Ulster vs Toulon

First topic message reminder :

Probably the match of the round and no thread yet??

Toulon leading 6-3 with 30 minutes gone. Giteaus off injured with JOC on at ten to replace him.

Anyone else watching?

The Saint wrote:

quinsforever wrote:have the breakdown rules changed? cos i'm just not seeing it the same way Barnes is. i have counted 5 instances where players were clearly off their feet playing the ball. both sides.

Missed some of this 2nd half, but Toulon do that all the time and mostly get away with it.

I don't think its just a Toulon thing, any team that figure out the ref will allow them to get away with it will do it.

Toulon living offside during all that but they are just a defensive brick wall, brilliantly done. They have been by far the better side and probably should have had a few more points on the scoreboard. Ulster solid and dependable at best but absolutely predictable.

forward pass?

It will be a travesty if Ulster get anything from this, Barnes just gave a pen to Ulster for Toulon holding on, yet Ulster didn't even have their hands on the ball

nathan wrote:

The Saint wrote:

quinsforever wrote:have the breakdown rules changed? cos i'm just not seeing it the same way Barnes is. i have counted 5 instances where players were clearly off their feet playing the ball. both sides.

Missed some of this 2nd half, but Toulon do that all the time and mostly get away with it.

I don't think its just a Toulon thing, any team that figure out the ref will allow them to get away with it will do it.

Yeah I guess they do. But it's more annoying when Toulon get away with it. It's hard enough to beat them without them getting any help!

Great finish

Well done Ulster, played loads better at the end. Have Ulster been having slow starts in other games this season?

Come on Ian............... not to be

Very disappointing, we were simply outclassed by a much better team. Fair play Toulon.

nathan wrote:It will be a travesty if Ulster get anything from this, Barnes just gave a pen to Ulster for Toulon holding on, yet Ulster didn't even have their hands on the ball

that was funny. the ball was on the floor but Barnes didnt see it.

never mind.

not Barnes best day at the breakdown tbh.

toulon love the contact. impressive power all over the park.

Can't see anyone beating Toulon this year. Could it be the first time a team wins 3 in a row?

Yeah you'd feel a lot worse if we'd played our best and gotten a bit closer but we were average today and Toulon, luckily for the scoreboard were better than their average.
We are yet to get started this season so there is a lot to look forward to this season.

I think that game perfectly illustrates why we needed to use the NIQ player we had in the summer on a quality back row and not a fullback. The whole match we suffered at the breakdown and when Payne went to fullback he cut a great line and set up the try, w ehad plenty of options in the centres but the decision to have Payne at 13 this season and the subsequent signing of Ludik (as good as he has been) has left us so short of quality back rowers.
Well done Toulon though them guys just have class on the pitch everywhere you look.
Interesting to see if there will be any citing over the Olding injury this week.

Did he just that Shaun Edwards will be in him? lol

greenwood adamant that steffon armitage should be in the england squad

Yeah we are light in the breakdown and needed our big game players for this one, an extra NIQ backrower in there would have been useful. Payne once again shows how he needs to be playing from 15 where he shines and leave the midfield to our specialists of which we have many. Nil Desperandum lads!!!!

I cannot abide Delon Armitage...............

I think the issue here is we are light in the Breakdown which should primarily come from your backrow now we know Henry is great at that but that's the problem he is to only one. Diack is solid but no more and Williams is spectacular at times but a complete liability, Wilso is just solid and that is our starting back row there is not anyone else to come in there unless Henderson plays back row. Its a big issue and because of Payne being a centre it was not addressed over the summer.

Just a quick thought on the Olding injury incident (and I'm not saying this made any difference on the game) Olding was tackled went to ground and someone then started to take the Toulon defender away he then kicked presumably for the ball but hit Olding head hard and caused Olding to go off. Now thing is he could not have seen where he was kicking and was probably aiming for the ball so there is no real intent there but here is my issue, he knew Olding was on the ground in the vicinity because Olding was long down before the player was attempted rucked out of it so surely he has a duty of care knowing Olding is there to make sure if he is kicking that he doesn't kick Olding. So my opinion is that since he cannot see Olding but knows he will be in that area he is very wreckless and with the laws the way they are at the minute was lucky to not see Red and should be cited for it. Again just to clarify I think Toulon still would have won but that's my opinion on the incident and I think a fair description of what happened.

Pete330v2 wrote:I cannot abide Delon Armitage...............

He's a good player, trouble is i think he knows it!

neilthom7 wrote:Just a quick thought on the Olding injury incident (and I'm not saying this made any difference on the game) Olding was tackled went to ground and someone then started to take the Toulon defender away he then kicked presumably for the ball but hit Olding head hard and caused Olding to go off.  Now thing is he could not have seen where he was kicking and was probably aiming for the ball so there is no real intent there but here is my issue, he knew Olding was on the ground in the vicinity because Olding was long down before the player was attempted rucked out of it so surely he has a duty of care knowing Olding is there to make sure if he is kicking that he doesn't kick Olding.  So my opinion is that since he cannot see Olding but knows he will be in that area he is very wreckless and with the laws the way they are at the minute was lucky to not see Red and should be cited for it. Again just to clarify I think Toulon still would have won but that's my opinion on the incident and I think a fair description of what happened.

he wont be cited. and given this seems to be happening several times in every game there is not even a rule he has breached. no intent and no rule broken.

if you want to outlaw flyhacking in rucks fair enough. but its not currently illegal.

there are always players on the ground in rucks. thats the definition of a ruck. so either flyhacks are legal or they are not. there's no "he should have known his head might have been there" middle ground. it was either deliberate foul play or not an infringement at all.

quinsforever wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:Just a quick thought on the Olding injury incident (and I'm not saying this made any difference on the game) Olding was tackled went to ground and someone then started to take the Toulon defender away he then kicked presumably for the ball but hit Olding head hard and caused Olding to go off.  Now thing is he could not have seen where he was kicking and was probably aiming for the ball so there is no real intent there but here is my issue, he knew Olding was on the ground in the vicinity because Olding was long down before the player was attempted rucked out of it so surely he has a duty of care knowing Olding is there to make sure if he is kicking that he doesn't kick Olding.  So my opinion is that since he cannot see Olding but knows he will be in that area he is very wreckless and with the laws the way they are at the minute was lucky to not see Red and should be cited for it. Again just to clarify I think Toulon still would have won but that's my opinion on the incident and I think a fair description of what happened.

he wont be cited. and given this seems to be happening several times in every game there is not even a rule he has breached. no intent and no rule broken.

if you want to outlaw flyhacking in rucks fair enough. but its not currently illegal.

there are always players on the ground in rucks. thats the definition of a ruck. so either flyhacks are legal or they are not. there's no "he should have known his head might have been there" middle ground. it was either deliberate foul play or not an infringement at all.

It's true, I'm just in and haven't seen any replays- or read the thread beshocked, if you're out there!- but it looked like an honest attempt to go for the ball

Well in fairness quins there does seem there is an ever growing middle ground I mean the decision to red Payne last year was made entirely on he should have know he would be there. What I am saying is the player has a duty of care that if he cannot see the ball he should not be hacking at it knowing that a player is there that is wreckless, it is not the hacking at the ball that in my view was illegal it is the fact he could not actually see what he was hacking at

Notch wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:Just a quick thought on the Olding injury incident (and I'm not saying this made any difference on the game) Olding was tackled went to ground and someone then started to take the Toulon defender away he then kicked presumably for the ball but hit Olding head hard and caused Olding to go off.  Now thing is he could not have seen where he was kicking and was probably aiming for the ball so there is no real intent there but here is my issue, he knew Olding was on the ground in the vicinity because Olding was long down before the player was attempted rucked out of it so surely he has a duty of care knowing Olding is there to make sure if he is kicking that he doesn't kick Olding.  So my opinion is that since he cannot see Olding but knows he will be in that area he is very wreckless and with the laws the way they are at the minute was lucky to not see Red and should be cited for it. Again just to clarify I think Toulon still would have won but that's my opinion on the incident and I think a fair description of what happened.

he wont be cited. and given this seems to be happening several times in every game there is not even a rule he has breached. no intent and no rule broken.

if you want to outlaw flyhacking in rucks fair enough. but its not currently illegal.

there are always players on the ground in rucks. thats the definition of a ruck. so either flyhacks are legal or they are not. there's no "he should have known his head might have been there" middle ground. it was either deliberate foul play or not an infringement at all.

It's true,  I'm just in and haven't seen any replays- or read the thread beshocked, if you're out there!- but it looked like an honest attempt to go for the ball

Oh I wouldn't dispute he was trying for the ball but he didn't get it which means either he couldn't see where he was hacking at (this is the most likely one) which is wreckless as you cant just go around hacking hoping you hit the ball and not a player or he could see the ball in which case he knew Olding was going to get hit. Either way in my opinion wreckless

There is no 'he should have known his head might be there' law but there is a 'he should have known that someone might be jumping into the air' law, double standards indeed

Na he shouldn't be cited, it was clearly unintentional although unfortunate for Olding. Mind you it wouldn't surprise me if it happened, after Alan O'Connor was banned nothing would surprise me when it comes to citings. Rugby is a very physical game and people will be hurt. Seemples!!!!!!

Pete330v2 wrote:There is no 'he should have known his head might be there' law but there is a 'he should have known that someone might be jumping into the air' law, double standards indeed

Na he shouldn't be cited, it was clearly unintentional although unfortunate for Olding. Mind you it wouldn't surprise me if it happened, after Alan O'Connor was banned nothing would surprise me when it comes to citings. Rugby is a very physical game and people will be hurt. Seemples!!!!!!

you are right. definitely double standards, but i can see why they veer more towards protecting players in the air than players on the ground, given rucking has long been a core part of the game (and tbh its very tame these days)

Toulon were the better team so congratulations to them, and congratulations to their wonderfully vociferous traveling fans.

Two key players that illustrate why we lost for me- Carl Hayman and Mathieu Bastareaud. Hayman was able to milk technical penalties out of Barnes against the inexperienced Warwick; Warwick has been excellent this season and gave up nothing in power but any young prop will take time to learn the 'dark arts' and Hayman did a very professional job on him technically and in a game which was more even than the HT scoreline suggested those scrum penalties were absolutely defining. Bastareaud is symptomatic of Toulons ability to take contact, suck in defenders and keep the ball alive. We don't have anyone with that physicality apart from Nick Williams, who had a terrible game when he came on in terms of holding onto the ball on the ground and getting pinged multiple times and throwing a shocking pass for the second try. The Ulster attack was unable to break them down because whenever play got slow we had no-one who could keep the ball alive in contact or ride the first tackle and we got sucked into a ruck situation- we weren't able to generate enough quick ball against that mighty pack. And like I said before- Williams had a shocker when he came on.

I'm disappointed we're basically out of Europe, but I didn't think we played badly at all. Not that we played well but we look like a team thats developing. The scrum cost us and we are not clinical enough in the 22, our phase play is our weakness because without Henderson and Tuohy we lack carriers. I would have had them both on the pitch today if they were fit, they would add that athleticism and power we are missing. But there was still a lot of good about the performance, just not enough against a team that is right up there. The defence was top class both first up and scrambling defence, to score the first try they had to produce some true class, we looked very good in broken play. We forced several good turnovers and Jackson had a good game at 10, reacting well to the disappointment of not being involved in the Autumn Internationals.

I do think this game shows we are at least a season off getting back to being a team that can compete to actually win the premier competition and in many ways getting to focus on the Pro12 playoff drive down the back straight of the season will help us in the long term. In 2012 we finished sixth in the league due to having little depth and focusing on the European Cup, last year our focus being completely on Europe saw us finish fourth and get this hard draw as third seeds. We can get a top two placing and a kinder draw. I don't believe we have the depth in the forwards to compete on two fronts but I do believe we've shown enough quality to illustrate we can win the Pro12 itself where you will not come up against packs like Toulon because our rivals (Leinster, Ospreys, Glasgow, Munster) tend to be ore back line orientated, which suits us.

Onwards and upwards. Disappointed, but not embarrassed like last week.

quinsforever wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:There is no 'he should have known his head might be there' law but there is a 'he should have known that someone might be jumping into the air' law, double standards indeed

Na he shouldn't be cited, it was clearly unintentional although unfortunate for Olding. Mind you it wouldn't surprise me if it happened, after Alan O'Connor was banned nothing would surprise me when it comes to citings. Rugby is a very physical game and people will be hurt. Seemples!!!!!!

you are right. definitely double standards, but i can see why they veer more towards protecting players in the air than players on the ground, given rucking has long been a core part of the game (and tbh its very tame these days)

It is a bit, this was the argument Joe Schmidt made when O'Connell kicked Dave Kearney in the head by mistake (and Sin still blydi goes on about him making it). But I say the same thing I said regarding the Payne incident at the time and the O'Connor incident; with the best will in the world, these things happen. I don't get exercised about it and it annoys me when other people do. I understand the need for player safety but in a game like this accidents do happen unfortunately.

Again not saying that it was intentional or that there is a specific law against it all I am saying is that it falls under wreckless and dangerous play because you cannot just go around hacking at something which you cannot see knowing a player will be there. That's all I am saying, I am also not saying he should be banned just that in the current climate within rugby he could be considered lucky with shall we say soft cards being handed out in places and that it could lead to a citing in the current climate.
All I am hoping for is that Olding will not have any problems with it and will be available for us v Dragons

Notch wrote:Toulon were the better team so congratulations to them, and congratulations to their wonderfully vociferous traveling fans.

Two key players that illustrate why we lost for me- Carl Hayman and Mathieu Bastareaud. Hayman was able to milk technical penalties out of Barnes against the inexperienced Warwick; Warwick has been excellent this season and gave up nothing in power but any young prop will take time to learn the 'dark arts' and Hayman did a very professional job on him technically and in a game which was more even than the HT scoreline suggested those scrum penalties were absolutely defining. Bastareaud is symptomatic of Toulons ability to take contact, suck in defenders and keep the ball alive. We don't have anyone with that physicality apart from Nick Williams, who had a terrible game when he came on in terms of holding onto the ball on the ground and getting pinged multiple times and throwing a shocking pass for the second try. The Ulster attack was unable to break them down because whenever play got slow we had no-one who could keep the ball alive in contact or ride the first tackle and we got sucked into a ruck situation- we weren't able to generate enough quick ball against that mighty pack. And like I said before- Williams had a shocker when he came on.

I'm disappointed we're basically out of Europe, but I didn't think we played badly at all. Not that we played well but we look like a team thats developing. The scrum cost us and we are not clinical enough in the 22, our phase play is our weakness because without Henderson and Tuohy we lack carriers. I would have had them both on the pitch today if they were fit, they would add that athleticism and power we are missing. But there was still a lot of good about the performance, just not enough against a team that is right up there. The defence was top class both first up and scrambling defence, to score the first try they had to produce some true class, we looked very good in broken play. We forced several good turnovers and Jackson had a good game at 10, reacting well to the disappointment of not being involved in the Autumn Internationals.

I do think this game shows we are at least a season off getting back to being a team that can compete to actually win the premier competition and in many ways getting to focus on the Pro12 playoff drive down the back straight of the season will help us in the long term. In 2012 we finished sixth in the league due to having little depth and focusing on the European Cup, last year our focus being completely on Europe saw us finish fourth and get this hard draw as third seeds. We can get a top two placing and a kinder draw. I don't believe we have the depth in the forwards to compete on two fronts but I do believe we've shown enough quality to illustrate we can win the Pro12 itself where you will not come up against packs like Toulon because our rivals (Leinster, Ospreys, Glasgow, Munster) tend to be ore back line orientated, which suits us.

Onwards and upwards. Disappointed, but not embarrassed like last week.

How I'm feeling too Notch, we've got lots to look forward to this season. Wait till St Ruan comes back

quinsforever wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:There is no 'he should have known his head might be there' law but there is a 'he should have known that someone might be jumping into the air' law, double standards indeed

Na he shouldn't be cited, it was clearly unintentional although unfortunate for Olding. Mind you it wouldn't surprise me if it happened, after Alan O'Connor was banned nothing would surprise me when it comes to citings. Rugby is a very physical game and people will be hurt. Seemples!!!!!!

you are right. definitely double standards, but i can see why they veer more towards protecting players in the air than players on the ground, given rucking has long been a core part of the game (and tbh its very tame these days)

True, tame isn't the word for it, nothing like the slaughterhouses they were in the good old days of being ripped to shreds if you lay on the wrong side etc. Happy times

i always reckon POC would have loved the good old days. Just like Martin Johnston

quinsforever wrote:i always reckon POC would have loved the good old days. Just like Martin Johnston

You know Ryan Caldwell, ex-Ulster plays for Exeter now? O'Connell once sent him to hospital after some funny business where Caldwell was offside in a ruck in an Ireland training session. Punched him so hard he went into spasm. Eyes rolling in his head, blood coming out of his mouth. He'd be pretty high on anyones list of people not to tangle with if he was back in the 'good old days'.

Thats why rugby can't be that sort of free for all sport anymore- because if it's someone like Paul O'Connell or Bakkies Botha sorting it out in the old-fashioned way people are going to be way, way too vulnerable to really bad injuries! We get enough bad injuries with sheer accidents the players are so powerful now.

Yeah agree with your summary of today Notch
We have some real good things we can take away with us
Warwick is playing great but obviously needs a bit of time to learn but will be good for us in the future.
We are fine for Locks when everyone is fit and available
We are short of back rows with real quality and have a few getting on a bit so this will need to be our focus over the next year or so hopefully some of the younger guys we have their can start to take strides in their career over the next year and make an impact.
Backs wise we have some great options all over the park and guys who can change it up we just need to try and nail down players to their best positions (I'll be honest I'm talking about Payne lol)
Basically I think we can do well in the Pro 12 this year and are well set for the next few years with a few exceptions which is great if you count the injuries we have and the players we lost over the summer.

Notch wrote:

quinsforever wrote:i always reckon POC would have loved the good old days. Just like Martin Johnston

You know Ryan Caldwell, ex-Ulster plays for Exeter now? O'Connell once sent him to hospital after some funny business where Caldwell was offside in a ruck in an Ireland training session. Punched him so hard he went into spasm. Eyes rolling in his head, blood coming out of his mouth. He'd be pretty high on anyones list of people not to tangle with if he was back in the 'good old days'.

Thats why rugby can't be that sort of free for all sport anymore- because if it's someone like Paul O'Connell or Bakkies Botha sorting it out in the old-fashioned way people are going to be way, way too vulnerable to really bad injuries! We get enough bad injuries with sheer accidents the players are so powerful now.

although you would get less cheap shots if there were still enforcers around. farrell and liam williams would be far less likely to act up for example.

i think its more the money, and sponsorship/endorsement/big bucks tv contracts combined with multiple camera angles and replays, that have forced the game to clean itself up.

i love POC and Martin Johnston for their "never a backward step" attitude. rugby should be a game for hardmen, not wimps, cheapshot merchants or playacting (not referring to cj stander, just the general trend)

Well done to Toulon - they were simply in a different league. They are now the template of success and more French and English teams will follow suit to compete with them.

Ulster need zero injuries to compete with these teams and therefore should now focus solely on the PRO12 where they are more competitive. They should really use the rest of the Franglo to develop the squad, because three or four of Ulster's top players will undoubtedly be lured away next season.

The Great Aukster wrote:
Ulster need zero injuries to compete with these teams and therefore should now focus solely on the PRO12

Big time. Still play our strongest team at home to Tigers, but write Europe off aside from that. We've been competing on two fronts for the past 3 seasons and lost on both fronts everytime. This is an opportunity for us to win the Pro12 this season.

The Great Aukster wrote:

Ulster need zero injuries to compete with these teams and therefore should now focus solely on the PRO12 where they are more competitive.

Worryingly though with the last three games at the close of the season being Leinster, Munster and Glasgow combined with a draw and a loss (against Zebre), we can't afford to drop very many points at all if we are to succeed in the Pro12. And also probably losing more players than ever to Ireland during AIs and 6N. Trimble injured and both Bowe and Gilroy with Ireland. You have to wonder who we will be playing during the AIs. Not to mention the fact we have not looked fantastic in the league so far.

I haven't read all the comments but ... if I were an Ulster fan I would be seriously worried at the team's inability to protect the ball. I am not talking about the few superb turnovers but the way time after time Ulster almost handed the ball to Toulon at the breakdown. I was genuinely surprised.

Hey, at least Scarlets beat Leicester. It kind of opens the door a crack doesn't it? Still very unlikely we will make it out of the group though.

If we have top players back for the next game, then maybe should consider giving it a lash. If we are still weak - maybe time to concentrate on the league...

Ulster are rebuilding this season with a lot of new inexperienced faces, even with zero injuries they have four or five positions with journeymen starting. They may become Test class in time but that time isn't now, therefore there is no point in striving for a best runner-up spot that carries no ranking.

It is patently obvious that irrespective of Ulster's mathematical chance of making the quarters, once there they don't have the depth to compete this year. On the other hand if they somehow still managed to qualify after using the pool games to develop squad players they would be in a much better position to compete.

They will of course be limited in their selection because of the squad restrictions, but there is still enough scope to introduce Murphy, Bronson Ross, O'Connor and Clive Ross in the home Scarlets game and depending on that outcome, more changes the following week.