Ireland where to from here?

by Submachine Mon 24 Nov 2014, 4:57 pm

First topic message reminder :

So I’ve been thinking about New Ireland and the way we've changed in the last year. We're now all about the trusting the systems, the player next to you, sticking with the strategy and never letting the heads drop. We have always worried when a couple of our front liners have been unavailable that standards would drop but O'Driscolls absence was hardly noted in this series. Yes he would have made a difference defensively in that channel on Saturday but Ireland adapted to his absence and put extra bodies out there to help Henshaw through.
The way forward it would seem is to have a squad of around 40 players coming in to training camps etc and knowing the systems plays, calls, running lines and each other inside out. The left field call of Henshaw/Payne centre partnership, Ruddock at 7 and Felix Jones at 23 prove that doing the work in the classroom is very important to Joe. On paper there may be better alternatives but the coach like the cogs in his machine to be interchangeable. I don't think anyone will argue that TOD is a much better openside with one arm tied behind his back than Rhyss Ruddock will ever be but obviously on the training ground and in the classroom Joe the bigger picture.
But, will this new machine like approach eventually like all machines result in a break down? We have had a distinct lack of invention in our back line especially. Maybe that’s the next part of the plan. Work to a simple strategy to begin with. Let everyone perform their job and build consistency. With that consistency now there (7 wins in a row) will we now try to add a bit more flair?

I've tried to go through our pool of players assuming no injuries and come up with viable teams playing in their (mostly) correct positions. I think you could easily swap out 4/5 of the first team with players from the third team and not have a huge drop off in quality except 9, 10 and O'Connell. My 6th team has full internationals in there Like McLoughlin and Bent. That’s a decent pool of players and a lot of quality

We've now got the coach. We have the tactics. We have the players.
Here’s looking forward 2015.

Fullback
Rob Kearney, Felix Jones, Stuart Olding, Darragh Leader, Tiernan O’Halloran
Right Wing
Tommy Bowe, Andrew Trimble, Dave Kearney, Fergus McFadden, Andrew Conway
Outside Centre
Jared Payne, Darren Cave, Brendan Macken, Dave McSharry
Inside Centre
Robbie Henshaw, Gordon D'Arcy, Luke Marshall, Stuart McCloskey, Noel Reid
Left wing
Simon Zebo, Keith Earls, Craig Gilroy, Luke Fitzgerald, Darragh Fanning
Outhalf
Johnny Sexton, Ian Madigan, Ian Keatley, Paddy Jackson, JJ Hanrahan
Scrumhalf
Conor Murray, Eoin Reddan, Kieran Marmion, Paul Marshall, Isaac Boss, Luke McGrath

Number Eight
Jamie Heaslip, Robin Copeland, Jordi Murphy, Roger Wilson, Jack Conan, Eoin McKeown
Openside
Sean O’Brien, Chris Henry, Tommy O'Donnell, Dominic Ryan, Willie Faloon
Blindside
Peter O'Mahony, Rhys Ruddock, Robbie Diack, Paddy Butler, Kevin McLaughlin
Second row
Paul O'Connell, Devin Toner, Iain Henderson, Dan Tuohy, Dave Foley, Donnacha Ryan, Mick McCarthy, Billy Holland, Lewis Stevenson, Alan O'Connor
Tighthead
Mike Ross, Martin Moore, Nathan White, Rodney Ah You, Declan Fitzpatrick, Stephen Archer
Hooker
Rory Best, Sean Cronin, Richardt Strauss, Rob Herring, Duncan Casey, Damien Varley, Mike Sherry
Loosehead
Cian Healy, Jack McGrath, Dave Kilcoyne, James Cronin, Denis Buckley, Michael Bent

Could a MOD please neaten up the formatting on my list?

Done- but I removed the guys who have as much chance of an Ireland call-up as one of us!

by brennomac Tue 25 Nov 2014, 5:43 pm

A RWC 31-strong panel - split 18-13 between forwards and backs based on current form - and currently injured players who will be hopefully coming back fit and ready.

15 (2) - Kearney, Jones (also covers 14/11)
11/14 (3) - Trimble, Bowe, Zebo/Earls/Gilroy (Jones can also cover wing)
12/13 (3)- Henshaw, Olding, Payne/Darcy/Earls (Madigan can also cover 12, Payne can cover 15)
10 (2) - Sexton, Madigan
9 (3) - Murray, Reddan, Marmion
8 (1) - Heaslip (POM also covers 8)
6/7 (4) - O'Mahony, O'Brien, Ruddock, O'Donnell/Dom Ryan/Donnacha Ryan/Henry
4/5 (4) - O'Connell, Toner, Foley, Henderson (also covers 6)
3 (3) - Ross, Moore, White
2 (3) - Best, Cronin, Strauss/Casey
1 (3) - Healy, McGrath, Cronin/Kilcoyne

Lot depends on whether Schmidt will take six props - or will he leave one LH at home as injury cover giving him an extra option in second or back row, or an extra back
Players like Madigan, O'Mahony, Henderson, Jones, Payne who can cover at least two positions hugely valuable
Re wingers, think Zebo has done more good stuff than bad stuff against SA and Aus - so he is front-runner ahead of likes of Gilroy, Earls, D Kearney, McFadden

Early days, but if RWC was starting in a couple of weeks, that's my 31

by Sin é Tue 25 Nov 2014, 6:20 pm

thebandwagonsociety wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Bathman_in_London wrote:From here... Back to back 6N wins and then progressing the furthest of the 6N teams in the WC I would think. As someone mentioned above keeping Sexton injury free will be key, but with players fit and firing, having one of the best coaches around can only mean success.

I think Paul O'Connell is our most important player. I think Madigan could do a job for Sexton (and I don't think people are giving enough credit to Murray for taking pressure off Sexton, but I don't see anyone close to being able to do a job for Paul O'Connell.

Kiss is a top class coach but I think there are question marks over Simon Easterby as forwards coach.

I'm going to bite. While nobody is close to being a like for like replacement for POC, there are still D Ryan, Henderson and Tuohy(?) out there injured who could come back in. Those being injured makes us appreciate POC that bit more (especially when McCarthy is spotted on the bench ffs!).

People would have said that BOD was the most important player, but get the players up to speed and next thing Henshaw, Payne et al are playing OC and I (personally) am not thinking during the game how we are missing BOD.

But we are a collapsed scrum away from a crocked Ross, Marty is only young and is injured. That position to me is the biggest concern.

And don't get me wrong, I love to POC on the field and many prayers to the man above that there are many games ahead of him at the highest level, but TH is the biggest concern. I'd reckon after hysteria would subside, the squad would cope with injuries to LH, hooker, lock, backrow, scrumhalf, outhalf, centres, wings and full back.

You are only looking at the skills, technicalities more than the leadership and everything else that POC brings to the game. I've never though that BOD would be as big a loss as people expected him to be (mainly because he isn't the same player he was in his pomp).

As for POC, we've seen how poor Ireland has been without him with all of the above mentioned replacements. I don't think its a total coincidence that Ireland are playing so much better since he has come back from missing nearly 2 years of international rugby.

Where Ireland are missing BOD is at the breakdown & defence. I don't think either Payne or Henshaw are much help there yet.

by thebandwagonsociety Tue 25 Nov 2014, 6:25 pm

True - and at least Henshaw and Payne both have functional left shoulders and pace to cover the outside.There was a reason why BOD always had to rush in and part of it was because he couldn't cover space at speed.

by Sin é Tue 25 Nov 2014, 6:29 pm

thebandwagonsociety wrote:True - and at least Henshaw and Payne both have functional left shoulders and pace to cover the outside.There was a reason why BOD always had to rush in and part of it was because he couldn't cover space at speed.

Yes, thats the main plus for the centres - they have good pace. But I think BOD is a huge loss at the breakdown.

by The Great Aukster Tue 25 Nov 2014, 9:08 pm

brennomac wrote:A RWC 31-strong panel - split 18-13 between forwards and backs based on current form - and currently injured players who will be hopefully coming back fit and ready.

15 (2) - Kearney, Jones (also covers 14/11)
11/14 (3) - Trimble, Bowe, Zebo/Earls/Gilroy (Jones can also cover wing)
12/13 (3)- Henshaw, Olding, Payne/Darcy/Earls (Madigan can also cover 12, Payne can cover 15)
10 (2) - Sexton, Madigan
9 (3) - Murray, Reddan, Marmion
8 (1) - Heaslip (POM also covers 8)
6/7 (4) - O'Mahony, O'Brien, Ruddock, O'Donnell/Dom Ryan/Donnacha Ryan/Henry
4/5 (4) - O'Connell, Toner, Foley, Henderson (also covers 6)
3 (3) - Ross, Moore, White
2 (3) - Best, Cronin, Strauss/Casey
1 (3) - Healy, McGrath, Cronin/Kilcoyne

Lot depends on whether Schmidt will take six props - or will he leave one LH at home as injury cover giving him an extra option in second or back row, or an extra back
Players like Madigan, O'Mahony, Henderson, Jones, Payne who can cover at least two positions hugely valuable
Re wingers, think Zebo has done more good stuff than bad stuff against SA and Aus - so he is front-runner ahead of likes of Gilroy, Earls, D Kearney, McFadden

Early days, but if RWC was starting in a couple of weeks, that's my 31

Good squad Brennomac. Is it 31 players though - I thought they were sticking with the 30 man squads despite the change to the bench?

Either way I think Joe will have to go with 18 forwards. An almost fit Healy would be hard to send home if he couldn't make the bench for one game, so unless White is a realistic stand-in at LH I suspect Joe will have three props for each side.

by Baz1974 Wed 26 Nov 2014, 12:52 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:
brennomac wrote:A RWC 31-strong panel - split 18-13 between forwards and backs based on current form - and currently injured players who will be hopefully coming back fit and ready.

15 (2) - Kearney, Jones (also covers 14/11)
11/14 (3) - Trimble, Bowe, Zebo/Earls/Gilroy (Jones can also cover wing)
12/13 (3)- Henshaw, Olding, Payne/Darcy/Earls (Madigan can also cover 12, Payne can cover 15)
10 (2) - Sexton, Madigan
9 (3) - Murray, Reddan, Marmion
8 (1) - Heaslip (POM also covers 8)
6/7 (4) - O'Mahony, O'Brien, Ruddock, O'Donnell/Dom Ryan/Donnacha Ryan/Henry
4/5 (4) - O'Connell, Toner, Foley, Henderson (also covers 6)
3 (3) - Ross, Moore, White
2 (3) - Best, Cronin, Strauss/Casey
1 (3) - Healy, McGrath, Cronin/Kilcoyne

Lot depends on whether Schmidt will take six props - or will he leave one LH at home as injury cover giving him an extra option in second or back row, or an extra back
Players like Madigan, O'Mahony, Henderson, Jones, Payne who can cover at least two positions hugely valuable
Re wingers, think Zebo has done more good stuff than bad stuff against SA and Aus - so he is front-runner ahead of likes of Gilroy, Earls, D Kearney, McFadden

Early days, but if RWC was starting in a couple of weeks, that's my 31

Good squad Brennomac. Is it 31 players though - I thought they were sticking with the 30 man squads despite the change to the bench?

Either way I think Joe will have to go with 18 forwards. An almost fit Healy would be hard to send home if he couldn't make the bench for one game, so unless White is a realistic stand-in at LH I suspect Joe will have three props for each side.

Other Media outlets seem to be talking about 31 man squads so I'm assuming they know something I don't and it is going to be 31.
Hard to argue with that squad. If Donncha Ryan gets back to fitness and form I'd expect him to be there ahead of Foley.
I'm still confused with the Felix Jones inclusion, given the amount of cover for fullback elsewhere in the squad. Schmidt seems to like him but we'll see what happens in the nations if we have more of our 3 quarters fit.

by Rory_Gallagher Wed 26 Nov 2014, 8:48 pm

I think we need to find other ball carrying options apart from SOB and Healy, as both are frequently injured. POM is a very good ball carrier, but he is more of a luxury in open play as his best games are always when he is doing the donkey work. He can certainly be used out wide though. Henderson is one player who will improve the carrying situation immensely.

I still think we lack firepower from number 8 honestly, Heaslip may be consistent but he still doesn't offer that much going forward anymore. We need someone who can break the gain line on a regular basis, and I am not sure Heaslip is able to. It is a bit irrelevant though as Heaslip owns the 8 shirt and will do for the foreseeable future. So we need to look elsewhere.

Which leaves, in the back row, a carrying option to come in at open side. In which case TOD is the best carrying option available, and adds a lot of balance and familiarity. I think he deserves a shot.

by Marshes Thu 27 Nov 2014, 1:22 am

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I still think we lack firepower from number 8 honestly, Heaslip may be consistent but he still doesn't offer that much going forward anymore. We need someone who can break the gain line on a regular basis, and I am not sure Heaslip is able to. It is a bit irrelevant though as Heaslip owns the 8 shirt and will do for the foreseeable future. So we need to look elsewhere.

How has Copeland been doing at Munster? Was class at the blues last year, great carrier, but have not seen as much of him this year. Would like to have some real competition for Heaslip at 8 too, keep him honest.

by **rodders** Thu 27 Nov 2014, 3:48 pm

Where to from here? I'd say next up is to pick up a GS and sort out the set piece en route to a RWC final against NZ.

We'd be underdogs in that one but you have to be positive I suppose. If we can kick in bahind Savea and put pressure on the half backs I'd be quietly confident there.

by **profitius** Thu 27 Nov 2014, 6:19 pm

3 main areas to improve are scrums, lineouts and attack.

- McGrath isn't particularly great but holds his own and will improve. Healy also to come back and James Cronin (who could put McGrath under pressure). So Loosehead is sorted.
Tighthead remains the problem area but maybe not as problematic as we think. It just happened that Ross was coming back from injury, White and Moore were injured, Archer and Declan Fitzpatrick were also lacking gametime due to injury and suspension. Ah Now was the only man fully fit! So the landscape could change by the 6 nations and world cup. Not forgetting Furlong either.
- The lineouts were better under Plumtree so thats an area of concern if Easterby is the problem. Best and Cronin are also not great with the darts.
- The attack quality depends on the centers. Schmidt cannot justify starting D'Arcy if there isn't a big improvement in performance. A more creative center to partner Henshaw would be my preferred option. Speaking of Henshaw, he looks a good find!

by FecklessRogue Thu 27 Nov 2014, 7:56 pm

If the scrum and lineout get sorted our back play will improve straight away. According to Sexton there were plenty of attacking moves from the backs practiced but the set piece malfunctioned, putting them under pressure and at that stage the best option is to kick for territory. And those set pieces should improve in the 6 Nations. Best and Ross were only back from injury and were never going to be at the top of their game. Sexton also said this about Zebo's pass. "You can't curb the attacking instincts of a player like Simon. That was almost a moment of genius". I'm glad he said that.

Winning the 6 Nations is definitely doable. On making a RWC final; people are very quickly forgetting just how poor South Africa were. With some help from us admittedly but they were not at the top of their game. Also Cheika was right when he said Australia were a bit unlucky to lose to us. The winning penalty was a very dodgy call from the ref. And people are also REALLY underestimating Argentina. If we beat France, a big if, Argentina is not a gimme at all.

by aucklandlaurie Thu 27 Nov 2014, 8:38 pm

rodders wrote:Where to from here? I'd say next up is to pick up a GS and sort out the set piece en route to a RWC final against NZ.

We'd be underdogs in that one but you have to be positive I suppose. If we can kick in bahind Savea and put pressure on the half backs I'd be quietly confident there.

Im trying to imagine you guys if Ireland beat the ABs in a RWC final.

by Taylorman Thu 27 Nov 2014, 8:49 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
rodders wrote:Where to from here? I'd say next up is to pick up a GS and sort out the set piece en route to a RWC final against NZ.

We'd be underdogs in that one but you have to be positive I suppose. If we can kick in bahind Savea and put pressure on the half backs I'd be quietly confident there.

Im trying to imagine you guys if Ireland beat the ABs in a RWC final.

I'm trying to imagine Molly Malones on Courtenay if that happens, let alone what Ireland itself would look like from the moon - a few shifting shapes and colours I'm sure!.

Imagine having the first win in over a century in THAT match. Would just about make up for it all I'd say. Coool...!

by aucklandlaurie Thu 27 Nov 2014, 9:02 pm

I think the 100 years bit would be rapidly erased from Irish memory.

by Taylorman Thu 27 Nov 2014, 9:17 pm

FecklessRogue wrote:
Sexton also said this about Zebo's pass. "You can't curb the attacking instincts of a player like Simon. That was almost a moment of genius". I'm glad he said that.

He's right, but it's more about culture than genius. If that type of play is encouraged at the lower levels it permeates though more.

Our SXV sides strongly encourage natural instincts to be expressed as much as possible-particularly in the backs- because that's where the true X factor properties exist. Players that act purely out of instinct allow their subconscious to run free and draw on some skill or action that's been embedded in them from the past.

That's often where sides with a large focus on structure or mitigating risk lose opportunities. If the structured thinking is allowed to limit or 'block' individual creativity then there's less instinct allowed in play, and less so called 'genius'.

A bit like how Michael Jordan had those amazing runs and could stay 'in the zone' much longer. After a 20-30 point blitz of 3 pointers, dunks and all out chaos scoring from everything he did, even he wouldn't remember what he just did afterwards. All you can do is set these players up and encourage it, and let it happen.

by **rodders** Thu 27 Nov 2014, 9:42 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
rodders wrote:Where to from here? I'd say next up is to pick up a GS and sort out the set piece en route to a RWC final against NZ.

We'd be underdogs in that one but you have to be positive I suppose. If we can kick in bahind Savea and put pressure on the half backs I'd be quietly confident there.

Im trying to imagine you guys if Ireland beat the ABs in a RWC final.

Gees imagine drico made a comeback and scored the winner too! Smile

by Taylorman Thu 27 Nov 2014, 9:48 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
I think the 100 years bit would be rapidly erased from Irish memory.

109 actually... Run

by aucklandlaurie Thu 27 Nov 2014, 9:50 pm

rodders wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
rodders wrote:Where to from here? I'd say next up is to pick up a GS and sort out the set piece en route to a RWC final against NZ.

We'd be underdogs in that one but you have to be positive I suppose. If we can kick in bahind Savea and put pressure on the half backs I'd be quietly confident there.

Im trying to imagine you guys if Ireland beat the ABs in a RWC final.

Gees imagine drico made a comeback and scored the winner too!

Cant imagine that Rodders, Jonathan Sexton could very well see the first Irish victory over the All Blacks, but it was never going to happen while a certain player was out side him in the number 13 jersey.

by bedfordwelsh Thu 27 Nov 2014, 9:52 pm

So then guys after what was a very successful AI series for you lot(best out of the NH and shame you not getting a crack at the ABs) do you see yourselves as favourites for the 6 Nations.

Would anything less than a GS be seen as a failure or would the championship we seen as successful given that Slams are not as easy to come by as some think.

by **rodders** Thu 27 Nov 2014, 10:04 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:So then guys after what was a very successful AI series for you lot(best out of the NH and shame you not getting a crack at the ABs) do you see yourselves as favourites for the 6 Nations.

Would anything less than a GS be seen as a failure or would the championship we seen as successful given that Slams are not as easy to come by as some think.

No anything less than a slam would not be seen as a failure - every game is tough and building for the RWC cup is more important than the slam - but yes I think we have to be one of the favourites for the title on form.

by theslosty Thu 27 Nov 2014, 10:07 pm

It's an odd numbered year so I do believe we are favourites but I would be happy with 4 wins as long as we beat England and France. Others may disagree but I'm more interested in performances than results during the 6N.

We had a very successful AI series but anyone who was watching will know we still have a lot to work on, SA underestimated us and were a little below par and we were perhaps a tad fortunate to nick it against the Wallabies.

Only will I be happy when we reach the level of rugby Schmidt had Leinster playing at during their glory years Very Happy

by bedfordwelsh Thu 27 Nov 2014, 10:23 pm

I know your away to us have you got England and France at home plus who else?

by Taylorman Thu 27 Nov 2014, 11:12 pm

rodders wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:So then guys after what was a very successful AI series for you lot(best out of the NH and shame you not getting a crack at the ABs) do you see yourselves as favourites for the 6 Nations.

Would anything less than a GS be seen as a failure or would the championship we seen as successful given that Slams are not as easy to come by as some think.

No anything less than a slam would not be seen as a failure - every game is tough and building for the RWC cup is more important than the slam - but yes I think we have to be one of the favourites for the title on form.

On form? absolutely- 2014 and tours/ AI's NZ and Ireland are 1 and 2. Both won their respective championships and both have only had one loss all year. No one else has done that. One could (and has) argued that Ireland had the easiest of the tours but AI form makes up for some of that.

by SecretFly Fri 28 Nov 2014, 10:10 am

On form..........................?

Who cares about form. On form, we shouldn't have won the last 6N. On form we still might come 4th or 5th in the next one.

Form is bunk unless you're in a mood to pander to it. We've pandered to our bad form over the last number of years. Games we could have won, we lost anyway because we had the excuse of being in bad form, being in a bad place, playing bad, being coached bad etc, etc....

Let's just try the one game at a time approach, which can also win things but it doesn't approach the task with any degree of birth-right attached to it. Even if in some weird future we were 1st ranked team in the world for 6 months or more, I still wouldn't like Ireland being cocky. And no, I don't believe being cocky helps the winning process or the mentality of continued winning. All it does is create enemies and a set of rival fans who think we're all up our own asses, which we would be if we became cocky Wink

Em....................... but don't think too graphically about that allusion or your eyes will water Whistle

.....

Oh and welcome back the wandering stranger, Rodders.

by **rodders** Fri 28 Nov 2014, 11:13 am

SecretFly wrote:
Oh and welcome back the wandering stranger, Rodders.

Oh...I hadn't even realised I'd been gone .... Cool

I don't think we are cocky - in fact the opposite, I think its been the pragmatism and work ethic - the acceptance of our shortcomings by the coaches and players that has got us where we are. We don't have the size,athleticism or pace in some positions as SA, England, Wales, Australia, France or NZ.

But we can negate this with being clever - smart work at the breakdown, using the kicking game, great defence, workrate and fitness - some innovative work of the maul and being clinical - low mistakes and penalties....not entirely unlike the ABs but without the offloading ability and skills maybe. We've also great mix of youth and experience and very good half backs and that goes a long way. O'Connells role has been much understated, as the focus has been on Brian and Joe and have also been very impressed with Kearney, Sexton, O'Mahoney and Heaslips leadership and when you have Best there two that is is very good spine for the young guys to slot in to.

It won't be enough to win the RWC but there is 10 months to develop further and on current form you'd say that the current tactics and approach will probably be enough for another 6N title unless France can find their A games and/or England and Wales can find a plan B.

The 2 key things that I see, similar to Leinster a few seasons ago, is the ability to adapt and also being able to close out tight games under pressure. That makes a side very hard to beat....

by brennomac Fri 28 Nov 2014, 11:39 am

bedfordwelsh wrote:I know your away to us have you got England and France at home plus who else?

Engand and France home, Wales, italy, Scotland all away

by SecretFly Fri 28 Nov 2014, 11:49 am

Were you gone or was I just being blind?

Don't answer that if it's the latter. I don't take easily to criticism!

France even on bad form will give us another roller coaster - we'll never make those guys think they are beneath us in quality. They have contempt for the very idea.
England will be fancying to steal 3rd off us and will attempt to run us off our feet just like the Aussies tried.
Wales.................................... Gatland will have a Plan C for us. He's so intent on saving it that he's not even showing it during this AI season. Gatland doesn't like being made a fool of. He needs to re-win the BODGate trophy that we took from him last time we met.

It'll be tough if any of those three sides have ANY genuine goals for the WC. We can get better,yes, but those three sides can get much better from where they currently are. They have more potential to improve in quantifiable terms than we have. We have the ability to consolidate but if we improve by the same factor as Wales and France need to improve then that would have us sitting on the AB's shoulders. That ain't gonna happen in 6 or 10 months.

And none of that even mentions Scotland who are the real dark horse arriving with their new jockey.

We have our chance to win but we're the biggest target on the board and five sides are gunning for us.

by **rodders** Fri 28 Nov 2014, 2:43 pm

SecretFly wrote:Were you gone or was I just being blind?

Don't answer that if it's the latter. I don't take easily to criticism!

No I was gone until I was sure that either Ulster would win the RCC or Ireland would win the RWC.... 1 out of 2 aint bad I suppose.... Cool

by **rodders** Fri 28 Nov 2014, 3:06 pm

SecretFly wrote:France even on bad form will give us another roller coaster - we'll never make those guys think they are beneath us in quality. They have contempt for the very idea.

And that is to our advantage - in fact they aren't beneath us in quality - not player for player anyways. In fact, in many positions, we are arguably inferior to all the 6N teams bar Italy - but thats the beauty of rugby - the better prepared team and better tactics can win the day - sure Munster won 2 heinos FFS Smile

.

Joe, who is the chosen one btw, has created a well oiled machine far greater than the some of its parts, where the systems matter more than the personnel.

I don't think we are the finished article though - Henshaw has been a revelation but is only starting out, Earls hasn't played yet for Schmidt, McFadden and Trimble are to return - McCloskey, Marshall or Olding could yet be the foil at 12 alongside Henshaw. Payne is just finding his feet. Madigan is excelling as a super sub, Zebo is improving his all round game and Murray and Sexton are becoming one of the worlds best halfback combinations.

Kearney, Best and Ross will get better with more games. O'Brien and Henry are to return. Stander is to qualify and Henderson, Touhy and Donnacha Ryan will bolster the tight 5 along with Healy and Moore. There's a lot of competition across the board.

I think there is a huge amount of scope to improve and thats exactly where you'd want to be 12 months out from the RWC - that said I remember 2006/7 all to well, but I don't think the team will lose the run of themselves this time -EOS had no depth to replace out of sorts players either unlike Joe, so don't see history repeating itself.

by Marshes Fri 28 Nov 2014, 3:41 pm

rodders wrote:
SecretFly wrote:France even on bad form will give us another roller coaster - we'll never make those guys think they are beneath us in quality. They have contempt for the very idea.

And that is to our advantage - in fact they aren't beneath us in quality - not player for player anyways. In fact, in many positions, we are arguably inferior to all the 6N teams bar Italy - but thats the beauty of rugby - the better prepared team and better tactics can win the day - sure Munster won 2 heinos FFS .

I wouldn't say it many positions. Healy, Best, O Connell, SOB, POM, Murray, Sexton, Bowe, and Kearney and are arguably in the top two in their positions out of the 6N teams. Payne and Henshaw looked really promising, and Heaslip, Trimble/Zebo wouldn't be too far off either. I think our problem has more so been getting the most out of players capable of winning championships with their clubs, and falling short. Maybe you were just setting up the dig at Munster Wink

But you are right about the rest, lots of improving to do but from a relatively strong position, very encouraging!

by **rodders** Fri 28 Nov 2014, 4:15 pm

No maybe that point is exaggerated but I suppose if you look around Europe this season - I don't think we have many players setting the world alight, compared to some of the other sides - I wouldn't have picked the results coming into November but it shows how good a coach Joe is both at the individual level of getting players to understand their roles and as a collective - doing analysis on the opposition and coming out with effect tactics.

The individual form of players like Kearney, Bowe, Sexton etc. came from nowhere really if you look at their recent games for their clubs.

Lots to work on though - the set piece primarily - is it a dip due to Easterby coming in? Also we can't disount the 2 week break between the SA and Wallabies games. The other top 6 had a tougher run and might benefit in the long run - or maybe we will but there is a question mark there whether would we have held out against Australia at the end if we'd have backed up after the SA game?

by SecretFly Fri 28 Nov 2014, 4:35 pm

The sense is growing Internationally and even amongst ourselves that Schmidt is the 'genius' and he's proving it by turning pretty normal players into giant killers of sorts.

Well yeah, I'll buy only so much of that.... and not all that much. As I said a few weeks back, Yes, we're lucky to have Schmidt but he also knows how we Irish have helped him rise and rise as a world renowned coach. It's fair to say he built most of that reputation here - using mostly Irish players. He came because he liked the attitude of those players.

He came to Leinster because he knew in his heart he had the raw resources to give it a shot as a Head Coach with Leinster. They'd already proved worth without his help. He probably did a Schmidt-scan and knew he could extract even more from them, but he was also certain he had those necessary raw resources to begin with.

Irish players may not be as showy or slick, or natural instinctive offloaders and weavers, but they have something that they've always had. Balls. Lots of them.
Schmidt recognises that. They also have a bullish determination that actually and ironically pushes through the maths and diagrams and Schmidt sciences, and still uses sheer brute intensity to get a job done. Behind all the science are players rooted in Ireland's old instincts of fighting through their limitations to get a result. They've been consistent performers in 6Ns with so many 2nds and slogging it out with the big two of France and England for number of games won in totality - Joe wasn't around. They also have a pretty respectable (dare I say it impressive) record in European Club rugby - Joe wasn't around for all of it.

Now that they are no longer limited in the strategies and practical coaching department (something every and any International side requires, even the ABs) they are beginning to enjoy the fruits of their own inner mental strengths added to now with some Schmidt refinement, clinical demands and gameplans.

When Kidney was operating, many of us were saying our players were good enough but the coaching system wasn't. Indeed, they often proved good enough even when playing some very bad tactical gameplans and could still pull off some surprising and interesting stats like top try scoring. They had the natural ammo in players but they didn't have the wisdom or disciplin of joined up gameplans.

Joe has proven to be a very very good coach - I'm not in a hurry to lose him at all, but the proving of the theory that it was mostly him and very little of us (Irish players) will come when he eventually does leave us and tries it all over again with a new team. If he gets the ABs, he'll have an easy journey Wink

If he gets anyone else, the test will begin.

by **profitius** Fri 28 Nov 2014, 5:16 pm

Ireland have good players too. Ulster, Munster and Leinster have been among the top 8 sides in Europe over the last number of years and Connacht are catching up now.
All we needed was someone to get the best out of the players. The best way to gauge that is not so much winning or losing but consistency.

The most important match to win in the 6 nations is against France. A win there should finally clear the mental blockage the players have against France. A win will make it 4 games unbeaten against France which would damage their traditional confidence when playing Ireland.

I think the 6 nations will again come down to points difference. Wales will be at their best for the 6 nations, England will be strong and Scotland will be tougher.

by **rodders** Fri 28 Nov 2014, 5:30 pm

SecretFly wrote:The sense is growing Internationally and even amongst ourselves that Schmidt is the 'genius' and he's proving it by turning pretty normal players into giant killers of sorts.

Ah here now fly, that's not quite what I said. What I said is that we don't necessarily have better players than the sides we are beating - which over the last 12 months has been everyone bar NZ and England, and those losses were by one score - and possibly better performances than most of the wins. That's a pretty impressive return given the lengthy period of underperformance from 2010 -2013. What's more impressive, and why Schmidt deserves so much credit is that these results and performances is that in large its been irrespective of the personnel.

Look at the turnover of players - King Brian has come and gone, his trusty sidekick flash Gordon has been in and out - Healy and SOB, our best ball carriers - in and out comes Henry, then Ruddock - Trimble comes in for Bowe and was player of the season, Bowe comes back and is back to his best, average Dave for Zebo - no excuses and the performance never drops. No other Irish coach has managed this, a few injuries and it all goes to pot.

No credit where its due - Joe is greatest honoury Irish fella since that welsh bloke who got rid of the snakes.

by Sin é Fri 28 Nov 2014, 5:55 pm

ROG has some interesting stuff to say in his column today. He has a big question mark about whether Healy will come back from his injury. A good read.

Ronan O'Gara wrote:A call from Examiner Towers on Tuesday. What are you rabbiting on about this week? Presume you’re looking back at Saturday?

No I’m looking forward. Six Nations. World Cup. With intrigue and fascination.

Don’t you have to look back to look forward? (Note: He’s from Kerry).

Not too much. Everyone in that Joe Schmidt Irish squad is looking forward now. In every sense of the term. And there’s quite a few outside the November gathering looking forward with even greater relish.

Keith Earls will be back on a pitch near you in the new year. Don’t forget Keith Earls. At worst Earlsie will be going to the World Cup because of his versatility. I think he might be Ireland’s No. 13.

What’s established is that Ireland is very strong at half-back, and in the back three — irrespective of who plays, because the choice is as broad as it is deep. What has yet to be nailed down is who will be playing in the centre.

We are all intrigued to see how Earls develops under Joe Schmidt, who he’s never played for. He is the one person who has schooled Brian O’Driscoll in training throughout his career. He has the speed, the agility, the balance, the step, the acceleration. Defensively in the 13 channel, it’s as much about technique as it is size.

Many in Munster, never mind the wider rugby public, remain to be convinced of what I am proposing here. Those who have trained and played with this lad every day do not. For you anoraks, cast your mind back to his Munster-Dragons try at Musgrave Park in 2008. The flick-up. Class. I am one of Earls’ biggest supporters because when you see what he can do on a training pitch, there is no doubt it will be carried onto the pitch once he can get a solid run without injuries.

He’s been wracked by injuries and self-doubt. That is seen as a weakness, but it’s also a potential strength, because when he gets there and retains his sense of self-worth, he’ll be there for good.

You have to be confident about Earls’ international future when you see what Schmidt has done with players in terms of maximising what they can achieve. Take Andrew Trimble for instance. He’s gone from steady to very good with Ulster, from average with Ireland to excelling in green. Look at the difference in Robbie Henshaw from the Australia game 12 months ago to last Saturday. If he continues that development — and I don’t want to be putting too much pressure on those young shoulders — we have a fine prospect on our hands. He has that work-like-a-dog mentality, the way he got stuck into Adam Ashley-Cooper last weekend off the ball. Chipping away all day at him. That’s a great trait to have.

People still underestimate Gordon D’Arcy, even at this advanced stage of his career. But he is a man who can match his southern hemisphere equivalents physically. I also ran into Stuart Olding in the tunnel before last Saturday’s game, and was gob-smacked at the size of him. Also look at Ian Madigan’s graph under Schmidt.

Henshaw. D’Arcy. Olding. Madigan. Trimble. The coach is the common denominator in their surging graph.

Johnny Sexton has said it to me — nines and 10s are made look better because they don’t have to fret over anyone else: They know the rest are doing their job, and know their detail inside out. That’s usually a good chunk of the 10’s job, patrolling the forwards around the pitch. Not now.

Earls should be back in January. If he gets a clear run, there’s only one way his trajectory is going too.

Donal Lenihan expressed a view on TV afterwards that I was pondering myself: I hope the Irish set-up does not try to suppress Simon Zebo’s joie de vivre, that instinctive offload game which some misguided souls claim cost a try for Nick Phipps last Saturday (There was a bouncing ball and four missed tackles afterwards).

It struck me his celebration for the opening try was pretty muted. For Zebo anyway. If that was at Thomond Park, he’d have been around with the hands up, egging on the crowd. Supporters are only dying to get behind him. They want a maverick, they think he’s special.

Zebo thinks he’s special too. He thinks he’s LeBron James, and he thrives on that. People need to understand and appreciate different culture. His father is from Martinique, not Ballydehob. If playing to the crowd gets his juices flowing, then I’m all for it. This guy is good stuff.

I can understand if there is a management doubt there at the moment because for the first 12 months I knew him I had no time for Zebo either — I thought he was lazy, soft, and weak. But then when you take him under your wing, he grows. He’s not a fella who likes the cane. He listens, but he’ll test you to the max. He walks away from you and you’re wondering whether this fella is tuned into what you are saying at all. But he’s got it. And that pace of his is rapid. He is worth love-bombing.

I chatted with Tommy Bowe after the game. We were both thinking the same thing. That intercept try and the awful fear that he’d be run down by a flying Australia winger.

Running out into open space — for a winger that’s a thrilling and a frightening prospect. He was saying to me afterwards, the last time he had that opportunity against the same opposition in the World Cup in Auckland, he got run down and caught. And there’s nothing worse for a winger than getting caught in that situation.

Watching it back on video, he was so nervous about getting caught that he didn’t relax into his stride pattern at all. He was grimacing. That slows you up. The sports scientists say you are supposed to let your jaw hang loose in those pace situations. Watch the sprinters.

It’s like me missing a kick in front of the posts — that’s what he is there for — to finish. What are wingers picked for? Otherwise you are tagged as a workhorse and no winger wants to be a workhorse. Tommy may be 30 now but he’s still doing what he’s always done — delivering big moments and crucial tries. Psychologically that intercept was very important. Tommy’s handbrake is off now.

By the Six Nations, Joe and the rest of us will have a clearer indication of the wellbeing of some other absentees. At our strongest, Cian Healy, Donncha Ryan and Sean O’Brien also start, the key point being a deepening bench. You have genuine leaders in Best, O’Connell and Heaslip. And Peter O’Mahony has propelled himself into the realm of seasoned international already. The term ‘world-class’ is overused, but O’Mahony is well on his way to that plateau.

O’Brien’s shoulder injury may be garden variety, but Cian Healy has a road ahead of him. For an explosive loose-head to rip the hamstring off the bone while running up a pitch, you have to be fearful about how he’ll come back. But Jack McGrath has done very well, and Dave Kilcoyle was itching for action the last day, he was sitting right beside me at the Aviva last Saturday.

Conor Murray is looking composed (except when Nick Phipps is chirping away at him). But he’s yet to explode, form-wise. It will happen. He’ll only be happy when he’s the best player on the pitch, and I don’t think he’s reached that stage in his head yet. The best compliment I can give him is that I always knew he would accelerate his development to this point.

Munster don’t have a lot of players on international duty, but the great thing for the province is that those who are have become key to Ireland — Murray, O’Mahony and Paul O’Connell. Leaders are key. So is the X Factor. Zebo delivers that for both his province and his country.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/columnists/ronan-ogara/ronan-ogara-a-story-about-earlsie-and-zebowe-299945.html

by Pot Hale Sat 29 Nov 2014, 11:16 am

Biltong wrote:
IL wrote:"Plucky underdogs, happy just to be here, great team spirit, there for the craic, etc." that's the road to go down for us.

Too late for that mate. You wanted to beat the Aussies and Saffers, now you have to take what comes with it.

Ah yeah, but SA were off-colour that day, and had few players missing, and it was the end of their season, and they hadn't played in the Currie Cup, and Meyer hadn't had his obligatory 19 cups of coffee to get excited in the coaches box, so it's not surprising really, like SA got an easy try at the end, and if the game had gone on for another ten minutes, who knows what might have happened?

As for Australia? Lucky bounce of the ball for ebo, Phipps was unlucky with his pass, and that last penalty should never have been.....

In fact, I'm not sure if Ireland actually won those games really.....

by SecretFly Sun 30 Nov 2014, 3:15 pm

Exactly.......... we won by virtue of JINX...and long me he support us.

by BelfastDickVet Wed 03 Dec 2014, 10:20 am

Bloody infuriated! Was on the Ireland site there, bided my time to get through to the ticket sales, finally got on selected my ticket, clicked on the continue tab and was met with an error message saying that there was a site problem and it kicked me off! I am now bottom of the que with an estimated 66 min waiting time!

by Sponsored content