Indy Ref

by **Notch** Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:09 pm

First topic message reminder :

George Carlin wrote: v
Let me start this off, then. I have printed and read all literature which either side has published on this debate over the past 2 years (including the main policy papers from the SNP and from Better Together/UK Treasury and the Wee Blue Book).

If I had the chance, I would think hard about it, but ultimately I think that I would vote 'no'.

It seems to me, with my pea brain, that:

1. As a professional economist, Alex Salmond has had his entire political and professional life to make a waterproof financial case for an independent Scotland. Provided that there isn't something I've missed, I cannot see that he has done so. How can we still be fishing for answers to very fundemental questions so close to the actual voting date? Surely if it was the case that Scotland had a solid long term financial future, there would be a far greater volume of published consensus? If the financial case for independence cannot be clearly and verifiably made (without optimistic financial projects which strain credulity), then this is where this debate begins and ends for me. What do we tell our kids otherwise?

2. I entirely understand and appreciate that stepping into the unknown cannot in itself be a reason to say 'no'. You cannot have opportunity without risk. However, is anyone else disappointed with the quality of verifiable information that has been made available to us throughout this entire debate? Whilst I don't expect all answers to all questions, surely it is better to err on the side of caution until such time as policy can be firmly established.

If this was a trial, the verdict would be 'not proven'.

What I don't believe is if Scotland votes no, the chance to do so again would be lost forever. I think that we may see another vote on this topic within a generation (20 years) if a 'no' vote does not have a clear majority amongst Scottish people. I would be happy with that.

Discuss. For the love of feck, please be nice.

by **Notch** Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:31 pm

SecretFly wrote:It's back to the assumption that educated people vote No and dumb schits vote Yes.

Like I said a few days ago, the No camp should have used the Yes voters idiotic non-intellectualism against them and told them to vote No if they wanted Yes. The Yes voters look dumb enough to try it

Education doesn't always count for much at all. The best way to discern that is to get educated. But if you're interested this makes interesting reading.

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/news/majority-of-scottish-academics-set-to-vote-no-in-referendum/2015688.article

by **RDW** Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:35 pm

Salmond can't lose - if it's a No vote he can go on about how he managed to get more powers for the Scottish government, and that he tried his best!

by **Notch** Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:41 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Salmond can't lose - if it's a No vote he can go on about how he managed to get more powers for the Scottish government, and that he tried his best!

The SNP will have achieved their function if the vote is YES. There will have started a process of realignment that may make themselves obsolete.

by SecretFly Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:47 pm

Notch wrote:
Education doesn't always count for much at all. The best way to discern that is to get educated. But if you're interested this makes interesting reading.

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/news/majority-of-scottish-academics-set-to-vote-no-in-referendum/2015688.article

Well that's staff academics in career defining mode of choices choices and funding funding. It isn't a survey of the undergraduates though, who are also 'intelligent' and 'educated', outnumber the staff and prefer to think of Friday night drinks than funding funding....

by SecretFly Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:53 pm

Notch wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Salmond can't lose - if it's a No vote he can go on about how he managed to get more powers for the Scottish government, and that he tried his best!

The SNP will have achieved their function if the vote is YES. There will have started a process of realignment that may make themselves obsolete.

I've thought about that too last night.

Right now, the Labour guys (that Jim Murphy most especially) are saying the risks are too much, it's not viable, it shouldn't happen, Scots shouldn't burden themselves with the efforts required to make it work, it's ridiculous to try it, etc etc.
In other word, right now Labour are saying it's madness to choose Independence and Scotland will crumble under the strains of being alone.

Tomorrow, if the Yes vote carries, Jim and his mates will be talking with a different accent - claiming they alone now must be given control of the new Scotland to make sure Independence works for all the people and by God, Labour knows it can work and they can make the new Scotland Great!!!

But not yet - for now, the idea of Independence is laughable.

by HammerofThunor Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:55 pm

55% of the academics voting NO. Not really that different to the general polls. Also, about 15% are voting YES even though it might not be good for Scottish universities.

by **Notch** Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:13 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:55% of the academics voting NO. Not really that different to the general polls. Also, about 15% are voting YES even though it might not be good for Scottish universities.

Lets not put Academics up on a pedestal. They're not that different to anyone else. That they are Academics is just a very small part of their motivation. I would be much more interested if there was a big variance. There isn't but the arts vs sciences debate is very interesting.

by **Notch** Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:15 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Notch wrote:
Education doesn't always count for much at all. The best way to discern that is to get educated. But if you're interested this makes interesting reading.

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/news/majority-of-scottish-academics-set-to-vote-no-in-referendum/2015688.article

Well that's staff academics in career defining mode of choices choices and funding funding. It isn't a survey of the undergraduates though, who are also 'intelligent' and 'educated', outnumber the staff and prefer to think of Friday night drinks than funding funding....

Friday night drinks need funding too. God knows they need funding.

by Sin é Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:01 pm

Notch wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:55% of the academics voting NO. Not really that different to the general polls. Also, about 15% are voting YES even though it might not be good for Scottish universities.

Lets not put Academics up on a pedestal. They're not that different to anyone else. That they are Academics is just a very small part of their motivation. I would be much more interested if there was a big variance. There isn't but the arts vs sciences debate is very interesting.

This will take them down a peg or two Very Happy

I love the bit when they say if there is a Yes vote they were emigrating to Wales because there are too many immigrants in England Very Happy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmGjiokfQ2A

by SecretFly Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:18 pm

Hmmmm................... Lord.D will be asking his First Minister to close Welsh borders forthwith to make sure those two boys don't get in. And I think we might want to close our borders too just to be safe.

And France might want to close down their coast too just for a few weeks.... can't be too careful.

by HammerofThunor Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:32 pm

Notch wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:55% of the academics voting NO. Not really that different to the general polls. Also, about 15% are voting YES even though it might not be good for Scottish universities.

Lets not put Academics up on a pedestal. They're not that different to anyone else. That they are Academics is just a very small part of their motivation. I would be much more interested if there was a big variance. There isn't but the arts vs sciences debate is very interesting.

I didn't think I was putting them on a pedestal. I was making the point it's not massively different to the general population, I.e. They're the same as everyone else. Also, they're clearly voting for what they feel is best, not the one they see as best for the university (at least 15% of the YES are).

Regarding Arts v Science, well the point about grants is pretty apt. Science needs money to do proper work. Fannying about with paint and making stuff up about history is cheaper, therefore less dependant on expensive grants. Have I made the bias clear enlighten there:)

by HammerofThunor Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:35 pm

Just watched the video sin. Sorry guys, I didn't know you were all living on the streets. Good job there's wifi all over the place now. Chin up, I'm sure you'll find a house soon.

by quinsforever Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:52 pm

Sin é wrote:
Notch wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:55% of the academics voting NO. Not really that different to the general polls. Also, about 15% are voting YES even though it might not be good for Scottish universities.

Lets not put Academics up on a pedestal. They're not that different to anyone else. That they are Academics is just a very small part of their motivation. I would be much more interested if there was a big variance. There isn't but the arts vs sciences debate is very interesting.

This will take them down a peg or two

I love the bit when they say if there is a Yes vote they were emigrating to Wales because there are too many immigrants in England

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmGjiokfQ2A

that is a terrible video. it's borat-like in how uncomfortable it is to watch.

by Sin é Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:04 pm

HoT - we hid it well alright. Thank God they forgot to turn off the tinternet when they all left!

by **Notch** Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:16 pm

Whatever happens, its brilliant the way this referendum has brought people together. I mean that genuinely. I've not seen people come together in such a wonderful fashion on this forum for a very long time.

by whocares Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:27 pm

SecretFly wrote:Hmmmm................... Lord.D will be asking his First Minister to close Welsh borders forthwith to make sure those two boys don't get in. And I think we might want to close our borders too just to be safe.

And France might want to close down their coast too just for a few weeks.... can't be too careful.

They look ok and should fit nicely around here although I couldnt quite understand the lad with the england shirt.

by SecretFly Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:31 pm

whocares wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Hmmmm................... Lord.D will be asking his First Minister to close Welsh borders forthwith to make sure those two boys don't get in. And I think we might want to close our borders too just to be safe.

And France might want to close down their coast too just for a few weeks.... can't be too careful.

They look ok and should fit nicely around here although I couldnt quite understand the lad with the england shirt.

Thanks for offering them a home, whocares... I was getting concerned for them.

But I have a feeling they won't have to pack their bags anyway... for another decade or so anyway.

by aucklandlaurie Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:37 pm

Notch wrote:Whatever happens, its brilliant the way this referendum has brought people together. I mean that genuinely. I've not seen people come together in such a wonderful fashion on this forum for a very long time.

I agree Notch, I have sat back and enjoyed the discussion that has flowed, (even though Ive been somewhat reluctant to join in, mainly due to fear of displaying my ignorance).

If in time Wales were to also follow suit and go it alone,then its only a matter of time when the only countries with a Union Jack on their flag will be Australia, New Zealand, a few Pacific Islands and England.

by **Notch** Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:44 pm

It's the feeling of hope that influences me.

by aucklandlaurie Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:46 pm

As in hope for the forum?

by **Notch** Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:48 pm

No, just general hope in the collective madness of democracy in action.

by quinsforever Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:49 pm

Notch wrote:Whatever happens, its brilliant the way this referendum has brought people together. I mean that genuinely. I've not seen people come together in such a wonderful fashion on this forum for a very long time.

some dont respect Unions, some dont respect clubs organisations like the PRL and LNR.

seems like almost everyone doesnt respect politicians.

but we all respect democracy and our individual inalienable right to choose without fear of persecution.

i know everyone is predicting a NO, but i have this sneaking suspicion that tomorrow morning we are going to wake up to a YES and i honestly have no idea whats going to happen next. genuinely exciting.

by TJ Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:49 pm

quinsforever wrote:jeesus. you guys are relentless.

how many medal at olympics does ireland get.

GB has one of the most successful elite sport development programs in the world. everyone is attempting to copy it. Of course Scots athletes are terrified of a YES vote.

Scotland could choose to have a lottery. awesome. the problem is the cost of accessing an elite program comparable with rUK's which has 10x the population. which sports do they choose to focus on with 1/10th of the budget?

the point is absolutely incontrovertible.

Bogus point ;-)

check the numbers of Scots medal winners at the olympics. twice as many per head of population than the rest of the UK. We had around 1/10th of the athleletes so sounds like 1/10th of the budget will be fine.

by **Notch** Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:50 pm

Well said Quins. I feel like its going to be a YES too.

by SecretFly Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:53 pm

You should have joined in auckland.

Yes, you would have been told you're talking crap at times! Wink

but..................... well, weren't we all told that at some point in this debate!!!!

It's been a lot of fun for me...but I also realise and respect the fact that it's not all 'fun' for others - both Scottish Yes and No people and indeed the other people from UK. For them, it's potentially only the beginning of a long day's journey into the unknown.

But the point is - I trust them all to work it out, whichever way the vote goes. I trust them all to negotiate a new way that will serve all and might even re-invigorate everyone - the UK and Scotland. As many commentators on TV have said, many of them haven't quite seen anything like it before in terms of everyone, young and old, wanting to talk about and have a say and express their opinions in a political way, perhaps the first time.

by TJ Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:53 pm

Notch wrote:Whatever happens, its brilliant the way this referendum has brought people together. I mean that genuinely. I've not seen people come together in such a wonderful fashion on this forum for a very long time.

Indeed - my mother was walking to go and stand outside a polling station. Got chatting to a man walking the same way. Discovered he was out to do the same for the other side. As they parted to different stations he shook her hand they wished each other luck.

The level of political engagement and debate has been quite incredible. Its a serious decision and people have taken it seriously. Its remained by and large well mannered. Its a credit to the people of Scotland and I am sure they will treat the result no matter the outcome in the same spirit.

by aucklandlaurie Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:55 pm

Notch,There is no madness in domcracy in action, the collective madness is the contribution of the politicians and those that are unable to make prudent decisions.

by TJ Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:55 pm

quinsforever wrote:

i know everyone is predicting a NO, but i have this sneaking suspicion that tomorrow morning we are going to wake up to a YES and i honestly have no idea whats going to happen next. genuinely exciting.

It hangs on two big things as far as I can see. How big is that group of silent Nos, and who have all those new voters voted for. I wouldn't like to guess but I hope its decisive either way

by ME-109 Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:59 pm

Sadly I spent some time looking at all the different polls and found that the majority of them were only sampling >18 in terms of age. Those that sampled included the 16+ range were a lot closer but also had a higher % of "Dont Knows".

While the outcome points to a "No" vote based on the totality of Polls there is a big unknown with the 16+ range plus the 1million new voters.

by aucklandlaurie Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:00 pm

SecretFly wrote:You should have joined in auckland.

Yes, you would have been told you're talking crap at times! but..................... well, weren't we all told that at some point in this debate!!!!

It's been a lot of fun for me...but I also realise and respect the fact that it's not all 'fun' for others - both Scottish Yes and No people and indeed the other people from UK. For them, it's potentially only the beginning of a long day's journey into the unknown.

But the point is - I trust them all to work it out, whichever way the vote goes. I trust them all to negotiate a new way that will serve all and might even re-invigorate everyone - the UK and Scotland. As many commentators on TV have said, many of them haven't quite seen anything like it before in terms of everyone, young and old, wanting to talk about and have a say and express their opinions in a political way, perhaps the first time.

Fly I usually get told that every time I come on here and talk about rugby.

And on the point - Even if the answer comes back NO, I have a sneaky suspicion that the Yes team will be the better off .

by SecretFly Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:02 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:Notch,There is no madness in domcracy in action, the collective madness is the contribution of the politicians and those that are unable to make prudent decisions.

I think Notch means the unknowability factor of where this is going. Yes it's ordered and it's democracy and people are voting for what they think their future will be. But the votes aren't in yet, nobody knows the percentages yet and nobody truly knows what the final outcomes will be structurally between Scotland and the rest of the UK. The vote is only the beginning, and the story has still to be told in full. The 'madness' is kinda like its a gamble...throwing a dice and seeing what will happen. And that is kinda exciting - risky!!! - but exciting.

by quinsforever Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:03 pm

TJ wrote:
quinsforever wrote:jeesus. you guys are relentless.

how many medal at olympics does ireland get.

GB has one of the most successful elite sport development programs in the world. everyone is attempting to copy it. Of course Scots athletes are terrified of a YES vote.

Scotland could choose to have a lottery. awesome. the problem is the cost of accessing an elite program comparable with rUK's which has 10x the population. which sports do they choose to focus on with 1/10th of the budget?

the point is absolutely incontrovertible.

Bogus point ;-)

check the numbers of Scots medal winners at the olympics. twice as many per head of population than the rest of the UK. We had around 1/10th of the athleletes so sounds like 1/10th of the budget will be fine.

my point is you're going to need much more than 1/10th of the budget to replicate the elite training setups in all the same sports. having those centres of performance management and development is a big fixed cost. it doesnt vary according to population size.

by HammerofThunor Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:03 pm

Laurie, if the Scots go I expect the UK to drop the Union flag (no more blue). Unless it's kept for nostalgia reasons (although I'm thinking it's a NO)
Edit: no one would be voting on Olympic medals would they? Pretty lame reason to decide either way.

by quinsforever Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:07 pm

i dont think the union jack will change. ireland's saltire is still in it even though they left the union in the 1920s.

i like the union jack. lets keep it.

by aucklandlaurie Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:08 pm

I sincerely hope (for everyone) that Olympic medals carry no bearing in an issue like this, its like the Taxman deciding to tax kids pocket money.

by SecretFly Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:10 pm

Medals and sport?

It actually might swing a few votes...a few.

As in a NO voter voting YES to make sure Andy Murray can't play for Britain again because they were mad at him for declaring he's a YES... Whistle

Revenge is a dish served cold.

by aucklandlaurie Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:11 pm

quinsforever wrote:i dont think the union jack will change. ireland's saltire is still in it even though they left the union in the 1920s.

i like the union jack. lets keep it.

Genuine question quins: What is the irish presence in the Union jack?

P.S. i like/respect it too, many have died under it.

by SecretFly Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:17 pm

My problem with the polls and stuff..................

Why, if more than half wanted to stay in the Union through most of the published polls, did those same people put SNP into office up in Scotland? They must have been aware of what the party stood for, it's in the name, in the pamplets, always on the lips of its members. So how could a party called the Scottish National Party hold office in Scotland if the Scottish people didn't have a solid drive to go that way?

I'm not saying they will go that way but that issue always makes me curious.

by funnyExiledScot Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:23 pm

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:Referendum No Campaign (that is campaign in the broadest sense of the word as there appeared to be no coherent strategy apart from relentless negativity) pen pictures:-
Darling - lying boring dullard
Brown - lying flip flopper
Reid - lying conniving little schieze
Murphy - lying cowardly charlatan
Prescott - lying thickoid
Milliband - lying invisible man
Lamont - lying Wee Jimmy Krankie lookalike with atrocious teeth and poodle to all things Westminster

Clegg - what is he for ???? Another liar nonetheless

Cameron - lying play-dough faced a-hole
Osborne - lying smug toss pot
Hammond - Lying slimebag

Farage - nasty, lying, fascist scum

George "I don't get out of bed for less than £64000" Gaga-Galloway - lying, misogynist, insane, r***-apologist

Think this probably sums up the Westminster establishment fairly succinctly All of them appeared up here - why I have no idea ? Along with the Orange Order they have done more for the Yes vote than Salmond /Sturgeon/ Harvie /Sheridan put together. Thanks to all !

One of the more articulate contributions from a separatist supporter I've read. Compelling case for separation. Well done.

Just waiting for your words of wisdom Wise Imperial One !

BTW think you may get a wee fright tomorrow

Always happy to be of service.

It won't be a "wee fright" for me if there's a Yes vote. It'll be a seismic shock, followed by severe depression. My job will be at risk almost immediately and my faith in my country folk irreparably damaged. I have kept and rented out my London flat. I suspect, like much of the FS and legal FS industry in Scotland I'll end up back in London. I hope not.

Can't accuse me of scaremongering either as polls are closed......

by aucklandlaurie Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:26 pm

Fly, Maybe there should be a polls party? could save a lot of energy.

by funnyExiledScot Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:28 pm

SecretFly wrote:My problem with the polls and stuff..................

Why, if more than half wanted to stay in the Union through most of the published polls, did those same people put SNP into office up in Scotland? They must have been aware of what the party stood for, it's in the name, in the pamplets, always on the lips of its members. So how could a party called the Scottish National Party hold office in Scotland if the Scottish people didn't have a solid drive to go that way?

I'm not saying they will go that way but that issue always makes me curious.

It's because the SNP have the better quality politicians up here and despite their misguided obsession do a goodish job in the Scottish Parliament and at local level. My parents long voted SNP in Moray due to the quality of the local MP. Both are unionists and voted No today, but would always vote for the local MP they felt would best represent the constituency, and the SNP have some undoubtedly talented people under their umbrella. Just a shame about the whole separatist agenda!

by SecretFly Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:30 pm

Yeah.... they're often certainly more popular as opinion setters than politicians. They've become so popular in this campaign that they will probably easily pick up an agent now and release a Christmas album of Pop covers.

by SecretFly Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:35 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:the SNP have some undoubtedly talented people under their umbrella. Just a shame about the whole separatist agenda!

Thank's for that, Exiled. That really does clear up that little query I've had.

But perhaps their talent pushes them to reason that as an Independent country they could even make their talents work better for the Scottish people? If their talent is trusted to govern locally then maybe trust about their potential to take total control wouldn't be so far fetched an idea.

by aucklandlaurie Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:39 pm

One of our channels down here has just crossed over to show the counters doing there thing in Aberdeen.

Why do the counters have to wear Hi vis vests? is someone going to drive a forklift through the polling station?

by broadlandboy Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:42 pm

Auck, IIRC the Union flag is made of the Cross of St George(English red cross on white), the Soltire(Scotland) & the Irish Soltire(N Ireland red diagonal cross on white). Wales doesnt have any input as considered part of England. The UK is The Union of Kingdoms of England, Scotland & Nortern Ireland.
I know its Wiki but a better explanation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Jack

by SecretFly Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:43 pm

Maybe, laurie. But probably more pertinent is that it is those PC rules and regulations designed to satisfy touchy insurers on these islands. You gotta wear your safety gear if you're on official duty

by aucklandlaurie Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:44 pm

broadlandboy wrote:Auck, IIRC the Union flag is made of the Cross of St George(English red cross on white), the Soltire(Scotland) & the Irish Soltire(N Ireland red diagonal cross on white). Wales doesnt have any input as considered part of England. The UK is The Union of Kingdoms of England, Scotland & Nortern Ireland.

Thanks broadland, I never appreciated that, even though I shouldnt have been so lazy and just googled it.

by funnyExiledScot Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:51 pm

SecretFly wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:the SNP have some undoubtedly talented people under their umbrella. Just a shame about the whole separatist agenda!

Thank's for that, Exiled. That really does clear up that little query I've had.

But perhaps their talent pushes them to reason that as an Independent country they could even make their talents work better for the Scottish people? If their talent is trusted to govern locally then maybe trust about their potential to take total control wouldn't be so far fetched an idea.

I wouldn't describe independence as far fetched at all. There are some decent arguments in favour, but my starting point is as a supporter of the Union asking why separate, and the cons heavily outweigh the pros for me personally (including my family considerations), for Scotland and rUK, and I care about all three.

by ME-109 Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:52 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
broadlandboy wrote:Auck, IIRC the Union flag is made of the Cross of St George(English red cross on white), the Soltire(Scotland) & the Irish Soltire(N Ireland red diagonal cross on white). Wales doesnt have any input as considered part of England. The UK is The Union of Kingdoms of England, Scotland & Nortern Ireland.

Thanks broadland, I never appreciated that, even though I shouldnt have been so lazy and just googled it.

Correction. It is St Patricks Saltire. not the "Irish Saltire". The Northern Ireland flag is officially the Union Jack.

The St Patricks Saltire is the flag of the Order of St Patrick which was set up in 1783 by George 3rd and was incorporated into the the Union flag in 1800 after the act of union.

by aucklandlaurie Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:02 pm

ME-109 wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
broadlandboy wrote:Auck, IIRC the Union flag is made of the Cross of St George(English red cross on white), the Soltire(Scotland) & the Irish Soltire(N Ireland red diagonal cross on white). Wales doesnt have any input as considered part of England. The UK is The Union of Kingdoms of England, Scotland & Nortern Ireland.

Thanks broadland, I never appreciated that, even though I shouldnt have been so lazy and just googled it.

Correction. It is St Patricks Saltire. not the "Irish Saltire". The Northern Ireland flag is officially the Union Jack.

The St Patricks Saltire is the flag of the Order of St Patrick which was set up in 1783 by George 3rd and was incorporated into the the Union flag in 1800 after the act of union.

Wow you guys have so much history its amazing. back in those days Australia was full of convicts and New Zealand was full of escaped convicts.

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