Why is it hard for some to accept Ali beat Liston ??

Never understood why a guy regarded by many as the greatest (I'm one of them, I have him higher than Robbo) and certainly the greatest Heavyweight of alltime by a country mile doesn't get as much recognition for this fight as he should.....

Is it really hard to accept a guy who beat Foreman when past his best and Frazier twice !!.........Would be too good for a talented hard hitting slugger that was probably past his prime ??

The second fight is more controversial ..............Me I think Liston cacked his load not just by Ali the fighter but Ali the Man with his immense confidence and his crazy antics....But there is more cause in that fight to suspect underhand dealings I guess.......

Plenty of fans still think Liston threw the first...............I just think it's disrespectful to a wonderful performance by a guy who was too everything for Liston and everyone else..

We saw what a great jab, faster hands.. coupled with combinations can do in the Tyson-Douglas fight..............No one claims that was fixed.....

Was the Liston that fought Ali much better than that "Tyson" !!..... when he fought Ali ??.............Was Clay/Ali better than Douglas ??......Think we'd all say yes !!

Mystery to me why so many people are conspiracy theorists.............

Sirhan killed RFK
Oswald killed JFK
Armstrong landed on the Moon..
Bush didn't bring down The Towers..
Ali beat the crap out of Liston..........

Notice I kept off James Earl Ray killing King though !!

Erm I was not aware there was a ''conspiracy'' involving Ali and Liston's fight I thought it was clear Ali won.

As for the other ''theories'' you suggest I will say there is ample evidence that Oswald was a patsy (first of many) Armstrong landed in a hollywood set somewhere in the desert (area 51) Bush did'nt bring down the tower's you're right there but the secret service especially those with access to DRONE TECHNOLOGY and a certain ''friend'' from abroad DID bring down the towers to kick off a Middle Eastern agenda which we are half way through today.

Ali beat Liston first time because he was better than him.

However I do think Liston could of continued in the rematch. Not sure of the reason. Maybe he had to take a dive or perhaps as you mentioned, he knew Ali was going to give him a beating so perhaps took the easy way out.

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Erm I was not aware there was a ''conspiracy'' involving Ali and Liston's fight I thought it was clear Ali won.

As for the other ''theories'' you suggest I will say there is ample evidence that Oswald was a patsy (first of many) Armstrong landed in a hollywood set somewhere in the desert (area 51) Bush did'nt bring down the tower's you're right there but the secret service especially those with access to DRONE TECHNOLOGY and a certain ''friend'' from abroad DID bring down the towers to kick off a Middle Eastern agenda which we are half way through today.

Okay Mate....

Every single time

You knew that was gonna happen Trussy

I think it's the manor of the defeat that people find hard to accept. If Ali would have fought even 4 hard rounds and won then it wouldn't be so bad. For the biggest baddest man in the sport at the time to go out within a round by a punch that didn't look that bad was hard to take. (Plus the fact it's not exactly been the cleanest sport)

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Never understood why a guy regarded by many as the greatest (I'm one of them, I have him higher than Robbo) and certainly the greatest Heavyweight of alltime by a country mile doesn't get as much recognition for this fight as he should.....

Is it really hard to accept a guy who beat Foreman when past his best and Frazier twice !!.........Would be too good for a talented hard hitting slugger that was probably past his prime ??

The second fight is more controversial ..............Me I think Liston cacked his load not just by Ali the fighter but Ali the Man with his immense confidence and his crazy antics....But there is more cause in that fight to suspect underhand dealings I guess.......

Plenty of fans still think Liston threw the first...............I just think it's disrespectful to a wonderful performance by a guy who was too everything for Liston and everyone else..

We saw what a great jab, faster hands.. coupled with combinations can do in the Tyson-Douglas fight..............No one claims that was fixed.....

Was the Liston that fought Ali much better than that "Tyson" !!..... when he fought Ali ??.............Was Clay/Ali better than Douglas ??......Think we'd all say yes !!

Mystery to me why so many people are conspiracy theorists.............

Sirhan killed RFK
Oswald killed JFK
Armstrong landed on the Moon..
Bush didn't bring down The Towers..
Ali beat the crap out of Liston..........

Notice I kept off James Earl Ray killing King though !!

You might be right about the fight, but you have done your credibility no favours with the other 4!

Derbymanc wrote:You knew that was gonna happen Trussy

I think it's the manor of the defeat that people find hard to accept. If Ali would have fought even 4 hard rounds and won then it wouldn't be so bad. For the biggest baddest man in the sport at the time to go out within a round by a punch that didn't look that bad was hard to take. (Plus the fact it's not exactly been the cleanest sport)

I must have been imagining Liston's eye swollen..

As long as it fits your narrative you'll remember :-)

Kidding big fella, I was just pointing out that that may be why some people find it hard to accept that Ali beat Liston. There could have been other bits and bobs around it but I think Ali would have beaten him either way.

And of course everyone loves a good conspiracy (some more than most )

tunes666 wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Never understood why a guy regarded by many as the greatest (I'm one of them, I have him higher than Robbo) and certainly the greatest Heavyweight of alltime by a country mile doesn't get as much recognition for this fight as he should.....

Is it really hard to accept a guy who beat Foreman when past his best and Frazier twice !!.........Would be too good for a talented hard hitting slugger that was probably past his prime ??

The second fight is more controversial ..............Me I think Liston cacked his load not just by Ali the fighter but Ali the Man with his immense confidence and his crazy antics....But there is more cause in that fight to suspect underhand dealings I guess.......

Plenty of fans still think Liston threw the first...............I just think it's disrespectful to a wonderful performance by a guy who was too everything for Liston and everyone else..

We saw what a great jab, faster hands.. coupled with combinations can do in the Tyson-Douglas fight..............No one claims that was fixed.....

Was the Liston that fought Ali much better than that "Tyson" !!..... when he fought Ali ??.............Was Clay/Ali better than Douglas ??......Think we'd all say yes !!

Mystery to me why so many people are conspiracy theorists.............

Sirhan killed RFK
Oswald killed JFK
Armstrong landed on the Moon..
Bush didn't bring down The Towers..
Ali beat the crap out of Liston..........

Notice I kept off James Earl Ray killing King though !!

You might be right about the fight, but you have done your credibility no favours with the other 4!

I love the Twin Towers conspiracists..........I love it how 300 people on two planes including staff can go missing..........Never to turn up....

I wish I was a believer in them..........Make life much more interesting..

It's Liston's mafia connection that clouds it for me. Definitely strange fights. There was a definite level of criminal corruption back then that's not around today (plenty of corruption at the highest level only it's the promoters and sanctioning bodies rather than the Gambino crew)

It does make me wonder, did the mafia ever try and get into Ali? I've read a fair few books on him and can't remember it being mentioned. Was he protected enough by the Nation Of Islam?

It's not the result, but the manner of it that led to the speculation, Liston looked dreadful, his punches were slow, he didn't cut of the ring, had no rhythm, and then even when Ali was blinded he still didn't really look like himself. It just was too easy for Ali.
Couple that with Ali's connections to the NOI, and Liston's gangland links, it was no wonder that people questioned it.
Personally I give it the benefit of the doubt and that Liston , for whatever reason, just didn't get going, and he was up against someone with the rights tools to beat him in any case.
the case for it being a fixed is also aided by Liston's successful ten fight comeback following the second Ali fight, which went some way to dispel the idea that Liston had simples aged overnight before meeting Clay.
So whilst I believe it wasn't a fix, I wouldn't be amazed were evidence were to come to light that proved it was.

Always thought first fight was on the level and that Liston was fed up by the second. Theres a fair amount of experts who also claimed that Liston gave up once Ali got injured and he had to go through all that rubbish again. I don't think he could have beaten Ali anyway but it might have been a brilliant fight if he was at his best.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

tunes666 wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Never understood why a guy regarded by many as the greatest (I'm one of them, I have him higher than Robbo) and certainly the greatest Heavyweight of alltime by a country mile doesn't get as much recognition for this fight as he should.....

Is it really hard to accept a guy who beat Foreman when past his best and Frazier twice !!.........Would be too good for a talented hard hitting slugger that was probably past his prime ??

The second fight is more controversial ..............Me I think Liston cacked his load not just by Ali the fighter but Ali the Man with his immense confidence and his crazy antics....But there is more cause in that fight to suspect underhand dealings I guess.......

Plenty of fans still think Liston threw the first...............I just think it's disrespectful to a wonderful performance by a guy who was too everything for Liston and everyone else..

We saw what a great jab, faster hands.. coupled with combinations can do in the Tyson-Douglas fight..............No one claims that was fixed.....

Was the Liston that fought Ali much better than that "Tyson" !!..... when he fought Ali ??.............Was Clay/Ali better than Douglas ??......Think we'd all say yes !!

Mystery to me why so many people are conspiracy theorists.............

Sirhan killed RFK
Oswald killed JFK
Armstrong landed on the Moon..
Bush didn't bring down The Towers..
Ali beat the crap out of Liston..........

Notice I kept off James Earl Ray killing King though !!

You might be right about the fight, but you have done your credibility no favours with the other 4!

I love the Twin Towers conspiracists..........I love it how 300 people on two planes including staff can go missing..........Never to turn up....

I wish I was a believer in them..........Make life much more interesting..

The number of people that the US Govt would need to swear to secrecy/bribe/threaten to kill would be immense. There's no way that many people could all maintain a stony silence that many years afterwards. The cleaners at my place know more about what senior management are doing that the actual Police Staff.

DAVE667 wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

tunes666 wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Never understood why a guy regarded by many as the greatest (I'm one of them, I have him higher than Robbo) and certainly the greatest Heavyweight of alltime by a country mile doesn't get as much recognition for this fight as he should.....

Is it really hard to accept a guy who beat Foreman when past his best and Frazier twice !!.........Would be too good for a talented hard hitting slugger that was probably past his prime ??

The second fight is more controversial ..............Me I think Liston cacked his load not just by Ali the fighter but Ali the Man with his immense confidence and his crazy antics....But there is more cause in that fight to suspect underhand dealings I guess.......

Plenty of fans still think Liston threw the first...............I just think it's disrespectful to a wonderful performance by a guy who was too everything for Liston and everyone else..

We saw what a great jab, faster hands.. coupled with combinations can do in the Tyson-Douglas fight..............No one claims that was fixed.....

Was the Liston that fought Ali much better than that "Tyson" !!..... when he fought Ali ??.............Was Clay/Ali better than Douglas ??......Think we'd all say yes !!

Mystery to me why so many people are conspiracy theorists.............

Sirhan killed RFK
Oswald killed JFK
Armstrong landed on the Moon..
Bush didn't bring down The Towers..
Ali beat the crap out of Liston..........

Notice I kept off James Earl Ray killing King though !!

You might be right about the fight, but you have done your credibility no favours with the other 4!

I love the Twin Towers conspiracists..........I love it how 300 people on two planes including staff can go missing..........Never to turn up....

I wish I was a believer in them..........Make life much more interesting..

The number of people that the US Govt would need to swear to secrecy/bribe/threaten to kill would be immense. There's no way that many people could all maintain a stony silence that many years afterwards. The cleaners at my place know more about what senior management are doing that the actual Police Staff.

Couldn't keep a little burglary like watergate quiet !!

rewatched the 2nd fight. It could be on the level. Liston fights on, forgot about the bizarre Walcott refereeing, waves them in and runs to the time keeper.

The non punch in the 2nd fight started the mess. Jersey Joe could have been in on it.

Strongback wrote:The non punch in the 2nd fight started the mess. Jersey Joe could have been in on it.

Poor old Jersey Joe................Getting nailed off 606's resident idiot..

if the second fight was fixed, they made an absolute balls up of it. Liston claimed he didn't start getting up because he never heard a count, which never started as Ali never went to the corner, eventually Liston got up, the fight restarted, and Nat Flisher (spelling?) yells to Wallcott that the fights is over. so Joe stops it.
So there are only two plausible explainations;
1. Liston intended to throw the fight and so went down under the first right hand, but Ali's pratting about prevented the ten count, and realising that he couldn't just lie there forever, he got up and had to carry on.
2. That was no fix at all and Liston's account of it it true.

Any other explanation just lacks credibilty- as almost everyone involved would have had to be in on it.