London Scottish in the Pro12 ?

First topic message reminder :

London Scottish say they are “open-minded” over a potential switch to the Pro 12, with chairman Sir David Reid saying much will depend on Championship funding and how the future governance of the league pans out.

With Scottish established as a top-half tier two side and plans to redevelop the Richmond Athletic Ground well advanced, the ambitious Exiles are plotting the next stage of their journey from near extinction in 1999.

Close links to the SRU mean talk of a Celtic League tie-up as a ‘third Scottish pro team’ is never far from the agenda north of the border.

Sir David told The Rugby Paper: “We’re in the RFU Championship at the moment and there are possibilities around how that joins up with professional rugby: does it join up with Premiership Rugby or does it stay independently managed by the RFU? We’re open-minded, not dictating things, but we’re a participant and a responsible stakeholder so we’ll need to look at our best options.

“A lot of people would need to approve a move into the Pro12 and we’d be happy to look at all that, but in the meantime we’ve got to keep doing what we have been doing, which is to strengthen the club year-on-year by moving incomes up, bringing in further support and improving our coaching, youth and academy programmes.”

Sir David has urged the RFU to come forward with solid funding plans.

He said: “Premiership clubs are getting between £2m and £3m each and the Championship are getting just £350,000, so we believe there’s a case to provide a lot more funding to second tier rugby to keep it healthy.

“Championship clubs are doing a great job and there are some excellent players and coaches at our level. We’re providing jobs for those people and the job we’re doing for elite rugby deserves more of the pot.

“We’re looking for double the money we currently get and that would help all the Championship clubs to become a vibrant professional tier working alongside the Premiership.”


http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/featured ... VWuYS.dpuf

Is this just stirring up the pot by LS ? Are they just saying this because of the funding issues ?

We dont own our own stadium

GeordieFalcon wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:I think there is a good case that the WRU and SRU could use their member London based Exciled clubs as feeders for their national teams.

A great way to get the clubs working better, more competitive with an actual identity that reflects their glorious history.

These were teams founded by expats of the two nations and we have seen how London Irish and now similarly London Welsh are rapidly losing their National identity.

THey're in the English Leagues so have to be seen to benefit England...regardless of their exiles status. They cant have a team full of Welsh ior Irish.

Interesting theres so many London exiles teams..

Ironic that we now have an England Polynesian Islands representing us....

I disagree that they should benefit England, beyond providing competitive opposition for other teams. Do you mean English rugby in general, or English international teams?

About 30% of AP and GKIPAC players are foreign and earn gainful employment and benefit from professional training, coaching, and varied playing experience both in England and Europe. I expect that a fair number of the remainder are uncapped dual-qualified with no intention of playing for England. I'd absolutely have no qualms in having a professional team (or teams) representing Tier 2 nations with no professional leagues playing in England. I might have a few qualms about Tier 1 exile teams - London NZ or London Irish becoming more Irish again - but they would mostly be about potential accusations of poaching from the relevant unions.

Equally, I would loathe a system in which a player's "club" contract is dependent on his being EQ or open to residential qualification.

The only compulsory limit on foreigners is the 2 non-kolpak players (which EPRC appear to have continued in Europe as well). The EQP limits are voluntary and earn the clubs a relatively small amount of dosh. There is a compulsion on all academicians to be EQ, but Irish could theoretically dump their RFU academy and set up their own.

I wouldn't like more than, say, 2 teams in AP going non-english - that still gives a massive pool of English players for Stuey and his successors to select from. If a London Wallabies or a Birmingham Kiwis team attracted some of the ex-pat population to plant their bums on seats, that would be good for Rugby in England. If a London Islanders team could be sustained, it could act as a focus for the Unions of Samoa, Tonga and Fiji - that too would be good for the wider world of Rugby.

Geordiefalcon I guess not. Technically neither do Saracens but both clubs have more control than the likes of Wasps,London Irish and London Scottish.

I guess it also depends on the area itself and what can be done etc.

Ah yes i agree...up here its actually Northumbria Uiversity that owns ours.

Nice idea but the cardiff blues will get it in the neck from Ponty fans claiming that we had something to do with the SRU taking on London Scottish with a view to devaluing the British & Irish Cup at Ponty's expense.

Or something.

quinsforever wrote:Clubs can only be affiliated with 1 Union, and that has to be the Union of the competition they are competing in (they also need the approval of the country they are based in to compete in a cross border competition). And LS would still have to hit the 65% English player rule to qualify for the RFU money

Wrong.

London Scottish, as one of the oldest clubs in world rugby, has always been a member club of both the RFU and SRU. This is not conjecture, it's fact.
This predates the forming of the IRB and has never been challenged - even when LS were last in the Premiership (98-99).

Therefore the only permission they would need would be from the SRU. I have no doubt that, should this ever arise, they would do the polite thing and inform the RFU in advance of any statement and clear it with the IRB.

As a former LS player and lifelong fan I have heard every possible idea tabled, from fans and owners, but where you are mistaken Quins is in thinking this is some sort of serious plan. You talk of threats and blackmail yet Sir David is clearly only responding to a question from a reporter. There is no plan that I have heard of relating to joining the PRO12. This is utter conjecture. There was back in 1999-2003 but the SRU couldn't afford to fund the teams it had, let alone LS.

Re-read what he said "we’d be happy to look at all that" and that he's "open-minded" about the concept. I'd personally be open-minded about moving to Brazil, doesn't mean I have any plans to do it.

What he actually does is spend the whole interview talking about the Championship, which is clearly his sole focus. The reporter clearly wanted to make more of a story so asked if they'd be interested in joining the PRO12. Of course they would be interested in the possibility of moving into a Premier League. Who wouldn't! Doesn't mean it'll happen or that they're planning for it. But of course you see evil Celtic plots everywhere and relish the chance to see them 'taken down a peg or two'.

I hope you're aware that, considering your stance during the Euro crisis, you sound like a total hypocrite. You were all for clubs gaining power over unions and doing as they please. You were all for the Welsh regions joining the Aviva if helped defeat the Celts. Yet now you talk of the importance of Union control and Union permission! I think it has nothing to do with the rules and everything to do with you being staunchly pro English, be they the clubs or the Union.

Personally I've always been a fan of the idea. The RFU have treated London Scottish with nothing but contempt sending us down to the bottom and the Premiership is a near impossible to get into and stay in, is propped up by sugar daddies and is a sure fire way to destroy the culture of your club (looks at the farcical situation with Wasps moving to the Midlands just to survive, London Irish playing in Reading and London Welsh in Oxford).

It would be a boon for fans. There are permanent redevelopment plans in place for the Athletic Ground, but until then it can be extended to 7,000 seats and 3,000 standing as in the past using nothing more than temporary stands. As there is no ludicrous minimum seating criteria in the PRO12 this wouldn't be a problem, just add temporary seating as and when there's the demand for it - which is exactly what Glasgow have done.

Back in 99 London Scottish's average attendance was just over 2000 people. Bear in mind that season the only team in double digits was Leicester (Sale, London Irish, Newcastle and Harlequins all got 5k or under) and it's clear that this number would be higher should they be back playing in a top league nowadays.

There are approximately 100,000 born Scots living in London and almost 750,000 2nd/3rd generation Scots in the capital. That's not to mention the huge Irish (by population London is Ireland's 2nd largest city) and Welsh (approximately 70,000) populations in London who would love to be able to watch their Provinces and Regions play in their back yard. Plus the traveling support would love a regular jaunt to London.

So if we say that within a season LS could be bringing in 4000-5000 fans per Pro12 game then they would be beating Connacht, Edinburgh, Zebre and Treviso - and would be on a par with Glasgow in terms of numbers.

Everyone talks about funding but that's not as much of a problem as you may think. Currently the RFU only give them £375,000 a year for fielding English players. This is a pittance really. The SRU could match that tomorrow. It's less than the cost of an academy and under a 10th the cost of starting a new pro team. Plus LS already have an academy set up! The squad is fully pro and is sustainably financed. I don't know the exact figures, but by my estimation is would already be at around the £1.5-£2 million mark. A bit of extra funding and increased gate receipts would put them on a par with the Italian teams and Connacht. If the TV money increased and new sponsors were attracted then even better.

Quality wise anyone who watched the Glasgow pre-season game can see that they have the raw materials. With a few extra players and increased standard of rugby week in week out and I think they could be pretty competitive.

Rant over!

Even the PRL weren't proposing playing in an un sanctioned competition. LS are welcome to try to get the IRB rules changed so that they do t need RFU approval to play club rugby in England, but do not be mistaken they absolutely do need that approval according to current IRB rules.

Even the breakaway welsh region vs union plan would have meant they could only have played games out of Wales.

This is nothing to do with being pro-English. I think it's a good idea for the SRU to give money to LS to play in the Championship if the RFU allows it instead of the £375k RFU money.

But I would see it as unlikely that the RFU would want to see the growth of another big London-based club that was competing in a different competition (pro12). Or be blackmailed into giving LS more money because LS suggests it.

That is precisely why the IRB rules are the way they are.

During the ERC debate, no-one, not even Bruce craig, was proposing playing in something that the IRB rules didn't bring within the fold of rugby.

So I don't see the hypocrisy?

And I also was a big fan of the way Ian Ritchie cooperated with the PRL on many areas. I don't remember criticising the current RFU at all.

I firmly believe every country has to look out for itself and it's clubs. England is now doing that. Ireland there is no separation. Scotland likewise. Wales has hopefully prevented its own civil war. France there is very little cooperation. The hypocrisy I don't like is the pretense that certain nations have any obligation to help or fund other nations via the backdoor. Let it be explicit and via the IRB development funds. Not via the ERC status quo and rigged votes by crusty, nameless controlling blazer types

That's my rant over

Obviously the Pro12 unions should only consider such a proposal with the express permission of the RFU. But if the RFU gave their blessing (why should they?) I think it could work.

One thing that is necessary if it did happen would be to restructure the season. 12 is the upper limit for teams the current format can support.

quinsforever wrote:Even the PRL weren't proposing playing in an un sanctioned competition.  LS are welcome to try to get the IRB rules changed so that they do t need RFU approval to play club rugby in England, but do not be mistaken they absolutely do need that approval according to current IRB rules.

Even the breakaway welsh region vs union plan would have meant they could only have played games out of Wales.

This is nothing to do with being pro-English. I think it's a good idea for the SRU to give money to LS to play in the Championship if the RFU allows it instead of the £375k RFU money.

But I would see it as unlikely that the RFU would want to see the growth of another big London-based club that was competing in a different competition (pro12). Or be blackmailed into giving LS more money because LS suggests it.

That is precisely why the IRB rules are the way they are.

During the ERC debate, no-one, not even Bruce craig, was proposing playing in something that the IRB rules didn't bring within the fold of rugby.

So I don't see the hypocrisy?

And I also was a big fan of the way Ian Ritchie cooperated with the PRL on many areas. I don't remember criticising the current RFU at all.

I firmly believe every country has to look out for itself and it's clubs. England is now doing that. Ireland there is no separation. Scotland likewise. Wales has hopefully prevented its own civil war. France there is very little cooperation. The hypocrisy I don't like is the pretense that certain nations have any obligation to help or fund other nations via the backdoor. Let it be explicit and via the IRB development funds. Not via the ERC status quo and rigged votes by crusty, nameless controlling blazer types

That's my rant over

As opposed to a new status quo with rigged votes by crusty representatives of PRL and LNR? The more things change, the more they stay the same.

It's called progress

The format is improved. The money is more equal. Few teething problems with sponsorship but they have plenty of time to sort that out.

Looking forwards to the group stage starting and fewer walkover matches messing up group dynamics

quinsforever wrote:Even the PRL weren't proposing playing in an un sanctioned competition.  LS are welcome to try to get the IRB rules changed so that they do t need RFU approval to play club rugby in England, but do not be mistaken they absolutely do need that approval according to current IRB rules.

As I mentioned this is pure conjecture and was clearly a punt on the part of the journalist in question. None-the-less it wouldn't require anything from the RFU. Everything from funding and logistical back, to referees and PR would come from the SRU/PRO12, other than noses out of joint I can't see a good reason why the RFU would get shirty about any such move - especially after the way they've traded Scottish. As LS are an SRU registered club I can't see the IRB having many complaints, especially as it would help strengthen what they see as an ailing top table nation.

quinsforever wrote:It's called progress

The format is improved. The money is more equal. Few teething problems with sponsorship but they have plenty of time to sort that out.

Looking forwards to the group stage starting and fewer walkover matches messing up group dynamics

Hopefully Sale can keep it to under 60 in all their games this time