SANZAR versus 6N

Well well well, Argentina are off the mark.

After a season of almost and nearly they have their first win.

What is more surprising is the nature of the win. This wasn't a victory ground out using traditional Argentinian strengths in the set piece, against a backdrop of foul weather.
Argentina have embraced open attacking rugby and are now capable of fluent effective high tempo rugby that would make any nation proud.

So how have SANZAR managed to help Argentina to this new plateau? And how have the 6N failed to elevate Italian rugby in the same way?

Argentina have beaten Australia four times before, including once in Brisbane. Before they joined the Rugby Championship, they finished third in the 2007 World Cup. They did so by beating the French side who knocked New Zealand out in the quarter finals.

The real achievement for the Argentinian players has been to harness their proven class, and manage to perform on a Southern Hemisphere schedule when many of their players are playing club rugby in the North. Only a few top Sprinboks face a similar challenge.

What they did wrong was use the time between 2007 and their entry in pushing for a SXV side a season or two before it and instead focussing on their players in NH clubs. That more than anything else prevented better success in the RC to date. It is the sxv that provides the core of the top 3 ranked and Argentina's absence from it shows.

I don't think the win over Oz is a huge success, its just well overdue...they should have had a win at least at home well before now.

Of their 16 matched they've now played 16 won 1, drawn 1 and lost 14, and of the 14 losses 7 were lost by 7 or less.

It has been 18 matches Tman, 6 per tournament.

Italy have a better record in 6Ns than Arg in sanzar comp.

Arg have larger rugby playing population than Italy too.

As fior Arg success, professionalism and the NH club games have allowed Arg, Samoa, Fiji etc players access to world class methods and standards that their own national teams do not have the resources for

Lets face it, since last year Arg has threatened to beat sides more than once. I do think that introducing them to the RC was good for them.

I think by next year they will also be in the top 8 in the rankings. They will move up as they play against the better sides more often. If they get two wins next year they might even move up into the top 6.

What Argentina now need is their own professional competition, it is all good and well to have players make a living overseas, but when it comes to availability matters are not just straight forward.

I think the greatest improvement is how quickly, and starkly their dunning game has improved. I thought they were magnificent against the All Blacks last week, from their own 22, just that unforced errors saw them generally go from advantageous position, to mostly, a try down.

Now, as for why they've improved so quickly and Italy haven't. Well, they had a better platform. Back to back Rwc QFs plus perfomances.

FerN wrote:...I think by next year they will also be in the top 8 in the rankings.  They will move up as they play against the better sides more often. If they get two wins next year they might even move up into the top 6.

You are talking about a side which has already reached number three in the IRB Rankings. They were sixth in the world even before their World Cup run in 2007. Argentina took the training wheels off some time ago.

One factor now affecting their IRB ranking is their inability to field a first choice team during the June international window. To prepare for the Rugby Championship, which starts in the middle of August, the Pumas play two warm up games at the end of July and beginning of August. Without those games, they would go into the Rugby Championship having not played together as a team for nearly nine months.

There is no way players can finish a Northern season, play a full June international calendar, and then assemble for a Rugby Championship training camp only a few weeks later. Something has to give, and its the June matches. They did manage a win over Italy and France in 2012 but lost both matches to England and Ireland in subsequent years.

Argentina have been playing some brilliant, adventurous rugby this tournament, the problem is that their error count is so much higher than the other teams in the RC- who are, to be fair, the top three teams in World Rugby. They do not have that clinical streak and they are just as likely to undo some brilliant approach play with a knock-on or a sloppy ruck that allows the opponents to get over the ball. They have a tendency to force the play and make errors.

But the sheer untapped potential that exists in Argentinean rugby is huge. Once these guys are all playing together in SuperRugby, they will have the benefit of much better preparation. Now that the psychological milestone of the first win is out of the way, they can only get better.

Rugby Fan wrote:

FerN wrote:...I think by next year they will also be in the top 8 in the rankings.  They will move up as they play against the better sides more often. If they get two wins next year they might even move up into the top 6.

You are talking about a side which has already reached number three in the IRB Rankings. They were sixth in the world even before their World Cup run in 2007. Argentina took the training wheels off some time ago.

One factor now affecting their IRB ranking is their inability to field a first choice team during the June international window. To prepare for the Rugby Championship, which starts in the middle of August, the Pumas play two warm up games at the end of July and beginning of August. Without those games, they would go into the Rugby Championship having not played together as a team for nearly nine months.

There is no way players can finish a Northern season, play a full June international calendar, and then assemble for a Rugby Championship training camp only a few weeks later. Something has to give, and its the June matches. They did manage a win over Italy and France in 2012 but lost both matches to England and Ireland in subsequent years.

After a World Cup with a few surprise wins the rankings are all broken. So that 3rd is a bit broken.

But your other points are valid. That is why their super rugby team is becoming so important.

Italy have beaten everyone bar England no? In 15 seasons

6 vs. Scotland.
2 vs. France.
2 vs. Wales.
1 vs. Ireland.

2 weeks ago people were asking if Argentina should be dropped. 1 win doesn't mean the flood gates will open. I doubt they will get a result vs. NZ anytime soon and to be honest I think SA will take them more seriously now and make defeat unlikely.

France and Ireland should be worried though. Come second in their group and NZ awaits with defeat almost certain. Win and Argentina are no push over.

Biltong wrote:What Argentina now need is their own professional competition, it is all good and well to have players make a living overseas, but when it comes to availability matters are not just straight forward.

One of Argentina's greatest achievment was the number of pampas XV players (or ex ones) they had in their squad against Australia : 19 out of 23. Including a brand new backrow (without matera, leguizamon injured, lobbe back in France) with an uncapped 20 years old. That means that they can produce players without their own pro club structure.

whocares wrote:

Biltong wrote:What Argentina now need is their own professional competition, it is all good and well to have players make a living overseas, but when it comes to availability matters are not just straight forward.

One of Argentina's greatest achievment was the number of pampas XV players (or ex ones) they had in their squad against Australia : 19 out of 23. Including a brand new backrow (without matera, leguizamon injured, lobbe back in France) with an uncapped 20 years old. That means that they can produce players without their own pro club structure.

Yes, but think about it, in June they struggle to put a first choice team together, hence their ranking always drops in June, if their players are local, they are readily available and it will benefit their national team.

fa0019 wrote:Italy have beaten everyone bar England no? In 15 seasons

6 vs. Scotland.
2 vs. France.
2 vs. Wales.
1 vs. Ireland.

2 weeks ago people were asking if Argentina should be dropped. 1 win doesn't mean the flood gates will open. I doubt they will get a result vs. NZ anytime soon and to be honest I think SA will take them more seriously now and make defeat unlikely.

France and Ireland should be worried though. Come second in their group and NZ awaits with defeat almost certain. Win and Argentina are no push over.

Well I dont think Ireland will beat New Zealand but I think that NZ should be a little worried. France have slumped to second in their last two RWC groups and have had strong world cups from there coming 4th and 2nd knocking out NZ on one occasion and almost beating them in NZ on the second.

Ireland are undefeated in 3 games v France and undefeated in 5 games v Argentina. Whereas Argentina have a better record v France. I reckon Argentina and NZ will also be worried with how the Ireland France group could go, no?

Over the years Argentina have beaten most tier 1 sides including under the pseudo nym
jaguars SA,and drawn with them,drawn with NZ.Given on most occassions SANZAR has
been IRB number 1,2,3 most of the time and is usually at a higher level than the 6Ns.

Argentina at full strength with team at Super.or HC level to support them will be a force to be reckoned with.Also given ARG is still organised on amateur lines at home are doing very well.

the South American jaguars are Argentina.

Yes they had non Argentinians in the squad but every player on the pitch that day was Argentinian.

15 Argentinians in the end beat 15 South Africans (1982 right Alan?).

That's good enough for me.

If 15 Irish beat NZ in a lions jersey in 2017 I'd be happy to concede the win towards Ireland.

fa0019 wrote:the South American jaguars are Argentina.

Yes they had non Argentinians in the squad but every player on the pitch that day was Argentinian.

15 Argentinians in the end beat 15 South Africans (1982 right Alan?).

That's good enough for me.

If 15 Irish beat NZ in a lions jersey in 2017 I'd be happy to concede the win towards Ireland.

Well when Munster beat NZ there were 15 Irish men playing for Munster. Does that mean Ireland have actually won v NZ? Good stuff.

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:the South American jaguars are Argentina.

Yes they had non Argentinians in the squad but every player on the pitch that day was Argentinian.

15 Argentinians in the end beat 15 South Africans (1982 right Alan?).

That's good enough for me.

If 15 Irish beat NZ in a lions jersey in 2017 I'd be happy to concede the win towards Ireland.

Well when Munster beat NZ there were 15 Irish men playing for Munster. Does that mean Ireland have actually won v NZ? Good stuff.

If it was a full NZ XV then sure? If it was say a Saturday tour game with near all the NZ test players certainly I agree.

In the Jaguars case, it was a test match, the boks played it as a test match with their best available players.

emack2 wrote:Over the years Argentina have beaten most tier 1 sides including under the pseudo nym
jaguars SA,and drawn with them,drawn with NZ.Given on most occassions SANZAR has
been IRB number 1,2,3 most of the time and is usually at a higher level than the 6Ns.

Argentina at full strength with team at Super.or HC level to support them will be a force to be reckoned with.Also given ARG is still organised on amateur lines at home are doing very well.

From what I see, Argentina's big problem is a lack of depth.  In 2007 they showed the true potential in the country.  But depth being poor they struggled in the interim.  Now, they seem to be on the uptick again.  Let's see if they have built more depth.  Their top level talent is usually right about there with other major nations.

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:the South American jaguars are Argentina.

Yes they had non Argentinians in the squad but every player on the pitch that day was Argentinian.

15 Argentinians in the end beat 15 South Africans (1982 right Alan?).

That's good enough for me.

If 15 Irish beat NZ in a lions jersey in 2017 I'd be happy to concede the win towards Ireland.

Well when Munster beat NZ there were 15 Irish men playing for Munster. Does that mean Ireland have actually won v NZ? Good stuff.

If it was a full NZ XV then sure? If it was say a Saturday tour game with near all the NZ test players certainly I agree.

In the Jaguars case, it was a test match, the boks played it as a test match with their best available players.

Munster beat Nz? Wow, I thought we would've heard more about it.

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:the South American jaguars are Argentina.

Yes they had non Argentinians in the squad but every player on the pitch that day was Argentinian.

15 Argentinians in the end beat 15 South Africans (1982 right Alan?).

That's good enough for me.

If 15 Irish beat NZ in a lions jersey in 2017 I'd be happy to concede the win towards Ireland.

Well when Munster beat NZ there were 15 Irish men playing for Munster. Does that mean Ireland have actually won v NZ? Good stuff.

So Wales did beat us in the 70's after all...good to hear...

When was that? Lions 71? Quite a few other nations players in those teams me think. Quite important ones too

fa0019 wrote:When was that? Lions 71? Quite a few other nations players in those teams me think. Quite important ones too

Suspect this is the match in question: http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/local-news/llanelli-9-3-blacks---the-2022714

Richard wrote:

Munster beat Nz? Wow, I thought we would've heard more about it.

Ha, I presume you are being sarcastic? If not you definitely dont live in Ireland because Munster fans never shut up about it. There is also a long running musical in Ireland centered around this match. Its almost worse than England winning the WC!!

GunsGerms wrote:

Richard wrote:

Munster beat Nz? Wow, I thought we would've heard more about it.

Ha, I presume you are being sarcastic? If not you definitely dont live in Ireland because Munster fans never shut up about it. There is also a long running musical in Ireland centered around this match. Its almost worse than England winning the WC!!

Ha ha guns...good volte face there in terms of being the one to bring it up and then distance yourself from the comment....

GunsGerms wrote:

Richard wrote:

Munster beat Nz? Wow, I thought we would've heard more about it.

Ha, I presume you are being sarcastic? If not you definitely dont live in Ireland because Munster fans never shut up about it. There is also a long running musical in Ireland centered around this match. Its almost worse than England winning the WC!!

England won the WC? I thought we would've heard more about it!

Richard wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Richard wrote:

Munster beat Nz? Wow, I thought we would've heard more about it.

Ha, I presume you are being sarcastic? If not you definitely dont live in Ireland because Munster fans never shut up about it. There is also a long running musical in Ireland centered around this match. Its almost worse than England winning the WC!!

England won the WC? I thought we would've heard more about it!

Apparently the referee was Wayne Barnes in disguise

lostinwales wrote:

Richard wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Richard wrote:

Munster beat Nz? Wow, I thought we would've heard more about it.

Ha, I presume you are being sarcastic? If not you definitely dont live in Ireland because Munster fans never shut up about it. There is also a long running musical in Ireland centered around this match. Its almost worse than England winning the WC!!

England won the WC? I thought we would've heard more about it!

Apparently the referee was Wayne Barnes in disguise

what? is he colour-blind as well?