Scottish Rugby
+14
VinceWLB
RuggerRadge2611
BigGee
funnyExiledScot
Captain_Sensible
RDW
profitius
TJ
InjuredYetAgain
jimbopip
bluestonevedder
Weegie Wizard
fa0019
reallybored
18 posters
The v2 Forum :: Sport :: Rugby Union :: International
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Are you optimistic the next decade of Scottish rugby will be better than the last?
Scottish Rugby
Thought we could do with opening the conversation up a bit from other thread on the fly-half options.
Very encouraging to see the SRU and BT opening the first of four new national academies in Aberdeen aimed at developing the next generation. Target is for each academy to be producing 12 high-quality players for pro-rugby and another 12 for domestic-rugby per year, which seems very ambitious but fair play to them, not like the SRU to set unrealistic targets . Hopefully this is the first steps towards creating another pro-team, with Aberdeen looking likely to be the destination.
The other side of growing rugby though is getting results at the top level and inspiring kids to get involved and emulate their hero's.
Glasgow are fulfilling their side of the bargain and look like they'll be challenging for silver-ware this term. Edinburgh don't but I'm actually willing to be patient with Solomons, just don't think another change of coach would help at this point in time. The team also needs to settle down a bit and get some continuity in selection, plus they're missing two of their best players in Denton and Scott.
Quietly confident that we'll arrive at the RWC in good nick, obviously it'd have been better had Cotter had more time but Glasgow's current form simplifies his selection choices. I'm confident that we've probably got our best pool of players compared to the previous 2 or 3 tournaments, with some genuine quality in the team. Plus we've got a good draw in the group and the fixtures have been kind to us with Japan then USA before South Africa and finishing with key match against Samoa.
Anyone else share my optimism?
Very encouraging to see the SRU and BT opening the first of four new national academies in Aberdeen aimed at developing the next generation. Target is for each academy to be producing 12 high-quality players for pro-rugby and another 12 for domestic-rugby per year, which seems very ambitious but fair play to them, not like the SRU to set unrealistic targets . Hopefully this is the first steps towards creating another pro-team, with Aberdeen looking likely to be the destination.
The other side of growing rugby though is getting results at the top level and inspiring kids to get involved and emulate their hero's.
Glasgow are fulfilling their side of the bargain and look like they'll be challenging for silver-ware this term. Edinburgh don't but I'm actually willing to be patient with Solomons, just don't think another change of coach would help at this point in time. The team also needs to settle down a bit and get some continuity in selection, plus they're missing two of their best players in Denton and Scott.
Quietly confident that we'll arrive at the RWC in good nick, obviously it'd have been better had Cotter had more time but Glasgow's current form simplifies his selection choices. I'm confident that we've probably got our best pool of players compared to the previous 2 or 3 tournaments, with some genuine quality in the team. Plus we've got a good draw in the group and the fixtures have been kind to us with Japan then USA before South Africa and finishing with key match against Samoa.
Anyone else share my optimism?
reallybored- Posts : 928
Join date : 2012-07-13
Re: Scottish Rugby
Its a sad day when our greatest current day achievement in rugby would be to get out of a rugby world cup pool stage.
Here are the placings we've come in the junior annual rugby world cup.
09 - 9th out of 12
10 - 10th out of 12
11 - 10th out of 12
12 - 9th out of 12
13 - 10th out of 12
14 - 10th out of 12
Still optimistic.
That is our next 10 years in essence. Unless we poach from other nations that's where we will sit... fighting it out with Samoa (who will always get the NZ colts rejects too), Italy and Argentina. Our kids just aren't coming through anymore.
Here are the placings we've come in the junior annual rugby world cup.
09 - 9th out of 12
10 - 10th out of 12
11 - 10th out of 12
12 - 9th out of 12
13 - 10th out of 12
14 - 10th out of 12
Still optimistic.
That is our next 10 years in essence. Unless we poach from other nations that's where we will sit... fighting it out with Samoa (who will always get the NZ colts rejects too), Italy and Argentina. Our kids just aren't coming through anymore.
fa0019- Posts : 8196
Join date : 2011-07-25
Re: Scottish Rugby
From the current set-up the following should be playing for most or all of the next decade:
Grant Gilchrist (24)
Jonny Gray (20)
Richie Gray (25)
Rob Harley (24)
Adam Ashe (21)
David Denton (24)
Henry Pyrgos (25)
Tom Heathcote (22)
Finn Russell (22)
Duncan Weir (23)
Mark Bennett (21)
Alex Dunbar (24)
Pete Horne (24)
Sean Maitland (26)
Tommy Seymour (26)
Stuart Hogg (22)
In the last 10yrs we have had to play (off the top of my head):
Hugo Southwell
Nikki Walker
Dan Parks
Al Kellock (unfair on the big guy maybe)
Phil Godman
Graeme Morrison
Simon Webster
Rob Dewey
Andy Henderson
Marcus Di Rollo
and Brendan Laney
For me, only us Scots could possibly expect our current crop to descend into the mediocrity of that second group.
Grant Gilchrist (24)
Jonny Gray (20)
Richie Gray (25)
Rob Harley (24)
Adam Ashe (21)
David Denton (24)
Henry Pyrgos (25)
Tom Heathcote (22)
Finn Russell (22)
Duncan Weir (23)
Mark Bennett (21)
Alex Dunbar (24)
Pete Horne (24)
Sean Maitland (26)
Tommy Seymour (26)
Stuart Hogg (22)
In the last 10yrs we have had to play (off the top of my head):
Hugo Southwell
Nikki Walker
Dan Parks
Al Kellock (unfair on the big guy maybe)
Phil Godman
Graeme Morrison
Simon Webster
Rob Dewey
Andy Henderson
Marcus Di Rollo
and Brendan Laney
For me, only us Scots could possibly expect our current crop to descend into the mediocrity of that second group.
Weegie Wizard- Posts : 484
Join date : 2013-06-12
Age : 43
Location : Glasgow
Re: Scottish Rugby
the skill of the players can only be seen relative to the opposition. Perhaps players have improved... but other nations have improved too and I would say the gap has got bigger.
As I showed... our standing in junior rugby has pretty much remained the same over the last 6 years.
Remember that era you slam... they might have taken some major hits but between 2006-2010 they beat SA, AUS, ENG and FRA.
When was the last time this modern lot even came close to beating one of those sides?
As I showed... our standing in junior rugby has pretty much remained the same over the last 6 years.
Remember that era you slam... they might have taken some major hits but between 2006-2010 they beat SA, AUS, ENG and FRA.
When was the last time this modern lot even came close to beating one of those sides?
fa0019- Posts : 8196
Join date : 2011-07-25
Re: Scottish Rugby
As a side question, what on earth happened to Lee Jones?
bluestonevedder- Posts : 3952
Join date : 2011-08-22
Re: Scottish Rugby
On the contrary.fa0019 wrote:Its a sad day when our greatest current day achievement in rugby would be to get out of a rugby world cup pool stage.
If we make it out of our group we'll face England, Australia or Wales. All good teams who would be comfortable favourites to beat us but in knock-out rugby funny things can happen.
England are rightly one of the favourites for tournament but if there's one team that drags a performance out of us, it tends to be the English.
Of the big 3, Australia is comfortably the best option and considering our recent record against them I wouldn't be bereft of confidence against them. Get on top in the scrum and they can crumble.
Or the Welsh, again comfortable favourites but I'm never convinced we couldn't beat them if we put in a decent 80 minute performance and kept 15 on the park. Glasgow's recent form against Welsh regions also gives me confidence.
Then it's France, Ireland or Argentina in the semi-finals. France would be the only one of those three that would really worry me, they show up and it doesn't matter what we do.
Then we're in the final against New Zealand, ready to record our first ever victory against them.
Easy.
reallybored- Posts : 928
Join date : 2012-07-13
Re: Scottish Rugby
Reallybored I think I love you.
On a side note: Weegie Wizzard you are being unfair. I was at the Millenium stadium the day Tom Evans suffered his spinal injury and Shane Williams scored the winner in stoppage time against 13 men. Dan Parks's performance that day was close to being perfect. Without re-igniting an old debate he was one of the best 10's Scotland have ever had AT WHAT HE DID. Yes, my 11 year old son is probably better than DP at the tackling and rucking and getting muddy side of the game but that's not why you pick a player like Parks.
On a side note: Weegie Wizzard you are being unfair. I was at the Millenium stadium the day Tom Evans suffered his spinal injury and Shane Williams scored the winner in stoppage time against 13 men. Dan Parks's performance that day was close to being perfect. Without re-igniting an old debate he was one of the best 10's Scotland have ever had AT WHAT HE DID. Yes, my 11 year old son is probably better than DP at the tackling and rucking and getting muddy side of the game but that's not why you pick a player like Parks.
jimbopip- Posts : 7328
Join date : 2012-10-14
Location : sunny Essex
Re: Scottish Rugby
While we do have some good young players coming through, WW (where was Matt Scott on your list? And noticeably that none of the names you quoted wear the numbers 1, 2 or 3), I worry about our mental toughness. Yes on our day we can give the big guns a run for their money but we seem to lack that (legal) ruthlessness that NZ and England have when, if needs be, they can change tactics and close a game down to secure a win.
If we are ahead late on, we tend to pish ourselves and panic.
Maybe Vern Cotter can instil a bit of self-belief though.
If we are ahead late on, we tend to pish ourselves and panic.
Maybe Vern Cotter can instil a bit of self-belief though.
InjuredYetAgain- Posts : 1317
Join date : 2011-06-02
Age : 58
Location : Edinburgh
Re: Scottish Rugby
For me? this is the best group of players I have seen - maybe the 1990 side were better ( in comparisions to their rivals) but this is a great group of players. Poor coachs have cost us a a bit of development in the international side but now - its time to deliver. Strength id depth is always going to be a problem but we no longer have a small pack that can be bullied, we have some real international standard backs and one or two potential reall world class acts.
It will always be difficult to match the real big boys simply because of the small playing base but this group of players should be able to get us back to the top table, winning 6N or at least challenging for the title and capable of decent runs at the WC.
So - optimistic - yes. They need to put it all together tho Plenty of potential on paper but games are won on grass.
It will always be difficult to match the real big boys simply because of the small playing base but this group of players should be able to get us back to the top table, winning 6N or at least challenging for the title and capable of decent runs at the WC.
So - optimistic - yes. They need to put it all together tho Plenty of potential on paper but games are won on grass.
TJ- Posts : 8629
Join date : 2013-09-22
Re: Scottish Rugby
Jimbo I will defend Dan Parks till I'm blue in the face. Glasgow went about 7yrs where he scored 90% of our points!! Even I would be reluctant to say he is the type of 10 I want in the national team. I also fully expect Finn Russell to be far better than Parks given a proper run at it.
Injured, I outright forgot about Matt Scott. Not sure why. Maybe he plays for Edinburgh so isn't World Class ™ or maybe as he's injured I'm not sure. Obviously he should be front a centre (behind Bennett)
Our forwards are no better than they used to be, possibly even weaker in the front row, but we have backs that would have killed for even 4yrs ago and we all know backs are all that matter
Injured, I outright forgot about Matt Scott. Not sure why. Maybe he plays for Edinburgh so isn't World Class ™ or maybe as he's injured I'm not sure. Obviously he should be front a centre (behind Bennett)
Our forwards are no better than they used to be, possibly even weaker in the front row, but we have backs that would have killed for even 4yrs ago and we all know backs are all that matter
Weegie Wizard- Posts : 484
Join date : 2013-06-12
Age : 43
Location : Glasgow
Re: Scottish Rugby
fa0019 wrote:Its a sad day when our greatest current day achievement in rugby would be to get out of a rugby world cup pool stage.
Here are the placings we've come in the junior annual rugby world cup.
09 - 9th out of 12
10 - 10th out of 12
11 - 10th out of 12
12 - 9th out of 12
13 - 10th out of 12
14 - 10th out of 12
Still optimistic.
That is our next 10 years in essence. Unless we poach from other nations that's where we will sit... fighting it out with Samoa (who will always get the NZ colts rejects too), Italy and Argentina. Our kids just aren't coming through anymore.
It'll take huge effort to turn that around. I thought they've been poor whenever I saw them.
One thing I would say though is at u20 level results are not everything. Some countries are behind in fitness and conditioning and Scotland are one of them. So there might be some rough diamonds there.
profitius- Posts : 4726
Join date : 2012-01-25
Re: Scottish Rugby
Good point, Profitius.
I have heard that player attitude isn't the best. There was a story a few years back when Todd Blackadder was coaching one if the age group teams. At the end of the session at Murrayfield, all the players just ambled away leaving someone with a million AB caps to pick up the cones, water bottles etc that the players had just left lying around.
Ok, a small thing but it does, to me, reek a bit of undeserved arrogance that picking stuff up is for others to do.
I have heard that player attitude isn't the best. There was a story a few years back when Todd Blackadder was coaching one if the age group teams. At the end of the session at Murrayfield, all the players just ambled away leaving someone with a million AB caps to pick up the cones, water bottles etc that the players had just left lying around.
Ok, a small thing but it does, to me, reek a bit of undeserved arrogance that picking stuff up is for others to do.
InjuredYetAgain- Posts : 1317
Join date : 2011-06-02
Age : 58
Location : Edinburgh
Re: Scottish Rugby
It is a good question, and I suspect most Scottish fans will have the following thoughts on the matter:
- We currently have a very talented bunch of players, with the potential to improve Scotland, but
- Until we actually see some improvements in the national team and Scotland consistently doing well in the 6N, we will always question when the 'dark horses tag' we often get will actually turn into reality.
- We currently have a very talented bunch of players, with the potential to improve Scotland, but
- Until we actually see some improvements in the national team and Scotland consistently doing well in the 6N, we will always question when the 'dark horses tag' we often get will actually turn into reality.
RDW- Founder
- Posts : 33184
Join date : 2011-06-01
Location : Sydney
Re: Scottish Rugby
bluestonevedder wrote:As a side question, what on earth happened to Lee Jones?
He was God awful at Edinburgh then moved to Glasgow and re-discovered his mojo (something that happens a lot).
He's played well for Glasgow when picked, but where he really shines is in the 7s squad - I genuinely think he is a world class 7s player. He's certainly the go to man for Scotland in the 7s and scores a hell of a lot of tries for them.
So I can't see him having much more of a future in XVs - a decent squad player for Glasgow - but can see him being a real star of the 7s game.
RDW- Founder
- Posts : 33184
Join date : 2011-06-01
Location : Sydney
Re: Scottish Rugby
I am very optimistic about the next decade, especially relative to the previous one. We have a very good group of young players coming through in both the backs and the forwards, players that previous Scottish coaches would have given their front teeth for.
I think the next 18 months is absolutely crucial. We need to inculcate a winning mentality among this group of players. A realisation that they are good enough to beat anyone if they play to their best. An understanding that points and wins will come if they play with aggression, accuracy and patience. A knowledge that at some point in almost every game, the situation will look Poopie but that those storms can be weathered if everyone keeps their chin up and their head level.
Without that change in mentality, no amount of quality can win you games. Call it the top two inches, call it TCUP, call it whatever you like. For too long, Scottish rugby has been perceived, and perceived itself, as a loser. We need to purge that attitude completely. The success at Glasgow will help that, but it needs to be reinforced by Vern and his team.
Also, if Scott Johnson shows any sign of getting involved in the running of the national team, the SRU need to charter a helicopter and drop him out in the North Sea.
I think the next 18 months is absolutely crucial. We need to inculcate a winning mentality among this group of players. A realisation that they are good enough to beat anyone if they play to their best. An understanding that points and wins will come if they play with aggression, accuracy and patience. A knowledge that at some point in almost every game, the situation will look Poopie but that those storms can be weathered if everyone keeps their chin up and their head level.
Without that change in mentality, no amount of quality can win you games. Call it the top two inches, call it TCUP, call it whatever you like. For too long, Scottish rugby has been perceived, and perceived itself, as a loser. We need to purge that attitude completely. The success at Glasgow will help that, but it needs to be reinforced by Vern and his team.
Also, if Scott Johnson shows any sign of getting involved in the running of the national team, the SRU need to charter a helicopter and drop him out in the North Sea.
Captain_Sensible- Posts : 699
Join date : 2012-05-03
Re: Scottish Rugby
I think it would help if we defined what a successful decade would mean, and I think we need to be realistic.
To me it would mean (over the next 10 seasons):
- Stay in the top 8 in the IRB rankings
- Half of the 6N tournaments in the top 4
- At least two 6N tournaments in the top 3, with us in the mix going into the final two games
- Two world cup QF spots
- Beat New Zealand, Australia and South Africa (and Wales FFS!)
- Glasgow to win the Pro 12 more than once, and reach the QF stage of Europe more often than not
- Edinburgh to qualify for Europe more often than not
In my mind they are reasonable - yet realistic - targets. Perhaps the most difficult one would be top 4 of the 6N for at least 5 tournaments, as that would represent a big change in consistency required.
Beating New Zealand once in 10 years is definitely a long shot, but it has to be done sometime!!
To me it would mean (over the next 10 seasons):
- Stay in the top 8 in the IRB rankings
- Half of the 6N tournaments in the top 4
- At least two 6N tournaments in the top 3, with us in the mix going into the final two games
- Two world cup QF spots
- Beat New Zealand, Australia and South Africa (and Wales FFS!)
- Glasgow to win the Pro 12 more than once, and reach the QF stage of Europe more often than not
- Edinburgh to qualify for Europe more often than not
In my mind they are reasonable - yet realistic - targets. Perhaps the most difficult one would be top 4 of the 6N for at least 5 tournaments, as that would represent a big change in consistency required.
Beating New Zealand once in 10 years is definitely a long shot, but it has to be done sometime!!
RDW- Founder
- Posts : 33184
Join date : 2011-06-01
Location : Sydney
Re: Scottish Rugby
I answered Yes.
Grounds for optimism:
- talented young players
- Glasgow (pains me to say it)
- Vern Cotter
- good project players coming through (e.g. Du Preez and Strauss)
Grounds for optimism:
- talented young players
- Glasgow (pains me to say it)
- Vern Cotter
- good project players coming through (e.g. Du Preez and Strauss)
funnyExiledScot- Posts : 17072
Join date : 2011-05-31
Age : 43
Location : Edinburgh
Re: Scottish Rugby
funnyExiledScot wrote:I answered Yes.
Grounds for optimism:
- talented young players
- Glasgow (pains me to say it)
- Vern Cotter
- good project players coming through (e.g. Du Preez and Strauss)
I'll finally be optimistic about Scottish rugby when no one mentions project players and Scotland together in the same sentence. Until then we're simply buying competitiveness. We're not the only ones, in fact we're swimming with the tide, doesn't make it right though.
fa0019- Posts : 8196
Join date : 2011-07-25
Re: Scottish Rugby
funnyExiledScot wrote:I answered Yes.
There's a first time for everything!
RDW- Founder
- Posts : 33184
Join date : 2011-06-01
Location : Sydney
Re: Scottish Rugby
I'd have voted for independence if only I'd known that Alex Salmond was going to make paying tax optional!!
funnyExiledScot- Posts : 17072
Join date : 2011-05-31
Age : 43
Location : Edinburgh
Re: Scottish Rugby
funnyExiledScot wrote:I'd have voted for independence if only I'd known that Alex Salmond was going to make paying tax optional!!
meaning you're going to vote tory now they'll reduce your tax bill??? Got to be one in Scotland that does right?
fa0019- Posts : 8196
Join date : 2011-07-25
Re: Scottish Rugby
Has anyone got any stats of the last 10 years for Scotland? Will be interesting to see what we have to improve on to deem the next 10 years as being more successful.
p.s. - yes I am trying to steer away from politics!
p.s. - yes I am trying to steer away from politics!
RDW- Founder
- Posts : 33184
Join date : 2011-06-01
Location : Sydney
Re: Scottish Rugby
Since Sept 2004
Played 105, won 41, lost 63, drawn 1. Scored 163 tries (1.55 per game), conceded 237 (2.26 per game).
Against 3N, ENG & FRA (top teams). played 42, won 6 , lost 35, drawn 1. Scored 39 tries (0.93 per game), conceded 122 (2.90 per game).
6N played 50, won 12, lost 37, drawn 1. Scored 51 tries (1.02 per game), conceded 118 (2.36 per game).
Out of those 12 wins
6 vs Italy
2 vs England
2 vs Ireland
1 vs Wales
1 vs France
During that time Scotland beat every team they faced at least once bar NZ.
In essence a little silver lining at the end to disguise the fact we're more depressing than a Coldplay album
Good enough RDW???
Played 105, won 41, lost 63, drawn 1. Scored 163 tries (1.55 per game), conceded 237 (2.26 per game).
Against 3N, ENG & FRA (top teams). played 42, won 6 , lost 35, drawn 1. Scored 39 tries (0.93 per game), conceded 122 (2.90 per game).
6N played 50, won 12, lost 37, drawn 1. Scored 51 tries (1.02 per game), conceded 118 (2.36 per game).
Out of those 12 wins
6 vs Italy
2 vs England
2 vs Ireland
1 vs Wales
1 vs France
During that time Scotland beat every team they faced at least once bar NZ.
In essence a little silver lining at the end to disguise the fact we're more depressing than a Coldplay album
Good enough RDW???
fa0019- Posts : 8196
Join date : 2011-07-25
Re: Scottish Rugby
I suppose that will suffice!
The 6N stats are truly awful - we really need to be doing better there if we are to judge the next decade as a success. 12 games won out of 50?? Our scoring stats are awful too - I think we only scored 42 points in the whole of this years' 6N.
The 6N stats are truly awful - we really need to be doing better there if we are to judge the next decade as a success. 12 games won out of 50?? Our scoring stats are awful too - I think we only scored 42 points in the whole of this years' 6N.
RDW- Founder
- Posts : 33184
Join date : 2011-06-01
Location : Sydney
Re: Scottish Rugby
even worse
on average we have only scored more than 1 try per game against these teams (of those in the 6N or RC).
Italy - a pitiful 1.53 per game
France - a surprising 1.40 per game
The rest are all below 1.00
Added to that, the team who on ave. have conceded the least is.... England (0.72) followed by Argentina.... probably because the 3N sides don't care after they put on 50 points to no reply!!!
All stated out.
on average we have only scored more than 1 try per game against these teams (of those in the 6N or RC).
Italy - a pitiful 1.53 per game
France - a surprising 1.40 per game
The rest are all below 1.00
Added to that, the team who on ave. have conceded the least is.... England (0.72) followed by Argentina.... probably because the 3N sides don't care after they put on 50 points to no reply!!!
All stated out.
fa0019- Posts : 8196
Join date : 2011-07-25
Re: Scottish Rugby
Sounds to me like a real focus over the coming years is scoring some fecking points.
I know it sounds basic, but we humph about and grunt and groan to get a 3 point penalty, then 5 minutes later the opposition breaks through and gets an easy try.
We won't start regularly beating teams like Wales and Ireland, and even England and France, if we can't score points. Obviously a lot goes into scoring tries - you need a strong set piece, varied gameplan, good kicking and a strong defence to force turnovers - but it just comes down to players having good rugby skills and exciting play.
To that end I am a more positive about the future - players like Scott, Dunbar, Messiah, Visser, Maitland, Hogg etc are real X-factor players who should improve our attacking abilities. They are all young too so plenty time to get used to the Internal arena.
We just need the pack to get them decent ball..
I know it sounds basic, but we humph about and grunt and groan to get a 3 point penalty, then 5 minutes later the opposition breaks through and gets an easy try.
We won't start regularly beating teams like Wales and Ireland, and even England and France, if we can't score points. Obviously a lot goes into scoring tries - you need a strong set piece, varied gameplan, good kicking and a strong defence to force turnovers - but it just comes down to players having good rugby skills and exciting play.
To that end I am a more positive about the future - players like Scott, Dunbar, Messiah, Visser, Maitland, Hogg etc are real X-factor players who should improve our attacking abilities. They are all young too so plenty time to get used to the Internal arena.
We just need the pack to get them decent ball..
RDW- Founder
- Posts : 33184
Join date : 2011-06-01
Location : Sydney
Re: Scottish Rugby
fa0019 wrote:funnyExiledScot wrote:I'd have voted for independence if only I'd known that Alex Salmond was going to make paying tax optional!!
meaning you're going to vote tory now they'll reduce your tax bill??? Got to be one in Scotland that does right?
For the record I have never voted Tory in my life. I was refering to the announcement that people would be forgiven tax debts on the grounds that they don't like the tax!
funnyExiledScot- Posts : 17072
Join date : 2011-05-31
Age : 43
Location : Edinburgh
Re: Scottish Rugby
RDW_Scotland wrote:Sounds to me like a real focus over the coming years is scoring some fecking points.
I know it sounds basic, but we humph about and grunt and groan to get a 3 point penalty, then 5 minutes later the opposition breaks through and gets an easy try.
We won't start regularly beating teams like Wales and Ireland, and even England and France, if we can't score points. Obviously a lot goes into scoring tries - you need a strong set piece, varied gameplan, good kicking and a strong defence to force turnovers - but it just comes down to players having good rugby skills and exciting play.
To that end I am a more positive about the future - players like Scott, Dunbar, Messiah, Visser, Maitland, Hogg etc are real X-factor players who should improve our attacking abilities. They are all young too so plenty time to get used to the Internal arena.
We just need the pack to get them decent ball..
100% agree with this. We have to learn how to capitalise on turnover ball and convert opportunities. When other sides have overlaps, turnover ball and open space they score tries. When presented with such opportunities we consult page 5 subsection 3 of the "play by numbers coaching manual" and give the ball to Laidlaw or Weir and duly ask them to kick it away, usually with no degree of accuracy. Edinburgh are now taking this to a new extreme.
We have to learn how to play at pace, take risks and score tries. We have the wide players to do this, no question. Hogg, Visser, Seymour and Maitland are top class players who will finish opportunities. We need to make sure that the players inside them are aware that they are standing out there and create as much space for them as possible, rather than running into the nearest opposition player or hoofing the ball away.
It all sounds so simple, but we continue to make such heavy weather of scoring points. We have made squandering opportunities into an art form.
funnyExiledScot- Posts : 17072
Join date : 2011-05-31
Age : 43
Location : Edinburgh
Re: Scottish Rugby
FES - I think a lot of that is two things - rigid instructions from the coach " in your half kick it" and a lack of confidence
TJ- Posts : 8629
Join date : 2013-09-22
Re: Scottish Rugby
Reminds me of the line in a Damon Runyon short story, "I am long ago coming to the conclusion" says Hot Horse Herbie, "that everything in life is 6 to 4 against."fa0019 wrote:Since Sept 2004
Played 105, won 41, lost 63, drawn 1. Scored 163 tries (1.55 per game), conceded 237 (2.26 per game).
jimbopip- Posts : 7328
Join date : 2012-10-14
Location : sunny Essex
Re: Scottish Rugby
Impressed by the young Glasgow prop Zander Fagerson today, hell of a unit for an 18 year old, anchored the scrum well and played on his toes in the loose. Allan has been a doing fantastically well too. Plus over at Edinburgh Sutherland, Dell and Berghan are all SQ and young for props.
More established guys like Welsh, Grant, Cusack, Low and Reid all have another 5/6 years on the clock if they avoid serious injuries.
Hooker is one area I'm a bit concerned about over medium-long term. Ford could probably play for another 4/5 years but Lawson and Hall are both near the end. Behind them, MacArthur has been consistent for Glasgow and still has plenty time but hasn't been given the chance yet. While Brown is still a relative novice, not sure if he'll be international class. Who knows how McInally will end up. The cupboard then begins to look a little bare, anyone know of any prospects to look out for? Read Fergus Scott (brother of Matt) had impressed in pre-season with Glasgow.
More established guys like Welsh, Grant, Cusack, Low and Reid all have another 5/6 years on the clock if they avoid serious injuries.
Hooker is one area I'm a bit concerned about over medium-long term. Ford could probably play for another 4/5 years but Lawson and Hall are both near the end. Behind them, MacArthur has been consistent for Glasgow and still has plenty time but hasn't been given the chance yet. While Brown is still a relative novice, not sure if he'll be international class. Who knows how McInally will end up. The cupboard then begins to look a little bare, anyone know of any prospects to look out for? Read Fergus Scott (brother of Matt) had impressed in pre-season with Glasgow.
reallybored- Posts : 928
Join date : 2012-07-13
Re: Scottish Rugby
ZF was indeed very impressive. He came on when Glasgow were down to 13 with Treviso having a scrum put in on their line and the 7 Warriors held them and then won a penalty when his opponent went down. A very good first test which he past with flying colours. We have got to keep in mind that he is still 18 and will not get to much Pro 12 game time this year but that this will all be great experience for him. He definitely looks like one for the future and its a long time since we have been able to say that about a Scottish TH.
It is probably worth saying here as well what a good job Glasgow are actually doing about bringing through there own young players. Gray x 2, Bennett, Horne, Hogg, Dunbar and Russell are the obvious ones and plenty others on the fringes as well. It says a lot about the coaching and the culture at the club. There really is a 'if you are good enough, you are old enough culture. Very much in the image of the coach, who least we forget was also an extremely good player at a very young age.
It is probably worth saying here as well what a good job Glasgow are actually doing about bringing through there own young players. Gray x 2, Bennett, Horne, Hogg, Dunbar and Russell are the obvious ones and plenty others on the fringes as well. It says a lot about the coaching and the culture at the club. There really is a 'if you are good enough, you are old enough culture. Very much in the image of the coach, who least we forget was also an extremely good player at a very young age.
BigGee- Admin
- Posts : 15481
Join date : 2013-11-05
Location : London
Re: Scottish Rugby
Genuine question - will we see many Edinburgh players involved in the AIs?
I suspect Dickinson and Ross Ford (rightly or wrongly), and if Gilchrist gets a run of matches together he will no doubt be involved, but can't see any more than that.
Hamish Watson started the season very brightly indeed but has been anonymous the last few games he's played.
At the start of the season I would have thought Kennedy and Sam H-C would stand a chance, but I've been disappointed with them. They have not been helped by our pack being terrible, but Kennedy's basic skills have been poor (the things he is meant to be good at) and is obviously being coached to play like Laidlaw, which he can't do well, and Sam H-C has been a bit of a headless chicken when he's played. Solomons will have a lot to answer for if he ruins these two.
Tonks hasn't been helped by his early season injury and being moved back to fullback, but he's at least looked interested whenever he's played unlike most the squad. Cuthbert is a shadow of the player he was last season but again hasn't been helped by being put on the wing.
Heathcoat has been solid yet unspectacular, but I suspect he'll be in the squad as the 3rd fly half option and goal kicker, unless VC sees Horne as a better option.
As for Visser, well his defence has been as bad as it's ever been, and he's not the attacking force we all know he can be. Again this has not been helped by the poor performance of the rest of the team.
As things stand I'd probably go for the following squad, who two players mentioned where I'm just now sure how VC will play it
1 Shrek
2 Ford/McArthur
3 Rev
4 Gray snr
5 Gray jnr
6 Harley/Brown
7 Barclay/Cowan (although I suspect it will be Brown)
8 Beattie
9 Cusiter/Laidlaw
10 Weir
11 Lamont/Seymour (although the prospect of Lamont vs Ben Smith terrifies me)
12 Dunbar
13 Messiah
14 Maitland/Seymour (if Maitland can get some gametime)
15 Hogg
Bench - Dickinson/Allan, McArtuther/Ford/Brown, Low/Cross/Welsh (the first two aren't getting gametime, and I think Welsh hasn't played much if at all), Gilchrist/Hamilton, Brown/Ashe/Fusaro, Cusiter/Laidlaw, Russell, Dunbar/Lamont/Murchie
Something like that. So at best, 3 Edinburgh players in the 23.
I suspect Dickinson and Ross Ford (rightly or wrongly), and if Gilchrist gets a run of matches together he will no doubt be involved, but can't see any more than that.
Hamish Watson started the season very brightly indeed but has been anonymous the last few games he's played.
At the start of the season I would have thought Kennedy and Sam H-C would stand a chance, but I've been disappointed with them. They have not been helped by our pack being terrible, but Kennedy's basic skills have been poor (the things he is meant to be good at) and is obviously being coached to play like Laidlaw, which he can't do well, and Sam H-C has been a bit of a headless chicken when he's played. Solomons will have a lot to answer for if he ruins these two.
Tonks hasn't been helped by his early season injury and being moved back to fullback, but he's at least looked interested whenever he's played unlike most the squad. Cuthbert is a shadow of the player he was last season but again hasn't been helped by being put on the wing.
Heathcoat has been solid yet unspectacular, but I suspect he'll be in the squad as the 3rd fly half option and goal kicker, unless VC sees Horne as a better option.
As for Visser, well his defence has been as bad as it's ever been, and he's not the attacking force we all know he can be. Again this has not been helped by the poor performance of the rest of the team.
As things stand I'd probably go for the following squad, who two players mentioned where I'm just now sure how VC will play it
1 Shrek
2 Ford/McArthur
3 Rev
4 Gray snr
5 Gray jnr
6 Harley/Brown
7 Barclay/Cowan (although I suspect it will be Brown)
8 Beattie
9 Cusiter/Laidlaw
10 Weir
11 Lamont/Seymour (although the prospect of Lamont vs Ben Smith terrifies me)
12 Dunbar
13 Messiah
14 Maitland/Seymour (if Maitland can get some gametime)
15 Hogg
Bench - Dickinson/Allan, McArtuther/Ford/Brown, Low/Cross/Welsh (the first two aren't getting gametime, and I think Welsh hasn't played much if at all), Gilchrist/Hamilton, Brown/Ashe/Fusaro, Cusiter/Laidlaw, Russell, Dunbar/Lamont/Murchie
Something like that. So at best, 3 Edinburgh players in the 23.
RDW- Founder
- Posts : 33184
Join date : 2011-06-01
Location : Sydney
Re: Scottish Rugby
Visser will definitely be in the squad and almost positive he'd be starting too, he's our best out and out finisher. Imagine the damage he'd be doing if he played from Glasgow.
Wonder if Allan could force his way in, if he keeps Reid out of Glasgow team for next few weeks then I'd be happy for him to start against Pumas. Back-up to Murray is an interesting conundrum, Low hasn't been getting much game-time and not sure Dr Cross has played yet. Zander Fargeson anyone?
I'm thinking;
1 - Allan
2 - Ford
3 - Murray
4 - Gray
5 - Gray
6 - Harley
7 - Barclay
8 - Beattie
9 - Cusiter
10 - Russell
11 - Visser
12 - Dunbar
13 - Bennett
14 - Seymour
15 - Hogg
16 - MacArthur
17 - Reid
18 - ?
19 - Hamilton
20 - Brown
21 - Laidlaw
22 - Weir
23 - Maitland
Wonder if Allan could force his way in, if he keeps Reid out of Glasgow team for next few weeks then I'd be happy for him to start against Pumas. Back-up to Murray is an interesting conundrum, Low hasn't been getting much game-time and not sure Dr Cross has played yet. Zander Fargeson anyone?
I'm thinking;
1 - Allan
2 - Ford
3 - Murray
4 - Gray
5 - Gray
6 - Harley
7 - Barclay
8 - Beattie
9 - Cusiter
10 - Russell
11 - Visser
12 - Dunbar
13 - Bennett
14 - Seymour
15 - Hogg
16 - MacArthur
17 - Reid
18 - ?
19 - Hamilton
20 - Brown
21 - Laidlaw
22 - Weir
23 - Maitland
reallybored- Posts : 928
Join date : 2012-07-13
Re: Scottish Rugby
As far as I'm concerned Visser will start, and IMO will be the only Edinburgh player who will.
His try scoring record at the international level speaks for itself. My Team :
1. Allan
2. MacArthur
3. Murray
4. Gray
5. Gray
6. Brown (C)
7. Barclay
8. Beattie
9. Laidlaw
10. Russell
11. Visser
12. Dunbar
13. Bennett
14. Seymore
15. Hogg
Ford, Reid, Tightheads... please stand up, Gilchrist/Hamilton, Cowan, Cusiter, Horne, Maitland
Matt Scott is still our best 12 IMO but is very Rory Lamont when it comes to injuies. Number 8s are a bit thin on the ground but when Denton Gets back I think it will be him and Strauss when he becomes quallified.
His try scoring record at the international level speaks for itself. My Team :
1. Allan
2. MacArthur
3. Murray
4. Gray
5. Gray
6. Brown (C)
7. Barclay
8. Beattie
9. Laidlaw
10. Russell
11. Visser
12. Dunbar
13. Bennett
14. Seymore
15. Hogg
Ford, Reid, Tightheads... please stand up, Gilchrist/Hamilton, Cowan, Cusiter, Horne, Maitland
Matt Scott is still our best 12 IMO but is very Rory Lamont when it comes to injuies. Number 8s are a bit thin on the ground but when Denton Gets back I think it will be him and Strauss when he becomes quallified.
RuggerRadge2611- Posts : 7194
Join date : 2011-03-04
Age : 39
Location : The North, The REAL North (Beyond the Wall)
Re: Scottish Rugby
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:As far as I'm concerned Visser will start, and IMO will be the only Edinburgh player who will.
His try scoring record at the international level speaks for itself. My Team :
1. Allan
2. MacArthur
3. Murray
4. Gray
5. Gray
6. Brown (C)
7. Barclay
8. Beattie
9. Laidlaw
10. Russell
11. Visser
12. Dunbar
13. Bennett
14. Seymore
15. Hogg
Ford, Reid, Tightheads... please stand up, Gilchrist/Hamilton, Cowan, Cusiter, Horne, Maitland
Matt Scott is still our best 12 IMO but is very Rory Lamont when it comes to injuies. Number 8s are a bit thin on the ground but when Denton Gets back I think it will be him and Strauss when he becomes quallified.
The only change I'd make to that team is Cusiter in for Laidlaw. Cus brings far more zip to our game, we need to get the ball out to our backs more quickly than we have been with Laidlaw at 9.
Captain_Sensible- Posts : 699
Join date : 2012-05-03
Re: Scottish Rugby
Laidlaw was excellent for Glaws against the Tigers at the weekend. Hook and Laidlaw are quite a potent half back combo. They were pretty scintilating to be honest.
RuggerRadge2611- Posts : 7194
Join date : 2011-03-04
Age : 39
Location : The North, The REAL North (Beyond the Wall)
Re: Scottish Rugby
I suspect Laidlaw is relishing playing with an International class 10 outside him, and a creative one at that.
I suspect the problems we have with him at Scotland is that - either through coaching or by his choice - because there are question marks whoever is playing 10 for us, Laidlaw spends too much time trying to direct play and take responsibility from our 10.
With Hook outside him all he needs to do is get the ball to him, and fast.
I suspect the problems we have with him at Scotland is that - either through coaching or by his choice - because there are question marks whoever is playing 10 for us, Laidlaw spends too much time trying to direct play and take responsibility from our 10.
With Hook outside him all he needs to do is get the ball to him, and fast.
RDW- Founder
- Posts : 33184
Join date : 2011-06-01
Location : Sydney
Re: Scottish Rugby
I don't get all the love for Allan, as good as he is around the pitch, his scrummaging leaves a lot to be desired, i had a good look at him over the weekend, he was put on the backfoot by opposition TH more often than not.
In my opinion Dickinson is still the best LH is Scotland good around the field and good scrummager (probably a bit better than Grant).
As for Reid is scrummaging is ok but only just, wouldn't feel confident if he faces someone like Mas.
I still have a hard time accepting Welsh switch to the TH side.
In my opinion Dickinson is still the best LH is Scotland good around the field and good scrummager (probably a bit better than Grant).
As for Reid is scrummaging is ok but only just, wouldn't feel confident if he faces someone like Mas.
I still have a hard time accepting Welsh switch to the TH side.
VinceWLB- Posts : 3841
Join date : 2012-10-14
Re: Scottish Rugby
Not sure I agree with this.VinceWLB wrote:I don't get all the love for Allan, as good as he is around the pitch, his scrummaging leaves a lot to be desired, i had a good look at him over the weekend, he was put on the backfoot by opposition TH more often than not.
In my opinion Dickinson is still the best LH is Scotland good around the field and good scrummager (probably a bit better than Grant).
As for Reid is scrummaging is ok but only just, wouldn't feel confident if he faces someone like Mas.
I still have a hard time accepting Welsh switch to the TH side.
Grant had an below-average season last year but head and shoulders above the other competitors when fit and firing. He was one of our best players in 6 Nations 2013, had a ridiculous tackle count and ended up 5th top tackler in tournament.
reallybored- Posts : 928
Join date : 2012-07-13
Re: Scottish Rugby
Grant has reached no where near those levels since the lions tour though.
RDW- Founder
- Posts : 33184
Join date : 2011-06-01
Location : Sydney
Re: Scottish Rugby
He hasn't been the same since the new scrum laws.
Not denying his work around the field, he is like an extra flanker when he is on form.
Dickinson on the other hand has thrived with the new laws and was badly missed in Ulster.
Not denying his work around the field, he is like an extra flanker when he is on form.
Dickinson on the other hand has thrived with the new laws and was badly missed in Ulster.
VinceWLB- Posts : 3841
Join date : 2012-10-14
Re: Scottish Rugby
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Laidlaw was excellent for Glaws against the Tigers at the weekend. Hook and Laidlaw are quite a potent half back combo. They were pretty scintilating to be honest.
It certainly was nice to see wee Greig playing behind a pack who gave him some decent ball - and perhaps he was not under instructions to box kick everything. Looks to be rediscovering his best form. Its good we have two real class acts at 9 and laidlaw can also cover 10 which makes the bench easier to pick
TJ- Posts : 8629
Join date : 2013-09-22
Re: Scottish Rugby
Just watched the Gloucester highlights - even the commentators were saying Laidlaw was excellent and, interestingly, very quick around the rucks with good service.
So he's obviously doing well from his move down south!
So he's obviously doing well from his move down south!
RDW- Founder
- Posts : 33184
Join date : 2011-06-01
Location : Sydney
Re: Scottish Rugby
Gloucester get quicker service from Robson. Would prefer to see Laidlaw at ten and Hook either at FB or centre.RDW_Scotland wrote:Just watched the Gloucester highlights - even the commentators were saying Laidlaw was excellent and, interestingly, very quick around the rucks with good service.
So he's obviously doing well from his move down south!
Exiledinborders- Posts : 1645
Join date : 2012-03-18
Location : Scottish Borders
Re: Scottish Rugby
Laidlaw and Hook were outstanding at 9 and 10 at the weekend. Robson has more pace, but that chip over the top for the May try a couple of weeks ago was Laidlaw at his very best. Hook's jinking run for the bonus try that should have been against Leicester was also out of the top drawer. Given the performances and league placing of Glaws at the moment, they would be daft to move Laidlaw and Hook. Robson is a perfect impact sub off the bench for Laidlaw.
Cusiter is also playing well at Sale. Great individual effort to score against Wasps at the weekend. Nice to see Cusiter doing the charging down rather than the other way around.
Ali Hogg also on good form at Newcastle (he's been pretty solid there now for a few seasons).
Cusiter is also playing well at Sale. Great individual effort to score against Wasps at the weekend. Nice to see Cusiter doing the charging down rather than the other way around.
Ali Hogg also on good form at Newcastle (he's been pretty solid there now for a few seasons).
funnyExiledScot- Posts : 17072
Join date : 2011-05-31
Age : 43
Location : Edinburgh
Re: Scottish Rugby
Think Laidlaw had a very good game at the weekend for Glaws and certainly looked very sharp. However I hadn't been overly impressed with him in the other games so far for them. He still seemed to be passing very slowly and was getting caught a fair bit with the ball.
Hopefully he is getting to grips with the premiership and will see performances like that week in week out.
Cusiter has been playing really well at Sale and looks to be in top form for them. I would definitely have him as starting 9 for Scotland. He has a very sharp pass, good kick on him and always looks a real threat to the opposition around the fringes.
The other scrum half I have been very impressed with in the premiership is London Irish's Scott Steele. He has looked very good so far and has been getting rave reviews from commentators and the media. Was injured and didn't play against the Saints at the weekend which Irish said was one of the reasons they didn't beat the Saints.
At the moment I would have him as back up scrum half for Scotland ahead of Laidlaw.
Hopefully he is getting to grips with the premiership and will see performances like that week in week out.
Cusiter has been playing really well at Sale and looks to be in top form for them. I would definitely have him as starting 9 for Scotland. He has a very sharp pass, good kick on him and always looks a real threat to the opposition around the fringes.
The other scrum half I have been very impressed with in the premiership is London Irish's Scott Steele. He has looked very good so far and has been getting rave reviews from commentators and the media. Was injured and didn't play against the Saints at the weekend which Irish said was one of the reasons they didn't beat the Saints.
At the moment I would have him as back up scrum half for Scotland ahead of Laidlaw.
Majestic83- Posts : 1580
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : East Lothian/Aberdeenshire
Re: Scottish Rugby
When is the squad likely to be announced?
reallybored- Posts : 928
Join date : 2012-07-13
Re: Scottish Rugby
I wouldn't be opposed to Dickinson starting at loosie. He has been very good under the rule change.
The change in rules has brought back technique and guile as opposed to brute strength in the Scrum.
Technique is something Dickinson never lacked but getting smashed by some of the monstrous Tightheads that test match rugby can cough up he looked beaten before the ball was in.
Now with the controlled engagement he can use his size to detabalize the tighthead and provide a very good platfrom for the hooker to hook from and throw the opposition off balance.
He gets about the park too does Dickinson.
Allan is getting the praise because Glasgow are getting the praise. It's understandable but I wouldn't be upset if Dickinson started any of the Autumn games.
The change in rules has brought back technique and guile as opposed to brute strength in the Scrum.
Technique is something Dickinson never lacked but getting smashed by some of the monstrous Tightheads that test match rugby can cough up he looked beaten before the ball was in.
Now with the controlled engagement he can use his size to detabalize the tighthead and provide a very good platfrom for the hooker to hook from and throw the opposition off balance.
He gets about the park too does Dickinson.
Allan is getting the praise because Glasgow are getting the praise. It's understandable but I wouldn't be upset if Dickinson started any of the Autumn games.
RuggerRadge2611- Posts : 7194
Join date : 2011-03-04
Age : 39
Location : The North, The REAL North (Beyond the Wall)
Re: Scottish Rugby
This article bodes well. Sounds like Hogg has learnt his lesson the hard way. Good dose of humility
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby/latest/scotland-tour-helped-hogg-reclaim-warriors-place-1-3565936
"“I really enjoyed the summer tour with Scotland, it made up for what happened back in the Six Nations and brought light at the end of the tunnel,” said Hogg.
“It was great to get the try against the USA and follow that up with a decent game against Canada and another try against Argentina and then the whole experience with the Scotland Sevens at Ibrox was a real buzz and gave me a new lease of life.
“But I have learned a lot from the past 12 months, drawn a line under it and now it’s great to be back enjoying my rugby again.”
Hogg also paid a glowing tribute to team-mate Murchie, whose composure and consistency saw Hogg miss out on last term’s showpiece Pro12 final at the RDS against Leinster.
“Peter Murchie is so solid under the high ball, he makes some great runs and he was playing out of his skin at the end of last season and he deserved it,” admitted Hogg. “The flip side of that was my attitude was not good, I was struggling to get into the side on form and I was disappointed with myself.
“On the other hand Murchie was playing the rugby of his life and when that happens sometimes you just have to say that the other guy deserves it more. But I believe I learned from all of that and I’m the better for it.”
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby/latest/scotland-tour-helped-hogg-reclaim-warriors-place-1-3565936
"“I really enjoyed the summer tour with Scotland, it made up for what happened back in the Six Nations and brought light at the end of the tunnel,” said Hogg.
“It was great to get the try against the USA and follow that up with a decent game against Canada and another try against Argentina and then the whole experience with the Scotland Sevens at Ibrox was a real buzz and gave me a new lease of life.
“But I have learned a lot from the past 12 months, drawn a line under it and now it’s great to be back enjoying my rugby again.”
Hogg also paid a glowing tribute to team-mate Murchie, whose composure and consistency saw Hogg miss out on last term’s showpiece Pro12 final at the RDS against Leinster.
“Peter Murchie is so solid under the high ball, he makes some great runs and he was playing out of his skin at the end of last season and he deserved it,” admitted Hogg. “The flip side of that was my attitude was not good, I was struggling to get into the side on form and I was disappointed with myself.
“On the other hand Murchie was playing the rugby of his life and when that happens sometimes you just have to say that the other guy deserves it more. But I believe I learned from all of that and I’m the better for it.”
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