If South Africa were to join Europe night games in SA night be the answer?

Good morning Gents. The subject of the structure of Super Rugby often comes up on another site I frequent. The discussion inevitably moves towards many Aussie wanting to kick South Africa out of Super Rugby.

There are different formats that the Aussies in general suggest, but the one common theme is that South Africa must go.

And with that suggestion come the opinion that South Africa must join the European season. Personally I don't see this as an option due to the fact that our seasons do not align. However I want to see what the opinion is of the European rugby supporters.

Do you want South Africa involved in the European comps, if so which ones and how will it be accommodated.

Thanks.

Bil,

What's the primary reason given as to why they want them out? Is it travel/time zones etc?

Mostly because the matches in SA are played in the early morning hours in OZ, so nobody watches them.

Biltong wrote:Mostly because the matches in SA are played in the early morning hours in OZ, so nobody watches them.

So is this move being pushed by broadcasters/tv companies etc?

Biltong wrote:Mostly because the matches in SA are played in the early morning hours in OZ, so nobody watches them.

Surely that problem is going to be at least as bad if playing to a European clock?

No, the supporters. But my personal opinion is the ARU if they had the choice (broadcast income in other markets such as Asia or America) they will no longer need SARU and push for a split then.

The ARU has ben trying to get into other lucrative markets for some time now and Asia were the first to bite.

The truth of the matter is the "international" component of our SUper XV matches are getting smaller with every negotiation.

During the Super 12 we played 6% of our matches against OZ and NZ teams, during the Super 14 it was 71% of our matches.

This went down to 50% with the Super XV and will now be only 33% of our matches in the Super 18.

George Carlin wrote:

Biltong wrote:Mostly because the matches in SA are played in the early morning hours in OZ, so nobody watches them.

Surely that problem is going to be at least as bad if playing to a European clock?

No it won't because Australia won't be involved. Many Aussies are very insular and don't care much for comps outside their own competitions.

Biltong wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

Biltong wrote:Mostly because the matches in SA are played in the early morning hours in OZ, so nobody watches them.

Surely that problem is going to be at least as bad if playing to a European clock?

No it won't because Australia won't be involved. Many Aussies are very insular and don't care much for comps outside their own competitions.

Oh no you didn't, girlfriend.

I'd imagine you be lined up for inclusion in the HEC. The competition would be expanded back to 24 with places found in the second tier for the two smaller franchises. That would be a serious reduction in game time for SA though.

NO chance of SA joining the northern hemisphere comps. No room in the 6 nations, what league to join. ( english won't have 'em - too insular as it would mean half the clubs dropping out of the top comp an the rest being cannon fodder for the SA teams) Too good anyway and would unbalance things. Tooo much flying and expense - we can barely make the pro 12 work with it being european with all the flyng

TJ, I am not talking about the Six Nations, only clubs rugby.

Biltong wrote:TJ, I am not talking about the Six Nations, only clubs rugby.

Still the same - no space for the SA teams.

English league - it would mean half the english clubs having to drop out of the top tier to find space for 6 SA teams. They will never do that. those teams dropping out would be ruined by the lack of income. Same applies for the pro 12 with the added problem of all the travel.

There simply isn't room in the NH game to allow SA teams to enter any NH competitions.

TJ wrote:

Biltong wrote:TJ, I am not talking about the Six Nations, only clubs rugby.

Still the same - no space for the SA teams.

English league - it would mean half the english clubs having to drop out of the top tier to find space for 6 SA teams.  They will never do that.  those teams dropping out would be ruined by the lack of income.  Same applies for the pro 12 with the added problem of all the travel.

There simply isn't room in the NH game to allow SA teams to enter any NH competitions.

What about the ERCC?

European cup?

how many teams would SA need in it to have meaningful competition? 6? that would mean turkeys voting for christmas. ie unions would have to vote to reduce their representation and no way could the european cup give SA enough games. maybe could find room for 2 teams but can you see the 6 unions in the euro cup voting to reduce their own representation? especially as it would have to come from the English and French representation as the rest of the unions cannot possibly have any less.

You could just add one more team to each pool?

Well, since this is only a hypothetical discussion, at least for now, let's follow it and see where we take it. i is an interesting subject. So assuming Super Rugby charges on with their Argie and Japanese contingents and the South African clubs align with Europe somehow, what would it look like?

Calendars for the Rugby season would likely have to change in both NH and SA to align. I could see this being the impetus to rationalise the NH calendar which is really bizarre, if we think about it logically. For the NH, the current Euro competition would need to expand significantly and would need to be played in one block. Would have to be large enough to ensure the money is still there and especially makes up for the loss of Super Rugby money by the SA clubs. Not sure what the SA clubs derive from Super Rugby, but I would be confident they could earn the same or more with fewer matches with Euro teams. A larger competition including the SA Super Rugby teams would be a huge money draw.

I can't see one big Euro league replacing the Top 14, Pro 12, and Premiership, with all nations involved because it would effectively eliminate the Currie Cup, which I suppose is a non-starter in SA. And have so many ramifications in the NH, would never get off the ground.

Ultimately, whether this eventually happens or not would depend on the money involved. The last Euro negotiations showed that everyone was hyper-protective of their own turf, power, and money that the numbers would have to be huge to make it work. And they might eventually be huge. Just can't visualise this in the near term. Good discussion, though.

Biltong wrote:You could just add one more team to each pool?

Nope - too many games to be played then. It could go back to 24 teams / 6 pools but that would show the hypocrisy of the English and french in an even clearer light as we apparantly had to reduce to 20 teams for some odd reason that did not add up.

Also SA teams would be too good and thus would reduce the chances of English teams winning - thats not to be tolerated by the english

Well, from my perspective I have never seen a way to do it.

Apart from the fact that the seasons don't align, the fact that the ERCC is played during our summer and your comps all being a mixed bag where they overlap makes it too challenging to achieve.

I have been advocating we leave Super Rugby because I don't like the direction it is taking.

I am of the opinion that we need to go back to basics and improve our provinces, getting more money to them and building a Currie Cup with 14 teams and have a 26 week round robin home and away.

Obviously this can not be done immediately as we would have to build it within the constraints of revenue available.

But the Ozzies are adamant that we must go, and join Europe.

Bil,

Could there ever come a time where your forced out even if nowhere to go, could it get that bad?

bedfordwelsh wrote:Bil,

Could there ever come a time where your forced out even if nowhere to go, could it get that bad?

Yes, and I am hoping it happens.

Biltong wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Bil,

Could there ever come a time where your forced out even if nowhere to go, could it get that bad?

Yes, and I am hoping it happens.

What then though if the NH won't accept you, just develop from within Currie Cup etc as you alluded to? Would that be enough or would it hinder the National side as well?

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Biltong wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Bil,

Could there ever come a time where your forced out even if nowhere to go, could it get that bad?

Yes, and I am hoping it happens.

What then though if the NH won't accept you, just develop from within Currie Cup etc as you alluded to?  Would that be enough or would it hinder the National side as well?

Yes, many New Zealanders believe our rugby will stagnate as it did during the isolation years, but they are forgetting we than had no contact from outside. We will still lay tests and that will be enough.

If we develop our Currie Cup into 14 teams we will create more depth of talent, besides our Currie Cup teas play more positive rugby than our Super XV teams, so our game won't stagnate

If SA were to be added to the ERCC, then as Sam mentions, reverting back to 6 groups with SA taking 4 spots and replicating this in the Challenge Cup woudl give 8 SA "club" sides international exposure. Logistically and financially this could only benefit Euro clubs.

However the seasons are not aligned and the Euro weekends are fragmented across an 8 month window.

The only possibility I can see is the Saffers linking up with the Pro12 in some way

geoff999rugby wrote:The only possibility I can see is the Saffers linking up with the Pro12 in some way

Why?

geoff999rugby wrote:The only possibility I can see is the Saffers linking up with the Pro12 in some way

How?

Would have to be a complete restructure but the reality is the 3 senior Irish provinces aside crowds are poor.
Also the competition needs the Welsh to be as strong as the Irish but Ospreys apart they are not.
Having the same 5 1/2 (Llanelli occasional upsets the usual order) teams at the top year in year out is not good.
Since 2008 only once has one of the other teams made the top 5 - the tournament could do with a shot in the arm competition wise.

How ? who knows.
Some restructure with say 1 match against each other - so 17 games (assuming 6 SA teams)
with the reverse fixtures for the top 9 and the reverse fixtures for the next 9.
26 games no playoffs

The bottom league would still be competitive for the European teams due to HC qualification

Cant see it myself but there is absolutely no chance the English or French will restructure their league.
Its a slim chance as opposed to no chance.

geoff999rugby wrote:Would have to be a complete restructure but the reality is the 3 senior Irish provinces aside crowds are poor.
Also the competition needs the Welsh to be as strong as the Irish but Ospreys apart they are not.
Having the same 5 1/2 (Llanelli occasional upsets the usual order) teams at the top year in year out is not good.
Since 2008 only once has one of the other teams made the top 5 - the tournament could do with a shot in the arm competition wise.

How ? who knows.
Some restructure with say 1 match against each other - so 17 games (assuming 6 SA teams)
with the reverse fixtures for the top 9 and the reverse fixtures for the next 9.
26 games no playoffs

The bottom league would still be competitive for the European teams due to HC qualification

Cant see it myself but there is absolutely no chance the English or French will restructure their league.
Its a slim chance as opposed to no chance.

Thanks for the reply, it won't work, this is why.

If you pull let's say 4 SA teas into the Pro12, then you are killing the CUrrie Cup as a competition, the only way I see SA getting involved in Europe is by having the currie cup as their domestic comp, and having a few teams in ERCC

Biltong wrote:the only way I see SA getting involved in Europe is by having the currie cup as their domestic comp, and having a few teams in ERCC

Agreed, and how that could happen has been outlined above, along with the main problem. The unaligned seasons would require massive compromises, probably from SA - but could easily be outweighed by reduced travel, better time-zones and a more eclectic set of opponents.

LondonTiger wrote:

Biltong wrote:the only way I see SA getting involved in Europe is by having the currie cup as their domestic comp, and having a few teams in ERCC

Agreed, and how that could happen has been outlined above, along with the main problem. The unaligned seasons would require massive compromises, probably from SA - but could easily be outweighed by reduced travel, better time-zones and a more eclectic set of opponents.

I think the ERCC will have to be played in one complete block though, completed probably before November though

My opinion:

South Africa strength their domestic competition into their 'main' competition, similar to AP, Pro12, etc. They then join the 'European' competitions. There are 12+12+14 top tier pro clubs in Europe currently, and two from the qualifying competition, so 40 teams. So adding 8 teams makes two tiers of 24 (TJ one of the reasons for going to 20 was because there weren't 24 top teams, looking this season it seems valid, the best 4 South Africans would probably be competitive).

The main issue is seasonal. Is there a way around this? We'll both play during their spring/autumn. The RPA are talking about mid-season breaks being good for the players. This could mean not playing in mid winter and mid summer. The seasons would then be easier to merge. Especially if local do,estic competitions are played during the 'winter' if needed (the Christmas games are generally big ones and popular with supporters).

So whether your domestic competition is 8 teams or more and only the top 8 qualify for Europe, would be up to you. But it's not going to happen until the markets in Asia float the ARU.

Hammer, I agree. I was thinking along similar lines, but you laid it out better. I think this gives the perfect opportunity to make the Rugby calendar much more logical. And with the inclusion of South African teams it would keep things fresh and raise interest. All are positives.

I don't disagree I was merely trying to point out the only, very slim, possibility of being fully integrated.

As to adding 8 SA teams in I would have to suggest this may well not be considered acceptable, to the NH, for 2 reasons:

1 - France get 6, England get 6, the other 4 senior nations get 7 between them - why should SA get 8?
2 - If the 8 qualify by default without competition that is also unacceptable.
We have just had a big to do about making qualification competitive - I cannot see the SA teams being allowed to qualify automatically

Geoff, think you missed the point that SA would get 8 teams into European comps with 4 in the top tier. Would this be accepted by SA when Pro 12/Top 14/Aviva get all their teams in? Perhaps those 3 leagues should lose a team so all leagues get at least 11 teams in European comp, with those 3 teams being the start of a third tier with the remaining SA teams.
Bilt, We had a discussion about this a while ago & you were totally against it with your preferred option being just a home league. If the problems could be worked out would you now like to see SA teams playing against European teams?

geoff, you seem to be falling into the same trap a lot of pro12 supporters do, Europe isn't just the top tier

broadlandboy wrote:Geoff, think you missed the point that SA would get 8 teams into European comps with 4 in the top tier. Would this be accepted by SA when Pro 12/Top 14/Aviva get all their teams in? Perhaps those 3 leagues should lose a team so all leagues get at least 11 teams in European comp, with those 3 teams being the start of a third tier with the remaining SA teams.
Bilt, We had a discussion about this a while ago & you were totally against it with your preferred option being just a home league. If the problems could be worked out would you now like to see SA teams playing against European teams?

I don't know mate, I want the Currie Cup to retain (I should say regain) it's importance. If there is a major financial windfall for SA to get involved without compromising the Currie Cup and the ERCC is played in one block (not scattered) it might be worth it.

The fact is we are losing players left right and centre, Super Rugby is not halting the loss of players, and I do not like where Super rugby is going, it is now just becoming a free for all with no consideration for quality of teams, so that ship in my view must sail.

TJ wrote:

Biltong wrote:You could just add one more team to each pool?

Nope - too many games to be played then.  It could go back to 24 teams / 6 pools but that would show the hypocrisy of the English and french in an even clearer light as we apparantly had to reduce to 20 teams for some odd reason that did not add up.

Also SA teams would be too good and thus would reduce the chances of English teams winning - thats not to be tolerated by the english

He's got a point Bilt.

I don't think it's possible that this could happen. If there was a global season, the unions up here would jump at the opportunity to play SA franchises. Especially the French, who will start stealing more of your players.

The Saint wrote:

TJ wrote:

Biltong wrote:You could just add one more team to each pool?

Nope - too many games to be played then.  It could go back to 24 teams / 6 pools but that would show the hypocrisy of the English and french in an even clearer light as we apparantly had to reduce to 20 teams for some odd reason that did not add up.

Also SA teams would be too good and thus would reduce the chances of English teams winning - thats not to be tolerated by the english

He's got a point Bilt.

I don't think it's possible that this could happen. If there was a global season, the unions up here would jump at the opportunity to play SA franchises. Especially the French, who will start stealing more of your players.

They're stealing our players regardless Saint. I understand TJ's point though. I am just trying to get input from the European supporters so I can present a some facts to these guys wanting to shove us off.

Biltong wrote:

The Saint wrote:

TJ wrote:

Biltong wrote:You could just add one more team to each pool?

Nope - too many games to be played then.  It could go back to 24 teams / 6 pools but that would show the hypocrisy of the English and french in an even clearer light as we apparantly had to reduce to 20 teams for some odd reason that did not add up.

Also SA teams would be too good and thus would reduce the chances of English teams winning - thats not to be tolerated by the english

He's got a point Bilt.

I don't think it's possible that this could happen. If there was a global season, the unions up here would jump at the opportunity to play SA franchises. Especially the French, who will start stealing more of your players.

They're stealing our players regardless Saint. I understand TJ's point though. I am just trying to get input from the European supporters so I can present a some facts to these guys wanting to shove us off.

As I understand, SA bring a lot of revenue to Super Rugby? If you go, all of that goes and Aus get a bit less. Surely that couldn't be instantly replaced by two nations (Arg and Japan) who are still developing a professional game at club level.

The Saint wrote:

Biltong wrote:

The Saint wrote:

TJ wrote:

Biltong wrote:You could just add one more team to each pool?

Nope - too many games to be played then.  It could go back to 24 teams / 6 pools but that would show the hypocrisy of the English and french in an even clearer light as we apparantly had to reduce to 20 teams for some odd reason that did not add up.

Also SA teams would be too good and thus would reduce the chances of English teams winning - thats not to be tolerated by the english

He's got a point Bilt.

I don't think it's possible that this could happen. If there was a global season, the unions up here would jump at the opportunity to play SA franchises. Especially the French, who will start stealing more of your players.

They're stealing our players regardless Saint. I understand TJ's point though. I am just trying to get input from the European supporters so I can present a some facts to these guys wanting to shove us off.

As I understand, SA bring a lot of revenue to Super Rugby? If you go, all of that goes and Aus get a bit less. Surely that couldn't be instantly replaced by two nations (Arg and Japan) who are still developing a professional game at club level.

Not immediately no, but if you look at the trend it is clear Australia wants other markets involved to enhance their options.

The Saint wrote:

Biltong wrote:

The Saint wrote:

TJ wrote:

Biltong wrote:You could just add one more team to each pool?

Nope - too many games to be played then.  It could go back to 24 teams / 6 pools but that would show the hypocrisy of the English and french in an even clearer light as we apparantly had to reduce to 20 teams for some odd reason that did not add up.

Also SA teams would be too good and thus would reduce the chances of English teams winning - thats not to be tolerated by the english

He's got a point Bilt.

I don't think it's possible that this could happen. If there was a global season, the unions up here would jump at the opportunity to play SA franchises. Especially the French, who will start stealing more of your players.

They're stealing our players regardless Saint. I understand TJ's point though. I am just trying to get input from the European supporters so I can present a some facts to these guys wanting to shove us off.

As I understand, SA bring a lot of revenue to Super Rugby? If you go, all of that goes and Aus get a bit less. Surely that couldn't be instantly replaced by two nations (Arg and Japan) who are still developing a professional game at club level.

I agree with TJ.

As you well know Bill the European game Is run by France and England because they have more money and more people in their countries.

Saint the Aussies would be presumably chasing the Japanese market, like you said a developing nation, but a hugely lucrative one. Japan is still the worlds third largest economy, almost the UK and France together.


I would welcome SA with open arms if it was not to the detriment of the three Celtic nations. Which after recent European rugby politicking I most definitely think it would be.

Biltong wrote:

They're stealing our players regardless Saint. I understand TJ's point though. I am just trying to get input from the European supporters so I can present a some facts to these guys wanting to shove us off.

By "these guys", do you mean some of the contributors on the Roar?

I'd love the South Africans to be involved in European Competitions.

It's about time the European season was restructured anyway.

Pot Hale wrote:

Biltong wrote:

They're stealing our players regardless Saint. I understand TJ's point though. I am just trying to get input from the European supporters so I can present a some facts to these guys wanting to shove us off.

By "these guys", do you mean some of the contributors on the Roar?  

Yes

Bilt, How would you feel if the ERCC was split into 2 blocks? So for NH teams it would be ERCC Domestic ERCC off season. SA would be ERCC off season ERCC domestic.

broadlandboy wrote:Bilt, How would you feel if the ERCC was split into 2 blocks? So for NH teams it would be ERCC Domestic ERCC off season. SA would be ERCC off season ERCC domestic.

Sorry broadlandboy, I am not following you, can you provide an example please.

So 4 ERCC  games Sep/Oct then onto domestic leagues for NH teams,off season/start of domestic for SA teams. Then final 5 ERCC games, then end of domestic leagues off season for NH teams,SA teams have domestic league. So your off season is between the 2 blocks of ERCC games. Movement of games to allow for RC & 6N. I know not perfect but as a basis to start from

broadlandboy wrote:So 4 ERCC  games Sep/Oct then onto domestic leagues for NH teams,off season/start of domestic for SA teams. Then final 5 ERCC games, then end of domestic leagues off season for NH teams,SA teams have domestic league. So your off season is between the 2 blocks of ERCC games. Movement of games to allow for RC & 6N. I know not perfect but as a basis to start from

Problem with that is the SA boys will be out of shape come the second half of the comp.

The immovable dates in my view are the Six Nations, RC and November tours.

I see two options.

Start the European season with the ERCC in July/August run till completion. That mean we can have our Currie Cup early in the year.

or

Play the ERCC from APril to conclusion of your season in June.

4 SA teams will not fly to Europe to play in the Challenge cup

geoff999rugby wrote:4 SA teams will not fly to Europe to play in the Challenge cup

If you structure it so the SA teams play their away games in blocks, I'd think the bigger issue would be teams wanting to fly there just to play the Griquas etc. and then head back.