The Most Underrated English Rugby Union Player of All Time Revealed

It is no secret that the British public and media love to over hype their indigenous players. However, one man has for his whole career managed to escape such universal praise. His stats read like a moneyball/fantasy football aficionado wet dream given the lack of hype. He cannot be mentioned by name in case he becomes hyped beyond control.

In 302 club matches he has amassed 2892 points which at one point made him the Aviva Premiership all time top points scorer (since been overtaken by Hodgson due to two stints abroad). He also has two Heineken cup winners medals and multiple AP winners medals. In his maiden season in the French Top 14 he was the second highest points scorer with 235 points for a mid table team.

His club scoring average is only 2 points per games less than Wilko's and two more than Owen Farrell and Charlie Hodgson's averages. For England he averaged a meager 6.2 points per game in his 17 caps but in his 7 starts against good opposition he averaged 11.7 points. Wilko's career average is 12.9 for England, Hodgson 7 and Farrell 10.

Why does this man not routinely fail to get the accolades he deserves?

I know. Imagine if he were Welsh!!

funnyExiledScot wrote:I know. Imagine if he were Welsh!!

??

As for the OP, is it Andy Goode?

GunsGerms wrote:It is no secret that the British public and media love to over hype their indigenous players.

All public and media do it.

The Irish probably more than most.

Back to the "main point", I think most fans know his value.

Cyril wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:It is no secret that the British public and media love to over hype their indigenous players.

All public and media do it.

The Irish probably more than most.

Haha. Love your work Cyril.

True though ain't it Guns. The Irish (and your media) do tend to get frothy-mouthed over any bit of potential

Some do some don't. It is more of a habit in Ireland to down play everything almost to an annoying extent at times. A bit of high expectation setting can be a good thing sometimes. Granted Gerry Thornley tends to get over excited about everything and possibly Neil Francis too. I prefer to read what ex players have to say like Liam Toland and Alan Quinlan and Dallaglio in England. All have their biases but for the most part they are a good read.

GunsGerms wrote:Some do some don't. It is more of a habit in Ireland to down play everything. Gerry Thornley tends to get over excited about everything and possibly Neil Francis too. I prefer to read what ex players have to say like Liam Toland and Alan Quinlan and Dallaglio in England. All have their biases but for the most part they are a good read.

Really? It's not what I see from a lot of the Irish press articles/comments posted on here.

I guess we all see our nations differently from the inside. After all, people say it's a very British thing to be self-deprecating

The Saint wrote:As for the OP, is it Andy Goode?

The man needs no introduction.

Goode has been an excellent club player and will go down as an English premiership legend. Having a fine season at Wasps too.

There's no shame in not quite making it at the international level.

I think he was unfortunate not to get more England caps. He usually played quite well for fairly out of sorts England sides in a time when there was a high turnover of players and managers.

GunsGerms wrote:
Why does this man not routinely fail to get the accolades he deserves?

He's too fat.

Bad hair

yappysnap wrote:Bad hair

lack of hair

I do like his gloves though

Cyril wrote:Goode has been an excellent club player and will go down as an English premiership legend. Having a fine season at Wasps too.

There's no shame in not quite making it at the international level.

I thought he was a good player that very unfairly became the scapegoat when England had a run of bad to average performances. He was good for England with ball in hand, if the team had another kicker in the starting XV then I think he would have gone on to get more caps. It's surprising that England still don't have a 2nd kicker in their starting team - that seems to be protocol these days.

Andy Goode was a fair to good player. But when Sir Johnny came along he was no longer required.

majesticimperialman wrote:Andy Goode was a fair to good player. But when Sir Johnny came along he was no longer required.

The best part of Wilko's international career was already done by the time Andy Goode made his debut.

Great premiership player and club servant and excelled behind one of the best premiership packs in history. His experience serves him well now and he has some great games alongside some poor ones but he never stood out on the international stage, which for me would be a qualifying factor for the most underrated player. It used to be Richard Hill that topped this list but he has done so for so long now that i don't think we can call him underated anymore !!! In my eyes the most underrated players in english union are probably guys like Mike Catt and Simon Shaw.

There's a lot of goodwill towards Andy Goode among supporters, and he has the respect of other players in the game. It's hard to argue that he should have played more tests because he was directly up against Flood, Hodgson, Wilkinson and Barkley for most of his career.

Well the stats say he was the second best English fly half of the modern era. His lack of caps and love suggest many don't want to accept that.

Flood, Barkley and Hodgson all have more England caps but worse records, seems really strange to me. Even Shane Geraghty managed 6 caps during that period.

GunsGerms wrote:Well the stats say he was the second best English fly half of the modern era. His lack of caps and love suggest many don't want to accept that.

I'd say its a reminder about how misleading stats can be. When he got capped he was rubbish - solid club player and that's about it. Given that he's 35 and played in some successful sides it's not surprising he's reached so many points.

Most underrated English player? Nick Easter.

He wasn't rubbish at all when he was capped. In the one game he started v Ireland he was probably England's best player. In the games he started he had high scoring averages. It was England that were rubbish at the time.

Despite being a saints fan, I have always rated Goode. He was and still is in many ways an inflated (in terms of bigger and pie consumption) version of Myler. Can do everything well but excels at nothing, no weaknesses to capitalise on, but is not going to run in a try from the half way line.

He got Tigers back line moving pretty well, defended, kicked exceptionally well from hand and not bad from the deck as his points total indicates.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Despite being a saints fan, I have always rated Goode. He was and still is in many ways an inflated (in terms of bigger and pie consumption) version of Myler. Can do everything well but excels at nothing, no weaknesses to capitalise on, but is not going to run in a try from the half way line.

He got Tigers back line moving pretty well, defended, kicked exceptionally well from hand and not bad from the deck as his points total indicates.

True but neither would Wilko at any point of his career either.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Despite being a saints fan, I have always rated Goode. He was and still is in many ways an inflated (in terms of bigger and pie consumption) version of Myler. Can do everything well but excels at nothing, no weaknesses to capitalise on, but is not going to run in a try from the half way line.

He got Tigers back line moving pretty well, defended, kicked exceptionally well from hand and not bad from the deck as his points total indicates.

That's something I've noticed a lot in his Wasps play. His kicking from hand is brilliant (especially in this day and age when so many players over-cook it and kick it out on the full or aim a pointless/mis-judged air-bomb).

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Despite being a saints fan, I have always rated Goode. He was and still is in many ways an inflated (in terms of bigger and pie consumption) version of Myler. Can do everything well but excels at nothing, no weaknesses to capitalise on, but is not going to run in a try from the half way line.

He got Tigers back line moving pretty well, defended, kicked exceptionally well from hand and not bad from the deck as his points total indicates.

He played a few games for us at FB - and showed a decent turn of pace. I may have been on the sauce at the time but I swear he once ran one in from the 10m line.

Cyril wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Despite being a saints fan, I have always rated Goode. He was and still is in many ways an inflated (in terms of bigger and pie consumption) version of Myler. Can do everything well but excels at nothing, no weaknesses to capitalise on, but is not going to run in a try from the half way line.

He got Tigers back line moving pretty well, defended, kicked exceptionally well from hand and not bad from the deck as his points total indicates.

That's something I've noticed a lot in his Wasps play. His kicking from hand is brilliant (especially in this day and age when so many players over-cook it and kick it out on the full or aim a pointless/mis-judged air-bomb).

Kicking from hand is a lost art. There are a couple of players (Sexton and Biggar spring to mind) who still use the kick as an attacking weapon and do so accurately, but as you say so much kicking is just aimless rubbish these days.

As a club player I wouldn't say he's underrated. He's been one of the most consistent 10s in the AP - he adds a dependability that many clubs cry out for. He never quite cut it at international level though.

rodders can't say I agree about Easter. He's been a great servant for Quins and seems to excel at club level but I was never particularly impressed by him at international level.

Certainly when you compare Morgan and B.Vunipola,Easter lacks the power and athleticism that both those two have IMO.

Underrated is very subjective though.

beshocked wrote:As a club player I wouldn't say he's underrated. He's been one of the most consistent 10s in the AP - he adds a dependability that many clubs cry out for. He never quite cut it at international level though.

rodders can't say I agree about Easter. He's been a great servant for Quins and seems to excel at club level but I was never particularly impressed by him at international level.

Certainly when you compare Morgan and B.Vunipola,Easter lacks the power and athleticism that both those two have IMO.

Underrated is very subjective though.

I really disagree with that. Easter was and is extremely powerful, great hands as well. His weakness is pace/athleticism, certainly when you compare him to Morgan who is extremely dynamic ball in hand. Power was and is not a problem for Easter.

FES I disagree. I never felt that Easter gave England sufficient go forward. Also he lacked pace.

Great hands sure but he's no Billy V or Morgan in terms of beating defenders IMO.

Whilst Easter may not "beat" defenders in the same way as Morgan, mainly due to pace, just look at the power Easter has around the fringes, demonstrated by his try scoring record from short range. When comes to pick and drives in soggy conditions then Easter is right in his comfort zone.

Still, Morgan and Billy V are two excellent young number 8s and England really are lucky to be choosing from those two for the foreseeable. I like my number 8s to be good ball carriers in the traditional sense (is Wood at 8 Lancaster's worst decision??) and both those guys are going to win a bunch of caps in the future.

FES at club level Easter is one of the best no 8s in the business. It's international level where Easter's flaws were shown up in my opinion like his lack of pace as you say. I personally feel that Billy and Ben are better ball carriers than Easter but we can agree to disagree. One thing that I feel that Easter does better is the handling as you say and also he's a better leader (at club level certainly, didn't see his leadership at international level).

Happy to agree to disagree. There's absolutely no doubt that Billy V and Morgan are the correct choices now, I perhaps just feel that Easter was discarded by England a little too early thus the "underrated" tag. He probably doesn't get enough credit for his efforts in 2007 either in getting England to the final that year. Wilkinson soaks up a vast amount of unjustified credit for that RWC performance - his goal kicking in particular was nothing special %-wise in that tournament.

Easter wasn't helped by the world cup 2011 fiasco, not just part of an insipid display on the pitch, his opinions were leaked off it too - Lancaster probably considered Easter's age, his performance on and off the pitch in the RWC and decided to go with other options at number 8 which I think is fair enough.

I just felt that pretty much every other 6 nations side had a better no 8 than England till Morgan and Billy had emerged - Wales - Faletau, France - Harinorduquy then Picamoles, Italy - Parisse, Scotland - Beattie then Denton. Ireland - Heaslip

Agree, no doubt Easter was dropped as part of Lancaster's drive to improve the "attitude" of the squad. The comment allegedly made by Easter in 2011 was pretty dreadful as well. There's also the story of certain players not respecting Lancaster on day one (as a relatively unproven coach), and I can't help but feel the rather old school Easter would have been part of that group.

The players you list did/do have their strengths (to be fair that's a pretty damn group of number 8s as well), but if I had to back anyone 5 metres from the line from that group, or to clean up duff ball at the back of the scrum, I'd pick Easter 10 times out of 10. Still, as an athlete or in terms of fitness/workrate, he'd probably finish last from that group.

There was one of those BBC slow motion clips of an England Wales game a few years ago, where Alun Wyn Jones was swinging Easter around by the torso/ under his shoulders. Couldn't imagine that happening to Dallaglio or the other no.8s listed above. He was underpowered in the international game.

He's heavier than Heaslip, Harinordiquy, Faletau, Dallaglio (in his day), Read and Parisse.

North picked up Folau for the Lions and carried him backwards. Is Folau "underpowered"?

I think that image you have is more to do with technique, and Easter being caught with his feet of the ground, than a lack of power.

funnyExiledScot wrote:He's heavier than Heaslip, Harinordiquy, Faletau, Dallaglio (in his day), Read and Parisse.

Weight has nothing to do with power. Look at weight lifting competitions at the Olympics for example. Relatively small people lifting twice their body weight. Plus, AWJ is not known for his power either - athleticism yes, but brawn not really.

funnyExiledScot wrote:North picked up Folau for the Lions and carried him backwards. Is Folau "underpowered"?

That was a winger on a winger, so different as I would expect the no.8 to be one of the most effective when running at someone, it was also by a young lad who is reputedly very strong but he also hurt himself in the process. Which is probably the main reason you don't see that 'carry' happen more often - more chance of it hurting you than the person you're lifting when you try to go to ground.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I think that image you have is more to do with technique, and Easter being caught with his feet of the ground, than a lack of power.

Still think he was easily over-powered for a no.8, and unfortunately this is my memory of him in the England shirt.

I agree that weight and power do not necessarily correlate, however when a player has his feet off the ground then weight becomes rather relevant, obviously.

If you want another memory to cherish there is also England 62 - 5 Wales - Easter scoring a hattrick in the process of crushing a feeble Welsh pack (which included AWJ at 6).

I'm really not saying Easter is one of the great number 8s, more that a lack of power was not a problem. Pace, yes.

MichaelT wrote:There was one of those BBC slow motion clips of an England Wales game a few years ago, where Alun Wyn Jones was swinging Easter around by the torso/ under his shoulders. Couldn't imagine that happening to Dallaglio or the other no.8s listed above. He was underpowered in the international game.

Thats actually not really as impressive as you say. You can use someone's weight to their disadvantage to make them move... i.e. Judo.
It sometimes happens when a player is slightly off balance and the defender picks his moment.

I always thought Nick Easter was a very good player to be truthful. Can't buy that sort of calmness at the back of the scrum. Good enough to knock Dallaglio to the bench in 07 (albeit when Dallaglio was what 34 or so). Unlucky not to tour with the lions in 09.

LondonTiger wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Despite being a saints fan, I have always rated Goode. He was and still is in many ways an inflated (in terms of bigger and pie consumption) version of Myler. Can do everything well but excels at nothing, no weaknesses to capitalise on, but is not going to run in a try from the half way line.

He got Tigers back line moving pretty well, defended, kicked exceptionally well from hand and not bad from the deck as his points total indicates.

He played a few games for us at FB - and showed a decent turn of pace. I may have been on the sauce at the time but I swear he once ran one in from the 10m line.

I'm pretty sure I vaguely remember that as well LT. One of those moments where it looks like the player's running in slow motion but covers the ground. I'm pretty sure he kept turning his head side to side as if wondering why no-one had caught up with him yet as well!

On the OP I agree he was a very underrated player for a time in his career. These days however he seems to be getting the a bit more recognition and respect from fans, not least because of his longevity I suspect. At 35 he is still kicking all the points and running a backline very well for Wasps.

Rumours are that he'll be leaving Coventry at the end of the season with Gopperth replacing him. If so then a lot of AP clubs could do a hell of a lot worse than snapping him up for a season. If he were willing to drop his wage demands I for one would happily see him back at Welford Road for a RWC season when squads will be disrupted by Int call ups and injuries.

Id take Goode at Leinster over Gopperth any day.

funnyExiledScot wrote: If you want another memory to cherish there is also England 62 - 5 Wales - Easter scoring a hattrick in the process of crushing a feeble Welsh pack (which included AWJ at 6).

He scored 4 tries in that game. Therefore he played 46 other games for England and scored 1 more try. That England Wales game was a very poor match, as an England fan I didn't take much from the victory Wales were so poor. If that had happened in the Six Nations it would be more notable.

fa0019 wrote:

MichaelT wrote:There was one of those BBC slow motion clips of an England Wales game a few years ago, where Alun Wyn Jones was swinging Easter around by the torso/ under his shoulders. Couldn't imagine that happening to Dallaglio or the other no.8s listed above. He was underpowered in the international game.

Thats actually not really as impressive as you say. You can use someone's weight to their disadvantage to make them move... i.e. Judo.
It sometimes happens when a player is slightly off balance and the defender picks his moment.

I always thought Nick Easter was a very good player to be truthful. Can't buy that sort of calmness at the back of the scrum. Good enough to knock Dallaglio to the bench in 07 (albeit when Dallaglio was what 34 or so). Unlucky not to tour with the lions in 09.

Never said it was impressive - either actually or really. What I was doing was highlighting an example of a lack of power, which a number of other posters had alluded to. With regards the Lions, Heaslip and Andy Powell were the better choices at the time. Why? Because of a lack of power against South Africa from Easter.

I'm sorry but when you say Andy Powell has "power" and Nick Easter doesn't then you are certainly talking poop. I can only think that we are talking about different players.

Powell's strength was not his power but his pace and footwork - great runner with ball in hand. Not a hard yards grafter though, and nothing but saw dust up top. Almost the complete opposite of Nick Easter!

You are right about that drubbing against Wales though, a pretty meaningless fixture. I only mentioned it because to me it was more telling than the one incident you mentioned (which I confess I don't recall) where AWJ picked Easter up off the ground.

Andy Powell got on the Lions tour purely because he had banter. His on field skills on that tour were embarrassing.

Though in tours, sometimes a joker is needed... albeit not by the most rubbish player on tour.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I'm sorry but when you say Andy Powell has "power" and Nick Easter doesn't then you are certainly talking poop. I can only think that we are talking about different players.

Powell's strength was not his power but his pace and footwork - great runner with ball in hand. Not a hard yards grafter though, and nothing but saw dust up top. Almost the complete opposite of Nick Easter!

You are right about that drubbing against Wales though, a pretty meaningless fixture. I only mentioned it because to me it was more telling than the one incident you mentioned (which I confess I don't recall) where AWJ picked Easter up off the ground.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I think anybody saying Powell has footwork is talking utter tosh. Tom Croft has pace and footwork for a back row player. Powell doesn't have either. I wouldn't say Roberts has pace or footwork, but a good ability to break the gainline and Powell was used by Wales in the same mold. You need power for that. Granted his decision making let him down. Easter I agree has a good tactical brain, but putting an international team on the front foot like a Morgan, Faletau or Heaslip he does not.

Think we are going round in circles anyway. Lets leave it at agree to disagree.

MichaelT wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:I'm sorry but when you say Andy Powell has "power" and Nick Easter doesn't then you are certainly talking poop. I can only think that we are talking about different players.

Powell's strength was not his power but his pace and footwork - great runner with ball in hand. Not a hard yards grafter though, and nothing but saw dust up top. Almost the complete opposite of Nick Easter!

You are right about that drubbing against Wales though, a pretty meaningless fixture. I only mentioned it because to me it was more telling than the one incident you mentioned (which I confess I don't recall) where AWJ picked Easter up off the ground.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I think anybody saying Powell has footwork is talking utter tosh. Tom Croft has pace and footwork for a back row player. Powell doesn't have either. I wouldn't say Roberts has pace or footwork, but a good ability to break the gainline and Powell was used by Wales in the same mold. You need power for that. Granted his decision making let him down. Easter I agree has a good tactical brain, but putting an international team on the front foot like a Morgan, Faletau or Heaslip he does not.

Think we are going round in circles anyway. Lets leave it at agree to disagree.

Agreed!

Must be last nights alcohol, read the title of the thread and thought, finally recognition at last.

Then disappointment, not me. Mind you I am used to that sort of disappointment most Tuesday and Friday nights.