PGA Tour: Season's GB&I / Europeans Report Card: Notes from the Ballwasher

First topic message reminder :

1).Let's take time to reflect on who did well during the 2013/2014 season, and who had 12-months they'd just as soon forget. By order of finish on the Official Money List, and rated A thru F (fail):

2).1 - 30:
McIlroy: A+++: It's all been said elsewhere. The sky's the limit.
Garcia: B+:      No "A"'s for galactico non-winners. Time for some big wins.
Kaymer: A++:   Two big ups more than compensate for the smattering of downs.
Rose: A:          Struggled with niggling injuries early, including to his putter. Purple patch in mid-summer. In the prime of his career so much more is expected - perhaps the Ryder Cup success is the springboard he needed?

3).31 - 60:
McDowell: B:     Only played three times in a 3-month period as he took a pre-paternity break. Got the season off to a fast (HSBC) start and kind of free-wheeled after that. Expect a strong 2014/15.
Jacobson: B-:    Freddie looks like he's content to be Freddie. Ho-hum, narrowly missed out at the Wyndham, $2M in the bank, short-game genius but short and crooked off the tee. The only thing he's best at on Tour is table-tennis.
Stenson: C:       Henrik spent all year complaining how knackered he was, and mostly played like it. Hope he takes a nice break and proves to be a 2013-like force in next year's Majors.

4).61 - 75:
Poulter: E:        Won more than half his money at the HSBC Champions last November. Dismal year, terrible stats (which for once don't lie) and will flirt with losing his card if he repeats his 2014.
Knox: A:           Come on, who expected such a fine year from the callow Scot??!! Top 35's in all but two of his first 11 events set his year up. All ball-striking stats good so a stroke-a-tournament gained around the greens will catapult him to leaderboards week in, week out. Should have got closer to the Las Vegas title two weeks ago, terrible body language during his mid-round (4) wobble.
Donald: C-:      A tale of two seasons. Good start (B), domestic upheaval (I imagine) followed by lousy second half (E). Don't care who you are, for a family man to be working 3,000 miles away when your child is born prematurely has got to take its toll on the family. Take a break, get that swing-change sorted and fine-tune your short game and 2015 should be a success. I hope.


5).76 - 90:
Pettersson: C:    Much improved after an awful 2013. No wins though, and a dodgy short game. Last chance to make hay before you bin that putter Carl.
Blixt: C-:           Only Top 15 was his Masters runner-up. World class short game can't disguise abysmal ball-striking (171st on Tour). Career on the line this season.
Westwood: D:    Woke up in time for decent finishes at Augusta, The Players and PGA. Rubbish otherwise. Sh1t or bust for Lee this year, I'd think, but off to a good start at the Frys and returning this week to a happy hunting ground. Expect a very good year. Otherwise sell up and return to Worksop.

6).91 - 125:
Gonzo: C-:         Waited until July for his first Top 20 finish, 4th in Canada which saved his season. Terrible stats right across the board, awful start to the new season and the moving-to-Miami experiment could be over by August.
Casey: B:           Resurrected his Tour career from the uncertainty of conditional status, a significant achievement. But he's 37 and, if he's going to return to World Class, you'd think it needs to be now. A good few weeks coming up and he'll be back in the owgr Top 50 - a big help, to his schedule and his confidence.
Davis: E:            No Top 10's all year, missed the $1M earnings mark for the first time in 8 years, and a poor start this season. More of the same and his journeyman-plus career will be in jeopardy.

7).126 - 150:
Lingmerth: C:      Always looks to be over-achieving but retrieved his card at the end of the season and could have a Davis-like career ahead of him.
Laird: D:            Seemingly distracted by parenthood, his season only got into gear in late summer with 5 x Top 30's in a row. Already well on his way back to the Top 125. Expecting a much better year.

8)151st and worse!:
F's across the board for Hanson, Olesen, Lynn, Harrington, Clarke (wisely relinquished his card) and Colsaerts.
C's for Cejka and Owen as they return to the Tour; forty-somethings now and it ain't gonna get any easier for these two.

9).Don't much care for this week's CIMB tournament and it seems the players largely feel that way too - some good players have turned up but so many more are thumbing their noses at a share of $7M. Worth harbouring the hope though that Westwood might repeat his winning -18 finish from earlier this year; course specialist!

10).How about finishing with a round of applause for Germany's original favourite golfing son, Bernhard Langer. Say what you like about mid-fifties golfers with long putters, skin tight skin and long-time yipaholics, but Langer will likely top the $3M mark in Champions Tour earnings for 2014 this week (not to mention the $230K+ he banked from Augusta) and has Champions Tour career earnings of more than $15M.

In much the same way that the PGA Tour dishes out $10M to the FedEx winner, Bernhard has already secured the $1M annuity for winning this year's Charles Schwab Cup - hopefully he'll finish his year in style with the 6th win of his season at the year-ending Tour Championship.

Champions Tour Stage 1 Q-School begins today, at three sites.
SET golfers teeing it up include:
Golding,
Mark Davis,
Farry,
Fowler,
Mouland,
Tinning,
Bossert,
Forsbrand,
Monasterio,
Plus assorted Tour players' fathers, caddies, Aussies, Tour veterans and a retired NFL quarterback.

Barry Lane has an exemption thru' to "Final Stage".

GPB wrote:You Brits sure get your knickers in a knot about the silliest of things from America.

Silly? It's dead serious. (Although it appears silly.)

Glorification of the military awakes the cave man in most of us, and in particular amongst the lesser educated. And interestingly enough also amongst the more religious groups as one should believe Christianity was a religion of peace. .

If there was no public support of the military you'd never get away with sending "our troops" into global hot spots and a multi billion dollar industry fueled by spendings larger that ROW combined would be at risk.

Although there's a cultural element in this glorification you should not underestimate the economic and political interests in having a glorified military.

I made the comparison with Russian Open. It may be a stretch to make it with German Masters but don't ingnore that some people draw that comparison.

pedro wrote:
Glorification of the military awakes the cave man in most of us, and in particular amongst the lesser educated. And interestingly enough also amongst the more religious groups as one should believe Christianity was a religion of peace.   .

Wow... I'm one that try's to stay out of discussions involving politics and religion, especially on a golf board... but nothing rankles me more than BS statements like the above... "lesser educated"... WTF?

Bottom line: I could give a rat what ANYBODY's opinion of the military or religion might be (and I'm darn sure not getting into it here)...  but that said... IMO NOTHING is more intellectually bankrupt than suggesting simple opposition to your views on this (or any) topic are somehow to be considered intellectually deficient or "lesser educated" than your own.  Sheesh... talking about the height of arrogance...

Selective Memories? I wonder what the Europe would look like in post 1945 with the US Military.

Anyways, Tee times in China are strange. Nearly all the top ranked players are going off #10 tee on Day 1.

Robo,
May I quote Jose Mourinho (if you ever heard of him): "People call me arrogant because I say the truth."

Military glorification mobilises the masses and ignites nationalism - especially where the masses are plentiful. That's a historical fact. You may think all this sycophancy is just silly or innocent but I bet that Billy Bob doesn't.

GPB,
And yes we thank you for the 1940's and on. But since we in Europe, better than anyone, know what military glorification ignites in people and can lead to - and since we have had a "glorious" past ourselves with colonialism, crusades, endless wars, military tension you name it - you can say we've had enough of it and try to move on.

Churchill was right:
"The Americans can always be trusted to do the right thing, when all other possibilities have been exhausted."

A bit late to the show but thank gawd you woke up when you did.

It's not about them and us guys, it's about whether the "West" is using its power wisely.
"Strength" should never be synonymous with "Force", and sometimes over here that is forgotten; force is used unwisely, at the expense of developing strength, whether economic, environmental, educational, you name it, but force should be the last resort. Time to explain that to America's conservatives.

GPB wrote:Selective Memories?  I wonder what the Europe would look like in post 1945 with the US Military.

Anyways, Tee times in China are strange.  Nearly all the top ranked players are going off #10 tee on Day 1.

Dear oh dear. Here we go again. Yanks win war all by themselves.

The contribution of Russia was FAR more important than the late appearance of America. Truth is all the allies played important parts in the war, along with hitler's mumbling strategies, let's not overplay the importance of America in the war.
Contributory, yes, vital, no.

robo/gpb/other yanks

Is it possible your military and the politics driving what it is used for have changed since the 1940's?  To compare WW2 or WW1 to the sort of conflicts we get involved in now seems like a false equivalence.

But even if you do consider modern warfare to be a worthy exercise does that mean we should heap overt praise on those that take part in it?  Many people do exceptionally difficult jobs and yet it is only armed forces personnel who line the fairways.  If you want to celebrate people who have done a truly remarkable task then line up the black single mothers from disadvantages neighbourhoods who got a kid into college.


PS I sympathise with you now that your nation has swung further in the direction of a Christian theocracy again.

super_realist wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:Interesting. While I agree there's some sycophancy re. military in U.S., I think some of the comments above are fairly uninformed and are just knee-jerk 'military bashing'. Much of what's done by the military is non-combat i.e. in West Africa just now.
Pick on the politicians who make the decisions as to where military force is applied by all means but try thinking a little bit before trash talking those who actually serve in any forces anywhere.

The point Navy I think is that in America it's almost an artificial and contrived  as well as an exaggerated appreciation for the job, i.e there appears a cultural expectation that you MUST whoop and holler like a lunatic every time someone from the American military is presented to a crowd.

kwinigolfer wrote:It's the symbolism that is nauseating, not the soldiers themselves.

Sad thing is that when these guys return from their respective politically motivated combat, the exact same people who apply the "virtual fellatio" are the very same wallies who deny appropriate health care and remediation.

pedro wrote:As super said I don't blame the actual soldiers but the entire hooo haaa and virtual fellatio surrounding the US military.

That's all fine. So confine remarks to the sycophants and the politicians.

McLaren wrote:robo/gpb/other yanks

Is it possible your military and the politics driving what it is used for have changed since the 1940's?  To compare WW2 or WW1 to the sort of conflicts we get involved in now seems like a false equivalence.

But even if you do consider modern warfare to be a worthy exercise does that mean we should heap overt praise on those that take part in it?  Many people do exceptionally difficult jobs and yet it is only armed forces personnel who line the fairways.  If you want to celebrate people who have done a truly remarkable task then line up the black single mothers from disadvantages neighbourhoods who got a kid into college.


PS I sympathise with you now that your nation has swung further in the direction of a Christian theocracy again.

Christ Mac, You just had to didn't you?

So no surprise to see that O'Grady is going. Anyone have an idea of who will replace him, and whether or not his departure will signal a change in tactics for the European tour?

Happy to see O'Grady get ready to go.
Hope his successor will focus more on growing the game in Europe and less on incenting Europeans to play thousands of miles away from home.

Golf Digest ranking of "golf's favourite players" as voted on by "serious golfers": (More than one pro could be chosen.):
57%: Mickelson
46%: McIlroy
45%: Woods
19%: Fowler
18%: Watson (Bubba, not 8 Majors Tom)

kwinigolfer wrote:Happy to see O'Grady get ready to go.
Hope his successor will focus more on growing the game in Europe and less on incenting Europeans to play thousands of miles away from home.

O'Grady leaving is probably a good thing, but I'm not so sure much of the problem with the current state of the European Tour lies at his doorstep. With the European economy this guy has been dealing with... seems to me he's been required to have so many fingers in the dike it might be a remarkable achievement the Euro Tour has as many events on it's schedule as we see today.  

Bottom line... if/when the economy recovers in Europe some more... the ET will likely be able to attract more events back to Europe proper (but unfortunately probably excluding the UK). But in the meantime, IMO not much more a new ET chief can do above what O'Grady's done... and that's to follow the money WHEREVER he can find it...

But Finchem showed how it should be done, robo.

Didn't agree with him leaving some Tour venues, but no doubting his "sapper" skill in navigating the economic landmines, ruthlessly abandoning distressed markets, and cultivating new bedfellows, even if the Stanfords, Bobby Ginns, Justices and Trumps of this world may be pretty seedy allies.

O'Grady never seemed to get in front of the issue, just seemed to be content to tell his members that if Spain is floundering, there's always Thailand. Being content to play second (or third) fiddle will always be a self-fulfilling prophecy - just ask Brendan Rodgers.

robo

What evidence are you using to believe that sports sponsorship has decreased

a) at all

b) if so, that it is due to the european economy?

kwinigolfer wrote:Golf Digest ranking of "golf's favourite players" as voted on by "serious golfers": (More than one pro could be chosen.):
57%: Mickelson
46%: McIlroy
45%: Woods
19%: Fowler
18%: Watson (Bubba, not 8 Majors Tom)

Sounds about as worthwhile as polls which have a talentless scrubber like Cheryl Cole on top of most attractive lists.

Would being talentless or being a scrubber prevent you from being physically attractive?

McLaren wrote:Would being talentless or being a scrubber prevent you from being physically attractive?

Of course not, doesn't take away from the fact that polls like this are pretty pointless.

kwinigolfer wrote:O'Grady never seemed to get in front of the issue, just seemed to be content to tell his members that if Spain is floundering, there's always Thailand. Being content to play second (or third) fiddle will always be a self-fulfilling prophecy - just ask Brendan Rodgers.

Kwini... you've undoubtedly paid a lot more attention to the ET situation than I have... but still... while the U.S. economy has had some serious issues of its own... they've been relatively minor compared those of some key European "golf" countries... most notably Spain/Portugal going from 8 events as recently as 2007 and only 3 now. I don't think there's anything ANY ET executive could have done to get ahead of that one. And with the loss of those... that was basically the loss of the Mediterranean coast to stage late fall and winter events... so out of necessity there were only 2 places to go... more in Middle East, South Africa or Asia... the latter 2 won out.

The other issue is the taxation... I know I sound like a broken record on this one... but IMO the onerous UK athletes tax has become a "chicken & egg" situation being at least partially responsible for the relative inability to replace lost events in the UK. There's an old axiom that's TRUE... "Money goes to where it's treated most kindly". We can like it or not... but the fact of the matter is the world's top players get to CHOOSE where they live and play... and being the "mini corporations" that they are... it's natural that many choose to play sparingly in the UK, and many have moved their primary residence from there. So in that environment, how do you attract sponsors to get the UK portion of the schedule anywhere back to the number it used to be... IMO you don't, because who's going to want to sponsor new events in the UK when they know that without massive appearance fees it's going to be near impossible to attract any of the games top stars.

So take the 3-4 events the UK is down.. and add the 5 Spain/Portugal are down... and that's about 20% of your overall schedule.. and 40% of your European schedule GONE. IMO Spain/Portugal will be back once their economy recovers some more... which will make some new ET Exec "look good", but not so sure about UK or the rest of Europe proper regaining much.

In which case the example super gave makes no sense, if we assume he meant to imply the poll kwini mentioned was inaccurate.

In order to make the point that a poll could be inaccurate Super has provided an example of a poll where people rate a womans physical attractiveness, and qualified this with the information that the person ranked most physically attractive is talantless and a scrubber.

Following this logic super is saying that the physical attractiveness pole is inaccurate because of the attributes of talentlessness and scrubberlyness held by the person who came out on top. Therefore these two attributes must be (in supers world) negatively correlated in some way with physical attractiveness.

Mac - You bring up a very good point about single mothers raising children in the US or any country. Indeed, those accomplishments should be celebrated.

And don't buy into the fear mongering from armchair cynics. Believe even half the doomsday predictions about the ruination of America and the US would have been annexed by Mexico in the 1980's. Internal conflict, compromise, change of power (see last night's elections) are (IMO) a good check and balance and require adaptation -- something the US clearly does well.

Sweeping inane stereotypes I guess make some people feel good (and they certainly don't have to think much!) ... but the reality is usually a lot more complex.

I'm not sure they should be celebrated, bringing up a child well when you have one is what you are supposed to do. Not sure there is any credit or celebration due for meeting your expectation as a parent.

kwinigolfer wrote:But Finchem showed how it should be done, robo.

Didn't agree with him leaving some Tour venues, but no doubting his "sapper" skill in navigating the economic landmines, ruthlessly abandoning distressed markets, and cultivating new bedfellows, even if the Stanfords, Bobby Ginns, Justices and Trumps of this world may be pretty seedy allies.

Not sure I get the "ruthlessly abandoning" thing... the only major markets that's have been abandoned is Tucson and Detroit. Seems to me Timmy did EVERYTHING he could do to keep the WGC in Tucson... and hardly anything Finchem could have done about the meltdown of the American Auto industry... and thus the loss of Detroit. I mean come on... I'm quite sure BMW or Honda weren't interested in picking up Detroit...

And as for seedy characters... All I can say is they ALWAYS look seedy after they've been caught. Not sure I see the "seediness" issue with Justice (except for the backdoor appearance fees deal) or Trump either for that matter. All these guys are doing is pouring mega-bucks into venues to host events... nothing wrong with that. In fact I'd opine that if the ET is serious about getting some event's back in the UK... maybe kissing Trumps behind in Aberdeen would be a good place to start. Short of getting the Scottish Open or OPEN, he'd probably like nothing better than to get a ET event to showcase his property up there (and stroke his ego).

Shotrock wrote:Sweeping inane stereotypes I guess make some people feel good (and they certainly don't have to think much!) ... but the reality is usually a lot more complex.

Bingo

super_realist wrote:I'm not sure they should be celebrated, bringing up a child well when you have one is what you are supposed to do. Not sure there is any credit or celebration due for meeting your expectation as a parent.  

Super

What do you mean be "expectation as a parent"?

Do you mean what is statistically probably given your circumstances?

McLaren wrote:

super_realist wrote:I'm not sure they should be celebrated, bringing up a child well when you have one is what you are supposed to do. Not sure there is any credit or celebration due for meeting your expectation as a parent.  

Super

What do you mean be "expectation as a parent"?

Do you mean what is statistically probably given your circumstances?

Well, you seem to be willing to laud them to the rafters for doing what is the responsibility of all parents.

Reminds me of a great Chris Rock standup routine about parents boasting about being good parents and bringing up their children right.

That's what you are supposed to do.

robo,
It's all very well you talking about the European economy, taxation and the like, but most other sports are thriving.
There's more money in European football and tennis than there's ever been, perhaps cricket and the two Rugbys as well? But not golf O'Grady.

And, trust us, the US economy fell first and possibly farthest and most wilfully; deft damage control from Dubya's disaster has been rewarded in the markets and for the top 10%.
But, at the other end of the scale, the income inequity that accelerated during the Shrub years, has still not recovered.
Anywhere else you'd think there'd be some kind of civil war - here the 90% merely seem content to see the prejudices of the past reassert themselves.
Astonishing.

super_realist wrote:

McLaren wrote:

super_realist wrote:I'm not sure they should be celebrated, bringing up a child well when you have one is what you are supposed to do. Not sure there is any credit or celebration due for meeting your expectation as a parent.  

Super

What do you mean be "expectation as a parent"?

Do you mean what is statistically probably given your circumstances?

Well, you seem to be willing to laud them to the rafters for doing what is the responsibility of all parents.

Reminds me of a great Chris Rock standup routine about parents boasting about being good parents and bringing up their children right.

That's what you are supposed to do.

Super

Thats great, there is a chris rock routine that you like. But the question I asked is what do you mean by "expectation as a parent"? I can only respond properly when you define what you are talking about.

Yes, well, apart from Chicago, Atlanta (except a small feelgood event) Milwaukee, Denver.

And Trump and his companies have had more bankruptcies than some people have blowjobs.
As for Justice, he's the PGA Tour's version of Samuel Peabody . . . . . !

McLaren wrote:

super_realist wrote:

McLaren wrote:

super_realist wrote:I'm not sure they should be celebrated, bringing up a child well when you have one is what you are supposed to do. Not sure there is any credit or celebration due for meeting your expectation as a parent.  

Super

What do you mean be "expectation as a parent"?

Do you mean what is statistically probably given your circumstances?

Well, you seem to be willing to laud them to the rafters for doing what is the responsibility of all parents.

Reminds me of a great Chris Rock standup routine about parents boasting about being good parents and bringing up their children right.

That's what you are supposed to do.

Super

Thats great, there is a chris rock routine that you like.  But the question I asked is what do you mean by "expectation as a parent"?  I can only respond properly when you define what you are talking about.

It's very simple. THe expectation of a parent is to bring up a child well. Where's the need for a congratulation when they complete it?

Tax the professional golfers into oblivion like the UK is doing and there are consequences. We are evidently seeing that.

Email Donald, Westwood, Sergio (etc.) that since other sports are doing "well", we find it inconsistent in our thinking that our onerous tax structure isn't more embraced by you all ... so please come to more ET events. Thank you.  

(What's astonishing to me is that some people buy wholeheartedly into the chicken little drama.)

Super

Would you say it is possible for every parent to complete "brining up a child well" regardless of initial conditions?

In terms of bringing up a child with decent morals and manners, absolutely.

Plenty of people grow up below the poverty line in this country and others and are just fine, adversity doesn't necessarily deserve being fawned over like Americans cream over their military.

Not sure why you needed to stipulate why the mother was black, probably says more about you than you think.

What do Donald, Westwood and Sergio (etc) have to do with it?
Other sportsmen/women earn way more than they ever will, and there are hundreds more of them.
The ET is no field of dreams, nor is the PGA Tour. They have to be built, structured and nurtured, something the PGA Tour has been brilliant at, as have the EPL (And other leagues) WTA, ATP etc. But the ET has regressed.

Don't understand the chicken little drama comment. Who/what is that?

Super

Are you now saying that your definition of "expectation as a parent" is to raise a child with decent morals and manners?

McLaren wrote:Super

Are you now saying that your definition of "expectation as a parent" is to raise a child with decent morals and manners?

It is partially it. If you raise a child without them then you have failed in your responsibility as a parent. You can bring in all the education stuff later if you like, but by and large if you bring your child up to be a decent person with respect for themselves and others and that can contribute to society then you've done a pretty good job. Thought that was a bit of a mouthful though.



What do you consider the expectations?

kwinigolfer wrote:robo,
It's all very well you talking about the European economy, taxation and the like, but most other sports are thriving.
There's more money in European football and tennis than there's ever been, perhaps cricket and the two Rugbys as well? But not golf O'Grady.

And, trust us, the US economy fell first and possibly farthest and most wilfully; deft damage control from Dubya's disaster has been rewarded in the markets and for the top 10%.
But, at the other end of the scale, the income inequity that accelerated during the Shrub years, has still not recovered.
Anywhere else you'd think there'd be some kind of civil war - here the 90% merely seem content to see the prejudices of the past reassert themselves.
Astonishing.

I'd prefer to leave the "politics" of why economies have suffered or who is or isn't at fault to other boards more appropriate to the topic.

IMO the difference is the PGAT had built a lot stronger foundation in which to weather the storm. If you look at it.. professional golf DID in fact struggle mightily here... witness the significant contraction of the Champions & Web.com Tour events (not to mention the LPGA as a separate topic). One of the key's to the PGAT's success has been it's ability to in effect "raid" it's lesser tours of current and potential new sponsors to keep the mothership strong. But actually just how well is that mothership floating? Few people realize that adjusted for inflation... purses on the PGAT have actually declined by about 1.4% over the last 10 years... surviving yes.... but hardly flourishing. Meanwhile... America's most popular sport... football.... has been continuing to grow it's business at very healthy rates. Same thing Europe is seeing in it's most popular sports maybe?

Another thing is stars drive popularity in sport. And it seems to me that one benefit the PGA Tour has had is the immense popularity of a player in Tiger Woods and to some extent Phil Mickelson to elevate the popularity of the sport. (Even in his troubles TW still generated INTEREST)... But what has the Euro Tour had in "superstars" to help drive popularity during it's tough times? Not much. I'd be willing to wager that had Rory come about maybe 5-8 year's earlier... his popularity alone would have helped out the Euro Tour economics immensely, especially if he would have stayed in Europe. Obviously he couldn't have SOLVED the ET issues... but certainly provided a boost they haven't received from elsewhere.

Not so sure about that Robo, whilst you guys hero-worship certain players a the top of the game, we tend to deride them.

Super

Now that we have a definition for what you mean by expectations, and you mean that a parent has a responsibility to help a child gain a good moral understanding, would you say that in all circumstances a parent has the same chance to do this?

My mistake for ever complimenting Finchem in the first place!

I also think that one underlying facet of this is the penchant of most Americans to stay at home.
And for most people, in whatever walk of life, from other countries to explore "abroad".

That is a trump (poor choice of word) card American sport will always have, all other things being equal.

It's second nature for "internationals" to ply their sport overseas, not so much Americans, Serena Williams being an outstanding exception.

But: O"Grady did a terrible job!! I disagree it's about taxation, although that may be part of it.
Taxation gives universal health care, excellent public education, up-to-date infrastructure, sensible defence, all things which most Americans couldn't care less about.

McLaren wrote:Super

Now that we have a definition for what you mean by expectations, and you mean that a parent has a responsibility to help a child gain a good moral understanding, would you say that in all circumstances a parent has the same chance to do this?

Yes, I would Mac, and being black and poor isn't a barrier to that, regardless of what you think.

Kwin - Don't understand how you can draw the conclusion that since other sports are doing just fine in the UK that the tax structure is not an impediment to the independent contractor professional golfer. Holy cow ... the competitive environment for the best Euro golfers is not the footballers, but (primarily) the US Tour. To attract more world class players (I guarantee you that's what the ET would like to do) they better offer a product that's competitive (actually better at this point) since "earnings" are why the professional tees up and chases the little white ball (and, of course, why the top European golfers continue to gravitate to these United States).

Maybe you think a civil war would/should break out ... but ...

Super

We have come to an impasse if you are going to hold the position that for all family circumstances the parents have the same opportunities to raise their children in the most ideal manner.  In this case the ideal manner is your definition of what the expectations of a parent are.


As an attempt to get you to think about what you are saying I will offer the most basic refute I can think of.  If a family is single parent then possible total parenting hours have been halved.  Would you agree with that?

Mac, neither you or I are parents, and probably never likely to be, so let's just drop this, you know no more about being a parent than I do.

I do however, by the virtue of being older, probably know a lot more single parents than you do.

As I said earlier Shotrock, "My mistake for ever complimenting Finchem in the first place."

Why is it that some people always take a compliment and turn round and say, "yeah, but you lot suck"? Unbelievable. I think I've said a million times that O'Grady does a terrible job, but all you guys basically say is "Europe sucks".

America has a lot to commend it but its tax system and public spend is not one of them - unless you are among the top 10% in which case you don't care.

super

Not sure you need to be a parent to understand where the discussion was going but if you no longer wish to discuss this then that is fine.

Why would I? If I wanted parenting advice or a discussion about it, you'd be the last person I ask.

You got me, I fell into the trap of another of your deliberately provocative posts designed to garner a response. You win.

Kwin - Who ever said "you lot suck"? What I will say about the ET (and every other business) is that putting your head in the sand and hoping things get better without changing your offering is no way to run a business.

I'm in the top 10% and I care.

super

I only wanted to understand your position. I think I am correct in saying you believe that all parents face the same probabilities of reaching parenting expectations regardless of family circumstances. If that is a fair description of your beliefs then the conversation was worthwhile.