Wales v England - 6 February 2015 - Match thread

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Wales v England
6 February 2015
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
Kick off at 20.05

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (FFR)
AR1: Romain Poite (FFR)
AR2: Mathieu Raynal (FFR)
TMO: Simon McDowell (IRFU)

Live on BBC1

Wales

01. Gethin Jenkins
02. Richard Hibbard
03. Samson Lee
04. Alun Wyn Jones
05. Jake Ball
06. Dan Lydiate
07. Sam Warburton (c)
08. Toby Faletau

09. Rhys Webb
10. Dan Biggar
11. George North
12. Jamie Roberts
13. Jonathan Davies
14. Alex Cuthbert
15. Leigh Halfpenny

16. Scott Baldwin
17. Paul James
18. Aaron Jarvis
19. Luke Charteris
20. Justin Tipuric
21. Mike Phillips
22. Rhys Preistland
23. Liam Williams

England

15. Mike Brown
14. Anthony Watson
13. Jonathan Joseph
12. Luther Burrell
11. Jonny May
10. George Ford
09. Ben Youngs  

01. Joe Marler
02. Dylan Hartley
03. Dan Cole
04. David Attwood
05. George Kruis
06. James Haskell
07. Chris Robshaw (captain)
08. Billy Vunipola

16. Tom Youngs
17. Mako Vunipola
18. Kieran Brookes
19. Tom Croft
20. Nick Easter
21. Richard Wigglesworth
22. Danny Cipriani
23. Billy Twelvetrees

[nathan]

I think he pinged for holding on far to quickly

[Steve_rugby]

I thought Garcia had a good game.

Who ?

As to the poster that said England weren't 12 points better, then the wrongly disallowed try and conversion would have put England12 points in front.....

[Ozzy3213]

Yeah, I agree on that nathan, players had barely got to ground befor ehe had the whistle in his mouth. the best that can be said is that he was consistent though. He was quick on hit both ways and all through the game, which ultimately is what you want, as opposed to some short ones and some long.

[TJ]

I think he pinged for holding on far to quickly

I thought he did a pretty good job at the breakdown personally. I like to see a ref ensuring a fair contest. He did ping a couple of holding ons quickly but in both cases the player had gone to ground, a defending player was over the ball trying to legally pick it up and wasn't allowed to do so.

[Ozzy3213]

I don't want to bang on about the referee however.

I am more interested in where this leaves both teams in RWC terms. At face value England now have to be firm favourites to win the pool, not just because of the win, but more because mentally Wales appear to have a problem shifting from Gatlandball to a plan B when the former isn't working.

[Tiger/Chief]

Not sure who it was but on page 18 I read that they believed only 2 players would come back into the 15 when they return from injury!

Not sure I agree I'd say that probably 5 will come back in with as many as 9 into the match day 23

[gregortree]

Wales assistant coach before the match:  expect the unexpected. Well that sure happened. Well predicted that man.

[TightHEAD]

Just like to thank Wales for turning up, I know its hard to put together a squad of players from your very small pool that you guys have.

On a serious note why is it Warrenball sometimes works and the other 9 out of 10 times it doesn't?

[TJ]

Wales assistant coach before the match:  expect the unexpected. Well that sure happened. Well predicted that man.

Ah but the unexpected was "resort to gatlandball" - 'cos we all expected them to change. double bluff

[TJ]

Just like to thank Wales for turning up, I know its hard to put together a squad of players from your very small pool that you guys have.

On a serious note why is it Warrenball sometimes works and the other 9 out of 10 times it doesn't?

If they can get beyond the game line on the crash ball, kick well and kickchase well ( and the opposition drop the ball / don't run the ball back) they make forward progress. But its easy to counter tactically. Executing the counter tactics is another thing however.

[Guest]

Just like to thank Wales for turning up, I know its hard to put together a squad of players from your very small pool that you guys have.

On a serious note why is it Warrenball sometimes works and the other 9 out of 10 times it doesn't?

I'm not a fan of Gatlandball, but you've obviously got your stats wrong there. It works 9 times out of 10 against Scotland, and about 50% of the time against England. Why you say it doesn't work 9 times out of 10 when we out loss rate isn't 90% baffles me?!

[TightHEAD]

I think you are confusing Gatlandball with Warrenball.

[bedfordwelsh]

As usual I tend to stay off the board straight after the game because emotions tend to run high and people spout a load of rubbish and proved right.

As for the game and first off Well Done England thoroughly well deserved you out played us in 2nd half in every facet of the game.

There are a few things I would like to clear up that I pointed out this week and before hand:

I said before that Jenkins isn't the player he once was and James should of started and stand by it.

I said Norths defence was poor and it proved again last night and I stand by it.

I questioned if JD was up to it given his lack of game time for Clermont and it proved right.

Every time Webb box kicks I have kittens and was same last night.

I have always said Howley and McBryde aren't up to it and again it proved right.

Changes for next week well I would go with:

James Hibbard Lee
Ball AWJ
Warburton Faletau Tipuric

Webb Biggar

Halfpenny Roberts Sc Williams Cuthbert

Li Williams

[majesticimperialman]

Wales looked very poor yesterday. Maybe it is because it was the first game of the 6ns, But they had a lot moor experience players (caps wise) than England.

If i was a Welsh fan i would be very dissapointed in that game yesterday.

Well played England deserved winners.

[TightHEAD]

Having watched the game again I don't think you can blame North for the JJ try, as he clearly wasn't with us at that stage.

The Welsh Medics took a serious unacceptable risk with North last night, hopefully he will recover from his two KO.

[majesticimperialman]

Bedford.

Should George North have stayed on after the collision of Heads? Personaly i thought he should of gone off and stayed off.

[TightHEAD]

Not even up for debate, he should have gone.

[bedfordwelsh]

Wales looked very poor yesterday. Maybe it is because it was the first game of the 6ns, But they had a lot moor experience players (caps wise) than  England.

If i was a Welsh fan i would be very dissapointed  in  that game yesterday.

Well played England deserved winners.

Can't argue with that Maj though I never bought into this weakened English side rubbish, those of us who watch rugby other than just the 6 Nations knew that the back line you picked were the form players and there's no such thing as a weak England pack. Thought Haskell had a great game but Billy V looked off pace a bit and not as good as I was expecting.

[bedfordwelsh]

Bedford.

Should George North have stayed on after the collision of Heads? Personaly i thought he should of gone off and stayed off.

He should of but he didn't and he was at fault for the try along with Biggar and Webb, that said I wouldn't have started him anyway.

[Guest]

Bedford.

Should George North have stayed on after the collision of Heads? Personaly i thought he should of gone off and stayed off.

Collision of heads? Thought he got kicked in the face?

[formerly known as Sam]

Kick to the head for the first KO and clash of heads for the second. Why he didn't even have the concussion check the second time is baffling.

[DaveM]

I am genuinely happy with the win.  But have to temper any excitement about the England squad.  This was one match, a good win no doubt, but against a Wales team seemed not to be firing on all cylinders, especially as the game went on.  So whilst there are some positive signs, let's not tear off our clothes and run through the streets  feeling anything was won.  

Before we give Lancaster credit for picking this team, let's remember all he did was go down the depth charts until he found healthy bodies.  There is a reason some of these players are down the chart.  And also regarding Lancaster, why did he pull off Marler and Hartley so early?  Both were doing quite well at that moment.  

I thought George Ford was OK, but nothing more.  Clearly needs for time with his kicking coach.  But again I saw nothing that will scare other Rugby teams.  And Wiggly?  Why did he kick possession away at mid-field with only one minute left on the clock?  Really basic error.  Makes me nervous on the pitch.

All in all, a good start, but this England squad will need to continue to amp up their game in order to to win this 6 Nations.  I will have more thoughts later.

When one side plays badly it's often because the other is playing well. The second half was the best 6 Nations display from an England side in many, many years. SL and the coaches deserve lots of credit.

I was pleased Wigglesworth kicked the ball away. We didn't want to be messing around in midfield - Wales were never going to go the length of the field against us.

[Guest]

Kick to the head for the first KO and clash of heads for the second. Why he didn't even have the concussion check the second time is baffling.

There didn't appear to be any contact for the second one though. That's why I was confused.

[Guest]

The only consolation Wales can take from this is that we know they can play better. Whether Gatland can get them to play better is another thing. But we know that it's possible.

I can't help but think that this 'slow starters' thing has some element of truth. Sounds like excuse making, and I guess it is. Or 'reason making' perhaps. I've talked before about the level that these players play at club level. The English players, so we're reminded on here, play their club rugby week in week out at a much higher intensity. It's approaching international intensity/standard. The Welsh players play at a much lower level and I do think it takes a little while to 'acclimatise' to international rugby. Their club rugby is slower, less intense, smaller collisions, etc. So I think there is something in this 'slow starters' theory. I'd have to check, but the times when we've won the championship under Gats perhaps we had a relatively easy start to the campaign (e.g. Not playing one of the favourites) allowing us to improve before we meet the bigger/better nations. Gats needs to sort that because its pish poor. I blame regional rugby!

[The Saint]

I thought Garcia had a good game.

Who ?

As to the poster that said England weren't 12 points better, then the wrongly disallowed try and conversion would have put England12 points in front.....

Garces, the one you were constsntly whinging about.

Going by the laws the try was rightfully disallowed. So england were never 12 points better. I can't see how this would need explaining to you?

[ChequeredJersey]

awful awful awful.

garces will be demoted for this. you heard it here first.

are you applying for his job?

hell no. i recognise given the rules of rugby that its a poopshow, but he has had a howler tonight. at HW this would be a 20 point whupping.

Quins - what howlers?  this neutral saw none at all. bar one missed forward pass by England

I thought Garcia had a good game.

The ball not passed back into the 22 was a particularly abysmal call , several penalties for holding on, several scrums including the one that led to a try,  but that's about it

[mystiroakey]

Nice girls bambam..

Great win. Perfect start to the year.

[Rugby Fan]

Quins - what howlers?  this neutral saw none at all. bar one missed forward pass by England

I thought Garcia had a good game.

The ball not passed back into the 22 was a particularly abysmal call

That was the assistant's call.

[Nachos Jones]

Just my sober views on the match last night. I actually feel that Wales are over-coached to the point where they have lost that creative factor that only they and the French had. In the second half, England were all over them and Wales seriously lacked a leader, not sure what Warburton was doing but he was not rallying the boys well.

I have seen North's first injury and I still firmly believe that Attwood is a lucky man, had that been reviewed, like England's disallowed try, by the TMO then I believe he may have seen a card. North then should have certainly come off, especially when you have a player like Williams to replace him.

In the end, well done to England.

[The Saint]

So a poster posted a blatant wum thread last night and is still commenting on this article. All complaints on this article seem to have been blatantly ignored. Can we assume the pre-tournament warnings set out by the mod team are no longer applicable? Or as usual are you allowed to do so as long as it is directed at Wales?

[TJ]

awful awful awful.

garces will be demoted for this. you heard it here first.

are you applying for his job?

hell no. i recognise given the rules of rugby that its a poopshow, but he has had a howler tonight. at HW this would be a 20 point whupping.

Quins - what howlers?  this neutral saw none at all. bar one missed forward pass by England

I thought Garcia had a good game.

The ball not passed back into the 22 was a particularly abysmal call , several penalties for holding on, several scrums including the one that led to a try,  but that's about it

Only the 22 one was not a judgement call. I thought his calling of the breakdown was very good and the holding on pens right and the scrumthat led to a try the ball was out of the scrum before there was an infringement in the scrum so correct call.

[funnyExiledScot]

Very surprised by the result, I really thought Wales would have taken the bull by the horns and dominated this, but they came off second best in all areas bar the breakdown.

Hard to put my finger on where it went wrong, but not much happening outside Biggar where the centres and wings did little to impress.

For England I thought Cole was strong, as were Kruis and Haskell who both had excellent games. Surprised by Ford as MOTM to be honest, Joseph and Watson were both excellent outside him and Brown had some excellent touches as well.

Thoroughly deserved win for England.

[GavinDragon]

Well done England The better team by far. Dominated scrums and gainline and made use of their platform with varying offloads. See you in the WC

[Mad for Chelsea]

So a poster posted a blatant wum thread last night and is still commenting on this article. All complaints on this article seem to have been blatantly ignored. Can we assume the pre-tournament warnings set out by the mod team are no longer applicable? Or as usual are you allowed to do so as long as it is directed at Wales?

to be fair the thread has been removed has it not? for the record I complained about it too (assume others did), just seemed completely unnecessary. I'm an England/France fan, but let's try to stay generous in victory shall we? no need for silly little digs/wind-ups which serve no purpose other than to annoy the opposite fans.

[TightHEAD]

Enjoy the rest of the rugby action this weekend Saint.

Don't let it get to you.

[TJ]

Very surprised by the result, I really thought Wales would have taken the bull by the horns and dominated this, but they came off second best in all areas bar the breakdown.

Hard to put my finger on where it went wrong, but not much happening outside Biggar where the centres and wings did little to impress.

For England I thought Cole was strong, as were Kruis and Haskell who both had excellent games. Surprised by Ford as MOTM to be honest, Joseph and Watson were both excellent outside him and Brown had some excellent touches as well.

Thoroughly deserved win for England.

Englands defence cutting down the space? Very little possession in the England half so by Gatland ball rules Wales had to kick everything away - and England ran it back not kicked it back?

[TJ]

So a poster posted a blatant wum thread last night and is still commenting on this article. All complaints on this article seem to have been blatantly ignored. Can we assume the pre-tournament warnings set out by the mod team are no longer applicable? Or as usual are you allowed to do so as long as it is directed at Wales?

to be fair the thread has been removed has it not? for the record I complained about it too (assume others did), just seemed completely unnecessary. I'm an England/France fan, but let's try to stay generous in victory shall we? no need for silly little digs/wind-ups which serve no purpose other than to annoy the opposite fans.

Guys - why answer this guy? his one eyed rants are best ignored. Mods on here do a good job by and large if a little generous to guys who rant all the time. the Saints constant allegations of "anti welsh" get right on my nerves so I have him blocked. Its the best way

[The Saint]

So a poster posted a blatant wum thread last night and is still commenting on this article. All complaints on this article seem to have been blatantly ignored. Can we assume the pre-tournament warnings set out by the mod team are no longer applicable? Or as usual are you allowed to do so as long as it is directed at Wales?

to be fair the thread has been removed has it not? for the record I complained about it too (assume others did), just seemed completely unnecessary. I'm an England/France fan, but let's try to stay generous in victory shall we? no need for silly little digs/wind-ups which serve no purpose other than to annoy the opposite fans.

If you see the sticky posted by the mod team, it seems to indicate that there is a zero tolerance policy. Go read it for yourself. Had Wales won I have no doubt there would be a zero tolerance policy. You're exactly right, hence why I'm confused about the mods not enforcing the rules they stated at the beginning .

[The Saint]

Enjoy the rest of the rugby action this weekend Saint.

Don't let it get to you.

Don't think I have opportunity to watch the games later, but I'll try and catch up. Thanks. Again, good win and great start to the tournament by England.

[Steve_rugby]

Garces, the one you were constsntly whinging about.

Going by the laws the try was rightfully disallowed. So england were never 12 points better. I can't see how this would need explaining to you?

I thought there may have been a Welsh player with the name of Garcia, when he actually meant the ref who is called Garces.

Wales only try should have been disallowed as Faletau played the ball whilst it was still in the scrum

20.9 Scrum - general restrictions

(b)
All players: Handling in the scrum. Players must not handle the ball in the scrum or pick it up with their legs.

Sanction: Penalty kick

So therefore 12 points better.

[The Saint]

Garces, the one you were constsntly whinging about.

Going by the laws the try was rightfully disallowed. So england were never 12 points better. I can't see how this would need explaining to you?

I thought there may have been a Welsh player with the name of Garcia, when he actually meant the ref who is called Garces.

Wales only try should have been disallowed as Faletau played the ball whilst it was still in the scrum

20.9 Scrum - general restrictions

(b)
All players: Handling in the scrum. Players must not handle the ball in the scrum or pick it up with their legs.

Sanction: Penalty kick

So therefore 12 points better.

No he didn't. Are you making up these allegations as you go along? This is reminiscent of your behaviour during last nights match.

The game ended with a deserved 5 point win to England which you can't seem to accept. So it seems they were 5 points better unless I'm missing something.

[TightHEAD]

I thought Easter pulled out and Biggar just tackled him, try should have stood IMO seeing as no yardage was gain as the player was tacked on the gain line.

[SecretFly]

Does drink do a lot of the after-game talking during 6N, I'm wondering?
It seems more than any other occasion, bar probably the Lions, the 6N is a time to really let the hair down and the drinks flow - you hear people moan about kick off times and days chosen for playing, and basing their complaints around having enough pre-drink time and after-drinks time and not having to go to work the next day with a massive hangover.

Maybe that's why these threads are so bloody ratty, peevish and bitter when 6N time hits - maybe it ain't the natural Nationalistic passions at all and just a bunch of drunk skunks feeling the need to do what many drunk skunks like to do - get their head in, get aggro, make a nuisance of themselves and moon

Maybe 606 should make the joint a No Alcohol Zone for the duration.  Breathalyse anyone who want to contribute.

[Steve_rugby]

I suggest you watch it again, he's bound to the scrum and reaches in to take the ball from behind the hookers legs whilst he's on one knee. Even Eddie "one eyed" Butler said it was handling in the scum.

[TightHEAD]

I suggest you watch it again, he's bound to the scrum and reaches in to take the ball from behind the hookers legs whilst he's on one knee. Even Eddie "one eyed" Butler said it was handling in the scum.

Where was the TMO on that one, making a cup of tea?

[Nachos Jones]

I suggest you watch it again, he's bound to the scrum and reaches in to take the ball from behind the hookers legs whilst he's on one knee. Even Eddie "one eyed" Butler said it was handling in the scum.

Where was the TMO on that one, making a cup of tea?

Probably at the same place when he missed Attwood accidently kicking North in the head

[The Saint]

I suggest you watch it again, he's bound to the scrum and reaches in to take the ball from behind the hookers legs whilst he's on one knee. Even Eddie "one eyed" Butler said it was handling in the scum.

I suggest you stop making stuff up as you go along as it's really embarrassing for you. Firstly England were 12 points better because of a disallowed try which was the correct decision; when you realise that you come out with this BS. Just give it a rest.

[Heaf]

I fear referees will determine the outcome of RWC 2015.

I fear you could be right - also putting TMOs into that equation.

So much is down to interpretation that even when watching replays often people can't agree on certain decisions - the obstruction/no obstruction last night being a case in point.

I'd also for my own interest like to understand the current guidelines on the use of the TMO e.g. some questioned how many phases they can go back - is there a fixed number? and can or can't they intervene without being called on by the ref - I thought they could for foul play but nothing else? Does anyone actually know the answers to these questions? We all want consistency from the refs and I think we need the same around how the TMO is used.

[TightHEAD]

I suggest you watch it again, he's bound to the scrum and reaches in to take the ball from behind the hookers legs whilst he's on one knee. Even Eddie "one eyed" Butler said it was handling in the scum.

Where was the TMO on that one, making a cup of tea?

Probably at the same place when he missed Attwood accidently kicking North in the head

Are you suggesting that Attwood made North dive at his feet just as he tried to kick a loose ball?

That was nothing more than brave play from North and you know it.

[HammerofThunor]

Moore said it was 2 phases. Not sure if that's right or not.

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