Zebre V Edinburgh - 29th November

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Zebre v Edinburgh Rugby
Saturday 29th November 2014, KO 15:00 GMT
At Stadio XXV Aprile, Parma

Live on Nuvolari ( )

Referee: David Wilkinson (IRFU, 30th competition game)
Assistant Referees: Elia Rizzo, Stefano Roscini (both FIR)
Citing Commissioner: Roberto Carra (FIR)
TMO: Stefano Penne (FIR)

A. Teams:

Zebre

15 Hendrik Daniller
14 Leonardo Sarto*
13 Giulio Bisegni
12 Matteo Pratichetti
11 Giulio Toniolatti
10 Kelly Haimona
9 Brendon Leonard

8 Samuela Vunisa
7 Filippo Cristiano
6 Valerio Bernabò
5 Marco Bortolami (cap)
4 George Biagi
3 Dario Chistolini
2 Andrea Manici*
1 Andrea Lovotti*

16 Oliviero Fabiani
17 Andrea De Marchi
18 Lorenzo Romano / Luca Redolfini
19 Quintin Geldenhuys
20 Andries Van Schalkwyk / Jacopo Sarto
21 Guglielmo Palazzani
22 Luciano Orquera
23 Michele Visentin* / Giovanbattista Venditti*

Edinburgh Rugby

15            Nick McLENNAN
14            Dougie FIFE
13            Matt SCOTT
12            Andries STRAUSS
11            Tim VISSER
10            Tom HEATHCOTE
9              Sam HIDALGO-CLYNE
 
1              Rory SUTHERLAND
2              Ross FORD
3              Willem NEL
4              Ollie ATKINS
5              Ben TOOLIS
6              Mike COMAN (Captain)
7              Roddy GRANT
8              David DENTON

16            James HILTERBRAND
17            Grant SHIELLS
18            John ANDRESS
19            Fraser McKENZIE
20            Tomas LEONARDI
21            Grayson HART
22            Greig TONKS
23            Sam BEARD

B. Form - head to head:

4 Played 4
1 Wins 3
3 Losses 1
7 Tries 9
5 Conversions 8
7 Penalties 9
66 Points 88
26 Avg. Age 25


C. Form - last season:

Zebre 26 - 13 Edinburgh Rugby

Edinburgh Rugby 25 - 23 Zebre

Intelligent Waffle

This is a real opportunity for Edinburgh to pick up some momentum in the season after a good win against the Blues last week and two very winnable games against London Welsh coming up. Zebre have been pretty good this season though, a lot more competitive than previous years, and will prove a tough challenge.  I'm still not convinced Edinburgh really have turned a corner, but a win here will certainly help my opinons.

Zebre will certainly be targeting this game, although I'm not sure how many players they are likely to be without due to the International break.  Edinburgh will almost certainly be without Dickinson and Ford, although Visser should be available having only played 1 Scotland game.

18-10 zebre, 10 to go

Why bring Tonks on with just 5 mins? You put a sub on for impact

Nematode wrote:Why bring Tonks on with just 5 mins? You put a sub on for impact

Or, more accurately, why play McLennan over Tonks??

Lost 18-10.

Not even a lbp.

Depressing!

That's a bad, bad loss. Zebre have improved, but not that much.

Well that's the league season gone.

I noted from Twitter that it often went - attack, attack, attack, Strauss knock on.
Why is he playing?

AS's selection has been off par. Strauss shouldn't be playing. Also, Tonks should be starting at 10 and Cuthbert 15.

I'm sorry but you just don't play 2 average NSQ players (Strauss and McLennan) and leave (indirectly) SQ Tom Brown and Jack Cuthbert playing for club sides.

But I don't think all the problems lead to AS. Individual performances lately have been poor, notably Nel, Coman, Denton and Heathcote.

Any thoughts of a 3rd Scottish team must be rubbished until Edinburgh gets a new coach, rids players who don't deserve to be there, and makes some proper signings like Cardiff in Tuculet and Anscombe.

Time to just go out and win the Amlin or whatever it's called now then?

Thats it blown for Edinburgh, if you had won you would have had the possiblity of pushing for a Champ cup place, now it looks like along with Cardiff Blues, and Dragons and Terviso its that dreaded phrase
'time to start building for next season'.

While I wanted Edinburgh to be pushing the middle of the table, in a way as a neutral I am glad to see Zebre win (as i'm sure everyone else was when they beat Ulster). Like to see them improving and even leapfrogging Dragons.

Away to Dragond and then the Treviso christmas double header could actually see them string together 4 wins in a row and sit midtable, that would be good for them.

Well better Italian teams has got to be good for the league, shame they have to improve at Edinburgh's expense though. Ulster lost out there as well remember and probably won't be the only other team to do so this year.

Edinburgh are still inconsistent, the table does not lie unfortunately.

Sheesh. Read the BBC match report, Zebre got 3 yellow cards and we still couldnt beat them!

Also this was interesting, "The second score was awarded after a long wait for TV replays." now given some of the previous calls by Italian TMOs at home I'd love to see what happened.

4 minutes actually Glove and one of the guys across there texted me that it was ridiculous.

What price Bru's semi-precious stones now?

Well Zebre are underrated and i would say this result serves Solomons well for not picking the right team.

I think there comes a time when some of Edinburgh players' wages must come into question. Not just for this result, but previous games. Is it right that players like Visser and Denton can afford Mercedes price range cars and get (probably) near a 6 figure salary when they are losing to Zebre and over the past 2 seasons or so have been (consistently) underwhelming? And when Edinburgh struggle to get 3,000 figure attendances?

My god, that's a depressing result. Apparently that's the 3rd time in a row that the Foxhunters have lost to Italian opposition. The only silver cloud is that Edinburgh are still waiting for some internationals and injury victims to come back.

It's still very difficult not to look at that Edinburgh team, though, and think that they had the quality to win it.

When you look at how players like Laidlaw have kicked on, it's very difficult to believe that most of Edinburgh's higher profile players won't move on at the end of this season, with effect from the end of the RWC. If you were Matt Scott or Tim Visser and could play for a team that won something once in a while, wouldn't you just feel you should cut your losses and go?

Just saw this after a heavy weekend. That was pretty much a full strength team, shameful result. Could it get much worse?

The problem is the Edinburgh set up is ideal for shirking & laziness.

1. Your team cannot be relegated
2. You should get some relatively easy games (in the past Dragons, Connacht, Treviso, Zebre) and currently London Welsh in the next few weeks. This makes you look better than you are.
3. If you are a relatively high profile Scottish international that's young, like Denton, you're hardly going to be dropped from Edinburgh if you've put in a few decent international performances.
4. Glasgow are playing well = good Scottish side - Poor Scottish performances are avoided which could have put spotlight on Edinburgh.
5. Your pay & lifestyle is very good - drive a Mercedes type of car, lots of free time for family, long holidays.
6. If you are NSQ, like Strauss, and are older on a long-ish contract, well just play the contract out and then retire. You're not going to live in Scotland so ER's future doesn't effect you.

Compare that to England, and say you are a promising young English player. You can get dropped, down into an A team or the second division. You're team can get relegated. etc.

Edinburgh now12 points behind 6th place - no way we can ccatch that up.

Solomons' latest excuses - the weather (seriously), injuries to two our our internationals (Ford and Denton) and the poor TMO decision.

Highlights here



Nice try from a Visser break, but some terrible defending for their tries. Didn't see enough angles for their controversial 2nd try, but certainly didn't look clear cut that he was in touch...

to blame the weather is seriously ridiculous!

thats almost as pathertic as the french claiming that brittish cyclists had rounder wheels at the olympics!

That result has really knocked the stuffing out of me. If we had ground out the win we would be on 5 wins out of 6, looking good in Europe and back in touch for top 6 in the Pro 12 with a home game to Treviso next up. That loss leaves us floundering though.

The two great wins in the Challenge Cup have probably managed to put some polish on the turd temporarily. If we had been in the Champions Cup this season the chances are we would have lost the first two and we would all be calling for Solly's head by now. I think we have a decent enough bunch of players and have shown on occasion the ability to play intelligent, heads up rugby. It does look like this is being stifled/coached out of them.

I'll stick to what I said, give Solomans until after the 1872 games. He is going to need to win at least 4 of the next 5 now, as well as improving the attractiveness of our play, to persuade me he should keep his job. Anything less and he should get the boot in my eyes. Really hope we get a home QF in the challenge cup to give us something to look forward to as the run from January to the end of the season will feel long and pointless otherwise, and attendances will no doubt reflect it as well.

I’m sorry, but I have seen nothing from Solomans to suggest he is capable of turning this around.  I still think he should get till the end of the year, but come Jan he should out on his ear.

I think the damage is already done to a large extent in terms of players contracts.  Scott is up in the summer (I believe) as is Visser, if either of them has any level of ambition they’ll be off.  Visser rarely gets the ball and Scott is being forced out of position by a turnip, and now Solomans is blaming the weather!!  For f**k sake, did Zebre not have to play in the same conditions?  Did they get a wee bubble around them.  

I’m sick of his excuses and the team has shown nothing by way of improvement, we got a win the other week because the opposition spent most of the time off the pitch in the sin bin, had they managed to remain disciplined then we most likely wouldn’t have won.

It’s pathetic.  He needs to start packing his desk up now.

I know there is a case to be made that we shouldn’t keep chopping and changing, and I agree with that to a large extent, but equally we shouldn’t persist with something that’s not working and currently Solomans is not working.

tigertattie wrote:to blame the weather is seriously ridiculous!

thats almost as pathertic as the french claiming that brittish cyclists had rounder wheels at the olympics!

Solly can't blame anyone for this. If you cannot put the game away when your opposition spend half an hour with 14 men, you really deserve everything that you get. So, so worrying.

I'm also losing patience with Solomons. He's failing to get the most from the players available, and his persistent selection of Strauss at 12 is completely blinkered. The team selection and tactics are far too conservative, and doesn't play to the strengths of the players we have. It's a fundamental flaw from a coach (Matt Williams was a prime example) to select tactics and playing style without regard to the players you have. A good coach (Vern Cotter is an example) is one who reviews the players he has, consults them as to how they want to play and then implements that style to a high standard of execution. Solomons just isn't doing that and furthermore his numerous excuses after each game, becoming a trademark of his, indicate that he doesn't really understand the problem.

For me I would wait until the Glasgow New Year fixtures to see if he can improve things ahead of those and then, if no improvement, start looking for the next Edinburgh coach. First phonecall would be to Sean Lineen.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I'm also losing patience with Solomons. He's failing to get the most from the players available, and his persistent selection of Strauss at 12 is completely blinkered. The team selection and tactics are far too conservative, and doesn't play to the strengths of the players we have. It's a fundamental flaw from a coach (Matt Williams was a prime example) to select tactics and playing style without regard to the players you have. A good coach (Vern Cotter is an example) is one who reviews the players he has, consults them as to how they want to play and then implements that style to a high standard of execution. Solomons just isn't doing that and furthermore his numerous excuses after each game, becoming a trademark of his, indicate that he doesn't really understand the problem.

For me I would wait until the Glasgow New Year fixtures to see if he can improve things ahead of those and then, if no improvement, start looking for the next Edinburgh coach. First phonecall would be to Sean Lineen.

This. 100x this!!

I think I said something very similar to this and as a result completely agree. Yes Lineen is not without his own faults, but he started Glasgow on their journey, and built a team ethos. Which is something visibly lacking in the Edinburgh squad. Give him time to clear out the deadwood, build a team primarily made of Scottish players and a few NSQ's who actually improve the side, (AKA not Strauss).

Might be a bit harsh, but if Edinburgh go on to have another dreadful season (as is looking likely) I'd probably judge Matt Scott and Visser if they signed a new deal. I'm sure they will say they are showing faith in the club and are keen to turn things around, but to me it more suggests that they are quite happy being in their comfort zones earning a decent amount with little pressure on them and are well looked after.

I suspect both won't be short of offers - and I'd rather they'd stay at Edinburgh than make a bad move that ends up potentially ruining their careers (Gray to Sale) - but it would suggest a real lack of ambition.

Edinburgh would be screwed without them though.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Might be a bit harsh, but if Edinburgh go on to have another dreadful season (as is looking likely) I'd probably judge Matt Scott and Visser if they signed a new deal. I'm sure they will say they are showing faith in the club and are keen to turn things around, but to me it more suggests that they are quite happy being in their comfort zones earning a decent amount with little pressure on them and are well looked after.

I suspect both won't be short of offers - and I'd rather they'd stay at Edinburgh than make a bad move that ends up potentially ruining their careers (Gray to Sale) - but it would suggest a real lack of ambition.

Edinburgh would be screwed without them though.

Looking at it dispassionately - who would take Visser? Yes, he can finish, but what else does he bring to a team?

Mixed emotions on that RDW - I'd certainly not be renewing my season ticket if both Scott and Visser leave, but I do see what you are saying, particularly in relation to Matt Scott. He has the potential to be a very special player (frankly I don't see Visser improving much on what he already is - excellent finisher - complete jessie in defence), and I could see a top European side really taking Scott to the next level.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Might be a bit harsh, but if Edinburgh go on to have another dreadful season (as is looking likely) I'd probably judge Matt Scott and Visser if they signed a new deal. I'm sure they will say they are showing faith in the club and are keen to turn things around, but to me it more suggests that they are quite happy being in their comfort zones earning a decent amount with little pressure on them and are well looked after.

I suspect both won't be short of offers - and I'd rather they'd stay at Edinburgh than make a bad move that ends up potentially ruining their careers (Gray to Sale) - but it would suggest a real lack of ambition.

Edinburgh would be screwed without them though.

Go on to?  I think we can safely say we are already having a dreadful season.

I agree with you though, I think Scott and Viss will look at Laidlaw and the improvement he's made and if someone comes in for them they'll be off.  Also it's probably worth mentioning that Gray to sale didn't really ruin his career.  He had a rough time in Sale, but is now probably earning a fortune playing in France and looks to have nailed down his Scotland place.  If that's his career ruined then that's depressing for the rest of us.    (I know what you mean though)

demosthenes wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Might be a bit harsh, but if Edinburgh go on to have another dreadful season (as is looking likely) I'd probably judge Matt Scott and Visser if they signed a new deal. I'm sure they will say they are showing faith in the club and are keen to turn things around, but to me it more suggests that they are quite happy being in their comfort zones earning a decent amount with little pressure on them and are well looked after.

I suspect both won't be short of offers - and I'd rather they'd stay at Edinburgh than make a bad move that ends up potentially ruining their careers (Gray to Sale) - but it would suggest a real lack of ambition.

Edinburgh would be screwed without them though.

Looking at it dispassionately - who would take Visser?  Yes, he can finish, but what else does he bring to a team?  

Glasgow? They seem to have form in taking players that we have deemed not good enough and transformed them.

demosthenes wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Might be a bit harsh, but if Edinburgh go on to have another dreadful season (as is looking likely) I'd probably judge Matt Scott and Visser if they signed a new deal. I'm sure they will say they are showing faith in the club and are keen to turn things around, but to me it more suggests that they are quite happy being in their comfort zones earning a decent amount with little pressure on them and are well looked after.

I suspect both won't be short of offers - and I'd rather they'd stay at Edinburgh than make a bad move that ends up potentially ruining their careers (Gray to Sale) - but it would suggest a real lack of ambition.

Edinburgh would be screwed without them though.

Looking at it dispassionately - who would take Visser?  Yes, he can finish, but what else does he bring to a team?  

Don't get me started!! He's a winger. His role is to finish opportunities and score tries, and his record in that regard is excellent. Please do not overlook that when coming to review him as a player. To answer your question, I'm sure that a whole bunch of clubs would be interested in signing the individual who has topped the Rabo scoring charts for a number of years, as well as being included in the dream team a bunch of times. So I agree, let's look at it dispassionately.

I hope Scott does go. From an Edinburgh perspective he's brilliant and would be a huge loss to the side, but for his own good and for the good of his Scotland career, he needs to be playing rugby at a side where he can improve and develop, rather than be shunted out of position to accomodate the talent vacum that is Strauss.

that is on the basis we keep Solly, if he gets punted, then I hope Scott stays and we get a coach who can get the best from him.

EWT Spoons wrote:

demosthenes wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Might be a bit harsh, but if Edinburgh go on to have another dreadful season (as is looking likely) I'd probably judge Matt Scott and Visser if they signed a new deal. I'm sure they will say they are showing faith in the club and are keen to turn things around, but to me it more suggests that they are quite happy being in their comfort zones earning a decent amount with little pressure on them and are well looked after.

I suspect both won't be short of offers - and I'd rather they'd stay at Edinburgh than make a bad move that ends up potentially ruining their careers (Gray to Sale) - but it would suggest a real lack of ambition.

Edinburgh would be screwed without them though.

Looking at it dispassionately - who would take Visser?  Yes, he can finish, but what else does he bring to a team?  

Glasgow?  They seem to have form in taking players that we have deemed not good enough and transformed them.

Visser and Jones on the Glasgow wings!??

Glasgow have DTH, Maitland and Seymour (plus Lee Jones and Sean Lamont), can't see Glasgow signing another winger anytime soon.

Matt Scott would do a great job for Glasgow joking aside!

And spoons - I did say 'potentially'

I suppose you're right about Visser - a year or two ago he would have been one of the hottest signings in the UK, if not Europe, but he's well and truly been found out now. His form hasn't been great this year, and if his try scoring stats go down then so does his value as he offers not much else...

I just don't know who would sign Matt Scott though - 12 is such a competitive position in the better English and French teams - and it wouldn't be ideal if he went to someone like London Irish or Bayonne or something like that (with all due respect to those teams).

EWT Spoons wrote:I hope Scott does go.  From an Edinburgh perspective he's brilliant and would be a huge loss to the side, but for his own good and for the good of his Scotland career, he needs to be playing rugby at a side where he can improve and develop, rather than be shunted out of position to accomodate the talent vacum that is Strauss.

that is on the basis we keep Solly, if he gets punted, then I hope Scott stays and we get a coach who can get the best from him.

If Scott were to go then hopefully Solomons or whoever would look to install Burleigh at 12 in his place, put either Heathcote, Bezzy or Tonks at 10 and find something non-rugby related for Strauss to occupy himself with (suggestions welcome). In fact I think Bezzy would make a decent option at 12 given a shot, similarly Tonks (with Tom Brown being given a chance at 15, which I think he deserves). Whoever does play there needs to be able to pass with a degree of accuracy, kick the ball effectively and run fairly quickly.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Matt Scott would do a great job for Glasgow joking aside!

Happy to swap him for Jonny Gray, Rob Harley, Alex Dunbar and Mark Bennett, which seems about fair......

funnyExiledScot wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:

demosthenes wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Might be a bit harsh, but if Edinburgh go on to have another dreadful season (as is looking likely) I'd probably judge Matt Scott and Visser if they signed a new deal. I'm sure they will say they are showing faith in the club and are keen to turn things around, but to me it more suggests that they are quite happy being in their comfort zones earning a decent amount with little pressure on them and are well looked after.

I suspect both won't be short of offers - and I'd rather they'd stay at Edinburgh than make a bad move that ends up potentially ruining their careers (Gray to Sale) - but it would suggest a real lack of ambition.

Edinburgh would be screwed without them though.

Looking at it dispassionately - who would take Visser?  Yes, he can finish, but what else does he bring to a team?  

Glasgow?  They seem to have form in taking players that we have deemed not good enough and transformed them.

Visser and Jones on the Glasgow wings!??

Glasgow have DTH, Maitland and Seymour (plus Lee Jones and Sean Lamont), can't see Glasgow signing another winger anytime soon.

I had just assumed they were doing it to mock us, signing players whether they needed them or not just to rub it in our faces.

Kellock, Grant, Allan, Jones, Cross (for his loan spell), hell they even had Kennedy on loan and he looked at least twice the player he currently does. I think they just enjoy making us look silly.

I think Visser's reputation and how poor Edinburgh have been will actually work in his favour.  Under a coach who actually gets him the ball he could regain the form that he was in when a lot of folk were claiming he should have toured with the Lions.

His try scoring record is impressive and whilst I'm not a huge fan of Visser's*, I think he could get a decent move for himself.

*His try scoring is brilliant and for that reason alone it's hard not to like him and I agree with you FES that this should be the main aspect of his game.  But he has a number of weaknesses that are hard to ignore.  Namely his questionable defence and the frequency of occasions he goes missing during games.

Put it this way, it's no shock that Visser is "off form" this season given the Edinburgh tactics are to simply hoof and chase, hoof and chase and then.....hoof and chase. When we do spread the ball Strauss usually drops it, or manages to locate Sam Beard's ankles.

If I were coaching a progressive attacking side, I'd love to have Visser on the left wing. His strike rate is frankly ridiculous when you consider that he's played a large portion of his career with the likes of Ben Atiga and Andries Strauss.

For all that we're urined off at Edinburgh, we have to give young Timothy his due - his strike rate is staggering and a large number of clubs would be after him if he wanted to leave.

His awful defence will make him a 'luxury' player in the way that Shane Williams was, but like the original Squashed Goblin Williams, Visser's try scoring is enough of an incentive for clubs. Familiarity breeding contempt a little bit here, I think.

Solomons is clearly running out of excuses, the weather? come on this is pathetic. Zebre too were missing some key players like Aguero, Bergamasco, Garcia and Venditti... Their 2nd try looked just fine to me.

Also what message does it send to the players? it's ok guys you lost but it's not your fault you played well, tactics and team selection were spot on...

How long has he been signed for? if it's 2 year, i would already be looking for someone else (please be it Lineen). If he is unable to get 3 wins out of the next 5 fixtures i would really consider getting rid of him early January.

Didn't see the match, to be honest I wish I hadn't looked at this thread either. It sounds dire.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Didn't see the match, to be honest I wish I hadn't looked at this thread either. It sounds dire.

Put it this way, your stint sitting in hospital would have been more enjoyable than watching this game. I saw the highlights, and the Edinburgh backs barely slowed the Zebre attacks. They just ran straight through, almost uncontested at times. At least Ben Atiga had the decency to lie there pretending he was injured whilst hopelessly gasping for oxygen, this lot are apparently in good shape after the rigourous pre-season conditioning programme the lack of which the prior season formed Solomons' excuse for every bad result.