Challenge Cup: London Welsh v Edinburgh, 14 December

                 
London Welsh v Edinburgh Rugby
Sunday 14 December 2014
KO 14:30
Kassam Stadium, Oxford

BBC Radio Oxford and BBC Sport website. No, really.

Referee Alexandre Ruiz (France)
Touch Judge 1 Sebastien Minery (France)
Touch Judge 2 Cedric Clave (France)
Fourth Official Andrew Small (England)

A. Teams:

1. London Welsh

Kear; Elder, Awcock, May (capt), Scott; Barkley, Lewis; Aholelei, Morris, Vea; Schofield, Down; Browne, Kirwan, McCaffrey.

Replacements: Vella, Reeves, Cooper, Corker, Pienaar, Rowley, Weepu, Reynolds.

2. Edinburgh

Cuthbert; Fife, Scott, Strauss, Visser; Tonks, Hidalgo-Clyne; Sutherland, Cochrane, Andress; Bresler, Toolis; Leonardi, Grant, Coman (capt).

Replacements: Hilterbrand, Shiells, Nel, McKenzie, McInally, Hart, Heathcote, Beard.

B. Tournament Form:

1. London Welsh

7/12/14 - Edinburgh 25 - 13 L Welsh

23/10/14 - L Welsh 20 - 52 Bordeaux

18/10/14 - Lyon 28 - 18 L Welsh

2. Edinburgh

7/12/14 - Edinburgh 25 - 13 L Welsh

24/10/14 - Edinburgh 25 - 17 Lyon

17/10/14 - Bordeaux 13 - 15 Edinburgh

C. Head to Head

1 Played 1
0 Wins 1
1 Losses 0
0 Draws 0
1 Tries 3
1 Conversions 2
2 Penalties 2
0 Drop Goals 0
19 Points 25

This was on Monday but for those who haven't seen this a few clues in here:
http://www.thesportreview.com/tsr/2014/12/ross-ford-and-dave-denton-could-make-edinburgh-return-on-sunday/

Full article below:
Alan Solomons believes Scotland duo Ross Ford and Dave Denton could return for Edinburgh’s clash with London Welsh on Sunday.
The Gunners head coach has had to cope with a devastating injury list over the last two months, exacerbated by losing five players during the European Challenge Cup win over Lyon in October.

But the Scottish club could receive a timely boost ahead with hooker Ford (back) and number 8 Denton (shoulder), as well as loosehead prop Alasdair Dickinson (Achilles), expected to return, and the South African coach sees light at the end of the tunnel after a difficult period.

“I’m hoping Ross Ford and David Denton are both going to be available [for Sunday],” Solomons said.

“Al Dickinson may be another week, but it’s good Anton [Bresler] got on and got playing.

“Hopefully guys will slowly but surely start trickling back, I think Dicko maybe against Treviso.

“You don’t just come back and play – it takes the guys time.

“If we can just get the bulk of our guys back and get game after game after game to build some consistency it’s going to make a massive difference to us.

“Then we’ll see the benefit of the strength in depth that we’ve built.
“At the moment, we’ve got nine front line players out — that’s huge.

“For any team, that’s massive. Glasgow are a splendid side, but you could see it against the Scarlets when they had eight or nine guys out — they struggled.”

Also still on the sidelines for Edinburgh are lock and vice-captain Grant Gilchrist, centre Phil Burleigh, outside-half Carl Bezeuidenhout, props Allan Dell and Wicus Blaauw, loose forwards Cornell du Preez and Hamish Watson, American wing Brett Thompson, and youngsters Hugh Fraser and Jamie Farndale.

Wing Dougie Fife also had to be withdrawn from the starting XV before Sunday’s 25-13 win over London Welsh at BT Murrayfield with a hamstring problem.

“His hamstring was bothering him today,” Solomons said after the win.

“Our medics are great. [Head physio] Stuart Paterson said to me he’s not going to make this game.

“Fortunately we were forewarned about it and we had Tom Brown. We withdrew him from the club game [for Boroughmuir] and had him at the captain’s run, so Tommy was here and ready to play.”

Solomons’ depleted squad faces a tough test in the coming weeks with three important Guinness PRO12 matches after the European contest with the Exiles at the Kassam Stadium.

Benetton Treviso head to BT Murrayfield just five days later, before the biggest two weeks of Edinburgh’s season as the 1872 Cup double header against inter-city rivlas Glasgow Warriors returns"


I particularly like the bit in bold. Surely you see the benefit of our "strength in depth" when the first choice players are actually injured...not when they come back??
Solly is clearly a rugby man through and through and knows his stuff but every now and then he does say something that makes him sound a bit senile.
The gaffe last week when he praised our subs and mentioned Sutherland (who started the game) is another one. Sometimes he comes across a bit like Scott Johnson Lite.

Anyway, to the match. After last weeks tale of two halves surely this box kicking malarkey needs put to bed once and for all. Surely, surely???!!

Didn't watch it but what was last weeks game like? Did Welsh put up a fight or were they as poor as they'be been in the AP?

I was at the game and for the first half LW put up a good fight. They were winning almost all of the kicking duels which did give them a bit more of a platform than Edinburgh. Didn't think they looked like threatening to score a try at any point though (interception try notwithstanding!). Welsh were 13-6 up at half time, even though they had spent 10 minutes with 14 men.
Edinburgh changed approach after half time and kept ball in hand. Scored within a couple of minutes of the restart and LW were backs to the wall for the rest of the game. They must have been well behind on both territory and possession in the 2nd half. Having said that they managed to hold on to the lead until around 65/70minutes I think, when two Edinburgh tries killed the game.

I don't know what to pinpoint about LW, it could well be fitness levels. I thought they were always slow at the breakdown and hence never looked like turning over Edinburgh in the tackle - and never gave themselves 2/3 quick phases in attack to get any forward momentum going against a disorganised defence. Mabye it's fitness, or speed but think if they could hit rucks a second earlier each time it would make a massive difference to them.

I guess the thing I would most like to see from this game is McInally to get a run out at hooker. This experiment has been an awful long time in the making, so it is time to see what all the fuss is about. I expect that Ford will start, but put him on the bench and give him a decent 20-30 mins in the second half. If Denton is back then the back row worries are eased somewhat, so if not now then when.

The unfortunate thing for McInally is that the goal posts have moved somewhat since he made the change with the view of getting capped as a hooker. Now Ford is back playing at the level he should have been for years and Brown and possibly Bryce look like decent back ups. It is going to be far harder for him now to make his mark there and unlikely to do so before the world cup.

Still looking at the options in the back row, now and in the future, he would have struggled ever to have got capped there either. Give him the credit for trying and lets hope the experiment is a success.

Agreed on the timing of McInally's move - if he hadn't been out injured for 18 months on and off he would have had a lot of pro experience under his belt just now, and might have been pushing for the Scotland squad.

As it stands he's under a year away from the WC and still not played a pro game at hooker - certainly too late.

I think his aim to be get in the Edinburgh squad and push for the A-team.

He's still young so will have plenty years ahead of him to get capped.

As for this game, well my thoughts on it can perfectly be summed up by the following:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Agreed on the timing of McInally's move - if he hadn't been out injured for 18 months on and off he would have had a lot of pro experience under his belt just now, and might have been pushing for the Scotland squad.

As it stands he's under a year away from the WC and still not played a pro game at hooker - certainly too late.

I think his aim to be get in the Edinburgh squad and push for the A-team.

He's still young so will have plenty years ahead of him to get capped.

As for this game, well my thoughts on it can perfectly be summed up by the following:

He did play for Bristol a few times, but mainly off the bench and obviously not at the top professional level. Hopefully he will get a run now, he is a good player

Selection wise, if there was ever a time to see some player rotations this would be it - with Treviso (an absolute must win game IMO - TBP preferably) coming up 5 days after this LW game, then the 1872 fixtures after that, he's surely going to have to bring some players in.

I'd actually use this game to rest/rotate players, focusing on Treviso as a springboard for Glasgow.

Starting with Strauss.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Selection wise, if there was ever a time to see some player rotations this would be it - with Treviso (an absolute must win game IMO - TBP preferably) coming up 5 days after this LW game, then the 1872 fixtures after that, he's surely going to have to bring some players in.

I'd actually use this game to rest/rotate players, focusing on Treviso as a springboard for Glasgow.

Starting with Strauss.

The trouble is, with the limitations on the European squads and the injuries, there may not be quite as much scope for rotation as we would like to see. Tonks sounds like he is due a start though, especially if Heathcote was carrying a knock. We would all like to see Scott and Beard in the centres but not sure that will happen. If Fyfe not fit, then that pretty much leaves only Viss and Brown, which I would be happy enough with. We are not going to see wholesale changes in this game though, just a bit of gentle tinkering at best.

True, but I think Hidalgo-Clyne, Tonks, Bresler, Andress and Beard would be a good start - all were on the bench for the last game.

I'd maybe actually rest Matt Scott - he's done well getting through the recent games after injury but has some key games coming up.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Selection wise, if there was ever a time to see some player rotations this would be it - with Treviso (an absolute must win game IMO - TBP preferably) coming up 5 days after this LW game, then the 1872 fixtures after that, he's surely going to have to bring some players in.

I'd actually use this game to rest/rotate players, focusing on Treviso as a springboard for Glasgow.

Starting with Strauss.

I don't agree. Meaningless tho it is apart from playing for pride the league has gone for edinburgh already. Might as well make a real go at the minnows cup. We are not going to get anywhere in the league, might as well do Glasgow a favour doing and also have a decent cup run

nice images GC!

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

nice images GC!

Being a man of restraint and impeccable taste, I am proud that I didn't stoop to using the image for Edinburgh that would have been most fitting. Which is this one:

George Carlin wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

nice images GC!

Being a man of restraint and impeccable taste, I am proud that I didn't stoop to using the image for Edinburgh that would have been most fitting. Which is this one:

So much restraint shown that you had to mention your restraint as an excuse to put that picture up anyway

does that sheep have gingivitis? (and no I don't mean the terrible affliction that Glove has)

Tonks at 10 and Scott at 12. I don't care about much else!!

Getting permission to play attacking rugby would also be a must have - you could have Quade Cooper at 10 and he'd be useless if the 9 just kicked everything away!

15 Jack CUTHBERT
14 Dougie FIFE
13 Matt SCOTT
12 Andries STRAUSS
11 Tim VISSER
10 Greig TONKS
9 Sam HIDALGO-CLYNE

1 Rory SUTHERLAND
2 Neil COCHRANE
3 John ANDRESS
4 Anton BRESLER
5 Ben TOOLIS
6 Tomas LEONARDI
7 Roddy GRANT
8 Mike COMAN (Captain)

Substitutes
16 James HILTERBRAND
17 Grant SHIELLS
18 Willem NEL
19 Fraser McKENZIE
20 Stuart McINALLY
21 Grayson HART
22 Tom HEATHCOTE
23 Sam BEARD

Delighted to see Tonks and Cuthbert in there.

Big chance for Tonks to get possession of the 10 shirt.

Decent looking side with a strong bench as well. Lets see what Tonksy can do at 10. He is bringing in another Scots qualified Kiwi youngster on trial, so it sounds like Burleigh and Bezzy will be out for the rest of the season. I would imagine that we won't see a lot more of Bezzy and he will be off at the end of the season. Burleigh also has gone the same way as a lot of others who have tried to play back to back southern and northern season and ended up injured.

I see there's a bit on the team announcement on Blake and de ture on trial. A flanker and SQ 10 respectively

McInally getting another run out in the back row as well, still short of fit back rowers in the European squad I guess. At least it is getting him match fit and maybe we will see him on the bench as hooker next weekend.

Interesting about the trialists (I'm glad they've only been given a trial)

The stand off has very little pedigree - surely there's someone from the club game that could have been given a trial?

I don't know if they are at pro level yet but there's the likes of George Horne or Lee Millar (should have been signed by Edinburgh) that could have been given a shot/EDP contract.

Well the positive thing is, Strauss aside that is my preferred backline!

RDW_Scotland wrote:Interesting about the trialists (I'm glad thrive only been given a trial)

The stand off has very little pedigree - surely there's someone from the club game that could have been given a trial?

NZ u20's and playing regular ITM for a successful team. I think it is a little harsh to say he has no pedigree. It is very very hard to break into the super franchises out there and a lot of very good players just don't get the chance. I would imagine he is far more developed as a player than anyone who could have been brought in from our club game. I think both Glasgow and Edinburgh are short of a FH at the moment. He is SQ so lets see what he is like.

Unfortunately you just can't pluck someone out of Scottish club rugby and expect them to survive at pro level, the training would kill most of them, let alone the matches. They need to be prepared physically, which is why we are not seeing that much of any of the young prospects this year, hopefully by next year they will be ready and with so many players missing fro the start of the season with the world cup, they will get their chance.

Nematode wrote:I don't know if they are at pro level yet but there's the likes of George Horne or Lee Millar (should have been signed by Edinburgh) that could have been given a shot/EDP contract.

Edinburgh are one injury away from being in trouble at FH and the way their season has been going that could happen any time. They need someone who can hit the ground running, not an EDP prospect for a few years time.

Glasgow are in the same boat, which is why they are bringing Braid back during the next international window and he is also very unproven at the top level. They are light as well though, if Weir and Russell are both away, it only leaves Horne, who is no FH in my opinion. They are going to have to have a serious think about that one when recruiting for next season.

BigGee wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Interesting about the trialists (I'm glad thrive only been given a trial)

The stand off has very little pedigree - surely there's someone from the club game that could have been given a trial?

NZ u20's and playing regular ITM for a successful team. I think it is a little harsh to say he has no pedigree. It is very very hard to break into the super franchises out there and a lot of very good players just don't get the chance. I would imagine he is far more developed as a player than anyone who could have been brought in from our club game. I think both Glasgow and Edinburgh are short of a FH at the moment. He is SQ so lets see what he is like.

Unfortunately you just can't pluck someone out of Scottish club rugby and expect them to survive at pro level, the training would kill most of them, let alone the matches. They need to be prepared physically, which is why we are not seeing that much of any of the young prospects this year, hopefully by next year they will be ready and with so many players missing fro the start of the season with the world cup, they will get their chance.

To be clear, by my understanding Manawatu won the ITM 'championship', which I think is the 2nd division of the ITM cup?

I'm not too familiar with the competition but I'd be surprised if it was Pro 12 standard.

So for me that isn't a great pedigree, although he is young.  I've said before, if we're bringing in foreign talent they really need to have had at least a season playing Super rugby - that's the kind of quality we should be aiming for.  I know it's not easy to attract people though.

And we've been here before too - who was the random Kiwi 10 we signed short term a few years ago? I'm sure he had a similar pedigree, and even made the bench for one of the 1872 games. He was rank average.

Anyway, here's an article on Te Rure

Turbos coach Jason O'Halloran was happy that the province keeps producing talent, with three Manawatu men named in the New Zealand under-20 squad yesterday.

Kia Toa first-five Jade Te Rure, centre Jason Emery and Varsity hooker-prop Nick Grogan were named in the team to play in the IRB world junior championships in France in June.

O'Halloran wondered if as many Manawatu men had trialled for the national team a few years ago, whether such talent might have been lost to the union. Even having flanker-lock Jackson Hemopo in the side was a positive because he is a product of Palmerston North Boys' High School.

Manawatu would find a spot for him too if he wasn't contracted to Otago now.

"We have done well," said O'Halloran, who was one of many coaches who helped coach Chris Boyd pick the team.

Te Rure was the bolter because he was called in to the squad late after excelling for Manawatu Maori in the Central Region tournament.

"Jade has done very well because he was not involved in November, was trialling last month and has played his way in."

He said Kia Toa coach Fusi Feaunati can also take credit for Te Rure's development.

"The big thing for Jade is he has been stiff with a couple of selections in the past, like Hurricanes School. Now he needs to re-set his focus and push for a start [in the team].

"I was glad he played with confidence in the trial."

Te Rure, 19, is on a Manawatu academy contract and the under-20 campaign will be pivotal for his development.

Managed to find the random Kiwi 10's name - Tony Fenner

Remember him?

No!

Here's the highlights package (remember, they always looks good - Mike Penn anyone?)

http://vimeo.com/108187520

And for balance, here he is getting smashed by Robbie Fruean



Here's another article, with the key bits highlighted:

Jade Te Rure has confirmed he will soon be heading to Scotland to play for Edinburgh Rugby whose home ground is the famous Murrayfield.

The Manawatu Turbos first five-eighth has turned down the Hurricanes wider training group so he can play professionally in the off-season.

The plan is for him to return to Palmerston North and rejoin Kia Toa in May.

He was meant to be in Scotland this week, but is waiting for a British heritage visa to come through and might not fly out until the end of the month. His grandmother was born in Scotland.

While the Hurricanes were interested in having Te Rure for their pre-season training, his agent asked him if he wanted to be holding tackle bags or playing Pro 12 and Heineken Cup rugby in Europe.

"That made it easier," Te Rure said. "It will be a good experience."

At the Hurricanes he would have been ranked behind Beauden Barrett, James Marshall and Manawatu's Otere Black.

Since the Turbos won the Championship final, Te Rure said he has "been chilling" and adhering to a training programme set for him by Manawatu trainer Scott Pinfold.

The first-fives at Edinburgh have been Kiwi Phil Burleigh, Natal's Carl Bezuidenhout and Scot Tom Heathcote.

The Edinburgh coach is former Springboks assistant coach Alan Solomons.

"He said I would get a fair bit of game time. It will be a pretty good level."

To fill out his time, it is possible he will also turn out for English club, Bristol.

Te Rure went to Scotland for a few days in 2010 with the Palmerston North Boys' High School 1st XV when they played the Scotland under-18s.

His aim this time is to work on his tactical game before returning for another year of his Turbos' contract.

"It will be good next year to see what happens. I suppose I'll be sharing the spot with Otere."

Te Rure's feat of missing just one goalkick in 16 attempts for Manawatu might be some sort of national record.

The difference with this guy is that he is SQ, so not just a random Kiwi. He is coming on a trial and not on a contract. He is likely to be playing for expenses as well, so is not going to be a financial drain.

I understand what you are saying about bringing in top class players, but that is not always what you want, especially at FH when we need our own guys to get game time and to improve. This guy is only likely to get game time if Tonks or Heathcote get injured or called up for Scotland, both of which are entirely possible.

It may well turn out that he is a half decent player, I kind of suspect that anyone who played for NZ u20's is. He is likely to be a better option than Bezzy, who is currently our 3rd choice FH and is injured. If he proves himself, he may well take his place in the squad next year. I don't imagine anyone would have any massive problem with that.

Whichever way you look at it he is going to be more prepared to play professional rugby than someone plucked from the club game here.

It's good that he's SQ so that helps things, and NZ under 20s does have pedigree (although did Simon Berghan also not get capped at under 20s??).

I know what you're saying about Scottish Prem 1 players not being ready to make the step up, but this Te Rure guy hasn't played since the ITM season ended (8 weeks ago), so he won't exactly be able to come straight off the plane and play either.

RDW_Scotland wrote:It's good that he's SQ so that helps things, and NZ under 20s does have pedigree (although did Simon Berghan also not get capped at under 20s??).

I know what you're saying about Scottish Prem 1 players not being ready to make the step up, but this Te Rure guy hasn't played since the ITM season ended (8 weeks ago), so he won't exactly be able to come straight off the plane and play either.

Well hopefully he won't have to, but one injury to a FH and you are up the creak. I am sure the coaches realise that and that's why they have brought him over. He is likely to have remained fairly fit and will hopefully get up to speed quickly. You are far more likely to need him off the bench than starting a game unless both of them go down.

I do think this means that the other FH options at Edinburgh are likely to be crocked for most, if not all of the season.

I suppose if push came to shove Sam H-C has played there before (under 20s), as has Mclennan I think (yipee!) and apparently we've got an apprentice 10/15 called Ruairi Howarth.

None of those would be particularly appealing though, and you are right that we're a Heathcoat/Tonks injury away from being short of cover.

Can't see either of them being any 6N squads though, so I suppose injury is the only worry. Given the season we're having, there is probably a strong possibility!

RDW_Scotland wrote:I suppose if push came to shove Sam H-C has played there before (under 20s), as has Mclennan I think (yipee!) and apparently we've got an apprentice 10/15 called Ruairi Howarth.

None of those would be particularly appealing though, and you are right that we're a Heathcoat/Tonks injury away from being short of cover.

Can't see either of them being any 6N squads though, so I suppose injury is the only worry.  Given the season we're having, there is probably a strong possibility!

Only takes one of Russell or Weir to go down and then those 2 are the next in line for a call up and I would be amazed if the rest of the season went by without one of them getting an injury of some sort, not to mention a bit of rotation to keep them fresh and sharp. The season has a long way to run yet.

Give the coaches some credit here for a bit of foresight.

RDW_Scotland wrote:It's good that he's SQ so that helps things, and NZ under 20s does have pedigree (although did Simon Berghan also not get capped at under 20s??).

I know what you're saying about Scottish Prem 1 players not being ready to make the step up, but this Te Rure guy hasn't played since the ITM season ended (8 weeks ago), so he won't exactly be able to come straight off the plane and play either.

Nah Berghan never made any national rep teams back in NZ. Highest he go to was Canterburys B squad.
Saw Jade Te Rure play a couple times in the ITM championship this season and he did look pretty decent, from what I heard Aaron Cruden had taken him under his wing a bit as Cruden is a Turbos player as well.
The ITM cup and ITM championship are both very strong tournaments, probably not quite at pro12 level but certainly not far of it and quite a few of those teams would give the pro12 teams a run for their money.
Could be a good signing for Edinburgh but does sound as if he will be heading back to NZ for the next ITM cup season when the turbos will be in the top flight and he will be starting 10.

Big result for Edinburgh last night in the group with Lyon winning the return leg against Bordeaux 37-28, denying Bordeaux a BP of any kind. Obviously still a long way to go and lots of permutations of what might happen.
What is certain now though is that Edinburgh will definitely top the pool if they get 10 points from the final 3 games. If we could get a win with TBP tomorrow we will be halfway there. Although we have had as many TBPs this season as London Welsh have had wins so won't get too excited just yet, anything could happen!

I can't even find a radio commentry - neither radio Oxford or bbc sports website! Help!

Don't think there's any coverage or from the photo edinburgh rugby tweeted any crowd!

Amusingly though, apparently Cochrane had to change his shorts 3 times in the first 11 minutes!

Thrillingly we're 9-3 up at half time. Apparently Strauss was yellow carded at some point & that's about it. Probably just as well there's no coverage

They've got a man in the bin now, so quick start to the second half would be good - get the scoreboard ticking.

Sounds like S-H-C is kicking well.

12-6 with 30 to go - not exactly comfortable

3200 attendance apparently - same we had against them.

Funf scores after Cuthbert puts him over.

Even though weve won, this cannot be spun positively. 8 tries in 4 games when 2 games were against the worst team in the premiership is not the standard we should be expecting. Solomans has completely blunted our attacking game with his play by the book at all costs otherwise ill freeze you out of the club mentality.

Our lack of Bonus points could cost us if we slip up in the next two games, which is entirely possible. Were not out of sight in this group yet.

Imperialbigdave wrote:Our lack of Bonus points could cost us if we slip up in the next two games, which is entirely possible. Were not out of sight in this group yet.

Yep, if we'd got our hands on a couple of bonus points against London Welsh we would only need one win of any kind in the final two games. Instead we are probably going to have to win them both now to stay on top of the group which is a big ask.
Didn't see the game but twitter made out there were plenty of missed opportunities. Looking forward to hearing a first hand account from someone who was there.

Imperialbigdave wrote:Even though weve won, this cannot be spun positively. 8 tries in 4 games when 2 games were against the worst team in the premiership is not the standard we should be expecting. Solomans has completely blunted our attacking game with his play by the book at all costs otherwise ill freeze you out of the club mentality.

No knowledge of seeing what the game was like, but it is hard to say how you cannot spin a 100% record positively!

Solomons game plan is getting very frustrating now , we have some good backs who are not allowed to play. He's sort of sorted the forwards, but time to move on at the end of the season Alan.

Solomons: Credit to team today, we should have got bonus point but important thing was to get the win.

Same as last week then.

Edinburgh isn't a team who will put to the sword their opposition, remember they are supposed to be a "set-piece team" which is another way of saying that they won't score many tries but will rely on winning (or not) through kicks.

Can't tell much about this one without having seen it but looked to be a more professional display than the one last week.