England Fly Halves

England are set to select three fly halves for the November series, with the daily mail claiming that Farrell, Ford and Myler are Lancaster's preferred trio, with Cipriani and Burns in the saxons. Usually I take anything the daily mail says with a pinch of salt, but other sources seem to back this up as well.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2791497/danny-cipriani-left-england-squad-four-match-autumn-test-series.html

Farrell was always going to be first choice, a dead cert. Ford has been arguably the form fly half so far this season with his goal kicking vastly improved, his kicking game to the fore and his ability to break the line and put players through holes with his deft passing key to his eye catching performances.

Who would you like to see as England's third choice fly half? The maverick Cipriani, the reliable Myler? or the inconsistent Burns?

I dont think Cipriani is the best long term option, but with Farrell yet to show much if any form with the injury he has been carrying I would be very tempted to start with him

Ill eat my hat...as i was very sceptical that he could achieve it...but i think Cipriani has become a very good controlled player.

He is dictating games...but still has the ability to make things happen and take a risk which is what you want from your 10's.

I think he must be in the squad.
Farrell, Ford, Cipriani

Which is probably harsh on Myler who is the 10 for last years champions and current leaders....

I said earlier on here that I thought Myler was likely ahead of Burns now in the fly half stakes.

Burns has slipped back a little from his summer tour form, while Myler has looked in good control for Saints.

If Farrell was completely fit, Lancaster might be tempted to have Cipriani ahead of Myler. While there remain a few doubts about how well the Saracens man has recovered, I think the temptation is to make sure Myler is around the squad.

With Ford having the occasional off day with his kicking, Myler might be regarded as more consistent on that score - I'd be interested to see how the success rate for all fly half candidates looks so far this season.

Again, it's worth restating that if we don't start Twelvetrees or Goode, then any fly half having an off day with his kicks will have to be subbed if we want to let someone else have a go. I'm sure the fact Burns hasn't been kicking for Leicester all the time will be a factor in his selection chances.

1. Ford
2. Farrell
3. Cipriani

That would be my pecking order, with Burns next in line after that. Myler is a good club man, but I don't see him as an international fly half. A bit like Andy Goode back in his heyday.

Cipriani - he can turn a game and offer something different. You can't have too many of the same, and I would put Farrell and Myler's games as too similar.

Given that Farrell is out injured and will at most have had two games before playing the All Blacks, if this is the case, which it patently is, then surely this proves beyond doubt what a bottom hole of a selector bomber is.

So its an out of form Farrell, Ford and not international standard Myler. I really do dispair watching stewie ducking players over.

Just stick with Ford. I think he's awesome personally, and I'd chew my arm off for him to be Scottish.

If Farrell is out put Cipriani on the bench. A genuine game changer to come off the bench.

Jeez, you guys don't know how good you have it. Try watching Duncan Weir consistently hoofing the ball to the opposition back three or squandering the only overlap of the game your side has managed to create!

KingE

I do agree this is one area Lancaster does wobble at times....I like consistency...and he does that, but in cases like Farrell when he is blatantly not fit or in form (how can he be he's not playing) then he should not be selected.

are people really suggesting Farrell should be dropped from the EPS entirely? It's not that long ago (last 6N, so about 6 months) when he was pushing Sexton for the accolade of best FH in the NH. Since then he's had a few injury issues, played one Test in NZ where he did OK but not great (and wasn't fit). When fit still England's best FH IMO...

Myler would be a slightly disappointing call though, I like the guy, but he's a great club servant, not an international fly-half. Burns and Cipriani both better options IMO. I would plump for Burns, I know his form for Leicester hasn't been great, but it's been better than his form for Gloucester last year, and he stepped up with no issues vs NZ. I think he has that extra something that allows him to make the step to international level. Cipriani would still be a good choice though.

No people are not suggesting that...we are merely saying he should not be in the immediate squad.

The Saxons and Senior squad are all one...that can just be promoted and relegated from. Pop Farrell down to the Saxons for the moment...who have no games anyway..bring up the form 10's. Thus Farrell stays in the squad but is not on the front line when he's not fit or in form.

Give the lad time to recover....

Mad for Chelsea wrote:are people really suggesting Farrell should be dropped from the EPS entirely? It's not that long ago (last 6N, so about 6 months) when he was pushing Sexton for the accolade of best FH in the NH. Since then he's had a few injury issues, played one Test in NZ where he did OK but not great (and wasn't fit). When fit still England's best FH IMO...

Myler would be a slightly disappointing call though, I like the guy, but he's a great club servant, not an international fly-half. Burns and Cipriani both better options IMO. I would plump for Burns, I know his form for Leicester hasn't been great, but it's been better than his form for Gloucester last year, and he stepped up with no issues vs NZ. I think he has that extra something that allows him to make the step to international level. Cipriani would still be a good choice though.

I think what we're all worried about is that he's been played into the ground over the last couple of seasons and his body is showing the wear and tear from that. We now have multiple quality options to cover for him so it would be very short sighted for Lancaster to risk rushing Farrell back for the AI's, I'd like Farrell to just play club rugby until the 6Ns and then we go from there.

OK that sounds reasonable. I misunderstood and though people were calling for him to be left out completely. I actually think we need to give Ford a few starts before the WC, so the AIs could be a great place to start.

We don't know what Myler can do at international level unless we try him.

Yappysnap I agree about Farrell Jr. He needs a break from England. Mentally and physically he's not up to speed at the moment. No point rushing him back before he's ready.

Also allows the other 10 contenders opportunities.

I don't think coaches are expected to make the EPS selection based on injury availability (unless it's a long term issue). The idea is to select your squad and then, if first choice players are unavailable, bring in others. One of the key points behind the EPS is that there is some flexibility to add or promote players because of injuries.

I have no problem with Farrell being in the EPS - it would be bizarre if he wasn't. The question is whether he will start against New Zealand. I'd rather he didn't but he'll be on the pitch for Saracens, so we can see how he goes.

Rugby fan I agree. Farrell probably shouldn't be rushed back but does that mean Ford starts?

It could messy against the NZers if Ford doesn't front up. It's a bit unfair on him to be honest.

I feel that anyone thrown against the NZers is basically fodder at 10....

beshocked wrote:I feel that anyone thrown against the NZers is basically fodder at 10....

I'm not that pessimistic. If the rumours are true that Lancaster is intending to name Myler in the EPS, I think that might signal a plan to rest Farrell and play Ford, with Myler to back up in case of a Ford kicking implosion.

If, however, Farrell goes well on his return, then Lancaster might be tempted to play him. If he is the most likely candidate to take the 10 shirt at the World Cup, I think Lancaster would be reluctant to stand him down completely, and give him no extra experience against the big 3 SANZAR sides before the tournament.

I'm curious where people think Toby Flood would be in the fly half stakes if he'd stayed in England. He has been a big influence on the position. His presence at Leicester meant Ford decamped to Bath, where he has thrived. His decision to leave seemed to cause Burns to implode at Gloucester, and now his future depends on his form with Tigers.

I think if Flood had stayed, he'd be the third man in the EPS behind Farrell and Ford, with either Myler or Cipriani missing out on a Saxons place.

Rugby Fan wrote:

beshocked wrote:I feel that anyone thrown against the NZers is basically fodder at 10....

I'm not that pessimistic. If the rumours are true that Lancaster is intending to name Myler in the EPS, I think that might signal a plan to rest Farrell and play Ford, with Myler to back up in case of a Ford kicking implosion.

If, however, Farrell goes well on his return, then Lancaster might be tempted to play him. If he is the most likely candidate to take the 10 shirt at the World Cup, I think Lancaster would be reluctant to stand him down completely, and give him no extra experience against the big 3 SANZAR sides before the tournament.

I'm curious where people think Toby Flood would be in the fly half stakes if he'd stayed in England. He has been a big influence on the position. His presence at Leicester meant Ford decamped to Bath, where he has thrived. His decision to leave seemed to cause Burns to implode at Gloucester, and now his future depends on his form with Tigers.

I think if Flood had stayed, he'd be the third man in the EPS behind Farrell and Ford, with either Myler or Cipriani missing out on a Saxons place.

I am not convinced. Flood at his best no question. I just think he didnt show enough form over the last couple of years to warrant keeping his place in the national set up, except maybe as a backup to Farrell until the new batch came through.

lostinwales wrote:...I am not convinced. Flood at his best no question. I just think he didnt show enough form over the last couple of years to warrant keeping his place in the national set up, except maybe as a backup to Farrell until the new batch came through.

Not sure he ought to be there, just think he would be, and filling the role that Lancaster may now see for Myler.

I can't understand why people keep stating that Myler is only "a good club player". How do we know? He has seen off two "promising" England contenders at Saints and without a problem. He runs a back line that scores more tries than just about any other in the AP and is so defensively sound that it leaks the least. His kicking ratio is up with the best.

He has no outstanding attributes, however he does everything well and he has no weaknesses to exploit. Farrell's weakness is getting a back line running, Ford's is defence, Cips, possibly defence and some times kicking, Burns just seems to be completely off the pace at the moment.

I actually would like to see Cips given a go against NZ, but only if Manu is fit to partner Burrell at 12. Cips ability to put players into gaps is better than any other EQ 10 and with the options of Manu, Burrell, Brown, Morgan or either of the wingers coming through from the back they would pose any side a lot of problems.

Ford and Myler can do this, but Cips is a master at it.

Personaly i think Lancaster will pick Cipriani as third choice. Although i do think that Steven Miller should atleast be in the England set up.

With regards to Freddie burns, he needs to get back in to form, the same form he was 2 years ago.

Is  Owen Farrel truly first choice due to his injuries? Is their any body else putting their name forward.

Does any think that Charlie Hogson might get a recall for the autum international?

Myler will be lucky to be ahead of Farrell Ford and Cips I feel while Hodgson retired about 2 years ago.

Who's Myler seen off? Geraghty and Lamb? They saw themselves off while he came out on top by being the most steadily average instead of hit and miss great and Poopie

yappysnap wrote:Who's Myler seen off? Geraghty and Lamb? They saw themselves off while he came out on top by being the most steadily average instead of hit and miss great and Poopie

When they were brought into Saints set up they were in or around the England squad. Geraghty is once again being talked about although as a utility back that can cover 10/12. Lamb is on his way to the Championship.

A lot of sides under estimate how effective Myler is, he has an all round game not possessed by any of the other England contenders. He lacks the flash and splash of some of the others, but it doesn't reduce his effectiveness. I have rarely seen him outplayed even when Saints are on the back foot although that is a rarity.