Wales v England - 6 February 2015 - Match thread

[BamBam]

Wales v England
6 February 2015
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
Kick off at 20.05

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (FFR)
AR1: Romain Poite (FFR)
AR2: Mathieu Raynal (FFR)
TMO: Simon McDowell (IRFU)

Live on BBC1

Wales

01. Gethin Jenkins
02. Richard Hibbard
03. Samson Lee
04. Alun Wyn Jones
05. Jake Ball
06. Dan Lydiate
07. Sam Warburton (c)
08. Toby Faletau

09. Rhys Webb
10. Dan Biggar
11. George North
12. Jamie Roberts
13. Jonathan Davies
14. Alex Cuthbert
15. Leigh Halfpenny

16. Scott Baldwin
17. Paul James
18. Aaron Jarvis
19. Luke Charteris
20. Justin Tipuric
21. Mike Phillips
22. Rhys Preistland
23. Liam Williams

England

15. Mike Brown
14. Anthony Watson
13. Jonathan Joseph
12. Luther Burrell
11. Jonny May
10. George Ford
09. Ben Youngs  

01. Joe Marler
02. Dylan Hartley
03. Dan Cole
04. David Attwood
05. George Kruis
06. James Haskell
07. Chris Robshaw (captain)
08. Billy Vunipola

16. Tom Youngs
17. Mako Vunipola
18. Kieran Brookes
19. Tom Croft
20. Nick Easter
21. Richard Wigglesworth
22. Danny Cipriani
23. Billy Twelvetrees

[Guest]

Strong, if predictable Welsh side.

Although England have a lot of injuries I'm quite nervous about this game.

[TJ]

two match threads running now

[LordDowlais]

Strong, if predictable Welsh side.

Although England have a lot of injuries I'm quite nervous about this game.

IronMike, I am nervous, yet quietly confident at the same time, I know it seems impossible, but that is how I am feeling. I am confident that Wales can go out and win well, but I am also nervous as I do not know how this new England side will play. Everybody is going on about Englands pack, but the Welsh pack aren't to shabby either. If Wales get a few early scores then it will be a long night for England, I just hope the ref looks at Dylan Hartley very close at scrum time, he likes to pop up all the time and that should be a penalty, but he always gets away with it.

[LordDowlais]

two match threads running now

The other one is not realy a match thread though.

[LondonTiger]

two match threads running now

Nope, this is the only one. Other one was about who the England team may be.


Welsh team as expected, though it could be argued that the outside backs are not in their best form. Should be a comfortable win for Wales being the more settled team and at home.

[lostinwales]

Strong, if predictable Welsh side.

Although England have a lot of injuries I'm quite nervous about this game.

IronMike, I am nervous, yet quietly confident at the same time, I know it seems impossible, but that is how I am feeling. I am confident that Wales can go out and win well, but I am also nervous as I do not know how this new England side will play. Everybody is going on about Englands pack, but the Welsh pack aren't to shabby either. If Wales get a few early scores then it will be a long night for England, I just hope the ref looks at Dylan Hartley very close at scrum time, he likes to pop up all the time and that should be a penalty, but he always gets away with it.

And that is the third time you have mentioned Dylan Hartley and popping out of scrums today. That really gets to you doesnt it?

Lets say its as likely as Hibbard making one of the hardest tackles in the history of the 6N but knocking himself out in the process

[yappysnap]

Nervous about the game, I don't think it'll be embarrassing bit I think Wales have the experience and cohesion to close us out and keep us to just three pointers.

[TJ]

two match threads running now

Nope, this is the only one. Other one was about who the England team may be.


Welsh team as expected, though it could be argued that the outside backs are not in their best form. Should be a comfortable win for Wales being the more settled team and at home.

apologies.

[lostinwales]

Its going to be a hard physical game with lots of mistakes by both teams

I expect Wales to play badly, but I don't know if we have had enough time to find the coherence to make the most of it, so I think the scores will be close.

[beshocked]

England seem to have a new team every 6 nations!

Key match ups IMO will be

whoever starts for England at 1 vs Samson Lee - whoever faces Samson Lee will have the edge in experience and must make it count. Samson Lee has been talked up as a great prospect for Wales but this is the battle that both sides will be targetting. All 3 of the current England LH options - Marler,Corbisiero and Mako are strong (Mako performed well against two strong Munster and Clermont frontrows too). With injury to Wilson on the TH side and Cole only just coming back from injury, a lot of English hopes will rely on the LH side also.

whoever starts at 5 vs Jake Ball - inexperience vs inexperience

no 8 vs Faletau - both will be key to getting their teams on the front foot. If it's Billy vs Toby it will be cousin vs cousin - both can cause a lot of damage if allowed to. Billy probably has more to prove as he lost his place to Morgan and will be expected to be targetted. Both are potential man of the match winners.

12 vs Jamie Roberts - whoever is at 12 for England will need to keep Roberts quiet as well as help marshall and get the England backline moving. Roberts of course is an important go to man for Wales with the hard yards. His partnership with Davies will be a tough prospect for England.

[LordDowlais]

And that is the third time you have mentioned Dylan Hartley and popping out of scrums today. That really gets to you doesnt it?

Yes it does, because it is a blatant infringement that never gets punished.

[funnyExiledScot]

Pretty strong statement from Gatland picking his team nice and early. Sends out a clear message of strength and confidence, whereas England seem to be in disarray at the moment.

Still, England still have Cole, Hartley and Corbs fit and ready to start, with Attwood at lock and Robshaw and Billy V in the back row. That's a pretty handy collection of forwards and for all the confidence coming from the Welsh side/media, I do think this will be a pretty close contest.

I actually wonder whether the difference won't come down to goal kicking, with Wales spoilt for choice between Biggar and Halfpenny, whereas Ford can blow hot and cold.

[lostinwales]

Corbs may not make the bench. His time will come again, as long as his body holds out, but now may not be the time.

Despite early shakiness Marler has turned into a very good LH.

[beshocked]

FES the good thing for England is that they have had to do this rebuilding a few times in the last few seasons.

An inexperienced England under lancaster hasn't fared too badly in general. England don't have Wales' continuity but that can be dangerous for Wales because England have that unknown quantity.

There should be a lot of pace and dynamism in that backline, if the England forwards can build some momentum and a decent platform then it could be a belter of a game.

You mention goal kicking, I think England need to avoid getting into a penalty kicking battle with Halfpenny because there will only be one winner.

England do need to roll the dice a bit IMO. Build the pace and tempo, get the big men chasing shadows.

With that in mind I would encourage the starting 9 for England to go for the quick taps at opportune moments.

I would take a gamble at 1 and pick Mako because he's another ball carrier which would take the pressure off Billy at 8. Need to use Billy as a decoy too.

Let's not try to overpower Wales, let's try and get them guessing.

Also if we open up the game we could then bring on Care and Cipriani to keep up the tempo.

[thomh]

Marler was always better than people gave him credit for. Conversely, Corbisiero is an excellent scrummager but his mammoth reputation largely comes from a couple of specific beastings he has given out in the past, particularly v Tom Court (out of position) and Ben Alexander on the Lions tour. Marler's form in the Autumn matched that and he also completely outscrummaged Mike Ross in the RCC the week after. Not much between them really, but Marler is almost always fit.

[lostinwales]

All very true. In the old days it was supposed to be England using brute force and penalty kicks, and Wales with the runners.

This one could well be the other way around.

[HQ matt]

Its really very difficult to say how England are developing from one test series to the next, there is just so little consistency of selection. It does not however seem to have affected the pack that much, England are generally competitive up front and I expect them to be the same on Friday night.

The backs however are a different matter, people like to find fault with individuals, care crabs across, Farrell stands to deep, 36 makes too many mistakes etc. But really its a lot to do with unfamiliarity breeding a lack of cohesion. Wales have consistency and familiarity in the backs, England do not.

Brian Moore made the point in the telegraph that as a result of the injury list england need to make sure they are tight defensively and only play in the right areas. I think he is right but the backs will still need to kick well and be clinical when they are in those right areas.

If the backs fail to perform in attack then Englands only hope will be to squeak home off the back a powerful scrum, if however the welsh pack gets on top it could be comfortable for them.

[Guest]

I know selection is tough, but I just can't see how Gatland has not picked Liam Williams.  The form fulllback in Wales.  Arguably the form fullback in the whole Pro12?  It's not like the decision was hard either - Halfpenny is not tearing up trees at FB for Toulon (1 try is it?); Cuthbert is very out of form.  So he could have fitted Williams in by putting him on the wing over Cuthbert or shifting 1/2p to the wing (my preferred option).

Also, Scott Williams - probably the form welsh centre.  Roberts had a good week or two recently, but not consistent this season.  JD2 has been injured and off form too.  But Scott Williams is dropped from the squad altogether.  We have no centre options on the bench - George North, I assume, will move in field if there are injuries?  I would have gone for Roberts and Williams.

No no.8 cover - I'm a Dragons fan but even I (out of my one eye) have noticed the recent decline in form of Toby Faletau.  He's not devastating from the base of the scrum, doesn't batter through 5 defenders like a Scott Quinell or a Ben Morgan.  He makes yards through gaps as he's a pacy 8.  He just seems to have gone missing for the Dragons a bit this season, and I don't feel he was that effective in the autumn.  Not terrible, but didn't stand out.  That's fine if we had cover.  A poor game and we could sub him.  But we have no 8 cover.  Not on the bench, not even in the squad.  I'm guessing Warbs could stand in or move across?  Not really my idea of an 8! And Tipuric would come on which would give us a bit of an unbalanced/underpowered back row.  Although I guess that would mean we'd have more 'ground hogs' to win turnover ball!  It would be jackal city!

[lostinwales]

I would have been a lot more concerned had the Welsh team been 'refreshed' as it were. Still going to be very tight

[Luckless Pedestrian]

I expect Wales to play badly, but I don't know if we have had enough time to find the coherence to make the most of it, so I think the scores will be close.

I don't want to start an argument, but could you explain the thinking behind that? Is it because we usually start the tournament slowly, or are we just a poor side?

[nathan]

I expect Wales to play badly, but I don't know if we have had enough time to find the coherence to make the most of it, so I think the scores will be close.

I don't want to start an argument, but could you explain the thinking behind that? Is it because we usually start the tournament slowly, or are we just a poor side?

Think it was mentioned in the other thread that it was because they usually start slowly

[Luckless Pedestrian]

It's true, we do usually start slowly, but all the same it's quite a statement. I don't expect any of Wales's opponents to play badly, especially if they're playing at home.

[GavinDragon]

As ever not much too separate these two,

On paper we are clear favourites but then when have we ever worn the favourites tag well?

[Alex_Germany]

Strong, if predictable Welsh side.

Although England have a lot of injuries I'm quite nervous about this game.

I'm quite nervous because of the injuries.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

England are never weak, especially in the forwards. If there's any complacency or overconfidence, I hope it's limited to (some of) the fans.

[LondonTiger]

It's true, we do usually start slowly, but all the same it's quite a statement. I don't expect any of Wales's opponents to play badly, especially if they're playing at home.

I certainly think badly was a poor choice of words. We are however unlikely to see any free flowing, old style Welsh rugby. We are more likely to see a very pragmatic, defence led approach. This current Welsh team remind me a lot of Saracens. Both teams can destroy an opposing team with their defence - especially if that team try to play too much rugby in their own half. Wales will look to smash England backwards in defence and then capitalise on any mistakes to give the big runners quick front foot ball.

England therefore need to ensure they kick well, chase better as a unit and try to slow down any Welsh ball. We then need to be running the ball when the defence is less organised and constantly keep the wingers turning and guessing. Succeed in this and Howley's typewriter attack may return and we may well get tries. Fail and we could get a thumping.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

I'd definitely get Ford kicking in behind North and Cuthbert. Neither of them is quick on the turn and neither of them has a decent boot.

[Cardiff Dave]

England know what to expect. Wales don't. I'm crushing grapes already.

[TJ]

Its really very difficult to say how England are developing from one test series to the next, there is just so little consistency of selection.

for me this is three things - building a squad of 30+ players all of who can slot in at any time - the only way you win win a WC these days
Difficulty in finding a centre combination that works - lots tried and no one claiming the places
Big injury list.

the first of these is one of the differences between Wales and England - =Wales have a first team and subs - so selection is settled. England have been trying to produce two first teams and a set of subs as a part of aiming to win the WC. Also before Lancaster came in too many players were past their best and thus even more new selections were needed.

[The Saint]

And that is the third time you have mentioned Dylan Hartley and popping out of scrums today. That really gets to you doesnt it?

Yes it does, because it is a blatant infringement that never gets punished.

A few do it, not just Hartley. Gethin and Hibbard occasionally do it. Castrogiovanni does it a lot yet everyone says he's world class.

[The Saint]

I expect Wales to play badly, but I don't know if we have had enough time to find the coherence to make the most of it, so I think the scores will be close.

I don't want to start an argument, but could you explain the thinking behind that? Is it because we usually start the tournament slowly, or are we just a poor side?

Think it was mentioned in the other thread that it was because they usually start slowly

It depends on the conditioning. If it was anything like it was in the autumn series, then we won't be starting slowly.

[lostinwales]

I expect Wales to play badly, but I don't know if we have had enough time to find the coherence to make the most of it, so I think the scores will be close.

I don't want to start an argument, but could you explain the thinking behind that? Is it because we usually start the tournament slowly, or are we just a poor side?

Apologies if the word is too strong. When Wales click they are very good, but they dont click that often, and they dont tend to start the 6N well. They are still a big strong well organized unit, and as said if we end up just trading penalties Wales should win. But the selection is so static, and full of players who play I also don't think they play too well as favorites. They are expecting to do well because of the injury situation and that isnt always the best place to begin.

As for England who knows what will turn up? They have the backs to cause a whole heap of trouble if they click, but that is a big if. Forwards is very interesting, and a lot will depend upon how well the new guys adapt to what is going to be a huge experience. If they do its potentially a much more heavyweight unit than we would normally put out and that could edge things up front our way. Or they could just collapse under the pressure of the noise and the ferocity of the Welsh pack. Who knows. It wont be long til we find out now

[maestegmafia]

England know what to expect. Wales don't. I'm crushing grapes already.

I think what you wrote sums up my thoughts too. We are a settled team, to be honest not many know who england will pick.

Slade called up to the senior squad is a very good call by their coaches...! He could actually be everything they hoped Twelvetrees was going to be. He and Joseph could be a great centre pairing.

[Gwlad]

England are in dire straits but you can't look at their situation the way you would with Wales, they still have players like Haskell and Cirpriani to draw on, and Wales are notorious slow starters. England will come at them like wounded animals in my opinion and the first quarter ought to me pretty manic. If Lee has a good game i think we win, fact is the English forwards are weakened but still a superb unit and it is in the tight the game will be own or lost.

[mzan]

And that is the third time you have mentioned Dylan Hartley and popping out of scrums today. That really gets to you doesnt it?

Yes it does, because it is a blatant infringement that never gets punished.

Coming up in the scrum is not in itself actually a penalty.  When players do come up there's usually a number of penalty offences that have led to it, by their team or the opposition.  A front row that comes up whilst going forward is rarely under much suspicion by the ref if the initial circumstances were legal, the retreating side has usually infringed to disrupt the scrum.

http://www.sareferees.com/laws/view/2830731/

http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?14109-standing-up-in-scrum

http://www.rugby-talk.com/2011/04/scrum-myths/

[Luckless Pedestrian]

I expect Wales to play badly, but I don't know if we have had enough time to find the coherence to make the most of it, so I think the scores will be close.

I don't want to start an argument, but could you explain the thinking behind that? Is it because we usually start the tournament slowly, or are we just a poor side?

Apologies if the word is too strong. When Wales click they are very good, but they dont click that often, and they dont tend to start the 6N well. They are still a big strong well organized unit, and as said if we end up just trading penalties Wales should win. But the selection is so static, and full of players who play I also don't think they play too well as favorites. They are expecting to do well because of the injury situation and that isnt always the best place to begin.

Just because some fans are expecting it doesn't mean the players are. I'll bet the emphasis from the coaches is on disregarding the injuries.

[BigTrevsbigmac]

I expect Wales to play badly, but I don't know if we have had enough time to find the coherence to make the most of it, so I think the scores will be close.

I don't want to start an argument, but could you explain the thinking behind that? Is it because we usually start the tournament slowly, or are we just a poor side?

Think it was mentioned in the other thread that it was because they usually start slowly

It depends on the conditioning. If it was anything like it was in the autumn series, then we won't be starting slowly.

Well if that's true then if Wales play like they did against Fiji in the second game Scotland will be licking their lips at Murrayfield.

[The Saint]

Yeah, and Scotland will still lose. 8 years unbeaten .

[Guest]

I expect Wales to play badly, but I don't know if we have had enough time to find the coherence to make the most of it, so I think the scores will be close.

I don't want to start an argument, but could you explain the thinking behind that? Is it because we usually start the tournament slowly, or are we just a poor side?

Think it was mentioned in the other thread that it was because they usually start slowly

It depends on the conditioning. If it was anything like it was in the autumn series, then we won't be starting slowly.

Well if that's true then if Wales play like they did against Fiji in the second game Scotland will be licking their lips at Murrayfield.

... what game against Fiji? Don't know what you're talking about!

[gregortree]

Tuesday and no prematch vitriol in sight. And no, I will not start any, more of a peaceful voyeur.
All we had so far was the usual zzzzzz roof question zzzz. Still it is only Tuesday.
A massive match up for both sides in the opener of the 6 nations, and in RWC same group later this year.
What a scene...who wrote this script anyway ? MBE for their services to drama.
Need a spot of 606 edgy banter as an appetiser.

[lostinwales]

I am interested in the fuss about the conditioning of the Welsh players. Now I know that they have a very good reputation here, and can well believe that the right kind of extra training is the kind of thing that will build over the season, and could very much help come the RWC.

But what strikes me now is that if they had some kind of magic formula then surely the players involved would be ripping up trees for their clubs/regions? Now I am sure some of them are, but it is not translating into recent club performances.

[gregortree]

The admirable Hibbard has had a good season at Glaws, with liberal 'rests' or 'injuries' to protect his net condition. And plenty of Prem scrummaging training. Plus he tackles like a demon and carries an effective yard or two over the gainline. I suspect his conditioning is at a pretty good level. Just playing for the wrong side on Friday. I'll be a bit shizoid when I see him with the ball.

[wales606]

I think this game will come down to defence, particularly the English defence.

If the English midfield doesn't have a good defensive structure or misses too many tackles then the Welsh centres and wingers will make easy yards which will put Wales on the front foot and lead to tries or penalties which Halfpenny will kick.

The Welsh defence will also need to be strong, I expect the midfield to cope well, even if the new English backs throw something new at them, but it is the defensive linespeed and maul defence that could be a problem. If Wales give England easy yards at mauls and through the forwards, we will lose.


I'm slightly worried, the focus is too much on England as underdogs and I hope that it doesn't creep into the Welsh psyche. I was always going to be worried before this game I suppose, so I don't know if this is just background panic or not.

[George Carlin]

Wilson out is bad news. Any props worthy of replacing the big feller?

[lostinwales]

Wilson out is bad news. Any props worthy of replacing the big feller?

Some guy called Cole who apparently used to play a bit. May be a bit rusty though

[gregortree]

Cole

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/feb/02/englands-dan-cole-comes-in-from-cold-for-six-nations-opener-in-wales

[nathan]

Wilson out is bad news. Any props worthy of replacing the big feller?

Some guy called Cole who apparently used to play a bit. May be a bit rusty though

He shouldn't be too rusty, he did get a run of 8 games or so after his long lay off with neck problems.

[beshocked]

I am interested in the fuss about the conditioning of the Welsh players. Now I know that they have a very good reputation here, and can well believe that the right kind of extra training is the kind of thing that will build over the season, and could very much help come the RWC.

But what strikes me now is that if they had some kind of magic formula then surely the players involved would be ripping up trees for their clubs/regions? Now I am sure some of them are, but it is not translating into recent club performances.

Lostinwales it's motivation. Surely playing in front of a packed full Millennium Stadium is going to get the blood pumping a little faster than a quarter full Liberty stadium!?

You have many fans of the Welsh national side who are completely disinterested in the clubs/regions.

There is no doubt that the Welsh team should be up for this - it's against England in the 6 nations opener at the Millennium Stadium with an opportunity to lay down a marker before the rugby world cup later this year. No excuses for starting badly for either side.

England lost against France last 6 nations primarily IMO because they started slowly and gave themselves too much to do. England cannot afford to do the same. Like any away game if you can keep the crowd quiet you can suck out the momentum of a team.

If England get on top early then doubts might creep into the Welsh team and coaches. A try in the opening minutes for England would do nicely.

Equally when England lost 30-3 to Wales in 2013 - Tuilagi blew a clear try scoring opportunity early on which could have settled nerves. Not saying it was a turning point but confidence and belief can either come and go.

Like Wales-NZ in the autumn internationals - Wales ran out of steam and as they were flailing NZ hit them again and again.

The way England beat NZ in 2012 was to shell shock them - for once the normally cool headed NZers were flustered - Carter uncharacteristically missed two relatively straightforward penalties.. England forced NZ to chase the game then hit them with 3 big right hooks.

[lostinwales]

I think what I was trying to get at is that right now the 'conditioning' stuff is more to do with psychology than physicality.

Getting the heads right for both teams will be a big issue.

Vs NZ we shut them out first half, then when they did turn it on and got a couple of tries, Manu went and did his thing. Happy days and far too long ago.

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