Saracens

Ok following the match thread and just the forum in general, it appears now that the European cup has been sorted, it looks like Sarries are back to being the arch villians of NH rugby.

So i would like to ask this. Why do they attract so much dislike?

Its full of saffers! 5 in the whole squad(inc acadamy)
They ground share! Nope got a nice shiney new stadium
They have no support! still fill 10k most weeks(ok on here its just beshocked and myself)
Their boring! Nope second highest trys scored in AP and higest in HC
Their a small club! Everyone has to start small(unless your told your now a region)
Their new money!! Sorry they played by the rules when it was the amature days and did not pay players like some of the bigger old money clubs hence they stayed small
They have Borthwick/Ashton/Farrell....!! Yep we do, funny how people only see the bad when they are no longer your players. And im sure your side is full of lovable players! Hartley/Youngs/Care/Clarke........

So i hope that covered all the old repetative stuff. So why are they still the side no one likes?

Don't know - don't understand myself.. They're successful so that never attracts love.

Possibly their willingness to try new ways to promote themselves, with some going against the grain for rugby traditionalists.

Hey! Care is lovable!

If your willing to engage with me honestly and at face value- i.e not hang me out to dry for feeling how I feel, I'll try and explain why so many Irish fans dislike Saracens. Because I've never met a single Irish fan who has the time of day for Saracens, not one in any circumstances ever, and I'll try and explain why.

I appreciate that you're very passionate about your team, and thats commendable, I just had to add that preface to make sure that this isn't going to be a witch hunt thread against people who are ambivalent towards Saracens at best- they are entitled to their opinions on your team. I understand it's hurtful for you and other Sarries fans when other fans dislike you and passions get inflamed so I'm going to engage so long as the discussion is respectful and measured.

I think there are two main reasons for the almost universal dislike, and the first one is to to do with fear over the commercialisation of the game. BUT. I don't think that is the biggest reason. There has been chapter and verse written on commercialisation, the European Cup dispute etc on here, most of it needlessly spiteful and emotionally charged- I'm not even gonna touch it with a barge pole.

I think the biggest reason Saracens are incredibly unpopular across the Irish sea is because we can't figure them out. They seem like a hollow club. I know what values our teams represent to the people who support them. As Ulster said in their preview video for the Heineken Cup quarterfinal 'Remember when you play at Ravenhill, you are not just playing 15 men. You are playing the entire province of Ulster.' The mechanics of professional rugby necessitate that our provinces are run as businesses but they are extensions of our communities. The heart of what the provinces are is the communities they represent. The fans are the heart and soul of what we are, who we are. The fact Saracens lack that makes them seem just like a paper tiger. When you play Saracens, you play Saracens. It's not about a community, a people. It's just a team with 15 players. Everything that is so incredibly precious to us about the sport of rugby in Ireland- sport in general in Ireland- links back to community and belonging. Kids who grow up to represent their province. It's an incredible honour and a privilege for a kid for Limerick to play for Munster. It's what sustains that whole area. Is it a privilege for a London kid to play for Saracens? I don't know. From the outside it seems like everything that we love about rugby, seems to be absent from Saracens make-up. And in place of it instead there is marketing gimmicks and plans to make the game more commercial, and massive amounts of private investment that allows the club to be run at a loss. The fact that Sarries released a couple of videos which seemed exclusively aimed at taking the urine out of that element of our support, including a hamfisted overdub of the afore-mentioned video, means they really aren't very welcome at Ravenhill to be honest. We've had great times win or lose with great clubs who come over with a healthy mutual respect, like Saints and Leicester. I thought it was crazy that the club themselves released videos that seemed designed to whip up ill will from Ulster fans and then never apologised. Even a Saracens fan must be able to admit that lacked class?

That links back to the reason Clermont are so incredibly popular in Ireland- because of their amazing fans. When they come over there's a mutual recognition of the similarities between their support and our support. They are from this small town where everybody is legitimately rugby mad. They have thousands of fans that follow them all around Europe- their fans are incredible. I was gutted when I read about the result yesterday, but not because Saracens won. Those Clermont fans are the most passionate in Europe and that scoreline is devastating for them.

I never cared about Clermont until I heard the noise their fans made. Bright yellow noise making lunatics. Since they visited Ravenhill they've been my second team. Their just like us. I've had good craic with fans from all around Europe, including English and French sides. I would welcome back Northampton, Leicester, Clermont, Stade any time. Really top class rugby people. But I honestly didn't meet any Saracens at the recent game which was disappointing. There were just not very many fans at all- it seemed like Ulster fans bought most of their allocation.

At the end of the day, I'm sure I could sit down and have  paint with yourself or other likeminded Saracens fans and we'd have a bit of craic and at the end of the day we'd all get on and understand each other better. But that hasn't really happened because Saracens fans don't really travel so the fans don't have a chance to represent their club. Which adds to the perception that they are basically a small club being used as a vehicle for the ambitions of a few wealthy individuals as opposed to being built on the back of a real rugby community. That perception may be unfair- but it is widespread, for better or worse.

I don't really have much time for Saracens, I'm sorry if that upsets you but I'm not going to lie about how I feel and on top of that it is absolutely nothing to do with anything personal with any fan of the side, or even any player or coach. I hope that you can appreciate it comes from a deeper thing; a fundamental difference in values. But even then I was ambivalent about them until Ed Griffiths role in the ERC dispute and those classless videos. I don't care if they win the European Cup, but I wouldn't take any pleasure in it either.

If Munster make the final I'll be cheering for them, otherwise I'll have little interest. Even if you disagree with me passionately I hope you appreciate that I'm trying to be honest and fair   

You could say any of that about the Welsh regions Notch, unlike the Irish regions they are not genuine, and it will have to be taken with a grain of salt if an Osprey player comes out and says "Remember, at the Liberty you are playing the entire province of...some arbitrary defined region with towns around Swansea".

Well Notch, I am Irish and I have a lot of time for Sarries. I may be one of the few but I actually like their playing style. I don't go into club politics, just take things on face value and so I like Sarries. Met a few of their fans and they have always come across as decent people with a love of the great game.

Even though I expected them to get humped yesterday, I was cheering them on and very much enjoyed their victory.

I hate all Irish teams as I'm tired of hearing how great they are and how they do so much for the good of the game despite three out of four of them having huge budgets compared to others in the Rabo.

It's a joke how they think they are always right and their way is the only way.

I don't mind Sarries when they play like they did yesterday, great stuff to watch.

Clermont have incredible fans, the best I've seen at the Stoop

It's funny because Saracens have one of the best community setups in the country and win awards based on it.

Do you feel the same way about London Wasps and Harlequins? As neither, on the outside, represent any specific community.

Saracens seem to have two sides. The open brash commercialism side that gets onto the paper so often and the traditional community side that doesn't.

Not that I'm a Saracens fan of course.

From an English point of view there was a lot of disapproval of how they handled releasing all those players a few years ago. Also Wray comes across as a complete   I don't agree with those that suggest he's in it for the money but he does seem a   

Sarries are a relatively new club dining at the top table along with the likes of Saints,tigers, etc. They've achieved loads in a small amount of time which seems to be upsetting ppl. I salute them tbh. Forward thinking and innovative. Sarries haven't got the huge traditional background, fan base, trophy laden history to dwell on. On the face of it, they're a north London rugby club with a small fan base come good.
Notch, Ulster seem a attractive rugby place to be now. HC pedigree, top crowds, always around the top of the pro12,Ravenhills developed. What if Ulster start buying big names and adopt a Saracens style approach to marketing themselves?

Well Notch I can see that you really tried to explain an answer to the OP which I found useful thanks. There is no doubt that Saracens are a different animal to the Irish provinces and not understanding them does make it difficult for you to identify with them I guess. I don't know much about them but they are a club with history and I find it surprising that they don't have a bigger (obvious) fan base. I guess they've had to move around a bit and in doing so have lost some of their identity/geographical base. Maybe as they settle into their new home they will renew their identity and develop a bigger travelling following. They're going the right way about it anyway IMO as success on the field will get everyone's attention and help them build the club.

I used to like Saracens when Richard Hill played for them. An absolute privilege to be at his last game (against Munster in HCup semi). I liked their fans too. Very gracious in defeat.

But that was then.

I can't stand the pig ignorant manners thats meant to be marketing that they shove at people now.

They boast they had 80,000 at a game a month ago in Wembley. Its the ERC's fault now that they only got 25K (or whatever) to a semi.

Where did all those 80,000 new Saracen fans go? Why were they not at the game yesterday if this is effective marketing?

HammerofThunor wrote:Saracens seem to have two sides. The open brash commercialism side that gets onto the paper so often and the traditional community side that doesn't.

Not that I'm a Saracens fan of course.

From an English point of view there was a lot of disapproval of how they handled releasing all those players a few years ago. Also Wray comes across as a complete   I don't agree with those that suggest he's in it for the money but he does seem a   

Thats it. It's about perception, I wouldn't say most people know about that- people don't see passionate fans or community work, they just see Nigel Wray and Ed Griffiths with a side of Chris Ashton! Unfortunately Saracens are their own worst enemies in that regard. EverIything they do in terms of the press etc. seems to reinforce the most negative parts of their image. It's a shame as they play some good rugby

Breadvan wrote:Notch, Ulster seem a attractive rugby place to be now. HC pedigree, top crowds, always around the top of the pro12,Ravenhills developed. What if Ulster start buying big names and adopt a Saracens style approach to marketing themselves?

Well we already have had some big names, which has worked to a certain extent, but as a short-term strategy. The thing is Pienaar, who loves playing for and living in Ulster is a folk hero. Someone like John Afoa seems to be less well thought of, which is perhaps unfair because his wife just never liked living here and went back to NZ. The problems with him have stemmed from personal issues which are fully understandable.

When Ulster first started buying in foreign players near the beginning of the professional era I was initially very hostile to that, because it's really not what the provinces are about or for and we weren't buying quality players. We were buying journeymen and too many. I was very sad and felt like I was losing my team when I saw some of these guys who were just over to earn a buck in our jersey without the same passion and pride that defined our homegrown players. So I was very unhappy with the transfer policy because the reason we exist is to give a platform to talented rugby players from the province of Ulster and to produce players that can go on to play international rugby. Thats our entire raison d'être. The number of players we bring in has to strike the right balance of making the team stronger without getting in the way of that.

Two things happened to change my mind; one some of our foreign players started really delivering like Steinmetz and Justin Harrison etc. and showed that it means as much to them to win in our jersey as it did to our homegrown players. Secondly, the attitude of some homegrown players just wasn't good enough. The imports were giving more effort and showing more pride in playing for Ulster than some of the local lads; bad apples who have since been weeded out but still. People can see what it means to players to represent Ulster and thats what they are judged on, not their nationality.

Going forward there are two rules that would really turn me off being an Ulster fan if broken. Imported players must remain in the minority, the long-term strategy has to be promote homegrown talent. And the players who come in have to buy into what it means to be an Ulster player.

Its here where I genuinely and truly believe the IRFU is good for the game in Ireland because whatever some chairman or coach thinks the Union will never let our teams put the cart before the horse regarding importing players. Instead of the buying in of multiple low quality foreign players our system will always be orientated around a few marquee players and a bedrock of homegrown players. That bedrock is of fundamental importance and it doesn't matter what the budget is, that has to stay.

The current IRFU rules are 4 players who can't represent Ireland and a 'project player'. I would like us to stop the project player thing tbh. All Unions abuse this rule and the IRB needs to change it. 4 marquee foreign players in amongst Irish qualified players who have pledged their future to playing for Ireland, with the core of the squad being from our own Academy. Thats what a province should be and I would oppose any deviation from that model.

newbies doing well, especially if they have "bought" their way to success are always going to be pilloried.

i like saracens and have enjoyed their matches i have seen this year. i also like the fact that they are trying new stuff to bring new people to their games. i hope some of it works. better tried and failed than never tried at all.

their defense is a thing of beauty and will definitely worry toulon if they win.

i would imagine some of saracens extra unpopularity in ulster right now is down to having knocked them out of the last 2 HC QFs.

Just to note my ambivalence towards Sarries (I dont hate them or even dislike them) started around the 2000 season...the big spending sarries thinking it was a walkover against Munster...The two wins were as enjoyable as any for Munster...there was a certain arrogance and swagger (without substance that other English clubs didnt seem to have.

The new Sarries seem to me and a lot of people to be a continuation of that version....

The only things I have against Sarries are:

A) their gameplan is perfectly suited to defeat us even if we play well which is a pain in the bum

B) I do sometimes struggle to see how they can keep a squad of their size and quality below the cap

C) that's it

ChequeredJersey wrote:B) I do sometimes struggle to see how they can keep a squad of their size and quality below the cap

I agree, but I think I am in a glasshouse so will put down the stones. My only real issue with Sarries is Ed Griffiths - but that is a personal thing. I would not pee on him if he was on fire.

I suppose when your team is living/training in West London/Surrey, the players will always be on more money to cover the expenses of housing etc. But still, the difference in who Sarries can bring in and who we can whilst both holding onto our homemade players is galling

Crazy decision to give a yellow. Why are refs giving cards for accidental collisions these days? Why does the Toulon player get a yellow and not the Munster player? Both involved in an accidental collision.

Woops wrong thread.

Knackeredknees I think a lot of animosity comes from the PR stunts by Edward Griffiths, plus Nigel Wray is unpopular for his outspoken views.

Personally I think some fans get too easily whipped into a frenzy. E.g. In regards to Ashton's dive

Plus Saracens are seen as upstarts battling above our level.

I think also there is a serious lack of understanding of Saracens. Certainly seems like that in Ireland. There is an expectation that a club that has been nomadic for a long time and has serious competition from football should magically be getting huge turnouts. Unfortunately Saracens haven't had the benefit of being in the HC every year! I think Sarries will get there but it takes time.

Irish club football/soccer is basically non existent - it's that small. The Irish regions have a much easier job drumming up support. The rugby support has had time to take roots in the regions. In comparison Saracens must compete with truly global football clubs in their catchment area like Tottenham and Arsenal.

It's easier for some clubs who are rugby towns with much less competition. E.g. What else I sports wise is there in Bath or Exeter bar rugby?

Beshocked, how many times do you have to be told that Irish soccer fans follow English teams? Most of my mates don't even know Munster are playing in a SF right now.
But they all know how many points Liverpool are on.

Leinsterfan how many times do I need to tell you I am talking about IRISH football not ENGLISH football?

Liverpool are not an Irish club! It's not as if it's an easy 1 hour trip to Anfield from Munster either!

Whats the difference? Irish fans support them like their Irish clubs...Just because they support an english team doesn't mean they give a damn about irish rugby.

I can easily see how Saracens can be percieved negatively.  But their attempts to broaden their 'brand' and widen awareness is good for the growth of Rugby.  

More that that, I think of Burger's match yesterday.  Really one of the great matches by a Flanker.  He didn't play like that because for love of money - that came straight from core.  Heart and soul, and team and fans.  Character.  How can anyone dislike a club which has someonel like that?  

Though I agree with Hammer, Wray does indeed come across as a rectum.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Whats the difference? Irish fans support them like their Irish clubs...Just because they support an english team doesn't mean they give a damn about irish rugby.

Won't affect attendance in the same way though. English football is in direct competition with the AP when it's not with the Irish provinces.

Especially in London. London has an extremely large number of football teams.

For me, take your pick from Wray, Griffiths and their extremely crass marketing stunts - that being said, I've never met anything but really nice Sarries rugby fans at Sandy Park (can't say the same about Vic Rd, and haven't been to Allianz Pk yet) - I've also never met beshocked

It may not effect it quite as much but it is still in direct competition. I know guys who travel yearly to see Man U but have never been to the Aviva.

How they are still allowed to exist baffles me, their overall deficit for the last seven completed seasons is £32.7 million.

This is the main problem for me.

Manu's Boxing Coach wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Whats the difference? Irish fans support them like their Irish clubs...Just because they support an english team doesn't mean they give a damn about irish rugby.

Won't affect attendance in the same way though. English football is in direct competition with the AP when it's not with the Irish provinces.

GAA leagues games are on at the moment. In fact Dublin were playing Mayo at the same time in the same city (Croke Park) when Leinster were playing Munster in the Pro12 in the Aviva.

Attendance at L v M: 50,000. 750K watched it on tv. Dublin GAA's sponsorship is worth more than Leinster's, so that is some achievement to get those numbers at the same time.

Tipperary were playing Clare (all Ireland winners last year) in the League yesterday in Cork. Delighted that Tipp won by a point.

I think some Irish fans just don't understand Saracens and they can't be bothered to find out about them either. There willing to spend the time to read the negative stories and anything about there sometimes odd marketing strategies but not about what they add to the community and grassroots.

I do get the impression from some Irish fans they think there the only ones adding to the game and everyone else is set out to take take take. Of course that may not be true but its the impression I get.

Sin é wrote:

Manu's Boxing Coach wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Whats the difference? Irish fans support them like their Irish clubs...Just because they support an english team doesn't mean they give a damn about irish rugby.

Won't affect attendance in the same way though. English football is in direct competition with the AP when it's not with the Irish provinces.

GAA leagues games are on at the moment. In fact Dublin were playing Mayo at the same time in the same city (Croke Park) when Leinster were playing Munster in the Pro12 in the Aviva.

Attendance at L v M: 50,000. 750K watched it on tv.  Dublin GAA's sponsorship is worth more than Leinster's, so that is some achievement to get those numbers at the same time.

Tipperary were playing Clare (all Ireland winners last year) in the League yesterday in Cork. Delighted that Tipp won by a point.

you're still miles away from an All IReland though...   

Sin é wrote:Delighted that Tipp won by a point.

Booooooh.

VinceWLB wrote:How they are still allowed to exist baffles me, their overall deficit for the last seven completed seasons is £32.7 million.

This is the main problem for me.

But not with the French clubs? Just because Clermont have great support their ridiculous investment doesn't matter?

The main problem with Sarries is as Notch pointed out they're a club that since professionalism has struggled to find a home and an ethos behind the club. That in itself isn't really an issue as when they were in Watford and trundling along as a mid-table team no one really cared. They could even have gained underdog status. But Sarries in recent years have found success before gaining a loyal and substantial support. As said by Notch they seem hollow. So instead of being an underdog that has gradually built up support and become successful, they are successful side that have been accused as heartless and unlikeable.

beshocked wrote:Knackeredknees I think a lot of animosity comes from the PR stunts by Edward Griffiths, plus Nigel Wray is unpopular for his outspoken views.

Personally I think some fans get too easily whipped into a frenzy. E.g. In regards to Ashton's dive

Plus Saracens are seen as upstarts battling above our level.

I think also there is a serious lack of understanding of Saracens. Certainly seems like that in Ireland. There is an expectation that a club that has been nomadic for a long time and has serious competition from football should magically be getting huge turnouts. Unfortunately Saracens haven't had the benefit of being in the HC every year! I think Sarries will get there but it takes time.

Irish club football/soccer is basically non existent - it's that small. The Irish regions have a much easier job drumming up support. The rugby support has had time to take roots in the regions. In comparison Saracens must compete with truly global football clubs in their catchment area like Tottenham and Arsenal.

It's easier for some clubs who are rugby towns with much less competition. E.g. What else I sports wise is there in Bath or Exeter bar rugby?

Beshocked, the biggest competition to rugby in Ireland is not domestic soccer which is a joke but Gaelic football, which has by far the biggest player numbers in Ireland, fantastic club facilities, has loads of money (much though they might deny it) and has the 3rd/4th biggest stadium in Europe in Croke Park. Gaelic football and hurling is rooted in the local community and parish and there lies the challenge for rugby. And as for domestic soccer, Loads of junior soccer teams still play on municipal pitches, change on the side of the pitch and have no showers etc.

That's why the likes of Sean O'Brien and a load of the Munster lads from non-traditional rugby areas like Kerry and Tipperary are so important in expanding rugby beyond its traditional roots in southside Dublin, posh parts of Cork, posh bits of Belfast and Limerick (where it's never been a posh man's sport).

ME-109 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Manu's Boxing Coach wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Whats the difference? Irish fans support them like their Irish clubs...Just because they support an english team doesn't mean they give a damn about irish rugby.

Won't affect attendance in the same way though. English football is in direct competition with the AP when it's not with the Irish provinces.

GAA leagues games are on at the moment. In fact Dublin were playing Mayo at the same time in the same city (Croke Park) when Leinster were playing Munster in the Pro12 in the Aviva.

Attendance at L v M: 50,000. 750K watched it on tv.  Dublin GAA's sponsorship is worth more than Leinster's, so that is some achievement to get those numbers at the same time.

Tipperary were playing Clare (all Ireland winners last year) in the League yesterday in Cork. Delighted that Tipp won by a point.

you're still miles away from an All IReland though...   

Closer than Cork   

Sin é wrote:

Manu's Boxing Coach wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Whats the difference? Irish fans support them like their Irish clubs...Just because they support an english team doesn't mean they give a damn about irish rugby.

Won't affect attendance in the same way though. English football is in direct competition with the AP when it's not with the Irish provinces.

GAA leagues games are on at the moment. In fact Dublin were playing Mayo at the same time in the same city (Croke Park) when Leinster were playing Munster in the Pro12 in the Aviva.

Attendance at L v M: 50,000. 750K watched it on tv.  Dublin GAA's sponsorship is worth more than Leinster's, so that is some achievement to get those numbers at the same time.

Tipperary were playing Clare (all Ireland winners last year) in the League yesterday in Cork. Delighted that Tipp won by a point.

Fair point. The Premier league definitely isn't the only reason that Sarries don't get the same crowds as the Irish sides. But in repost, if you look at the attendances for football matches in London on Saturday I think they would still be over 50,000 and that's with only Fulham playing in London in the premier league. Also Munster and Leinster make up at least half of the rugby support in Ireland, Sarries is obviously no where near that so that affects support surely.

The GAA's biggest event runs through the summer though so in winter rugby has far less competition than in England I'd say. By the way what are we even arguing about this for?

Anyway

ME-109 wrote:you're still miles away from an All IReland though...   

Clare will suffer from second season syndrome.
Kilkenny are cr@p now
Dublin are good but not good enough
Galway wildly inconsistent

Only Cork can stop Tipp

Manu's Boxing Coach wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:How they are still allowed to exist baffles me, their overall deficit for the last seven completed seasons is £32.7 million.

This is the main problem for me.

But not with the French clubs? Just because Clermont have great support their ridiculous investment doesn't matter?

Toulon for instance are making a slight profit, Clermont doesn't invest as much as Toulon so i would be surprised if they are operating at a loss.

Manu's Boxing Coach wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Manu's Boxing Coach wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Whats the difference? Irish fans support them like their Irish clubs...Just because they support an english team doesn't mean they give a damn about irish rugby.

Won't affect attendance in the same way though. English football is in direct competition with the AP when it's not with the Irish provinces.

GAA leagues games are on at the moment. In fact Dublin were playing Mayo at the same time in the same city (Croke Park) when Leinster were playing Munster in the Pro12 in the Aviva.

Attendance at L v M: 50,000. 750K watched it on tv.  Dublin GAA's sponsorship is worth more than Leinster's, so that is some achievement to get those numbers at the same time.

Tipperary were playing Clare (all Ireland winners last year) in the League yesterday in Cork. Delighted that Tipp won by a point.

Fair point. The Premier league definitely isn't the only reason that Sarries don't get the same crowds as the Irish sides. But in repost, if you look at the attendances for football matches in London on Saturday I think they would still be over 50,000 and that's with only Fulham playing in London in the premier league. Also Munster and Leinster make up at least half of the rugby support in Ireland, Sarries is obviously no where near that so that affects support surely.

London has a population of about 12m. The whole island of Ireland is about half that.

Interesting fact - All Ireland finals get a better attendance than Aviva Rugby finals even though a county like Killkenny who feature regularly in finals has a population of 90K.

Munster is probably the most competitive GAA province in Ireland in that any one of the county's could win the league/Munster title.

Feckless Rogue wrote:The GAA's biggest event runs through the summer though so in winter rugby has far less competition than in England I'd say. By the way what are we even arguing about this for?

Anyway

ME-109 wrote:you're still miles away from an All IReland though...   

Clare will suffer from second season syndrome.
Kilkenny are cr@p now
Dublin are good but not good enough
Galway wildly inconsistent

Only Cork can stop Tipp

With pleasure....same as it ever was.

Meath for Sam

Why has this morphed into another Irish row?

Sarries do a hell of a lot in their local community. A lot of it goes unrecognised. They are the nearest pro club to where I live and local papers often feature Sarries' charity an support work with local clubs.

In the early days of professionalism I went to watch their team of superstars at Vicarage Road a few times. They were getting massive crowds (for club rugby) at the time. Many of the 'fans' were Watford FC season ticket holders on cheap deals, and the atmosphere was sometimes more akin to a football match. Including opposition fans being verbally abused in and out of the ground.

It's all changed though with Allianz Park, the development of which accounts for a huge chunk of their losses.

The current bunch of players seem to have a sense of unity and purpose that equals anything in Europe. You may not like them but I suspect other fans are gonna have to get used to them being at the business end of competitions for a while.

Griffiths is another matter.

+1 Hound.

Hound of Harrow wrote:Why has this morphed into another Irish row?

Sarries do a hell of a lot in their local community. A lot of it goes unrecognised. They are the nearest pro club to where I live and local papers often feature Sarries' charity an support work with local clubs.

In the early days of professionalism I went to watch their team of superstars at Vicarage Road a few times. They were getting massive crowds (for club rugby) at the time. Many of the 'fans' were Watford FC season ticket holders on cheap deals, and the atmosphere was sometimes more akin to a football match. Including opposition fans being verbally abused in and out of the ground.

It's all changed though with Allianz Park, the development of which accounts for a huge chunk of their losses.

The current bunch of players seem to have a sense of unity and purpose that equals anything in Europe. You may not like them but I suspect other fans are gonna have to get used to them being at the business end of competitions for a while.

Griffiths is another matter.

A veritable Mother Teresa of Rugby no?   

Interesting people say sarries are a hollow team with no history.... This is a club who introduced jason Leonard, Ben Clarke, Richard hill, tony diprose etc at the end of the amateur era.

They actually are a genuine club, not a created franchise like those in Ireland for instance... Yes they existed but not as clubs... They were representative regions... Just like the north of England, midlands and london were when the ABs visited in the amateur era.

They weren't a heavyweight in the amateur era... They were a tier 2 london club behind quins and wasps but no others. But to say they have no history and have simply done a Toulon is a little off the mark.

Personally I think it's the brand of rugby they play. It's a little lukewarm, they win and score tries but the tries are often quite run of the mill, they grind out results.
I wouldn't say their fans are diehard either but outside of say Gloucester I think that's England fans in general in my humble opinion.... You rarely see an England fan sobbing into his beer post defeat. Nothing wrong with that, it's just the stiff upper lip the english middle classes are famous for.

fa0019 wrote:Interesting people say sarries are a hollow team with no history.... This is a club who introduced jason Leonard, Ben Clarke, Richard hill, tony diprose etc at the end of the amateur era.

They actually are a genuine club, not a created franchise like those in Ireland for instance... Yes they existed but not as clubs... They were representative regions... Just like the north of England, midlands and london were when the ABs visited in the amateur era.

They weren't a heavyweight in the amateur era... They were a tier 2 london club behind quins and wasps but no others. But to say they have no history and have simply done a Toulon is a little off the mark.

Personally I think it's the brand of rugby they play. It's a little lukewarm, they win and score tries but the tries are often quite run of the mill, they grind out results.
I wouldn't say their fans are diehard either but outside of say Gloucester I think that's England fans in general in my humble opinion.... You rarely see an England fan sobbing into his beer post defeat. Nothing wrong with that, it's just the stiff upper lip the english middle classes are famous for.

  not just   uninformed...try again.

ME - trust me, not many fans of clubs in the AP like the guy. He recently hailed the resolution of the sad conflict over the future of European club rugby's competitions as a triumph for the AP.

Conveniently brushing aside the huge influence that senior figures at the RFU and other interested parties brought to bear.

The RFU are not in a position to control his utterances, but Premiership Rugby should tell him to stfu for a while and let things settle down, rather than fanning the flames of a, now resolved, problem where few came out of it with credit.