Saracens Are At It Again

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From the Guardian:

"Saracens are leading calls to scrap the Aviva Premiership salary cap, with chief executive Edward Griffiths claiming it “has served its purpose.”
In a statement released on their website on Friday morning, Griffiths also said that believes he has the backing of six other English clubs.
Premiership Rugby introduced a salary cap in 1999. It is currently £5m per club, and will rise by £500,000 for next season, when clubs will also be able to nominate two marquee “excluded players.”
Griffiths’ reported comments come ahead of next year’s World Cup in England, after which many of the world’s top stars are expected to base themselves in Europe on lucrative club deals.
New Zealand star Dan Carter has already agreed a £1.3m per year contract with wealthy French club Racing Metro, while Australia back Adam Ashley-Cooper is to join Bordeaux-Begles.
"The salary cap has served its purpose,” Griffiths said."
“It would be a pity if the world’s top players light up the World Cup on English soil, and then leave to play club rugby in France.
“If the salary cap is left to forbid the required investment, it will kill any hope of growth.
“English clubs must compete in the European Champions Cup against Irish and French sides spending two or three times as much on players. Imagine the likes of Arsenal or Manchester City being asked to compete with Barcelona, Bayern (Munich) and Real Madrid under those circumstances. It would never happen, but it happens in rugby."
“The combination of England hosting the Rugby World Cup in 2015 and Sevens featuring in the Rio Olympic Games in 2016 creates a historic, but fleeting, platform for rugby to grow dramatically."
“It is time to seize that opportunity, to ensure a level playing field in Europe, to build the strongest league in world rugby and to let players earn market-related salaries. We must release the handbrake and step on the accelerator."
“We understand some clubs fear the removal of the salary cap will cause wage inflation, yet, in reality, salaries are already being driven by the French clubs."
“We can either sit back and become a ’lowest common denominator’ league, or we can leap forward.”

So in other words, huzzah for Saracens, Bath, Northampton, Tigers, Wasps and Quins (I assume these are the six in favour) and a large foxtrot oscar to the rest of English rugby.

Ah, thanks all. Sounds like it's pretty difficult to work out comparative spending then in all reality.

stub wrote:Ah, thanks all. Sounds like it's pretty difficult to work out comparative spending then in all reality.

I should think that a proper auditing firm, if given total access and records transparency, could work out a reasonable formula to level-set and equalise the numbers. It is their jobs, it's what they do. Mere mortals like us can't do it, methinks, because I suspect each organisation's numbers are like those Russian Matrushka dolls. What's the expression? A riddle wrapped in a mystery wrapped in an enigma? In other words, 19th century accounting practices in the 21st century. On the other hand, I also suspect no organisation would vote in favour of independent auditors because each probably has some dirty laundry and possibly some secret cash still tucked inside their proverbial mattresses.

"We're all probably crooked so let's nobody call the police?"

Good try!  

Saracens - we all agree with you now.  The Salary cap should be ended quickly to make sure it's not considered a rule breaker by the time somebody might be found guilty of breaking a salary cap rule.
Guilty! - but innocent of all charges....

I think all the Scottish figures will be publicly available. Certainly the SRU accounts are. http://www.edinburghrugby.org/about-us/annual-reports

London irisher, you would be wrong. At least tigers are against the removal out of that list.

In fact nobody could work out which of these six clubs he was talking about so I'm guessing he's just making it up

SecretFly wrote:"We're all probably crooked so let's nobody call the police?"

Good try!  

Not where I was going, mate.  In fact, 100% the opposite.  A transparent auditing process will expose any 'off-legal' behaviour.  

The point I was answering was someone saying it might be impossible to equalise the salary/compensation numbers from team to team as a consequence of the differing business models in each Rugby nation.  In other words we need to develop an open formula to identify the de facto salary and compensation for players in Ireland (under their salary/compensation system), compared to the Scots, to the Welsh, to the Italians, and the English.  All different business systems and accounting procedures.  I would guarantee much of this will appear positively Byzantine.  

Since all systems are different, this is not  about guilty or innocent of anything.  Simply a formula to standardise the salary/compensation numbers on a per-player basis to develop a benchmark to calculate a true salary level.  Which will then enable a true salary cap.  The gross payments per team may be different, but it doesn't matter because it is the net salary which is important.  Just the opposite of saying anyone or all are is/are crooked as justification for not doing this.    

It is only my suspicion (rooted in a lifelong cynical view of most human nature) that not everyone would vote in favour of open accounting for all Unions and their teams/clubs/regions/franchises.  The concern is that it might expose a little extra-curricular financing made possible only because of the lack of transparency.  Which I why I think this is such a good idea.  Now, amigo, disagree with that and I will cough up a cool million (tucked away in Griffith's mattress)...........

HammerofThunor wrote:'Apparently' they spend about the same as the English cap but there's no easily available figures that I've seen. Nor do I know what 'about' means.

Surely that's just speculation that they spend the same as the English cap because as you say there are no available figures.

What we do know is that the Irish have no salary cap so secretfly stop preaching to us English about the salary cap when you haven't got one.

beshocked wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:'Apparently' they spend about the same as the English cap but there's no easily available figures that I've seen. Nor do I know what 'about' means.

Surely that's just speculation that they spend the same as the English cap because as you say there are no available figures.

What we do know is that the Irish have no salary cap so secretfly stop preaching to us English about the salary cap when you haven't got one.

There's one decent poster (that I can remember, there may well be others) who has attended Ulster branch meetings of some sort and it was mentioned there. That's all we have to go on at the moment. Not speculation but not detailed or 'ironclad'.

nathan wrote:London irisher, you would be wrong. At least tigers are against the removal out of that list.

In fact nobody could work out which of these six clubs he was talking about so I'm guessing he's just making it up

I spoke to somebody last week who is connected to a Premiership club and was told that only Bath and Saracens, and possibly Gloucester want the cap removed.

Ozzy3213 wrote:

nathan wrote:London irisher, you would be wrong. At least tigers are against the removal out of that list. In fact nobody could work out which of these six clubs he was talking about so I'm guessing he's just making it up

I spoke to somebody last week who is connected to a Premiership club and was told that only Bath and Saracens, and possibly Gloucester want the cap removed.

Hands up - I certainly made up the six teams on my post, based on the idea that as the biggest/wealthiest clubs they would be the ones most likely to benefit from it, I didn't think it was likely that the teams who can't afford to spend to get near the top of the current cap would be in favour of it increasing !
That said I'm really pleased that the other big clubs have quickly came out and quashed any suggestion that they were in favour.

TJ wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Where are all the people who were arguing with me at the start of the season when I said that the power hungry clubs in England will not stop at getting their own way with Europe ? When I mentioned that they would not stop, and the next thing would be the salary cap I was tarred and feathered on here, but who is looking silly now ? I knew this would happen sooner rather than later, European rugby has been ruined, the next thing they will do is ruin their own game, look how the salaries in France are affecting the national side, it is not working out well for them is it ?

I agreed with you then.  Its the obvious next move.

The 6N will be next.

beshocked wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:'Apparently' they spend about the same as the English cap but there's no easily available figures that I've seen. Nor do I know what 'about' means.

Surely that's just speculation that they spend the same as the English cap because as you say there are no available figures.

What we do know is that the Irish have no salary cap so secretfly stop preaching to us English about the salary cap when you haven't got one.

I ain't preaching. Griffiths was.  I AM preaching about blind eyes being shown by the English to 'advantages' of Top14 during the lovely HEC debate.  Oh the Pro12 were bad people at everything, from cheating with cottonwool, to shoddy admin, to low crowds (snigger, scoff, muffled canned laughter) to not enough focus on real money, to cheapskatism, to not enough balls for good business and to having far too many 'advantages' in European contests.

But they ignored Top 14 and their particular advantages........................ until now.  I've always said the salary cap would be the next stage of the process in England - and here we are.  It'll become a repetitive topic until the PRL have their way and eventually 'coax' all members of the AP that it would be in everyone's interests to better be able to compete with French clubs on a level playing field.  Smaller clubs will not be able to claim that the top would leave them behind as I hear money gets divided evenly in some areas so the better success of the top in a cappless world, would trickle down to bigger salary budgets for even the lower guys (in theory!). More money will be the carrot to entice yet again.

As for the Irish lack of a capping system?  Try it, by all means - I mean the argument that is.  But like I said to a few others - have detailed financial statements and accounts to back your theory up that the four Irish Provinces have much bigger budgets than the top six or so AP sides.  Show me the fine details and I'll believe you - otherwise, keep it under your hat.  You might need the argument later on down the line when the heat genuinely does rise on the English capping system.  And, in time, it WILL

Blind eyes? Wasn't blind eyes from myself. I said that the French needed to be stopped but the Pro12 focussed it's criticism on the English clubs - conveniently ignoring the French.

Ireland like to play the poor man card - poor Irish with no salary cap and being effectively funded by the Irish rugby union. Must be tough.....

Equally I could say that you need detailed financial statements and accounts to show that the four Irish provinces don't have much bigger budgets than the top six or so AP sides.

All we know about the Irish provinces is that they don't have a salary cap.

You've kept your finances close to your chest. I wonder why... perhaps you have something to hide.....

Also you would need the financial statements of the top 6 sides in the AP to compare them to.

HammerofThunor wrote:

beshocked wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:'Apparently' they spend about the same as the English cap but there's no easily available figures that I've seen. Nor do I know what 'about' means.

Surely that's just speculation that they spend the same as the English cap because as you say there are no available figures.

What we do know is that the Irish have no salary cap so secretfly stop preaching to us English about the salary cap when you haven't got one.

There's one decent poster (that I can remember, there may well be others) who has attended Ulster branch meetings of some sort and it was mentioned there. That's all we have to go on at the moment. Not speculation but not detailed or 'ironclad'.

Well I leave it to you to decide if I am a decent poster
but Shane Logan went public in stating the 3 senior Irish provinces have salary levels (inclusive of central contracts) that are on a par with the top English clubs. I dont think he would have done so without being sure it was ok and accurate.

By extension he stated we cannot compete with the top French clubs.

I got the understanding that if the English cap was raised that Ulster at least would do what was necessary to ensure we 1) dont lose player to England and 2) can compete with them on the International market. Ulster are in rude financial health, as are, I believe, Leinster. Munster on the other hand have a debt from the Thomond development which has put some constraints ion them.

Connacht do not have the budget of the other three so I would assume their salary budget is more the bottom end of the Premership

beshocked wrote:Blind eyes? Wasn't blind eyes from myself. I said that the French needed to be stopped but the Pro12 focussed it's criticism on the English clubs - conveniently ignoring the French.

Your club representative organisation 'conveniently ignored' the French.  And you didn't have a whole lot to say about the evasion at the time Beshocked.  Much too busy holding up your boys' sneers at the shoddy, low attendance rate, laughable marketing expertise Pro12.

Ireland like to play the poor man card - poor Irish with no salary cap and being effectively funded by the Irish rugby union. Must be tough.....

We're much poorer than the French.  And if the English salary cap does go, we'll be much poorer than you guys.  Yeah, it'll be tough.  That's what the future was designed to be for the non-English/French clubs.  

Equally I could say that you need detailed financial statements and accounts to show that the four Irish provinces don't have much bigger budgets than the top six or so AP sides.

You could demand statements and accounts from me - but I'd much prefer you walk the walk of detail first.  Afterall, it's your accusations that popped up first.  You say Irish Provinces beat the spend of English clubs with their cappless ways.  Prove it or pocket the accusation.  You also keep thinking that when I accuse the French of having an advantage in salary budget terms that it somehow means that I'm accusing the English of having the advantage?  Maybe you need to listen before leaping.  I'm accusing the French of having the BIG advantage over all of us, and accusing the English of ignoring the advantage when they were finding fault with every little thing the Pro12 were doing.

All we know about the Irish provinces is that they don't have a salary cap.

You've kept your finances close to your chest. I wonder why... perhaps you have something to hide.....

More pass the buck?  Prove to me that the AP sides have detailed and expansive budget declarations easily found by someone like you.  Give me the figures for the top six.  You were the one who started this taunt.  Prove it's factual.  Prove the Irish Provinces are rolling in it by knocking up the figures for your side.  
Meanwhile - 'Something to hide'???- well, I don't know, but I believe there are some investigations going on in AP to work out the truth of that one, aren't there?

Also you would need the financial statements of the top 6 sides in the AP to compare them to.

Precisely.  I'm waiting on them to get the ball rolling.

secretfly he hasn't ignored the french. Nigel Wray has bemoaned the spending power of the French compared to the English in the past.

Everyone is poorer than the French.

I said that the Irish regions might beat the English clubs in spending, I didn't said they did. Without hard evidence you can't say they don't.

The only statement I made of fact was - you have no salary cap. With no salary cap you could spend more than the English clubs.

Why should I give you the figures of the top 6 AP sides? I don't have them - just as you don't have the Irish figures.

My point is that you have no moral high ground (which you claim continuously that you do with your lofty criticisms).

You have a holier than thou attitude when in reality you're the same as the rest of us - except we have a salary cap currently and you don't.

Nigel Wray simply wants to be competitive with the French clubs, it is them whose tune everyone dances to. Something I have said before - it's not a new view point.

beshocked wrote: With no salary cap you could spend more than the English clubs.

.

We could but we dont for 2 reasons:

1 - we dont want to go into serious debt and that is in itself a constraint - only spending what we get
2 - as the Provinces are not fully independant the money is spread round for the good of the game in Ireland as a whole.

The bottomline is the 3 senior provinces aim to be on a par with the top English clubs in the belief this will both make them competitive and stop all bar a couple of top players leaving.

beshocked wrote:
Nigel Wray simply wants to be competitive with the French clubs, it is them whose tune everyone dances to. Something I have said before - it's not a new view point.

This is the crux of the matter, and I guess it boils down to what you belive is more important, a couple of AP clubs being able to compete with the French, or a competitive AP as a result of a level(ish) playing field.

Fair enough geoff You put the constraints on yourself but hypothetically you could spend more - it's just you want to keep on par with the English clubs.



Ozzy3213 not just about the AP though is it? Also if we let the French get too ahead they'll take our best players in the end as well.

I don't agree with losing the cap but we do need to not lose too much ground to the French.

beshocked wrote:

My point is that you have no moral high ground (which you claim continuously that you do with your lofty criticisms).

You have a holier than thou attitude when in reality you're the same as the rest of us - except we have a salary cap currently and you don't.

Nigel Wray simply wants to be competitive with the French clubs, it is them whose tune everyone dances to. Something I have said before - it's not a new view point.

Your last point first.  Wray simply wants to be competitive with the French?  
Yes - don't we all.  

That entails spending big money - BIG money.  Over and over again - season after season.  That's how Wray knows it's done, that's how most clubs in the AP knows how it's done and that's the future - big salaries.  Let's not forget, France DO HAVE a nominal capping system.  So it's never the words 'salary' or 'cap' but the genuine yearly spending capacity.

So Wray says we simply need to be competitive with the French.  And yet, a host of you guys here are defending the idea that most of the PRL clubs don't want to become competitive with the French - ie, don't want an end to a genuine capping system.  That's a little bizarre as either Wray makes sense or he doesn't make sense.

I'd say he makes sense - but it brings me back to my point.  There was a way to save the capping system for lower AP sides AND to be more competitive with the French.  There was a way.  It could have been added to the negotiating list during the HEC meltdown.  It could have been another English condition (they had a few!).  But no, there was hush on the French and their generous capping system from the PRL.  That was a debate for another time.  
The time is coming - but rather than suggesting French teams be forced to cap salaries for European competition, it'll be more a case of 'let's join them'.


As for High moral ground. The "Same as the Rest"?  We're down to one auto entry for ERCC - England and France remain as they were before the war - six each.  No, we've changed.  Our chances (and Welsh chances, and Scottish chances, and Italian chances) of winning have diminished as English and French club chances have increased.  That's fact.  That's what the new organisational rules have brought about.  That's not being the same as the rest.

English rugby had a real chance to clip the spending feathers of the French during ERCC negotiations but purposefully chose not to. That's the only fact that keeps popping up.

Now, I'm off for the Christmas/New Year Period, beshocked.   Boy, we don't see eye to eye on virtually anything that happens in this world  But the debate is more boisterous and hearty because of it.  Have a nice Christmas..... I'll probably be back for the war sometime around 6N time!

I would personally put a cap on debt, prohibit "gifts or interest free loans" from wealthy owners but otherwise let clubs spend the revenue they generate however they see fit (so no salary cap whatsoever).

Yes, that means that successful clubs off the field with loads of fans will have an advantage, but frankly that's how it should be in my opinion.

Secretfly surprisingly I agree with most of that.

The English should have looked to keep the French in line but surely that would have led to the French and Pro12 joining forces?

Hope you have a nice Christmas and happy new year too.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Yes, that means that successful clubs off the field with loads of fans will have an advantage, but frankly that's how it should be in my opinion.

FES the problem is that very few clubs could actually spend much more than they are already without the sugar-daddies sorry "benefactors" chucking money at them - do you think Saracens would be a sustainable business without the Saffer money topping them up?

Irish Londoner wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Yes, that means that successful clubs off the field with loads of fans will have an advantage, but frankly that's how it should be in my opinion.

FES the problem is that very few clubs could actually spend much more than they are already without the sugar-daddies sorry "benefactors" chucking money at them - do you think Saracens would be a sustainable business without the Saffer money topping them up?

Did you not read his entire post?

funnyExiledScot wrote:I would personally put a cap on debt, prohibit "gifts or interest free loans" from wealthy owners but otherwise let clubs spend the revenue they generate however they see fit (so no salary cap whatsoever).

I find it rather odd that no one actually wants to comment on the mechanism to determine the de facto spend per player and full roster for each club/franchise/region/etc..  Once that is done - and it can only be developed by one of the large accounting firms with no stake in the game - then we can accurately discuss a salary cap.  My gut feeling is that won't happen because each Union and most clubs/franchises/regions/etc. know they likely will be found as doing something less than squeaky clean.  Not saying anything gross, perhaps, but less than perfectly clean.  

For me, I wouldn't worry about it.  Start the process, even if just with the UK and ROI unions and teams and see what the results show.  Then an intelligent decision can be made regarding whether to compete with the French clubs or not.  Again, my sense it that it will not be possible with current funding levels for any UK or ROI team to compete.  At least it will be open.  

Regarding any statements that the 'PRL' wants to eliminate the cap, we now see that is not accurate.  Most clubs in the Premiership have made statements against eliminating the cap.  Clearly this is seen as critical for competitive balance and financial security.  And for me, the way forwards.  The only question is how to normalise it across UK and ROI.  Forget the French.

Last season I thought the Pro12 and Aviva premiership would eventually join up if the French continued to pull away from the rest. This season, looking at the widening gap between the French and the rest, I think its going to happen sooner than we think even if there are major hurdles to overcome.