Coaching or 'Beasting'? Your experiences of youth rugby, etc.

by Guest Wed 10 Dec 2014, 12:12 pm

I subscribe to Rugby Onslaught through Facebook (meaning I 'liked' it once and get all the updates Wink

). This clip was posted today simply with the comment 'OMG'. I have to say I was similarly taken aback by the 'coaching' methods used. It's an advert for an American series looking at youth American Football in Texas.

I appreciate this is a collection of clips so the worst are probably chosen, but I'm amazed by this!

Is this just an American thing because, well, they're just crazy yanks?! Or do we see this across the globe? Am I being too sensitive? Will this ultimately lead to amazing athletes? Do amazing athletes need to have had a tough/brutal regime in youth to rise to the top?

Does anyone have any examples from rugby: over the top coaching, inappropriate coaching for the age group, etc? Does it work? What do the parents think?

Have a look and see what you think:

http://www.rugbyonslaught.com/2014/02/what-underage-american-football-is-like.html

by MrsP Wed 10 Dec 2014, 12:36 pm

I think "Child Abuse" is the term you are looking for!

Just because you have a whistle around your neck does not make it alright.

by MrsP Wed 10 Dec 2014, 12:40 pm

Have a look at this. The message is mostly for parents but coaches should watch it too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXw0XGOVQvw

by Guest Wed 10 Dec 2014, 3:05 pm

Thanks MrsP. Thats a good link. I get the need to encourage and gently push kids, but so many kids are put off participating into adolescence and adulthood due to poor experiences in youth. It's a fine line - I often wonder how hard people like Tiger Woods, McIlroy, Andy Murray, Rooney - any star who made it fairly young - how hard they were pushed as kids? Was there an element of mild 'child abuse'? Did they always enjoy it? Does the end justify the means in producing elite athletes??? It's a tough one. These athletes may be thankful that they were subjected to a brutal training regime now that they get to reap the rewards of lifestyle and riches. I bet they can all list friends who didn't train as hard, weren't pushed so hard, who fell by the wayside and now work in everyday, 9-5 jobs with some regrets about what could have been.

by MrsP Wed 10 Dec 2014, 3:35 pm

I would doubt there would be any rugby players who are better for being treated like that aged 8.

Certainly young kids have a great capacity for skill development at that stage but there really is no "training" rationale for the behaviour shown on that clip that I am aware of. Preadolescent kids have very poor anaerobic capacity so "beasting" is both useless and dangerous. I would not let my kids within a mile of the coaches shown in that clip.

Kids sport has to be about more than producing elite players. Participation has to be the main aim.

I have come across some poor coaching practice over the years. My son was playing in a rugby tournament aged 9 and I saw a coach from another team completely bawl one of his players out. His face was about an inch from this poor wee lad's face and he was screaming that he had better start making his tackles if he wanted to stay on the team.

I was disgusted.

I have also witnessed a school team who left 4 subs unused in a cup final for 14/15 year olds even though their team won the game 64 v 3. They were just left there watching and hoping they might get on.

People like that should not be allowed to be involved in kids sport.

by SecretFly Wed 10 Dec 2014, 4:08 pm

Don't overlook the fact though that regardless of what we think about America - they are experts at Entertainment and Crap Reality TV. They do it becuase it generates money - they're very very good at it - they're excellent at editing it - it's terrible stuff that I personally would not be watching a whole helluva lot of (although I do enjoy the odd Dog and Beth show Wink

)

But these guys know how to pander to the cameras, how to create the narratives that the producers want. So a lot of showmanship in the trash talk wrestling and miliary style lingo. Yes too, some distressing tears from children - but the tears haven't always come from the 'motivational pressure' chats - editing can make it seem so though.

Nobody would treat my kids like the guy who pushed one of them with disdain ...and that's serious stuff that parents shouldn't tolerate. But the parents are the ones sending these kids to these camps - and motivational crap talk down the throats of kids doesn't exist just in America either. I think I remember a documentary on soccer parents in England. The same drive and ambition for their kids...at the expense of all else.

So, it's a fine balancing act. You could say kids shouldn't be forced to do things that make them unhappy. I'd agree - but then I'm also a guy who would probably denounce young babies being risen up in the early morning to go to 'work'/ formal kindergartens and only to come home when parents come out from work in the evenings. And I know how they are run, it's not all informal fun and games.
I'd also be of the opinion that schools of today are probably ancient, outmoded things in this 21st century at this point, and I'm certain a whole bunch of my friends hated going to school and felt the emotional pressure from teachers they felt didn't like them.

So, you focus on the crying kids and I hate seeing children under stress - but you also look at the eager faces on others - they enjoy the competition, they enjoy the fun, they're eager to please and play.
It'll always be difficult to separate the two. But the buck stops with parents. If you push your children to these harsh environments and then be shocked by the attitudes of the 'trainers' then it's the parent that needs training in life, not the poor kids forced to 'enjoy' abuse.

by MrsP Thu 11 Dec 2014, 12:24 am

Have a look at this.

https://www.606v2.com/t56845-please-if-you-truly-love-rugby-then-watch-this

Those lads have coaches who know about kids and sport.

by **rodders** Sat 13 Dec 2014, 10:27 pm

Ah those kids have it easy...try being a chinese gymnast....

by SecretFly Sun 14 Dec 2014, 11:02 am

Try being a Child boxer. I saw a documentary on a very pushy father who was coaching his kid (can't be precise on the country but it was in Eastern Europe). .... it got so intense in a queasy kind of way that it became very uncomfortable to watch. Let's just say I feel the poor kid was being treated much worse behind the scenes - the father always managed to look sleazy and the kid always looked terrified.

by yappysnap Sun 14 Dec 2014, 12:15 pm

Try being any kind of young athlete in Soviet Russia 30 years ago. Or indeed in North Korea these days.

by doctor_grey Mon 15 Dec 2014, 10:33 pm

This was in Texas. Where they love Jesus, guns, football. But not always in that order. I heave heard stories of kids treated like that - and then people wonder why sometimes teens or young adults have problems adjusting. Pathetic really. And it does nothing to build better players. In my opinion, simply leads to a higher drop out rate. And possibly (probably?) damages the kids.

Haven't seen any of that in Jersey where I am living. In fact, I have been asked by a couple of high schools to come and run a few defense tackling skills sessions for their high school football teams. They see Rugby as ahead of American Football in that regard. At both schools, one is my town, the other is for a town about 5 miles away, the practices are difficult but upbeat and positive. And it is easy to see it in the kids. They enjoy it and the teams are fairly successful. These schools will likely not produce any NFL players, but they will produce lifelong American Football fans.

The similarity to the age group Rugby teams I coach is that our philosophy is that we want to develop an Old Boys team for the year 2035. In other words, help build the love of the sport for now and the next 30 years. I think the towns where I have attended the practices are doing the same for American Football. I cannot see that happening in Texas. I have to wonder if this mentality is one of the reasons why Texas has a higher rate of violent crime.

by lostinwales Tue 16 Dec 2014, 11:57 am

Griff wrote:Thanks MrsP. Thats a good link. I get the need to encourage and gently push kids, but so many kids are put off participating into adolescence and adulthood due to poor experiences in youth. It's a fine line - I often wonder how hard people like Tiger Woods, McIlroy, Andy Murray, Rooney - any star who made it fairly young - how hard they were pushed as kids? Was there an element of mild 'child abuse'? Did they always enjoy it? Does the end justify the means in producing elite athletes??? It's a tough one. These athletes may be thankful that they were subjected to a brutal training regime now that they get to reap the rewards of lifestyle and riches. I bet they can all list friends who didn't train as hard, weren't pushed so hard, who fell by the wayside and now work in everyday, 9-5 jobs with some regrets about what could have been.

What about the guys who did train every bit as hard, but due to a combination of lack of talent, a badly timed injury, natural physical development, bad chemistry with the coach or just simple bad luck, end up with nothing. If you win in professional sport the rewards can be huge, but there are a lot of losers for every winner.

by SecretFly Tue 16 Dec 2014, 12:02 pm

A loser is a loser by definition. Who cares about them?

I only like winners.

by SecretFly Tue 16 Dec 2014, 12:04 pm

...and Jesus was from Texas, so he knows I'm telling the truth.

by Irish Londoner Tue 16 Dec 2014, 12:56 pm

Couple of things about this - firstly as SF says a lot of it's in the editing, however there are undoubtedly parents who are desperate for their children to make it in sport and will voluntarily put them through all sorts of hoops to do so - not so sure about the Woods/McIlroy/Murray thing as they seem to be the opposite, kids who want to play the sport and who have an incredible natural talent for it, which when combined with good coaching, and supportive parenting gives them the head start on the road.
We've got one lad in our club who is now a county/region player and is being offered academy training by a couple of clubs and a scholarship at a private rugby playing school, he's very lucky in that he has very supportive parents with the financial wherewithall to pay for a home gym, personal training etc. but the key thing is that he wants to to it for himself. We have another couple of lads who are equally talented but will go no further than at best a rugby career at club level because their parents couldn't be bothered to drive them to the county trial games, only pay their subs when the alternative is expulsion from the club, etc.
That said I doubt if the US "in your face" coaching would work here in any sport, most kids and/parents wouldn't tolerate that sort of behaviour.
There's also a cultural difference in that sporting ability in the US can be a ticket to a better life in a way that it isn't in Europe, even if you never make it to the pro leagues, a decent college player will get a free education, free accomodation and other benefits that a normal student doesn't get.

by doctor_grey Tue 16 Dec 2014, 11:34 pm

SecretFly wrote:...and Jesus was from Texas, so he knows I'm telling the truth.

How y'all doin, boy?
Y'all come back now, hear?

by doctor_grey Tue 16 Dec 2014, 11:37 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
SecretFly wrote:...and Jesus was from Texas, so he knows I'm telling the truth.
How y'all doin, boy?
Y'all come back now, hear?

authors note: do you think those boys who like carrying BIG GUNS are compensating for something quite personal which might be a few inches short of the line, so to speak?

by lostinwales Wed 17 Dec 2014, 9:00 am

I just liked that comment about right wing america, that the sanctity of life starts at conception and ends at birth.

by SecretFly Wed 17 Dec 2014, 10:53 am

doctor_grey wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
SecretFly wrote:...and Jesus was from Texas, so he knows I'm telling the truth.
How y'all doin, boy?
Y'all come back now, hear?
authors note: do you think those boys who like carrying BIG GUNS are compensating for something quite personal which might be a few inches short of the line, so to speak?

Doc....................... if I lived in wild and often isolation-crazy kooky Texas, I too would carry a BIG GUN! And NO, it wouldn't be compensating for inches elsewhere! But it would be trying to keep those inches from being shot off in some bar-room brawl about Jesus!

by RubyGuby Wed 17 Dec 2014, 4:36 pm

by Guest Wed 17 Dec 2014, 6:28 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Griff wrote:Thanks MrsP. Thats a good link. I get the need to encourage and gently push kids, but so many kids are put off participating into adolescence and adulthood due to poor experiences in youth. It's a fine line - I often wonder how hard people like Tiger Woods, McIlroy, Andy Murray, Rooney - any star who made it fairly young - how hard they were pushed as kids? Was there an element of mild 'child abuse'? Did they always enjoy it? Does the end justify the means in producing elite athletes??? It's a tough one. These athletes may be thankful that they were subjected to a brutal training regime now that they get to reap the rewards of lifestyle and riches. I bet they can all list friends who didn't train as hard, weren't pushed so hard, who fell by the wayside and now work in everyday, 9-5 jobs with some regrets about what could have been.

What about the guys who did train every bit as hard, but due to a combination of lack of talent, a badly timed injury, natural physical development, bad chemistry with the coach or just simple bad luck, end up with nothing. If you win in professional sport the rewards can be huge, but there are a lot of losers for every winner.

Oh I completely agree. I was only hypothesising that the likes of Murray and McIlroy might have had pushy parents when young which led them to sporting greatness. I was wondering whether, if this was the case, if without it Murray, McIlroy et al may never have made it. I have no idea though. I'll have to ask Judy next time I see her!

by Mr Bounce Sun 21 Dec 2014, 4:09 pm

When I was at school some 25-30 years ago we had various school rugby team coaches, some of whom were great, but others didn't have a clue. There was one guy who was more focussed on fitness than the game itself. One afternoon he told us we would concentrating on strength and stamina - he told us we were running through the woods and up the hill with a mate. On our backs. And of course I ended up with one of the heaviest blokes in the squad (and I was the shortest and one of the lightest typically). I went first and managed it but it wasn't something any of us were comfortable with - there were a number of complaints from the established players. We never did it again...

by Driver Tue 23 Dec 2014, 4:45 pm

That is one of the worst things I have seen in my years playing as a junior and coaching youth rugby. Some coaches seem to think the louder you are the better you are.

It's embarrassing for the people who have to put up with these people on a Sunday morning, They are so many who think they are Alex Feguson or Richard Cockerill and try to act like it too 8 year olds.

by Thomond Tue 23 Dec 2014, 9:16 pm

There are some coaches who are in your face and give you a load of Shioite. From looking at motivation in athletes and my own experiences it doesn't tend to work. Constructive criticism is the way to go,you can't praise a guy if he does something wrong (if they do it right and you praise them it confuses the message).

I've seen guys do Turkey runs, where you run till you get sick, which is just stupid. I think improved coaching systems has limited some of this behaviour. In Ireland at least I think we still place far too big an emphasis on size/bulking. You see Irish underage props, who win with their size despite atrocious technique. Some of these attitudes are changing but there are not enough development coaches and whatnot to go around. That's a lack of finances mainly.

I can't recall too many situations from my experience of a guy being completely pressured into sport against his will. If parent and kid want it, then pressure isn't necessarily bad. Saw an interesting documentary on it before, about an American football player called Todd Marinovich. Worth a watch if you have the time http://vimeo.com/90829218

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