Welsh half backs for this season

Both Rhys Webb and Gareth Davies are placing their markers down early in the opening games, Webb at his sniping best, and Davies showing he still knows his way to the try line.

Who would you pick for the autumn internationals? I would drop Phillips entirely at this point, though he did have a good game against SA in the 2nd test. Rhodri Williams I dont believe has done enough to be included over the above 2.

Likewise at FlyHalf, Biggar is showing his consistency, but for me Rhys Patchell is the only shining light in the Blues backline, he's still a little raw, but he can control the game, has great pace and a big boot. Priestland is still the man who can take the ball to the line however, but I dont believe he is mentally strong enough for test rugby anymore.

Biggar for me is a MUST for Wales, he is probably the best 10 in the British Isles at the moment, and I agree, Phillips should be dropped and Rhys Webb and Gareth Davies should be in the squad, but at the moment I could not put a fag paper between them.

Biggar is just simply miles ahead of any other option we have at the moment, after him I think I would like to see Patchell given a shot.

Davies and Webb are the front runners and in that order for me but I still think Phillips has a role to play in the squad.

Big call to drop the experience of Phillips, but I can see the logic.

Biggar (IMO) is man holding the 10 jersey at the moment. Patchell is chasing, but I would not want to see him at 10 for Wales against, All Blacks, Wallabies or the Boks as it stands. I think that could do more harm than good to a real up and coming talent. Playing him against Fiji may be a real option. I agree Preistland is a confidence player, who I'm not sure will regain his international presence, but I think maybe a bench spot for him, unless of course Hook takes the bench and covers multiple positions.

So back to who, if you drop Phillips, do you put in at 9. A fag paper between Davies and Webb, but with Biggar starting at 10, then Rhys Webb is the obvious partner, keeping club ties, knowledge they build up, etc... I would then put Gareth Davies on the bench as impact player as and when the game opens up. BUT (and a big BUT), I'm still of the mind that abrasiveness of Phillips is needed against the big 3. So still not sure I would drop him yet and if I did, he would still get a bench spot.

I think the abrasiveness of Phillips is part of where we've been going wrong against the big 3...we are trying too much to match them physically when we need to put a faster tempo on the game.

IronMike wrote:I think the abrasiveness of Phillips is part of where we've been going wrong against the big 3...we are trying too much to match them physically when we need to put a faster tempo on the game.

Cant disagree about stepping up the game's tempo, but I still think a big scrum half who can hold his own against the front power of the All Blacks, Wallabies and Boks is important. Letting them rough up Webb or Davies wouldnt help their game (or confidence) much. But that takes us to the pack, and ensuring we have a pack that can protect the ball to allow Webb (or Davies) to speed up the game and perfrom the magic we see them deliver for the Ospresy and Scarlets.

Of course, its a team game and as such we need all the team to perform, or the weakest link will break us...

Be interesting to see Warren goes come the AI, but I'm not really expecting any major changes...

Yeah I think the forward selection is more important, the All Blacks and Wallabies are not afraid of the Springboks and they pick smaller scrum halves and manage just fine.

I'd be disappointed if Rhodri Williams and Priestland/Hook are selected ahead of the alternatives.

No9 wrote:

IronMike wrote:I think the abrasiveness of Phillips is part of where we've been going wrong against the big 3...we are trying too much to match them physically when we need to put a faster tempo on the game.

Cant disagree about stepping up the game's tempo, but I still think a big scrum half who can hold his own against the front power of the All Blacks, Wallabies and Boks is important. Letting them rough up Webb or Davies wouldnt help their game (or confidence) much. But that takes us to the pack, and ensuring we have a pack that can protect the ball to allow Webb (or Davies) to speed up the game and perfrom the magic we see them deliver for the Ospresy and Scarlets.

Of course, its a team game and as such we need all the team to perform, or the weakest link will break us...

Be interesting to see Warren goes come the AI, but I'm not really expecting any major changes...

Well Rhys Webb at 6 foot and 14 1/2 stone and Gareth Davies at 5'10 and 13 st 12 lb are not exactly midgets are they, I am sure they could easily take a bit of roughing up, here's their stats:-

http://www.scarlets.co.uk/eng/rugby/people.php?player=85907&includeref=dynamic

http://www.ospreysrugby.com/Teams/Ospreys/Player/135205

Also, does anybody think, that the fact, that because now Martin Roberts is at the Ospreys, Rhys Webb has had to up his game, thus we are seeing the much better performances from him.

Good point LordD... I wasn't trying to imply that Rhys Webb and Gareth Davies where "small", but just as my comment over Patchell being thrown in, I would like to see them build confidence first, before the SH big 3 bully them.

Many moons ago, I was considered a big scrum half, at 5' 11" and 12st 10lbs. Compare to today's build I'd be a mino hahaha!!!

As for Martin Roberts at the Os, as we all agree (I'm sure) competition for your place is a must at this level, so I don't see Roberts at the Os a bad thing for Webb. But not sure its a reason Webb "had to up his game", as I think he has been getting steadily better every season, with him playing a blinder yesterday against Edinburgh... But knowing Roberts is at his back will only be a positive...

My 2P worth.
Phillips has to go. he slows up the ball too much. I am a fan of Rees at 9. Experienced combative and quick. I don't know your other guys well enough
At 10 - Biggar is the safe option - but Patchell looked very good this weekend - a dangerous player.
You need IMO a quick traditional SH and then you take your choice of Biggar and Patchell depending on the team and tactics.
Wales have some very good backs - FFS give them the occasional decent pass! it breaks my heart to see 1/2p kicking counter ball away all the time and North being reduced to kick chasing all game.

Richie Rees international days where over when he was suspended for eye gouging Hartley (12 week ban). Although, the evidence wasn't conclusive to it being intentional, it did mean he was suspended during the 2011 6 Nations and hence missed the boat for the 2011 RWC. I don't think there was anyway back after that and cant see him being selected over the young blood we have coming through.

I don't believe he is first choice scrum half at the Dragons and at 31 I think he is no longer the future and although his experience may be seen as a positive thing for the Dragons, he is now simply building up his pension pot, as I cant see him continuing playing (top flight rugby) after his current contract expires at the end of this season (ie. 2014/15 season).

Phillips has always been a bit of a marmite kind of player even when he was at his best, as I said I still think he has a role to play this season and through to the World Cup but I would like to now see Webb or Davies really stake their claim over the whole season and make the shirt theirs.

Didnt realise Rees was that old! Wish he never left the Blues, desperately need a scrum half there who can make an impact, Tavis Knoyle hasn't even featured yet.

I do want to see what Patchell can do with a good service from 9 and better centres around him so I hope he gets game time against Fiji this November.

Rees fell out with Howley didn't he, if you listen to rumours then that's why he never really figured for Wales again.

Webb and Biggar are winning games for the Ospreys this season. Davies is probably the best available by far. But seeing as Biggar should continue at 10, Webb might get the nod at 9 because of the familiarity in their partnership.

Webb and Gareth Davies are on fire. Phillips is struggling to get game time in France.

Biggar is playing well in an Ospreys side which probably has not played any of the likely title contenders yet. Priestland is slowly building his confidence playing for a stuttering Scarlet's side. Hook is playing 10 again for a Gloucester side who are struggling and Patchell has been moved to 15 to accomodate the other Gareth Davies at 10, a strong indication that when Anscombe arrives he will be handed the no 10 jersey.

At 9 I would start with Davies with Webb or Phillips on the bench. A bit more difficult at 10, Biggar is the man in posession but Gatland likes a 10 that plays on the advantage line, that's not Biggar's game. A confident Priestland can play that game, but where is is confidence at the moment? Patchell is probably the most promising of the bunch but he cant get into the 10 jersey at the Blues at present. Hook, I suspect, will prove to the Gloucester coaches what the Ospreys, Perpignan and Wales already know, that he is not a top class 10. And Anscombe, who knows? If he plays well when he arrives he may be the Wales no 10 for the Autumn tests.

Obviously I'm biased, if it is not Biggar and Webb I'll be very dissapointed, Biggar to me is the only choice ATM, with Patchell and Gatlands love child (Anscombe) challenging very soon, as for scrum half Webb was first choice before his injury and he has come back even better, although we have played lesser opposition than Davies has faced, I would have Davies on the bench, whether Gatland will is another matter. I think this series will seriously impact on the choices right up to the WC.

I agree that at the moment Biggar is the clear front runner, No9 is it bit more difficult. Him and Webb obviously have the Regional connection but I do like Davies and as said I still think Phillips has a role to play.

I was thinking about this at the weekend, I think we could go for

No.8 - Baker
SH - Webb
FH - Biggar
LW - North
IC - Roberts
OC - J Davies
RW - Cuthbert
FB - Li Williams / D Evans

For an Ospreys spine to the team, and a reliable kicking option.

Or the other option would be

No.8 - Faletau
SH - G Davies
FH - Priestland
LW - North
IC - Sc Williams
OC - J Davies
RW - Cuthbert
FB - Patchell

For a Scarlets (and ex. scarlets) spine with a reliable goal kicker too.

The regional partnerships should give us a boost, as the player know each others games inside out.  However realistically I think we will see Phillips at scrum half and Biggar/Preist at fly half, with Webb/Davies and Hook on the bench.

SS,

North, at times struggles to defend 1 wing so having him on both would definitely test him .

bedfordwelsh wrote:SS,

North, at times struggles to defend 1 wing so having him on both would definitely test him .

Ah I meant another North cough cough.................

will say I wouldn't write Owen Williams off just yet, burns has failed to claim the 10 shirt after Williams Suspension meant Burns got the jump on him.

 Williams made a 58 M penalty Kick and was solid in defence and made some good yardage @ 12 against irish.

Welly, I think during the AIs we may see the number of non-welsh based players involved at a minimum. I think we may only see Hibbard (if fit still), Charteris, Lydiate, Roberts, Foxy, North, and Phillips. And I still wouldn't be overly surprised if some of those are bench options at best. So even though Owen is a good player, I think the 'untested' excuse will be made, as well as that there are a number of good options in his position plying their trade at home (same goes for Hook, unless his utility skills are required).

Without checking I think the fixture are

Australia
Fiji
New Zealand
South Africa

Now given that the Boks game is outside the window and only North out of the exiles will be available I honestly think the team likely to play the Boks should at least start against the All Blacks.

I know it wouldn't be our strongest team by some way but we have to learn to deal without these players and it would send a pretty strong message.

I don't wanna see Roberts or Davies starting to be honest. They chose cash and the high life, but they're seeing less rugby...and when they do play they're average at best Scott Williams and Cory Allen is the way to go. Liam Williams is looking good as well, he needs to keep it up because I feel he played himself out of contention in Wales' last test against the Boks.

Saint,

Roberts missing wouldn't bother me but I am a big JD fan and think he's very under rated but as I said we will have to do without him to let's give the players likely to face the Boks at least 60 minutes together.

For the Boks game we could see something like

Jenkins
Rees (not really sure who else about but Hibbard unavailable Owens injured)
A Jones
Ball
AWJ
Turnbull (Would love to see Lewis Evans get a crack but won't happen)
Faletau
Warburton

Webb
Biggar

North
Allen
Sc Williams
Cuthbert

Li Williams

Bedford, not bad. But I think Gats prefers Phillips and Baldwin at hooker, and Lee has to be at TH. Turnbull just isn't repeating last seasons form and shouldn't be in the squad. Navidi, Baker and Pitman however...

The Saint wrote:Bedford, not bad. But I think Gats prefers Phillips and Baldwin at hooker, and Lee has to be at TH. Turnbull just isn't repeating last seasons form and shouldn't be in the squad. Navidi, Baker and Pitman however...

Saint,

Phillips won't be available, I did mention Baldwin in another thread but didn't get much in the way of favourable responses, who else is out there.  I did forget about Lee so yeah I agree on that point, I don't see Navidi as a 6 at this level certainly no more so than Evans or do you mean Warburton at 6 Navidi at 7?

Would a back row of Faletau Baker Warburton work maybe?

I've not gone for Tipuric due to him not having had much game time but again I guess Him and Warburton would be the 6 and 7 option with Faletau or Baker starting and bench cover.

What it does prove is that we don't need the exiles now as much as before.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

The Saint wrote:Bedford, not bad. But I think Gats prefers Phillips and Baldwin at hooker, and Lee has to be at TH. Turnbull just isn't repeating last seasons form and shouldn't be in the squad. Navidi, Baker and Pitman however...

Saint,

Phillips won't be available, I did mention Baldwin in another thread but didn't get much in the way of favourable responses, who else is out there.  I did forget about Lee so yeah I agree on that point, I don't see Navidi as a 6 at this level certainly no more so than Evans or do you mean Warburton at 6 Navidi at 7?

Would a back row of Faletau Baker Warburton work maybe?

I've not gone for Tipuric due to him not having had much game time but again I guess Him and Warburton would be the 6 and 7 option with Faletau or Baker starting and bench cover.

What it does prove is that we don't need the exiles now as much as before.

Yeah I think Warbs at 6 and Navidi at 7 is better, Navs is also a bit better than Tips I reckon. Could shift Faletua to 6 if we wanted to I guess.

And yes, agree with your last comment. But when they come home we should have stronger Regions and more competition for places. Central/Dual contracts should have come in a lot sooner.

I would discard them totally but as I said I would use the the ABs and Boks game as a way of sending a message that they are not irreplaceable.

Also think we really need to start finding a replacement for Jenkins. Such a shame Gill hasn't kicked on or even come back to Wales.

I thought I had heard it all until I just read that Navidi is better than Tipuric. Don't get me wrong, he is a fine rugby player, but Tipuric is the best player in the country. The way he came back from injury on Friday was frightening.
If Gatland doesn't select Warburton at 6, with Tips at 7, then serious questions need to be asked.
I genuinely cannot WAIT to hear his justification for shoe-horning Lydiate into the team. Another class player, but chop tackles don't beat the SH!!
Move the ball, cut the angles, play at pace.
Faletau would be a reputation call too, both baker and Pitman have a legitimate claim for a place.

bedfordwelsh wrote:I would discard them totally but as I said I would use the the ABs and Boks game as a way of sending a message that they are not irreplaceable.

Also think we really need to start finding a replacement for Jenkins.  Such a shame Gill hasn't kicked on or even come back to Wales.

Early days, but Nicky Smith looks very much in the Jenkins Mould. Possibly a better scrummager too.

Good to hear HG, am sure there are some out there, they just need a break I guess or for the coaches to take a punt on them.

Jenkins
Baldwin
??
AWJ
Ball
Warburton
Tipuric
Faletau (just)
Webb
Biggar
North
Allen
JD
Cuthbert
Liam Williams

Nicky Smith
Hibbard/Rees
??
James King
Turnbull
Gareth Davies
Patchell/Hook
Scott Williams

Don't rate King at all sorry and for me if we are going to pick exiles then Lydiate would still start at 6 and yes that may well be with blinkers on but we have no one to do what he does which then lets Faletau and Warburton do what they have to do.

Higher_Ground wrote:I thought I had heard it all until I just read that Navidi is better than Tipuric. Don't get me wrong, he is a fine rugby player, but Tipuric is the best player in the country. The way he came back from injury on Friday was frightening.

It's delusional and clown-like statements like this that make this a bad place some times. For the record, Warbs and Tips worked once only, against England. Warbs and Navidi when playing together look better, always have done in my view. We need more internationals like Navidi IMO as he's one of the few to consistently play out of his skin.

Also, picking James King in the match-day squad, I think is a bit of an "oh dear" selection at this moment in time. I think we can guess who you support.

Nice respectful comments Saint. I think it's pretty clear who you support also. God forbid we try something new, the old selections have been working REALLY well up to this point.

Glad everyone picked up on my one wildcard bench pick, rather than the rest
of the team. Would be (semi) interested to hear who you think should be on the bench to cover second row. (You know Navidi can't play there right?)
Fortunately we'll get to see Blues v Ospreys in a few weeks and see how the back rows stack up.

Higher_Ground wrote:Nice respectful comments Saint. I think it's pretty clear who you support also. God forbid we try something new, the old selections have been working REALLY well up to this point.  

If you open your eyes and read my comments then you'd see that is EXACTLY what I have been suggesting.

The Saint wrote:

Higher_Ground wrote:I thought I had heard it all until I just read that Navidi is better than Tipuric. Don't get me wrong, he is a fine rugby player, but Tipuric is the best player in the country. The way he came back from injury on Friday was frightening.

It's delusional and clown-like statements like this that make this a bad place some times. For the record, Warbs and Tips worked once only, against England. Warbs and Navidi when playing together look better, always have done in my view. We need more internationals like Navidi IMO as he's one of the few to consistently play out of his skin.

Also, picking James King in the match-day squad, I think is a bit of an "oh dear" selection at this moment in time. I think we can guess who you support.

Then why not play Tipuric and Navidi and leave Warburton out ? Let's be honest, Warburton has done nothing in a Cardiff Blues team languishing 10th in the league this season that warrants a place in the Welsh team.

Warbs has been pretty good in the little game time he's had. I think Navidi has been better at 7 than both him and Turnbull though. Tips has had what, one game? Some of ya better take the blinkers off. BTW, I think that back-row would get beaten up, Tips and Navidi aren't known for their physicality. I wouldn't have Shingler near the back-row for that same reason.

The Saint wrote:Warbs has been pretty good in the little game time he's had. I think Navidi has been better at 7 than both him and Turnbull though. Tips has had what, one game? Some of ya better take the blinkers off. BTW, I think that back-row would get beaten up, Tips and Navidi aren't known for their physicality. I wouldn't have Shingler near the back-row for that same reason.

I know Tipuric only has one game under his belt, but by feck he looked good, his running lines, his tackling, stealing the ball, line out wins, his link up play, come on Saint, even you must admit, he is one hell of a player.

Do I seriously need to repeat myself? Like banging your head against the wall...

The Saint wrote:Do I seriously need to repeat myself? Like banging your head against the wall...

Well, put it this way, I would have Tips, with one other, either Warburton, Lydiate or Navidi, I would not leave Tipuric on the bench.

The Saint wrote:Do I seriously need to repeat myself? Like banging your head against the wall...

Well, if you consider that the only comment you've made about Tipuric is that he's not as good as Navidi, admitting that he's a good player wouldn't actually be repeating yourself.

If selecting a test Lion in my back row makes me a clown, and this forum 'a bad place to be for you', then I can accept both. Listen to what his current/ex team mates, coaches and pundits say about his ability. He's the most natural footballer we have.

You remind me of the woman who bought her son in law two ties for Christmas, and when he came down to lunch wearing one of them she said 'oh, you didn't like the other one did you?'

Just choices.

Higher_Ground wrote:Listen to what his current/ex team mates, coaches and pundits say about his ability. He's the most natural footballer we have.

To be fair that is also what they said about Hooky.

I think Tips is a good player, but seeing as Warburton is a certainty to start (unless injured), I am not too sure if I would have Tips in my squad. In the backrow we have Lydiate, Faletau and Baker fighting for the 6/8 berth, and also we have Turnbull as a good reliable bench option that will safely cover the three backrow positions, and be an emergence lock too.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Higher_Ground wrote:Listen to what his current/ex team mates, coaches and pundits say about his ability. He's the most natural footballer we have.

To be fair that is also what they said about Hooky.

I think Tips is a good player, but seeing as Warburton is a certainty to start (unless injured), I am not too sure if I would have Tips in my squad.  In the backrow we have Lydiate, Faletau and Baker fighting for the 6/8 berth, and also we have Turnbull as a good reliable bench option that will safely cover the three backrow positions, and be an emergence lock too.[/b]

Squad or 1st 15, not to have him in your whole squad is bit of a risk.

23 man match day squad Lord. Tips is a good player, but he doesn't offer enough as much cover off the bench as Turnbull, he isn't an out and out blindside or number 8, and he isn't WRUBurton (who will start as he is being paid). So personally I wouldn't have him in there.

However, in my 6Ns/AI training squad he would be there with Shingler too.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:23 man match day squad Lord.  Tips is a good player, but he doesn't offer enough as much cover off the bench as Turnbull, he isn't an out and out blindside or number 8, and he isn't WRUBurton (who will start as he is being paid).  So personally I wouldn't have him in there.

However, in my 6Ns/AI training squad he would be there with Shingler too.

hairy muff, ooops, I mean fair enough.

Higher_Ground wrote:

The Saint wrote:Do I seriously need to repeat myself? Like banging your head against the wall...

Well, if you consider that the only comment you've made about Tipuric is that he's not as good as Navidi, admitting that he's a good player wouldn't actually be repeating yourself.

If selecting a test Lion in my back row makes me a clown, and this forum 'a bad place to be for you', then I can accept both.   Listen to what his current/ex team mates, coaches and pundits say about his ability. He's the most natural footballer we have.

You remind me of the woman who bought her son in law two ties for Christmas, and when he came down to lunch wearing one of them she said 'oh, you didn't like the other one did you?'  

Just choices.

What, we're talking about picking on form. I highlighted Tips has had 1 game where-as some of the other 7s have had more game time and look better. Surely I don't need to repeat this to someone who is still convinced Tipuric is the leading man in the Wales 7 jersey right now! Seems a bit daft.

Test Lion, ummm, how many minutes did he have exactly? If you've watched him in seasons after the Lions tour you'd surely have seen he's inconsistent to poor. Telling us Tipuric is the best player in the country after one bloody game is what makes you sound like a clown. And he'll be out of the next game with concussion too. By then are you all still convinced he's No.1 in his position? If you are then I really don't see how, but that's none of my business... And why on earth do we need a bloody footballer in the back-row... If you want forwards with backs handling ability then you'd select the Scarlets forwards because that's how they're style of play is right now.