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How much rest did SANZAR player get?

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Mr Fishpaste
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How much rest did SANZAR player get? Empty How much rest did SANZAR player get?

Post by red_stag Fri 05 Oct 2012, 11:25 am

A rugby world cup year is always draining especially for the Southern Hemisphere teams. The tournament takes place essentially in the offseason.

Many of the players have gone from the 2010 End of Year Tests to the 2011 Super Rugby tournament to the 2011 Tri Nations Championship to the Rugby World Cup to the 2012 Super Rugby to the 2012 Mid Season Test Matches and now into the 2012 Rugby Championship which also means flying over to Buenos Aires.

I dont see a single dedicated rest period in there for the top class international Sanzar players.

Player Welfare is big issue nowadays and we are seeing a lot of Aussies dropping like flies. Is there any correlation here? Should the Southern Hemisphere have had a break period.
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Post by Biltong Fri 05 Oct 2012, 12:20 pm

Not much rest at all stag, there was an article on super sport about how the NZ franchises work with the national coach to manage the NZ players, something that isn't happening in SA and OZ.

Between SA and OZ they have used 40 and 38 different players respectively each this season so far, granted Meyer was experimenting a lot with his forwards to find replacements in the pack from 4-8, so it isn't all due to injuries.

OZ of course after last weekend is a different story.
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Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Fri 05 Oct 2012, 12:23 pm

After the RWC many of the All Blacks' players were rested from the opening weeks of Super Rugby.

That meant that they got a break from October through to Feb/March - more than they normally manage.

It's worth noting that the Wallabies played Wales in Nov or Dec (I can't remember which), and they didn't rest as many players at the start of Super Rugby. And they played 4 matches in the June international window vs 3 for NZ and SA. So hardly surprising that they've had the worst of the injuries
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Post by kiakahaaotearoa Fri 05 Oct 2012, 1:41 pm

Nonu went to Japan and didn't get any respite. Hence being rested for Ireland and SBW allowed to leave AB rugby thinking why he had made the decision.

Another factor for Australia and OZ is that there is a wider gap between the top Super teams and the bottom ones. JOC and Pocock for example played for teams that needed them to front and too much was expected of them. When you're struggling to fill 5 teams with quality players, your frontline players suffer trying to remain competitive. The Blues probably had the worst amount of injuries for NZ in that regard.

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Post by red_stag Fri 05 Oct 2012, 1:50 pm

It seems really stupid from the Aussies though?

Might sound harsh but thats why I wrote the article seems bizarre how they have managed things.
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Post by kiakahaaotearoa Fri 05 Oct 2012, 2:00 pm

Hindsight is an annoying thing.

When Reds were Super champions and the Wallabies were 3N champions, there was talk of the amazing depth of Australian rugby and a golden age ahead.

Then Ireland came along and put them in the path of NZ, their Super teams didn't deserve to have a team in the finals and they've been scraping by in the RC this year. Stupid is too harsh. But only if they change their previously misguided optimism and look at the state of the game from the top down in Australia and make serious changes.

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Post by boomeranga Fri 05 Oct 2012, 2:01 pm

We need the money Stag. NZ have depth, but it seems half their provincial unions are going broke under the debt. Depth bought, but not paid for. Just different approaches to the same challenge of not having enough money.

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Post by Pot Hale Fri 05 Oct 2012, 10:17 pm

Australia need to follow Ireland's lead.

Drop two of their Super teams in status. Shunt their top players into the Tahs, Brumbies and Reds - the three more traditional teams. Increase squad sizes in these and get them competing and winning in the business end of the S15. Force and Rebels become development teams for the ARU. If necessary, drop one of them out of the S15 and give the place to the Kings/Lions.

O'Neill pushed heavily for Super expansion - he is now reaping what he's sown for the national union as he shags off to higher IRB pastures.....
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Post by Taylorman Fri 05 Oct 2012, 10:39 pm

Thing with Oz is they incredibly managed to avoid injuries during the 3N and played their top sides every match where NZ and particularly SA played with the WCup in mind. That started the Oz downfall in injuries- starting with the WCup, through to the sxv where they played Beale and JOC type players in the lower sides allowing bad luck and an overexposure to the lack of depth that made them play their top side in the 3N in the first place.

They havnt looked like recovering since and its almost looking to get significantly worse...

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Post by emack2 Fri 05 Oct 2012, 10:56 pm

Red Stag,Super 15 final was exactly 2weeks from RWC kick off which is frankly ridiculous.The Super15 has been expanded by the bean counters but in truth only 11 sides have a realistic chance of winning it.The rest are there to make up the numbers.Nonu went to Japan for cash and sat out the early part of the season.SBW is there now and apparently not finding it easy going.NZ `s RWC squad many sat out early rounds of Super15.Good news for the young hopefulsbut not so for there teams who may have been beaten.Mc Caw will sit out first 10 rounds of Super Rugby and the France matches.But presumeably play latter stages and 4Ns it would be naive to expect him to have been superceded by then at 7 for Nz.


Last edited by emack2 on Fri 05 Oct 2012, 11:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Morgannwg Fri 05 Oct 2012, 10:59 pm

And poor old Deans gets the blame for the ARU balls-up.
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Post by blackcanelion Sat 06 Oct 2012, 1:41 am

I think the demands are different. The super 15 is hard when you afre an international or have a young family. For instance my sons team was stripped of players when the super 15 season finished and dads moved to the provinces. During the season you never see some of the dads. They are away on test duty, super 15 and ITM cup tours. The constant absences and travelling have an impact outside of rugby when you have a young family. If you are based in the UK/Ireland or France the travelling isn't as big an issue. Your family and kids can be based in one spot and you see more of them.

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Post by Mr Fishpaste Sat 06 Oct 2012, 8:05 am

They play far too much rugby. In SA the players start with S15 warm up games at the end of Jan and play S15, June tests, Currie Cup, RC, NH tour and then have abreak of about a month over Christmas.

For me, the S15 is too long. For the sake of Rugby, and of the players, it needs to me pruned (but that'll not happen willingly: too much $ involved!)

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Post by aucklandlaurie Sat 06 Oct 2012, 8:17 am


Staggy, one thing that I dont think has been mentioned, is that although some of youre Heineken cup players can play a lot of games in a season, however you do have bigger squads, and this gives youre coachs far better opportunity to manage the players, We down here dont seem to be able to comprehend this point.

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Post by emack2 Sat 06 Oct 2012, 8:34 am

Isn`t it true that rules in Sanzar limit squad sizes did`nt NZ have to travel and train for the final 3Ns match in 2011.28 players seem fine for a squad but 32 with 2 complete teams plus an extra SH/Hooker was the norm whilst touring.Sanzar are going with the status quo for Props next year think NH sides are going with 4.That also this is going to be the test norm too.

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Post by anotherworldofpain Sat 06 Oct 2012, 2:40 pm

I agree with red_stag! If the SANZARG teams lose to any NH team in the AIs will just be because they are tired from the long season and we can't read anything into it.

On the other hand, if the NH teams don't win then they are even worse than we thought. Whistle

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Post by nganboy Sat 06 Oct 2012, 6:34 pm

Aus have played a few extra games the last few years for the $. In fact we all have but they seemed to play even more.
This has been talked about a lot but, for the broken record, 4 teams for Aus was probably too many. No question about 5.
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Post by boomeranga Sat 06 Oct 2012, 11:35 pm

2010 was the last year Australia had 4 teams and that year finished with 3 Australian teams in the top 6 and just one from NZ. Maybe we should have put our Muppet hats on then and complained endlessly about what a weak country NZ is. Missed our chance as the cycle turned.

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Post by Biltong Mon 08 Oct 2012, 8:42 am

Here is a prime example of how the NZ system is better than the SA one.

Courtesy of Supersport.

The Boks play the first match of the November tour in just under five weeks when they face Ireland in Dublin before proceeding to Edinburgh and London. As Meyer says, it is looming as a crucial tour for the Boks as this is the big opportunity for the team to start developing in preparation for next year’s Rugby Championship.

However, South African rugby has long shown a propensity for shooting itself in the foot, and it appears one of the biggest lessons of the All Black dominance of the southern hemisphere competition has yet to be internalised by the decision makers.

While Meyer wants to let the newcomers gain experience and the combinations to grow on the tour, he has no guarantee that those players will be available when the tour departure arrives.

It was understood until last week that the 30 players who served under Meyer during the home leg of the Championship would be ruled out of the remaining phase of the Currie Cup, but there appears to have been an about-turn, with the provinces being allowed to call up their Boks for the domestic competition.

It appears the provinces have enforced their right to field the players that they employ, and it is the fault of the South African system rather than the individual unions that it should be allowed to happen.

NO CENTRAL CONTRACTS

Unlike New Zealand, the players are not centrally contracted in South Africa, and that means the national body has no hold over them outside of during the international season.

A succession of Springbok coaches have looked enviously at the New Zealand system, a system which All Black coach Steve Hansen last week described as one of the biggest factors in his team getting through the Championship with hardly any injuries.

While the Wallabies, Springboks and to a lesser extent Argentina were decimated by injury, the All Blacks were pretty close to full muster for most of the competition.

According to Hansen this was because franchise coaches worked closely with the All Black management during the Super Rugby season in ensuring that the top players were not overplayed.

Meyer understandably cannot talk out against his bosses, but you could get a sense of his frustration when he commented on the issue at the post-match press conference in Nasrec.

“You have to admire the way New Zealand manage their players. The All Blacks play the same team in almost every test match. The guys from all over the world put their bodies on the line, but the way they have looked after players like Richie McCaw and Dan Carter is a big part of their success. They manage their players very well.”

Meyer said he had spoken to the New Zealand management and compared notes, and he gave the sense that he envied what the All Black coaches were being allowed to do.

It is understood that fringe players who have not played much will be released to play ITM Cup rugby now that the Championship is over (the All Blacks do have one remaining Bledisloe Cup test to look forward to on 20 October), but all the top players will be kept away from their provinces.

COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE TO THE NATIONAL INTEREST

That is the way it should be in South Africa, with players like Patrick Lambie, Tiaan Liebenberg and the other reserves probably needing some game time to ensure match sharpness after spending so much time on the bench.

But throwing the top players who have played all the Championship tests into the Currie Cup makes no sense and is surely counter-productive to the national interest with the end of year tour so near at hand.

It’s perhaps understandable after a sub-standard Currie Cup season that sponsors and administrators want to breathe some life into a flagging competition, but those stake-holders are just going to have to accept that the expanded Super Rugby season has turned what was once a galloping horse into a limping donkey. And injecting a full-strength element into the last week in 10 of a league season that has been played under-strength is not going to change that.

It may be important to the unions but it seems to undermine any drive for national good and if Meyer is forced by injury to leave his preferred players behind when the Boks leave for tour we may have to listen to him next year repeating his lament after Saturday’s game that certain team failings, like the defence, were down to inexperience.

There are some who justifiably think that excuse is disingenuous – a player selected to play international rugby should be good enough and experienced enough to compete – but it is nonetheless a fact that the All Black team that has swept all before it this year out-ranks the others in experience and it does take time for newcomers to settle at a new level.

And it is in games like the Boks will play overseas that new flyhalves Johan Goosen and Elton Jantjies should be growing into their status as international players.
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Post by Taylorman Mon 08 Oct 2012, 8:52 am

Its the old club vs country argument. Many say they are serious about the progress of their International side. NZ are probably the only ones who really mean it.

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Post by red_stag Tue 09 Oct 2012, 2:13 pm

Taylorman wrote:Its the old club vs country argument. Many say they are serious about the progress of their International side. NZ are probably the only ones who really mean it.

+1
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Post by Brendan Tue 09 Oct 2012, 4:14 pm

Surely Ireland and to a less extent Scotland can be added to that.

The one worry I have for NZ is the financail state of the regions. How long will it be before NZ has to start playing more games with top players to raise money like Aus has had to do.

Money will always decieded these things. Wales have palyed more games as they look to pay off their debt quicker.

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Post by red_stag Tue 09 Oct 2012, 4:44 pm

Brendan wrote:Surely Ireland can be added to that.

I think Ireland pay lip service to prioritising the national team but provincial loyalty seems to rule supreme at times.
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