were made in the wide channels, somewhere Lydiate is never seen, he is a strong lineout option something Dan has never been, he carried more often yesterday and made more yards than Dan did in 4 matches last month, Dan made 1 metre in 4 internationals in the Autumn, we (Ospreys) normally use 2 of our back row as lineout options, yesterday we actually used all 3, I don't think we have ever used Baker as the target, so Dan will have to be utilised in some of the other things that King excels at, I don't think King will ever get to the tackling standards of Dan, it could be a matter of horses for courses, we have to use our back row as we cannot use AWJ on a regular basis when he is our middle jumper as he is not that tall.

All those stats may well be the case and not denying them but Wales don't use Lydiate like that and doubt they would use King like it either. They use him almost exclusively as tackler and not much else and in that role he excels.

If King does get on the field for Wales and proves me wrong then I will be first to admit I was but until then I would still pick Lydiate as our No6 every time.

by wayne Sun 14 Dec 2014, 8:25 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:
wayne wrote:Vince, good article, Saint, I don't know what King has done to you, except possibly keep a couple of your players Coombs and Evans out of the Welsh squad, when they are so clearly inferior is beyond me.
BW, King made well over 10 tackles yesterday missing 1, 3 or 4 of those tackles were made in the wide channels, somewhere Lydiate is never seen, he is a strong lineout option something Dan has never been, he carried more often yesterday and made more yards than Dan did in 4 matches last month, Dan made 1 metre in 4 internationals in the Autumn, we (Ospreys) normally use 2 of our back row as lineout options, yesterday we actually used all 3, I don't think we have ever used Baker as the target, so Dan will have to be utilised in some of the other things that King excels at, I don't think King will ever get to the tackling standards of Dan, it could be a matter of horses for courses, we have to use our back row as we cannot use AWJ on a regular basis when he is our middle jumper as he is not that tall.

All those stats may well be the case and not denying them but Wales don't use Lydiate like that and doubt they would use King like it either. They use him almost exclusively as tackler and not much else and in that role he excels.

If King does get on the field for Wales and proves me wrong then I will be first to admit I was but until then I would still pick Lydiate as our No6 every time.

BW, for the kind of game that Wales play I also would pick Dan and Sam over King and Tips, for our gameplan I would prefer our two, do you honestly think that Sam W would have had the speed to set up that try for Matavesi in our draw last weekend, he ran between 2 of their backs

by Guest Sun 14 Dec 2014, 9:11 pm

wayne wrote:
The Saint wrote:Pick n drives around the ruck could explain that, generally they don't make much ground and are used to run the clock down.
Tell me something Saint, when Dan and Toby were being touted to get in the Welsh team a few years back to replace among others Ryan Jones and Jonathan Thomas what was his main attributes at that time, was it just his tackling or was he prominent in other facets of back row play, I'd like some input from other posters as well.

At the time, it was proven that Jones and Thomas were far from the form that first earned them a Welsh call up, the entire backrow were ineffective from around late 2008-2011 until Warburton and co made their marks.

by bedfordwelsh Mon 15 Dec 2014, 5:23 am

IM,

The one thing I noticed then that affected Jones the most is that his 6 & 7 were inaffective and he was trying to do the job of 6 and 8, I still think and have said for sometime now that our current Welsh backrow is the best combo largely due to the fact they compliment each other so well allowing each other to concentrate on their part of the game.

by wayne Mon 15 Dec 2014, 10:59 am

Thanks for the responses Mike and BW, I know that JT was shown to be only effective in the lineout department, when Gatland took over or very soon after JT was the lineout captain for Wales, I remember having a conversation with him and asked how he was enjoying this privilige, he said he wasn't as it was so much more complex with Wales than with us, as for Ryan he had had some serious shoulder injuries and IIRC had had surgery on it, the thing about covering for a poor 7, I think is wrong Martyn Williams was playing there and there wasn't a more consistent 7 in the NH at that time, neither of you have answered my question, was Dan Lydiate doing anything extra at the time? or was it just the tackling, as I said earlier JT in my eyes was mainly in the team just for his lineout expertise which wasn't enough, and yes this back row is extremely well balanced, yet for me the best performance for many a year for a Wales back row was when we thrashed England 30-3 and that was WRUburton, Tipuric and Faletau, IIRC that trio hasn't started a game together since. WHY?

by Guest Mon 15 Dec 2014, 1:59 pm

wayne wrote: Thanks for the responses Mike and BW, I know that JT was shown to be only effective in the lineout department, when Gatland took over or very soon after JT was the lineout captain for Wales, I remember having a conversation with him and asked how he was enjoying this privilige, he said he wasn't as it was so much more complex with Wales than with us, as for Ryan he had had some serious shoulder injuries and IIRC had had surgery on it, the thing about covering for a poor 7, I think is wrong Martyn Williams was playing there and there wasn't a more consistent 7 in the NH at that time, neither of you have answered my question, was Dan Lydiate doing anything extra at the time? or was it just the tackling, as I said earlier JT in my eyes was mainly in the team just for his lineout expertise which wasn't enough, and yes this back row is extremely well balanced, yet for me the best performance for many a year for a Wales back row was when we thrashed England 30-3 and that was WRUburton, Tipuric and Faletau, IIRC that trio hasn't started a game together since. WHY?

I think the combination of Lydiate, Warburton and Faletau was the best we had during the 2011 world cup, bare in mind that this backrow got the better of SA's backrow of Burger, Brussouw and Spies as well as the Irish backrow of Ferris, O'Brien and Heaslip. But I haven't seen them play as well as a unit since. Lydiate would chop them down, Warburton would jackle and Faletau would punch holes and link up with the backs.

by ScarletSpiderman Mon 15 Dec 2014, 2:23 pm

I honestly think that Lydaite, Tipuric and Baker backrow combination could/should work well. Lydiate to put them down, Tips to win the ball and Baker to go storming off up the field with ball in hand. And if/when they are proven effective as a combination at regional level, then IMO that would be the best option for Wales, three players who know each others game well.

by The Saint Mon 15 Dec 2014, 3:28 pm

There's no way in hell that on recent form Tips will be displacing Warburton in team Wales.

by Welly Mon 15 Dec 2014, 3:36 pm

The Saint wrote:There's no way in hell that on recent form Tips will be displacing Warburton in team Wales.

If rumors happen he will be in Leicester next season anyway. Wink

by ScarletSpiderman Mon 15 Dec 2014, 3:41 pm

Welly wrote:
The Saint wrote:There's no way in hell that on recent form Tips will be displacing Warburton in team Wales.

If rumors happen he will be in Leicester next season anyway.

Really hope all the Rugby Paper stories are based on agents trying to force through DCs for their players.

by Welly Mon 15 Dec 2014, 3:43 pm

IMO it is.

agents looking at high profile clubs with players leaving in that position and linking them to the club.

Although if some of these players don't get DC by the 6N it may be different.

by ScarletSpiderman Mon 15 Dec 2014, 3:46 pm

Welly wrote:IMO it is.

agents looking at high profile clubs with players leaving in that position and linking them to the club.

Although if some of these players don't get DC by the 6N it may be different.

Yep, and to be fair if they don't get offered them by that time, I think we will all full understand their move and back them (well, you know what I mean)

by Allty Mon 15 Dec 2014, 5:03 pm

[quote="Welly"][quote="The Saint"]There's no way in hell that on recent form Tips will be displacing Warburton in team Wales. [/quote]

If rumors happen he will be in Leicester next season anyway. Wink

[/quote]

Is that Tips to Tigers Welly?

by The Saint Mon 15 Dec 2014, 5:06 pm

I read that it was Tigers too. Tips was on Gatland's original list of DC players anyway, so they'll be looking to finalise an agreement before the end of the year. If not, it's Ospreys loss. I feel Navidi should be promoted to team Wales if Tips does depart.

by Guest Mon 15 Dec 2014, 7:00 pm

I hope Tips doesn't go, hes far too talented to lose at this stage in his career.

by bedfordwelsh Tue 16 Dec 2014, 5:22 am

THing is we won't lose them, with the odd exception all those who have gone out of Wales to play rugby have still been involved with the National set up.

Yes Gatland wants more access to them, yes DCs will stop some going but not but come International time then clubs HAVE to release them for the periods dictated by the IRB (or whatever they called now).

I know clubs want to hold onto star players and rightly so but at the end of the day its a job now rather than a hobby so if they don't get a DC and another club comes in an offers more money then most will go.

by Welly Tue 16 Dec 2014, 10:20 am

Allty wrote:
Welly wrote:
The Saint wrote:There's no way in hell that on recent form Tips will be displacing Warburton in team Wales.

If rumors happen he will be in Leicester next season anyway.

Is that Tips to Tigers Welly?

Yeh as a replacement for Salvi (Who is rumoured to be off)

We are also linked still with Liam Williams, although reports say he is on the DC list so I guess it may be how much.

Priestland sounds like he may well be off to bath.

Scarlets may well be in a situation where Priestland Leaves and Williams stays at Leicester.

Interesting times in Wales.

by LordDowlais Tue 16 Dec 2014, 2:53 pm

I would be very surprised if Tipps left the Ospreys, he would be one of the first to be offered a DC, if Leicester want him, then he would have to be one of their marquee signings.

by Welly Tue 16 Dec 2014, 2:56 pm

LordDowlais wrote:I would be very surprised if Tipps left the Ospreys, he would be one of the first to be offered a DC, if Leicester want him, then he would have to be one of their marquee signings.

Haven't Wales already given the first lot of players DC's?

So he isn't one of the first.

I guess it depends how much money the WRU has and if Gats wants to invest in his Favourites a lot more.

Also believe that Salvi is on a very very good wage packet (From what I heard).

by HammerofThunor Tue 16 Dec 2014, 3:06 pm

Only two been confirmed as far as I'm aware (Warburton and Lidiate). One moved across from his central contract and the other was out of contract. No-one (that I'm aware of) that was on a regional contract has signed up to a dual contract as of yet. Someone mentioned something about details being banged out between the regions and WRU.

by ScarletSpiderman Tue 16 Dec 2014, 3:39 pm

Thunor, supposedly according to Gats (and Lyn Jones has said about it too), contracts were handed out during the AIs to players that we on the first batch. They expected them signed up by end of Nov, with possibility of a few more being handed out now, expecting them signed up by new year. I'm guessing players are getting the contracts checked with a fine tooth comb to ensure the union don't try to shaft them.

by GavinDragon Tue 16 Dec 2014, 4:10 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Thunor, supposedly according to Gats (and Lyn Jones has said about it too), contracts were handed out during the AIs to players that we on the first batch. They expected them signed up by end of Nov, with possibility of a few more being handed out now, expecting them signed up by new year. I'm guessing players are getting the contracts checked with a fine tooth comb to ensure the union don't try to shaft them.

or agents are negotiating their players higher salaries and in turn themselves higher fees

by The Saint Tue 16 Dec 2014, 4:34 pm

WRU may as well save themselves money by not offering AWJ, S.Williams, Biggar and some others DCs as they have signed with their regions long-term. The clubs will be happy too as they can play these players as often as they want, the Ospreys boys in particular play a lot of games.

by LordDowlais Wed 17 Dec 2014, 12:00 pm

Looks like the Ospreys are now in talks with Justin Tipuric:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/30513817

by Welly Wed 17 Dec 2014, 12:03 pm

No mention of a Duel contract yet though. Wink

If he doesn't get a DC WRU needs to be looked at IMO.

by LordDowlais Wed 17 Dec 2014, 12:15 pm

He might not want a DC, I know players like AWJ do not like being told how often they can play, some players like to play as much as they can.

by wayne Sun 21 Dec 2014, 2:19 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:
wayne wrote: the 2nd Ulster game is after the RCC games and we should be at full strength, we have to expect to win that even though it will not be easy,

Ospreys 10 Ulster 15 - you could put money on it

Well, I hope you didn't put your hard earned cash on them, and I said earlier I was hoping for 5 points from those 3 games, we actually had 6.

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