Munster v Scarlets and this weekends pro12 refereeing

First topic message reminder :

Snigger. what a joke league:


Referee: Claudio Blessano (FIR)
Assistant Referees: Gary Conway, Dermot Blake (both IRFU)
Citing Commissioner: Peter Ferguson (IRFU)
TMO: Seamus Flannery (IRFU)
World Domination: (IRFU)

Maybe she can play for Ireland, they need a replacement at 13 #onemanteam.

Doubt it mate...she's six feet under about two months now....cheers

James Cronin has definitely overtaken Kilcoyne.

Don Alfonso will be disappointed...Billy Holland had a very good game and Williams actually sped things up when he came on...

Well I watched this match as a neutral. I'll be honest the ref was shambolic. Second half in particular. To be honest if we really want to see the league kick on we have to stop poor referees from officiating games. I'm not bothered what nationality a ref is either. But refs should be held accountable and on the back of this performance this referee should be suspended for a few matches.

I think we all agree referees make mistakes but when someone is consistently making mistakes the aim should be to educate those refs to start making better calls. Without sanctions there just isn't any incentives for these referees to improve. The Pro 12 shouldn't be a training ground for referees anyway - not if we actually want the league to be taken seriously.

Still think Munster deserved the game but I don't think there was much in it. From a Dragons perspective its a bonus that Scarlets didn't get anything from the game but on reflection you have to feel for the team because they really were on the end of some dire calls. The penalty given for Barclay unbinding from the scrum was particularly a bad call as even the video replays showed Barclays hadn't detached. It even had the commentators questioning the refs call by the end of the game.

That said Munster did well to react to the referee but in the end I think every fan just wants to see consistent interpretations of the rules applied.

I'll see you tonight's performance and raise you Gary Conway a complete joke of a ref.

LOL - Its just a shame we cant replicate Nigel Owen 6 times because I doubt anyone would have any real objections if he refereed every game. He's by far the most consistent ref on the circuit and has totally empathy for the game. In my book he's the best referee in the game by a long distance too.

What I don't understand is why does he not take the lead for the Pro12 refs and do all their assessments and training?

justified sinner wrote:I'll see you tonight's performance and raise you Gary Conway a complete joke of a ref.

Is he still about?

Told you guys that Blessano is the worst ref in the league, he got demoted to the french pro D2 last year after Connacht complained about one of his performance.

Well I cant see Scarlets just letting that one lie to be honest, and in fairness they probably would be right to complain. It really was that bad. If that had been the Dragons I would have been peed.

Again I'd like to point out I'm not one for going on about refs as I appreciate they have the hardest job and will make mistakes. But I'd also like to point out people livelihood's at stake as well so it's only fair to expect a good standard of officiating. This isn't a training ground league for refs after all.

Think I would rather have that crazy new Zealander who feel out of favour over there - forgotten his name.

I think the ref was a tad poor but then I wonder to what extent I'm basing that (subconsciously) on the broken English he is speaking. I thought he made two calls that were outrageously poor. One was O'Donnell taking out the Scarlets 9 (I don't think this led to any points though) and after the 2nd scrum when lee came on I thought Munster were lucky not to conceed a very kick able penalty at that scrum. All in all I would have said a 4-1 point split would have been fair so I don't really see the ref as being really bad.

It's a difficult situation but we need to make sure we raise the standard

He was terrible. Disregarded the clear penalty try for Munster at the end.

Best ref or at least top 6 in the league were in top 14 this weekend so we are left with the worst and Conway the Irish debutant as well as Blessano aren't at the required level.

First half he was not so bad. A few weird calls, but wouldn't have said any worse than any of the less able refs we often see. Second half he reverted to form and was b!oody awful.

ME-109 wrote:he's as dirty a player as jpr anyhow

Stop talking bollox ...

Of course you're right. Jpr was as pure and clean as a fresh fall of snow

Let me qualify that. Williams is not a tap on Jpr as a player. But he does display other characteristics similar to JPr.

You can't associate JPR's hard style of play which was totally legal in the game then, with today's rulings and hence say he was dirty. He was a hard player yes, but so was most. Using your reasoning, if JPR was a dirty player then the whole Irish team of the same era were nothing more than cheating feckers...

JPR was hard yes, dirty no...

Liam Williams is silly at times, inexperienced yes, dirty no...

Oh and before I get slated for my comment about the Irish team above. Read it again in context. I was only stating to make a comparison, not inferring it was true.

ME-109 wrote:James Cronin has definitely overtaken Kilcoyne.

Bit of daylight between them now. Cronin has stepped up a gear again this season.

No9 wrote:Always said he reminds me of JPR, although with this seasons hair cut he doesn't resemble JPR that well anymore, but his play definitely does. Trouble is the shoulder charge was allowed when JPR played, Liam has to be very careful... Although not seen that silly play from him this season, so I hope he's learned his lesson after the Wal Bok game.

He is definitely a great full back...

You must have missed the Scarlets - Dragons match then, when he flew into the side of a ruck and put a shoulder into Ian Gough, after the whistle had gone too. George Clancy saw it but didn't take any action, maybe because that sort of thing's expected of him now.

He's such a naturally talented player but I'm finding it harder and harder to like him. He should stick to what he does best instead of trying to be some kind of 'enforcer'.

Gough is big enough, ugly and experienced enough to look after himself...

This game really boiled my pee, Munster were in no way what so ever better than the Scarlets on Friday night, they might have shaded it but that is it. What killed the game was the fact that the referee gave 4, yes 4, kickable penalty's in as many minutes straight away after the kick off, and what for ? Even Shane Byrne who was commentating on BBC Wales was confused, it's this type of reffing that is making a mockery out of our league, when you have a ref like that and he is going against you it just kills off any fight you had towards the opposition, you could see the Scarlets players shoulders just dropping every time the ref put his whistle in his mouth, he was only reffing ONE side on Friday night, perhaps the occasion of being at Thommond got to him, but we should not be using our league as a training ground for referee's, the Scarlets would be well within their rights to complain about how they were treated in this game, and that ref needs more time at a lower level before he steps foot into the Pro 12 again.

Thomond Park looks empty. When we have attendances like this in Wales we get slated... I have to say I'm surprised with so many empty spaces in the ground.

I thought there was a decent crowd there on Friday compared to the earlier rounds.

I'd say it wasn't far off the official 13,851 'official' attendance.

When is the last time you had an attendance like that in Wales?

The best so far this season is 10,821 for yesterday's big Welsh derby between the Ospreys and the Blues.

We had a derby game here last week and there were 43,817 at it.

MunsterMac wrote:

Thomond Park looks empty. When we have attendances like this in Wales we get slated... I have to say I'm surprised with so many empty spaces in the ground.

I thought there was a decent crowd there on Friday compared to the earlier rounds.

I'd say it wasn't far off the official 13,851 'official' attendance.

When is the last time you had an attendance like that in Wales?

The best so far this season is 10,821 for yesterday's big Welsh derby between the Ospreys and the Blues.

We had a derby game here last week and there were 43,817 at it.

Where did you get that figure from ? the stadium announcer said it was over 15,000 and looking at the stadium that would have been about right, only the seasts behind the goals were empty.

10,821 is the ofiical head count on the official Pro12 site Lord.

Don't worry, I'll show up next time and count them myself to get the Very Official count on it.

SecretFly wrote:10,821 is the ofiical head count on the official Pro12 site Lord.

Don't worry, I'll show up next time and count them myself to get the Very Official count on it.

These figures must be very skewed, the announcer at the stadium was saying it was over 15,000, unless I was hearing it wrong, it also seemed like much more than 10,000, both sides of the stadium and all the corners were full, onlt behind the posts were empty.

10,821 is the attendance given on the Osprey's official website as well.

MunsterMac wrote:10,821 is the attendance given on the Osprey's official website as well.

Thats probably where the Pro12 website got it from, would that figure include late commers, and walk up people ?

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:10,821 is the ofiical head count on the official Pro12 site Lord.

Don't worry, I'll show up next time and count them myself to get the Very Official count on it.

These figures must be very skewed, the announcer at the stadium was saying it was over 15,000, unless I was hearing it wrong, it also seemed like much more than 10,000, both sides of the stadium and all the corners were full, onlt behind the posts were empty.

That's obviously where the other 5,000ish were then........................ in spirit

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:10,821 is the ofiical head count on the official Pro12 site Lord.

Don't worry, I'll show up next time and count them myself to get the Very Official count on it.

These figures must be very skewed, the announcer at the stadium was saying it was over 15,000, unless I was hearing it wrong, it also seemed like much more than 10,000, both sides of the stadium and all the corners were full, onlt behind the posts were empty.

That's obviously where the other 5,000ish were then........................ in spirit

Look, the Liberty Stadium has inly got a capacity of 20,000, and if you look at the highlights, that stadium was more than half full, you cannot fit 5,000 people behind each goal, both the sides were full and going into the corners, unless you can cram 5,000 people into the seats behind each goal then something must be off.

Lord..Lord.... I'm only having some fun.  Don't always take what I say so seriously.

I don't know how many turned up at the Liberty - don't really care either, as I don't value success on attendance numbers - and I also fully well know that 'official' anything can always be questioned - including attendance figures.

But please... just let the fun roll now and again.

SecretFly wrote:Lord..Lord.... I'm only having some fun.  Don't always take what I say so seriously.

I don't know how many turned up at the Liberty - don't really care either, as I don't value success on attendance numbers - and I also fully well know that 'official' anything can always be questioned - including attendance figures.

But please... just let the fun roll now and again.

I know you were only playing, sorry, perhaps I should try and type how I feel rather than what I mean, as words typed can have a totaly diffrerent meaning when spoken, anyway, I could be wrong, I just find it hard to beleive that the stadium was only half full, I tend to beleive my eyes when looking through them, rather than what some website is telling me.

Yesterdays ref was probably the worst I've ever seen, not as whistle happy as other refs but some of the decisions made were awful.

"He couldn't kick the ball because he was tackled"

Are we not allowed to tackle players who want to kick the ball now?

Not if you're a Scarlets player - no.  

Special section in the Rugby Players Rule Book for Scarlet players, Mike.  Get yourself an education.

With a decent referee, last Friday nights game would have been a lot different.

LordDowlais wrote:With a decent referee, last Friday nights game would have been a lot different.

I'm not too sure about that to be honest. There would have been a losing bonus point most likely, but Munster would have picked up the 4pts still.

However I still feel rather miffed, that in the first half the ref appeared poor, but both ways. Then he spend ten mins in the company of two Irish linesmen and came out in the second half with only one arm. The TMO impressed me though as he was called upon three times, and every time appeared to get the call right, I was expecting the knock-on that Copeland grounded to have been given (even though it wasn't a try IMO).

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:With a decent referee, last Friday nights game would have been a lot different.

I'm not too sure about that to be honest.  There would have been a losing bonus point most likely, but Munster would have picked up the 4pts still.

However I still feel rather miffed, that in the first half the ref appeared poor, but both ways.  Then he spend ten mins in the company of two Irish linesmen and came out in the second half with only one arm.  The TMO impressed me though as he was called upon three times, and every time appeared to get the call right, I was expecting the knock-on that Copeland grounded to have been given (even though it wasn't a try IMO).

Within 4 minutes of the second half kicking off, he awarded Munster 4 kickable pens, that put the game out of reach for the Scarlets after a very closely encountered first half, that is one penalty per minute, all questionable, even the commentators were left lost for words, you could see the fight just ebb out of the Scarlets players after it, it looked as though the ref had made his mind up at half time who he wanted to win the match and took the wind straight out of the Scarlets sails, for me this is just plain and simple not good enough, the league as a whole needs better, and I for one am fed up of our league being made to look second rate, by second rate referee's.

You wouldnt think Scarlets losing was anything to do with them never looking like breaking the Munster defence (except for the odd Munster error) or ever look like they were going to score a try?

ME-109 wrote:You wouldnt think Scarlets losing was anything to do with them never looking like breaking the Munster defence (except for the odd Munster error) or ever look like they were going to score a try?

Are you sure about that ?

ME-109 wrote:You wouldnt think Scarlets losing was anything to do with them never looking like breaking the Munster defence (except for the odd Munster error) or ever look like they were going to score a try?

Their number 8, Rory, always looked like he was going to score a try everytime he got the ball!

Or did I read my notes incorrectlly.  Yeah, thought so.  It actually reads: Their number 8 always wanted to score a try everytime he got the ball.  

He needs a little more camera up mode.

LordDowlais wrote:

ME-109 wrote:You wouldnt think Scarlets losing was anything to do with them never looking like breaking the Munster defence (except for the odd Munster error) or ever look like they were going to score a try?

Are you sure about that ?

Sure enough...look I dont think the ref was great for both sides but in the first half he was blowing up Munster for everything. Swings and roundabouts to be honest. Plus he didnt blow for the obvious penalty try with the scrum at the end. On the next scrum he was about to penalise the scarlets again but changed his mind. Both sets of supporters can have complaints.

ME-109 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

ME-109 wrote:You wouldnt think Scarlets losing was anything to do with them never looking like breaking the Munster defence (except for the odd Munster error) or ever look like they were going to score a try?

Are you sure about that ?

Sure enough...look I dont think the ref was great for both sides but in the first half he was blowing up Munster for everything. Swings and roundabouts to be honest. Plus he didnt blow for the obvious penalty try with the scrum at the end. On the next scrum he was about to penalise the scarlets again but changed his mind. Both sets of supporters can have complaints.

So what happened with the elbow to Priestland, and the punch up in the scrum directly afterwards? I can remember him going 'against Munster' on those ones.

Also just of the top of my head, didn't the Scarlets threaten the Munster line, from within their own 22m, when Tagi made that cut up the middle? If Kris Phillips had caught the ball when we pulled the training park move at an early line he would have been in for sure. I am not complaining, these were our errors, however they were times we did threaten Munsters line, and not because Munster messed up.

ME-109 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

ME-109 wrote:You wouldnt think Scarlets losing was anything to do with them never looking like breaking the Munster defence (except for the odd Munster error) or ever look like they were going to score a try?

Are you sure about that ?

Sure enough...look I dont think the ref was great for both sides but in the first half he was blowing up Munster for everything. Swings and roundabouts to be honest. Plus he didnt blow for the obvious penalty try with the scrum at the end. On the next scrum he was about to penalise the scarlets again but changed his mind. Both sets of supporters can have complaints.

Well I saw the Scarlets getting over the gain line on a number of occasions, they could have even scored from their own 22 right at the end, but, if you are sure enough, then every time it must have been down to mistakes by Munster.

LordDowlais wrote:

Well I saw the Scarlets getting over the gain line on a number of occasions, they could have even scored from their own 22 right at the end, but, if you are sure enough, then every time it must have been down to mistakes by Munster.

What stopped them? A transgression of the rules or a homer ref?

LordDowlais wrote:Within 4 minutes of the second half kicking off, he awarded Munster 4 kickable pens, that put the game out of reach for the Scarlets after a very closely encountered first half, that is one penalty per minute, all questionable,

Firstly the 4 penalties were awarded to Munster were in the 2nd, 6th, 7th and 8th minutes and not all in the first 4 minutes of the 2nd half.

Secondly only 3 were kickable. The 2nd one was deep in Munster's half which Zebo kicked to touch.

(I only mention the above as it calls into question your recollection of the game).

And thirdly While I was scratching my head on the third penalty which was given for side entry against no 5 there was no question about the other 3.

The first one was given against the loosehead for not binding in the scrum and you could clearly see his arm waving around so he can have no complaints there.

The 2nd was given against the out half for not releasing the ball and again you could clearly see POM, on his feet with his hands on the ball with the 10 holding on.

And the 4th was given for the fullback continuing to handle the ball in the ruck and not releasing even after being clearly told to do so by the referee.

MunsterMac wrote:The first one was given against the loosehead for not binding in the scrum and you could clearly see his arm waving around so he can have no complaints there.

No it was given against Jon Barclay, the openside for breaking his bind early. He was repositioning to give Pitman more cover on the break, but was still technically bound.

MunsterMac wrote:And the 4th was given for the fullback continuing to handle the ball in the ruck and not releasing even after being clearly told to do so by the referee.

Or the other way of looking at it was that the fullback was on his feet, and playing for the ball totally legally, much like the Munster backrow few plays earlier, but got penalised for it.

These two were getting argued on the commentary by both Byrne and Roberts, as neither of them could understand what was going on.

Or the other way of looking at it was that the fullback was on his feet, and playing for the ball totally legally, much like the Munster backrow few plays earlier, but got penalised for it.

I go to as many matches as I can, watch all the Pro12 matches or highlights, the Aviva highlights and the Top 14 highlights every week and this is something that comes up over and over again.

There are many, many times when a player feels he is perfectly entitled to do something but if the referee gives you a direct warning and you ignore it you can't complain when you are penalised.

It drives me demented when the same thing happens with my teams' players.

If you're told to release you must release.

No it was given against Jon Barclay, the openside for breaking his bind early. He was repositioning to give Pitman more cover on the break, but was still technically bound.

No I'm sorry but you are incorrect there. I was at the match and watched the highlights and it was clear that Phil Johns was the one penalised.

If you look at the video the ref even points directly to him and tells him why he pinged him.

MunsterMac wrote:

No it was given against Jon Barclay, the openside for breaking his bind early. He was repositioning to give Pitman more cover on the break, but was still technically bound.

No I'm sorry but you are incorrect there. I was at the match and watched the highlights and it was clear that Phil Johns was the one penalised.

If you look at the video the ref even points directly to him and tells him why he pinged him.

Your wrong mate, I suggest you watch it again, he was punishing JB.

We'll just agree to disagree.