Andre Ward

Has officially signed with Roc Nation, wonder if we'll see him fight now he has a new promoter.

Haha, they've finally got a big name, they wanted, they seem very willing to splash the cash about, just been blocked at every angle so far. Think it's bad in the long run as I can't see Haymon letting his fighters take on Roc Nation ones.

Thi sis great news. Roc Nation has a P4P talent they can build. Sod Al Haymon. Goldenboy and TR can work with them. More fighters will jump ship eventually. I am just glad to see Ward has finally broken free of the Goosen contract. Prob cost Jay Z a pretty penny to buy that contract out but that's not my concern.

Only problem with Ward is he wouldn't sell out a phone box outside Oakland.

They also have Jennings who is taking on Wlad next. Roc Nation being involved in a fight for the HW title is a pretty good statement

Probably not Jay Z's concern either. Ward's contract probably isn't a drop in the ocean for The Roc brand. Not sure Ward makes them all that much money, but I think it's more a statement of intent.

I was a bit skeptical when I saw this initially, thinking that if anything it would just end up causing even more legal problems for all involved - but a day or so after Ward signed, the Goossen's released a statement saying that thier relationship with Ward is now offically done and dusted and that he has no further ties with them. So finally, his career should be able to gather some pace again, providing Roc Nation are professional enough to work with other promotional banners (which surely they'll need to be, as their stable is too small to try and keep everything in-house, ala Top Rank in recent years).

The only really big name who has made a clear declaration that they'd love the Ward fight has been Kovalev and his camp, and that would be a mouth watering one. John David Jackson has made no bones about stating clearly that, if he had his way, Ward is the fight he'd want for Kovalev above all else (including Stevenson) - as long as Ward is prepared to be realistic in negotiations. No nonsense about Kovalev coming down to 168 or a catchweight etc - the fight's at 175 and that's that is his / Kovalev's stance, which is absolutely how it should be. Jackson went on to say that Ward is just "too big" for Golovkin and that he needs to accept that, after his career has stalled so badly since the Super Six tournament, he has to understand that he's not a-side in negotiations and can't expect to get anything other than the short end of the purse if he wants to fight Kovalev for his titles.

Ward said himself before the Rodriguez fight 14 months back that if he'd had his way, he'd have already moved up to 175 and that it's been Virgil Hunter who has convinced him to stay at 168 for as long as possible, so he clearly thinks he's got the size and frame for the higher weight. His Olympic gold was won at Light-Heavy too, let's not forget.

But I guess right now Ward just needs to get back in the ring a.s.a.p to blow off some cobwebs, see how the inactivity has effected him (if at all) and then target bigger fights later this year. He's got some lost time to make up for, but right now at 168 there isn't much to really set the pulse racing, unless one of Degale or Groves really establishes / re-establishes themselves as a bit of a sensation by absolutely dominating the other one in their expected rematch this year, particularly if it yields a world title for one of them.

There'll probably never be a better time to beat Ward (outside of him being asleep/in a coma/dead) for DeGale/Groves however, I fear it would then give a distorted reflection on the supremacy of Ward over everyone else at 168. At his peak, there isn't another SM who can touch him but I doubt Groves/Degale or anyone else would give two shiny sh!tes if they beat the best version of him of not.

That being said it's still a hell of an ask to beat him despite the lay-off.

Agree that Ward/Kovalev sets the pulse racing and for that I would want to see a fully recovered rust-free version of Ward

88Chris05 wrote:I was a bit skeptical when I saw this initially, thinking that if anything it would just end up causing even more legal problems for all involved - but a day or so after Ward signed, the Goossen's released a statement saying that thier relationship with Ward is now offically done and dusted and that he has no further ties with them. So finally, his career should be able to gather some pace again, providing Roc Nation are professional enough to work with other promotional banners (which surely they'll need to be, as their stable is too small to try and keep everything in-house, ala Top Rank in recent years).

The only really big name who has made a clear declaration that they'd love the Ward fight has been Kovalev and his camp, and that would be a mouth watering one. John David Jackson has made no bones about stating clearly that, if he had his way, Ward is the fight he'd want for Kovalev above all else (including Stevenson) - as long as Ward is prepared to be realistic in negotiations. No nonsense about Kovalev coming down to 168 or a catchweight etc - the fight's at 175 and that's that is his / Kovalev's stance, which is absolutely how it should be. Jackson went on to say that Ward is just "too big" for Golovkin and that he needs to accept that, after his career has stalled so badly since the Super Six tournament, he has to understand that he's not a-side in negotiations and can't expect to get anything other than the short end of the purse if he wants to fight Kovalev for his titles.

Ward said himself before the Rodriguez fight 14 months back that if he'd had his way, he'd have already moved up to 175 and that it's been Virgil Hunter who has convinced him to stay at 168 for as long as possible, so he clearly thinks he's got the size and frame for the higher weight. His Olympic gold was won at Light-Heavy too, let's not forget.

But I guess right now Ward just needs to get back in the ring a.s.a.p to blow off some cobwebs, see how the inactivity has effected him (if at all) and then target bigger fights later this year. He's got some lost time to make up for, but right now at 168 there isn't much to really set the pulse racing, unless one of Degale or Groves really establishes / re-establishes themselves as a bit of a sensation by absolutely dominating the other one in their expected rematch this year, particularly if it yields a world title for one of them.

I think Ward came out this weekend and said he was a super middleweight and wouldn't be moving up to 175 anytime soon.

More lack of ambition from Ward then.....

Bloody dismal. ATG in the making and his lack of ambition looks to have chucked it all away.

Was just thinking too, he must surely drop out of p4p lists, now that he's been well over a year without a fight. And sure enough, I just popped onto Boxrec to see HOW long, and he's not rated at all on there anymore.

Interesting stuff.....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/boxing/article-2906780/Adrien-Broner-apologises-foul-mouthed-rant-Jay-Z-Rihanna-turning-40-million-contract-offer.html
Seems Broner isn't so keen on fighting for J-Zed...maybe he's scared he might have to listen to Beyoncé singing at some stage.

I sympathise with him if he feels he just can't make light heavyweight. This is the problem with today's set up. Once over, Ward would have been the champion and so fighters would have had to fight him (and he'd have earned well as a result of being top dog).

Now, the likes of Froch can fight who they like (while declaring themselves the champion). The likes of Ward and Rigo are left fighting for washers.

Broner is a maniac. Turning down more money than he is ever likely to see otherwise is madness. He isn't worth $40 mill. Turning down that sort of money baffles me

hazharrison wrote:I sympathise with him if he feels he just can't make light heavyweight. This is the problem with today's set up. Once over, Ward would have been the champion and so fighters would have had to fight him (and he'd have earned well as a result of being top dog).

Now, the likes of Froch can fight who they like (while declaring themselves the champion). The likes of Ward and Rigo are left fighting for washers.

Ward could make 175lbs without any problems at all, he hasn't made the jump for reasons known only to him and his old promotional team.

It's never been any different Haz, before the proliferation of titles we had champions picking and choosing who they fought based on their skin colour so the best were left fighting the best for pittance while the champions picked and choosed for the big money.

Kovalev -Stevenson needs to happen before any talk of a Ward- Kovalev showdown.


Not his fault of course but Kovalev has yet to prove he's number one in his division. He murders Stevenson imo so were he to get Stevenson out of the way , that might pave the way for a showdown with  Ward.

Seems like Kovalev's people want the fight only at 175 which is fair enough and where it should take place imo. But expecting Ward to take the short end, I'm not so sure about that. Ward may not be exciting but has proved he's number one and has yet to be seriously pushed.

Also if Broner were to lose in his next couple of outings, he might never earn $40m dollars no matter how long he goes on fighting. Seems like  madness to turn it down although maybe he can prove everybody wrong, but  going on his recent form, I rather doubt it.

Herman Jaggery wrote:Kovalev -Stevenson needs to happen before any talk of a Ward- Kovalev showdown.

Superduck will never let that happen.

175lbs needs some new good fighters asap, for Kov to clean up, so we can dismiss Superduck's claim to greatness soon.

I have a horrible feeling Haymon and Stevenson are planning something too but I don't see how Stevenson can wriggle out without becoming a laughing stock. Kovy-Pascal winner becomes mandatory and the fight the whole of boxing is waiting for.

He's close to a laughing stock already. Should see the Twitter abuse surrounding his last fight, especially from Fat Dan!!

Glorified pimp has no interest in greatness, just dollars & hoes....

He'd better hope that Golovkin absconds the Middleweight division a bit sooner than originally planned or that Chavez beats Froch then, otherwise I'm struggling to see what fights at 168 are going to establish him as a PPV fighter or earn him those mega bucks that his talent warrants. Nothing wrong with the money he'll be earning otherwise, of course, but if you're elite inside the ropes you want your pay to reflect that.

If neither of the above happens them I'm struggling to see a real superfight for him at Super-Middleweight. Froch just isn't interested at all and has already been on the end of a conclusive loss to him, it's the wrong Dirrell who holds the WBC belt (if Andre can get his act together then his sheer speed and slippery style would at least put Ward in a rare position of being the slower man in there and would at leat ask a different question of him) and the likes of Degale, Groves, Abraham, Kessler, Bika etc all fall under the same category - already beaten by Ward and certainly past their best, or just not that much of a big deal to the wider boxing world.

It's brilliant the way Ward cleaned out the division in recent years, and I applaud him for achieving that because it doesn't happen all that often these days - but I don't think he should be totally immune from criticism if he never takes a crack at the Light-Heavies at some point. Stevenson is a career Super-Middleweight, too, and Kovalev, while a genuine Light-Heavy, isn't exactly huge compared to Ward. He's certainly good enough to beat any of the Light-Heavies (have said before that I could imagine Ward-Stevenson ending up looking like a re-run of Hopkins-Trinidad) and it'd be a shame if he didn't go on to try and prove that....But let's see how things go in the next year or whatever now he's finally got his legal issues sorted.

88Chris05 wrote:It's brilliant the way Ward cleaned out the division in recent years, and I applaud him for achieving that because it doesn't happen all that often these days - but I don't think he should be totally immune from criticism if he never takes a crack at the Light-Heavies at some point.

you agree with me about Hagler...............Or are you another hypocrite...

Truss, what in the blue frak has Hagler got to do with this!?

Hagler was a Middleweight in the era of same-day weigh ins, Ward is a Super-Middleweight in the era of 36 hours beforehand weigh ins, who also won an Olympic gold medal weighing 178 lb. The idea of him fighting at Light-Heavyweight as a professional is a bit more of a natural than it was for Hagler, who didn't have the luxury of a 168 lb division in the middle for most of his reign.

What I'd say is that Hagler shouldn't necessarily be ran down for staying at Middle, but that he can't be expected to rank alongside certain other names (such as Mr Spinks who we were talking about earlier) as a result of doing so. On the other hand, while of course Ward has still proven himself a superb fighter with or without a venture up to Light-Heavyweight, it's more of a natural move for him than it was Hagler, and certainly an easier achieved one.

In both cases, it's not so much that they get (or would get in Ward's case) ranked down for staying put - it's more that I just wouldn't go as far as others in terms of giving them an inlated ranking if they did, as I agree with you that Hagler, in general, gets too many brownie points from historians. But it's a bit easier for Ward to move up than it would be for Hagler, I feel, and that's the slight difference here.

88Chris05 wrote:Truss, what in the blue frak has Hagler got to do with this!?

Hagler was a Middleweight in the era of same-day weigh ins, Ward is a Super-Middleweight in the era of 36 hours beforehand weigh ins, who also won an Olympic gold medal weighing 178 lb. The idea of him fighting at Light-Heavyweight as a professional is a bit more of a natural than it was for Hagler, who didn't have the luxury of a 168 lb division in the middle for most of his reign.

What I'd say is that Hagler shouldn't necessarily be ran down for staying at Middle, but that he can't be expected to rank alongside certain other names (such as Mr Spinks who we were talking about earlier) as a result of doing so. On the other hand, while of course Ward has still proven himself a superb fighter with or without a venture up to Light-Heavyweight, it's more of a natural move for him than it was Hagler, and certainly an easier achieved one.

In both cases, it's not so much that they get (or would get in Ward's case) ranked down for staying put - it's more that I just wouldn't go as far as others in terms of giving them an inlated ranking if they did, as I agree with you that Hagler, in general, gets too many brownie points from historians. But it's a bit easier for Ward to move up than it would be for Hagler, I feel, and that's the slight difference here.

Everything to do with it.............Ward cleans up supermidd aginst better opposition than Hagler faces and yet he should be criticised for not moving up according to you....

As for day before weigh ins..............People are giving 20 pounds to JCC and not moaning about...........

Double standards...

88Chris05 wrote:Truss, what in the blue frak has Hagler got to do with this!?

Hagler was a Middleweight in the era of same-day weigh ins, Ward is a Super-Middleweight in the era of 36 hours beforehand weigh ins, who also won an Olympic gold medal weighing 178 lb. The idea of him fighting at Light-Heavyweight as a professional is a bit more of a natural than it was for Hagler, who didn't have the luxury of a 168 lb division in the middle for most of his reign.

What I'd say is that Hagler shouldn't necessarily be ran down for staying at Middle, but that he can't be expected to rank alongside certain other names (such as Mr Spinks who we were talking about earlier) as a result of doing so. On the other hand, while of course Ward has still proven himself a superb fighter with or without a venture up to Light-Heavyweight, it's more of a natural move for him than it was Hagler, and certainly an easier achieved one.

In both cases, it's not so much that they get (or would get in Ward's case) ranked down for staying put - it's more that I just wouldn't go as far as others in terms of giving them an inlated ranking if they did, as I agree with you that Hagler, in general, gets too many brownie points from historians. But it's a bit easier for Ward to move up than it would be for Hagler, I feel, and that's the slight difference here.

Everything to do with it.............Ward cleans up supermidd aginst better opposition than Hagler faces and yet he should be criticised for not moving up according to you....

As for day before weigh ins..............People are giving 20 pounds to JCC and not moaning about...........

Double standards....Spinks weighed 171 on the day of the fight...

Ward is great now................

If Pedroza is great so is Ricky hatton..

The point I'm trying (obviously not very well) to make Truss is that Ward would be giving away a significant amount less at 175 than Hagler would have been. Don't get me wrong, if he wanted to consolidate bonafide legend status then Hagler could have had a go at Spinks, or even a Qawi / Eddie beforehand - but if you were Hagler's handlers I imagine you'd think it was a much less feasible and riskier option than it would be for Ward, who is naturally a bigger guy than Marvin.

Like I said, if I was speaking to Hagler face to face about it I'd say that it was understandable that he never left 160, but that he can't have any complaints about not being ranked alongside a Leonard or a Spinks as a result of it. I think it's less understandable for Ward because he wouldn't be at any great disadvantage in terms of dimensions or weight and has some pedigree at Light-Heavyweight, albeit in the amateur ranks.

If he does stay at Super-Middle for the rest of his career (who knows, these things come in cycles and for all we know 168 could be absolutely buzzing again in a few years like it was when the Super Six tournament was taking place) then it certainly won't change the fact that he's already established himself as an exceptional fighter, and essentially I'm putting the pair in roughly the same boat - no real problem with them staying in one weight class and cleaning it out, but it would have been nice to see them move up and there's a cap you can put on how high they rank in terms of other legends because of them not doing so. Just that where I see it as a possibility for Hagler, I see it as something which should be considered more of a probability for Ward.

How can you compare someone not jumping straight from 160 to 175lbs (having never competed that heavy) in an era of same day weigh-ins to somebody not moving up from 168 to 175 lbs when they've over a day to rehydrate and have already competed at the highest (amateur) level at 175lbs??!

Pathetic.

TopHat24/7 wrote:How can you compare someone not jumping straight from 160 to 175lbs (having never competed that heavy) in an era of same day weigh-ins to somebody not moving up from 168 to 175 lbs when they've over a day to rehydrate and have already competed at the highest (amateur) level at 175lbs??!

Pathetic.

Run a long...............

You run along, that chip on your shoulder has clearly got too heavy and your drowing miserably here.

88Chris05 wrote:The point I'm trying (obviously not very well) to make Truss is that Ward would be giving away a significant amount less at 175 than Hagler would have been. Don't get me wrong, if he wanted to consolidate bonafide legend status then Hagler could have had a go at Spinks, or even a Qawi / Eddie beforehand - but if you were Hagler's handlers I imagine you'd think it was a much less feasible and riskier option than it would be for Ward, who is naturally a bigger guy than Marvin.

Like I said, if I was speaking to Hagler face to face about it I'd say that it was understandable that he never left 160, but that he can't have any complaints about not being ranked alongside a Leonard or a Spinks as a result of it. I think it's less understandable for Ward because he wouldn't be at any great disadvantage in terms of dimensions or weight and has some pedigree at Light-Heavyweight, albeit in the amateur ranks.

If he does stay at Super-Middle for the rest of his career (who knows, these things come in cycles and for all we know 168 could be absolutely buzzing again in a few years like it was when the Super Six tournament was taking place) then it certainly won't change the fact that he's already established himself as an exceptional fighter, and essentially I'm putting the pair in roughly the same boat - no real problem with them staying in one weight class and cleaning it out, but it would have been nice to see them move up and there's a cap you can put on how high they rank in terms of other legends because of them not doing so. Just that where I see it as a possibility for Hagler, I see it as something which should be considered more of a probability for Ward.

I get your point.................But Ward has fought better opposition at 168 than Hagler at 160 and has other names at that weight and below who are better too............So how does he lack ambition and Hagler doesn't is my point...

As Spinks weighed 171 for many of his fights...............Catchweight at 168 for a big purse would no doubt have been appetising for him....

Dick Tiger......Fitzsimmons, Robinson and god knows how many others tried it............and fought better oppsition at 160...

Toppy stay out of this...............Anyone who thinks Chuvalo is great and started watching Boxing in 2010...........Doesn't interest me...

Go away you no-nothing backside-licking scroat......Chris has got a girlfriend !!...

Boom get in there !!!!!

Whilst it's his choice to move up or not as he sees fit, history will have shown Ward that certain fighters (and certainly those of exceptional talent) are lambasted for not making more of their abilities. Certainly feel Andre falls into this category and whilst I won't go as far as to suggest he OWES us these big LH fights, he's certainly not winning any new fans with this attitude (especially when many feel that they definitely winnable fights for him)

No only modern fighters are lambasted for not making more of their talents.........

Which suits some posters who's knowledge only goes back a couple of years....

Modern fighters are protected more though Truss, with the proliferation (I think that's right) of belts and the avoidance of fighters seeming to happen more it's going to be a bigger issue.

Mayweather is lambasted by a lot of people at the moment for his avoidance tactics, in 20 years time some newer fan will be having the same conversation about him.

The avoidance of fighters has always happened, it's something that gets overlooked and forgotten over time. Going back to the 20's the champions were protected by the No Decision rule and could hang on to a title far longer than they should have.

Cherrypicking is a modern phenomenon..........???? Es tu sur ????

Larry Holmes anybody ??

Gave up his belt because he wouldn't fight Page, Thomas or a ripped-off Witherspoon again..

Preferred Bey, Frazier, Zanon, Cobb, Ocasio types....

Who talks about Larry cherrypicking..............and give me a list which doesn't have him Top 5 at heavy....

I'm not enjoying putting everyone in their place on here....

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:No only modern fighters are lambasted for not making more of their talents.........

Which suits some posters who's knowledge only goes back a couple of years....

I admire the effort they've gone to in order to make their knowledge that broad...wish I was as motivated.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Cherrypicking is a modern phenomenon..........???? Es tu sur ????

Larry Holmes anybody ??

Gave up his belt because he wouldn't fight Page, Thomas or a ripped-off Witherspoon again..

Preferred Bey, Frazier, Zanon, Cobb, Ocasio types....

Who talks about Larry cherrypicking..............and give me a list which doesn't have him Top 5 at heavy....

I'm not enjoying putting everyone in their place on here....

The problem is Truss that people seem to advocate cherry picking as if it's okay when it's not. Just because others have done it, doesn't mean everyone else should, and if your really looking at cementing your legacy then you should be trying to fight the best, especially if you've already acommplished everything else.

I also stand by that it's a lot easier to cherry pick these days due to the sheer number of belts and they way the commentators sell us these massive fights.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:.

Toppy stay out of this...............Anyone who thinks Chuvalo is great and started watching Boxing in 2010...........Doesn't interest me...

Quote me, numbnuts, or run scared as usual.....

88Chris05 wrote:The point I'm trying (obviously not very well) to make Truss is that Ward would be giving away a significant amount less at 175 than Hagler would have been. Don't get me wrong, if he wanted to consolidate bonafide legend status then Hagler could have had a go at Spinks, or even a Qawi / Eddie beforehand - but if you were Hagler's handlers I imagine you'd think it was a much less feasible and riskier option than it would be for Ward, who is naturally a bigger guy than Marvin.

Like I said, if I was speaking to Hagler face to face about it I'd say that it was understandable that he never left 160, but that he can't have any complaints about not being ranked alongside a Leonard or a Spinks as a result of it. I think it's less understandable for Ward because he wouldn't be at any great disadvantage in terms of dimensions or weight and has some pedigree at Light-Heavyweight, albeit in the amateur ranks.

If he does stay at Super-Middle for the rest of his career (who knows, these things come in cycles and for all we know 168 could be absolutely buzzing again in a few years like it was when the Super Six tournament was taking place) then it certainly won't change the fact that he's already established himself as an exceptional fighter, and essentially I'm putting the pair in roughly the same boat - no real problem with them staying in one weight class and cleaning it out, but it would have been nice to see them move up and there's a cap you can put on how high they rank in terms of other legends because of them not doing so. Just that where I see it as a possibility for Hagler, I see it as something which should be considered more of a probability for Ward.

I completely disagree with the notion that a fighter must have moved up from their best weight in order to attain legendary status (especially in Hagler's day as per the reasons stated - same day weigh ins etc.).

Leonard's legacy was cemented at welterweight. Any highs that came after were cancelled out by more negatives (same deal with Spinks).

Spinks was great due to the work he did at 175. Beating an old, tired Holmes was cancelled out by the crushing defeat to Tyson. In fact, he'd probably be more highly regarded had he never left light heavyweight at all.

And Hagler generally rates higher than Spinks in expert listings.

Leonard without Hagler isn't rated so highly nor is Spinks without Holmes, silly to suggest that career best wins do nothing.

All opinions are null and void if the 'experts' say differently.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Leonard without Hagler isn't rated so highly nor is Spinks without Holmes, silly to suggest that career best wins do nothing.

All opinions are null and void if the 'experts' say differently.

I agree. But the point I made was that Leonard without Hagler AND Hearns 2, Norris and Camacho - without Kevin Howard and Lalonde - ranks just about where he is. His legacy was built on Hearns, Duran and Benitez.

Spinks without Holmes AND Tyson probably rates higher.

Neither Hagler not Holmes were still great and all three fights were hotly disputed.

Sorry that's just making opinion to support a previous agenda. Spinks being the first light heavyweight champion to win the heavyweight titles adds massively. 

Not sure I've ever seen any so called expert opinion that holds Camacho and Norris against Leonard.

I'm sure Haz will find one.....

Maybe Bernstein who strangely had Jack Johnson at 7 in his list...............Like someone else..

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Sorry that's just making opinion to support a previous agenda. Spinks being the first light heavyweight champion to win the heavyweight titles adds massively. 

Not sure I've ever seen any so called expert opinion that holds Camacho and Norris against Leonard.

What agenda?

Beating Hagler was a great performance but was it still a great win (same with Spinks over Holmes)?

Were they worth the poor performances that accompanied both above their best weights?

I'd argue they weren't.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I'm sure Haz will find one.....

Maybe Bernstein who strangely had Jack Johnson at 7 in his list...............Like someone else..

Which of course I never did. A whole day of making up rubbish. And not a single bite.

The whole agenda that clearing out a division is the be all and end all and that moving up in weight doesn't mean anything. Everything you've said is to validate your opinions on Hagler.

Would like to see Ward face Froch again. Ward destroyed Froch with one hand back when they met. With two hands he'd probably make 'the warrior' quit.

Comparing hagler and ward...

The jumping two weights argument for hagler v one for ward is obviously relevant, same day weigh/ins effect both fighters and have largely just moved the weight classes so less relevant. An argument exists that Magic potions available today make weight hopping ever more viable.

All said and done, there is no rule that says weight hopping is obligatory, but it's probably more expected now especially if the names are elsewhere. If you stay in your comfort zone when all realistic challenges have been exhausted then that's your choice but it's going to effect your all time great ranking (assuming you give a hoot) when others have stepped out of theirs. Robbo was arguably barely a middleweight but he still went after maxim after he'd run out of middles. 

You have to look at the timelines and say was there a time where there is a dearth of legitimate challengers? After spinks qawi, there were unified middle and light heavy champions. Spinks was treading water and  hagler's next 2 years went scypion, duran , roldan, hamsho 2. Scypion was too soon, duran a big name, roldan a decent opponent, so the answer is probably 1984. What's the big sell, Hamsho or spinks?

Duran, hearns and Leonard all went up to face marv. I didn't hear marv turning them away in embarrassment that he held too great an advantage. There's an argument that hagler spinks wasn't in big demand, but it's folly to say it wouldn't have been a huge fight and highly anticipated if announced. More so than hamsho 2, mandatory or otherwise. Did marv need or have to fight spinks? No.  Would a win over spinks have enhanced his historical standing, of course it would. Would a defeat have harmed it? Depends on the nature of it but unlikely.

As for ward... As has been said, Ward was a light heavy as an amateur, is big at the weight, and hasn't had a meaningful fight in ages... You could argue that groves or degale would be interesting (for Brit fans at least) but in reality its ggg moving up or him moving up to fight stevenson and/or kovalev. If not, he might as well stay in his self imposed retirement for all I and most of the rest of the world care. His career  has stagnated and it's his responsibility to stick his head over the parapet to kick start it.

In short, Hagler has more excuse than ward to stick in his division, but the fact he did is going to count against him when you're looking for differentiators among the historical elite. Its small margins between these guys. If ward doesn't get a big fight soon he's going to be the guy who's career died unbeaten in its prime.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:The whole agenda that clearing out a division is the be all and end all and that moving up in weight doesn't mean anything. Everything you've said is to validate your opinions on Hagler.

It can mean something but often doesn't. Duran moving up to defeat a prime Leonard was phenomenal, however, he was never the same fighter afterwards.

The performances against Hagler, Moore and Barkley were counteracted by a series of dismal showings. His legacy was intact after the Leonard fight.

Moving up in weight can improve a fighter's legacy but often doesn't (especially these days where day before weigh ins, "conditioners" and smaller gaps between divisions make it less of a feat).

The IBRO top twenty is as follows

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Harry Greb
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Muhammad Ali (Tie)
4. Joe Louis (Tie)
6. Sam Langford
7. Roberto Duran
8. Benny Leonard
9. Willie Pep
10. Bob Fitzsimmons
11. Joe Gans
12. Ezzard Charles (Tie)
12. Sugar Ray Leonard (Tie)
14. Jimmy Wilde
15. Eder Jofre
16. Mickey Walker
17. Archie Moore
18. Jack Dempsey
19. Jack Johnson
20. Gene Tunney

Now I would say the legacies of 13 of those men were improved by moving up in weight, of the others 4 were heavyweights which leaves Pep, Gans and Wilde. So I think a lot weight is placed on moving up in weight and to suggest it rarely does is again trying to legitimise your views on Hagler for not doing so. Of the ten also rans six of them benefited from jumping weight.

Outside the Heavyweight division it is very rare for a great fighter to have stayed in the same division his whole career.