Respecting the opposition and the referee

Firstly this is the result of the game yesterday but not solely about it not is it about the referee's performance as it was a disgrace but rather the conduct of the players on the pitch, there were three issues that stick out for me; Hogg yelling at the linesman after being, admittedly illegally, taken out after a kick, secondly Warburton asking for a red after the incident involving Russell and lastly Liam Williams football esque celebration after scoring the "try".

This is not anti Welsh at all just I am obviously biased and therefore more likely to overlook similar scottish indiscretions but I'm sure they happen. Is this the way the game is going or should it be stamped out?

Williams celebration was really embarassing. It was really footballesque. Made him look like a massive tool.

One of the funniest moments of the game was one of the Scots tackling the wrong guy as Wales went in for a try.

The way that the game is going, regrettably, 123. !'ve noticed it from all teams at various points and would like to see the football-style nonsense stamped right out.

I mentioned on another thread that once upon a time, moons ago, only the captain was supposed to talk to the ref or other officials. If anyone else was minded to give his twopence worth, he would invariably be penalised, or if after a penalty, marched back 10 metres until he learned to shut up and play. Would like to see that sanction applied a little more consistently now - we'd all be amazed at how quickly the rubbish would stop.

Webb was the worst. Falling over the player at the ruck, falling over for Hoggs try.

GunsGerms wrote:Williams celebration was really embarassing. It was really footballesque. Made him look like a massive tool.

One of the funniest moments of the game was one of the Scots tackling the wrong guy as Wales went in for a try.

I think Bennett was trying to claim some sort of obstruction, which as you say was ridiculous.

Agreed on Williams' celebration. Fine player, utter plonker.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Williams celebration was really embarassing. It was really footballesque. Made him look like a massive tool.

One of the funniest moments of the game was one of the Scots tackling the wrong guy as Wales went in for a try.

I think Bennett was trying to claim some sort of obstruction, which as you say was ridiculous.

Agreed on Williams' celebration. Fine player, utter plonker.

Really? I missed that. I assumed he thought the guy he tackled had the ball.

JD was in front of the runner so it would have been interesting had they gone to the TMO. Strictly speaking it was obstruction.

123456789 wrote:This is not anti Welsh at all

It is though, isn't it ? I have tried to refrain from posting on here during the 6N but I feel I need to add to this, the ref was crap, but he was crap for both sides, Wales just played the ref better than Scotland. The amount of stick the ref is getting on here since yesterdays game is ridiculous, yes the ref was rubbish, but the way people are going on here it is as though he was totally biased towards Wales, I am fed up of seeing people on here going on about a referee, and feeling that they have a point, but when any Welsh people on here complain about referees we are being stereotypical Welsh winger's again, threads like this, and the myriad of other posts on here bemoaning the ref proves that it is not only us Welsh that moan about referees.

No 7&1/2 wrote:JD was in front of the runner so it would have been interesting had they gone to the TMO. Strictly speaking it was obstruction.

No it was not, you see, the thing is in rugby, you might have heard of them, they are called rules, and the rules state that you do not have to get out of the way. It was not as if JD deliberately moved in front of his tackler, he just kept running in support of the ball carrier, but hey ho, why should I get in the way if you having another moan about Wales ?

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:JD was in front of the runner so it would have been interesting had they gone to the TMO. Strictly speaking it was obstruction.

No it was not, you see, the thing is in rugby, you might have heard of them, they are called rules, and the rules state that you do not have to get out of the way. It was not as if JD deliberately moved in front of his tackler, he just kept running in support of the ball carrier, but hey ho, why should I get in the way if you having another moan about Wales ?

He wasn't behind the runner so he wasn't supporting. A foot back and it was the perfect line, as it was it was tecnically illegal.

I thought he was just running a supporting line, and if that is the case he does.t need to get out of the way. Will watch it again.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:JD was in front of the runner so it would have been interesting had they gone to the TMO. Strictly speaking it was obstruction.

No it was not, you see, the thing is in rugby, you might have heard of them, they are called rules, and the rules state that you do not have to get out of the way. It was not as if JD deliberately moved in front of his tackler, he just kept running in support of the ball carrier, but hey ho, why should I get in the way if you having another moan about Wales ?

He wasn't behind the runner so he wasn't supporting. A foot back and it was the perfect line, as it was it was tecnically illegal.

How can it be technically illegal if all he was doing was running ? Was looking for the oposition, to deliberately obstruct them ? No. He was just running in his line, without checking or moving into the line of a tackle, the Scottish player decided to tackle him on purpose to make out it was obstruction, , that is why the try was given.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:JD was in front of the runner so it would have been interesting had they gone to the TMO. Strictly speaking it was obstruction.

No it was not, you see, the thing is in rugby, you might have heard of them, they are called rules, and the rules state that you do not have to get out of the way. It was not as if JD deliberately moved in front of his tackler, he just kept running in support of the ball carrier, but hey ho, why should I get in the way if you having another moan about Wales ?

Agreed, although perhaps you could adjust your tone in making the point.

Absolutely no way JD2 should have moved. Had he adjusted his line to get in the way I'd feel differently, but he didn't. Fact is Bennett was never getting there to make the tackle.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:JD was in front of the runner so it would have been interesting had they gone to the TMO. Strictly speaking it was obstruction.

No it was not, you see, the thing is in rugby, you might have heard of them, they are called rules, and the rules state that you do not have to get out of the way. It was not as if JD deliberately moved in front of his tackler, he just kept running in support of the ball carrier, but hey ho, why should I get in the way if you having another moan about Wales ?

He wasn't behind the runner so he wasn't supporting. A foot back and it was the perfect line, as it was it was tecnically illegal.

How can it be technically illegal if all he was doing was running ? Was looking for the oposition, to deliberately obstruct them ? No. He was just running in his line, without checking or moving into the line of a tackle, the Scottish player decided to tackle him on purpose to make out it was obstruction, , that is why the try was given.

Good thing it wasn't a couple of phases earlier.

LordDowlais wrote:

123456789 wrote:This is not anti Welsh at all

It is though, isn't it ? I have tried to refrain from posting on here during the 6N but I feel I need to add to this, the ref was crap, but he was crap for both sides, Wales just played the ref better than Scotland. The amount of stick the ref is getting on here since yesterdays game is ridiculous, yes the ref was rubbish, but the way people are going on here it is as though he was totally biased towards Wales, I am fed up of seeing people on here going on about a referee, and feeling that they have a point, but when any Welsh people on here complain about referees we are being stereotypical Welsh winger's again, threads like this, and the myriad of other posts on here bemoaning the ref proves that it is not only us Welsh that moan about referees.

There was one occasion near the end of the game, Jackson gave a penalty against Scotland for not releasing yet Charteris was clearly laying on the man and ball it was a strange one but the standard seems to be down this year as Barnes was poor on Saturday too in Dublin(though I've never seen him have a good game with an Irish team involved)

No 7&1/2 wrote:Webb was the worst. Falling over the player at the ruck, falling over for Hoggs try.

Or maybe Grays pass to Hogg being forward, hence they should have been called back for a Welsh scrum, rather than Hogg scoring a try.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:JD was in front of the runner so it would have been interesting had they gone to the TMO. Strictly speaking it was obstruction.

No it was not, you see, the thing is in rugby, you might have heard of them, they are called rules, and the rules state that you do not have to get out of the way. It was not as if JD deliberately moved in front of his tackler, he just kept running in support of the ball carrier, but hey ho, why should I get in the way if you having another moan about Wales ?

He wasn't behind the runner so he wasn't supporting. A foot back and it was the perfect line, as it was it was tecnically illegal.

How can it be technically illegal if all he was doing was running ? Was looking for the oposition, to deliberately obstruct them ? No. He was just running in his line, without checking or moving into the line of a tackle, the Scottish player decided to tackle him on purpose to make out it was obstruction, , that is why the try was given.

Because he was in front of the man with the ball. He wasn't running a support line, he was running a blocking line. As pointed out the Davies. The try was given as the ref didn't see it, hence if it had gone upstairs it would have been interesting.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:JD was in front of the runner so it would have been interesting had they gone to the TMO. Strictly speaking it was obstruction.

No it was not, you see, the thing is in rugby, you might have heard of them, they are called rules, and the rules state that you do not have to get out of the way. It was not as if JD deliberately moved in front of his tackler, he just kept running in support of the ball carrier, but hey ho, why should I get in the way if you having another moan about Wales ?

If you are going to pick people up perhaps you should be correct?

They are LAWS not rules.

marty, the ref did not have a clue at the breakdown, countless times Welsh forwards had their hands on the ball legitimately only for Scotland to keep hold of it without punishment, Wales knew the ref lost control of the breakdown so they just pushed their luck, I am also hearing how Wales were penalised three times in their own 22 during the last five minutes and should have been carded, which is right, but I am not hearing about the five or six time the Scotts were punished for it in the first half either.

Ps 7.5 we discussed this and decided as a group of ex refs that it was not obstruction as the defender was running back. If he had been in front and blocked from making the tackle then it would be obstruction as JD2 was in front of the ball carrier. However the Scot was not.

LondonTiger wrote:They are LAWS not rules.

The same applies, what ever you want to call them.

LondonTiger wrote:Ps 7.5 we discussed this and decided as a group of ex refs that it was not obstruction as the defender was running back. If he had been in front and blocked from making the tackle then it would be obstruction as JD2 was in front of the ball carrier. However the Scot was not.

Exactly, how can he be obstucting if he was tackled from behind. What is the difference for what we saw in that incident, to what we see in every game where a kick is put into the air, and players just stand their ground to stop the opposition from re-catching the ball ?

I'd disagree LT as JD was blocking the defender getting across, if he was behind in a support line it would have been fine. As it was he was in front and the defender knew it hence making the tackle to make it more obvious or force a TMO.

Probably right with the forward pass No 9. they're still generally ignored, watch the game back, or any game, and there's countless.

LordDowlais wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Ps 7.5 we discussed this and decided as a group of ex refs that it was not obstruction as the defender was running back. If he had been in front and blocked from making the tackle then it would be obstruction as JD2 was in front of the ball carrier. However the Scot was not.

Exactly, how can he be obrtucting if he was tackled from behind.

Because he was running a blocking lien which would have been fine if he were behind but he wasn't. Don't know how else to explain it to you.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Ps 7.5 we discussed this and decided as a group of ex refs that it was not obstruction as the defender was running back. If he had been in front and blocked from making the tackle then it would be obstruction as JD2 was in front of the ball carrier. However the Scot was not.

Exactly, how can he be obrtucting if he was tackled from behind.

Because he was running a blocking lien which would have been fine if he were behind but he wasn't. Don't know how else to explain it to you.

Explain this to me then, when a players kicks the ball in the air for an up and under, should everybody be made to get out of his way to re-catch the ball ? We see this in every game, when you are standing in a position, you do not have to get out of the way, you cannot check your stance either and put yourself in the way, but you are allowed to stand your ground, what is the difference ?

More importantly... Why was Liam Williams try disallowed for obstruction. I've looked at this over and over again.. The Scots could have made a tackle, there wasn't any obstruction and the Scottish winger does get hands on Liam before he dives for the try.

We have Laidlaw standing behind Jake Ball and AWJ who broke and moved forward, but they wasn't obstructing any tackles. Its just the Scots stood there hands aloft, looking for the penalty and not making any attempt to tackle.. Play like this is seen week in week out, and doesn't get pulled back.

I personally think the try was good...

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Ps 7.5 we discussed this and decided as a group of ex refs that it was not obstruction as the defender was running back. If he had been in front and blocked from making the tackle then it would be obstruction as JD2 was in front of the ball carrier. However the Scot was not.

Exactly, how can he be obrtucting if he was tackled from behind.

Because he was running a blocking lien which would have been fine if he were behind but he wasn't. Don't know how else to explain it to you.

Explain this to me then, when a players kicks the ball in the air for an up and under, should everybody be made to get out of his way to re-catch the ball ? We see this in every game, when you are standing in a position, you do not have to get out of the way, you cannot check your stance either and put yourself in the way, but you are allowed to stand your ground, what is the difference ?

No you don't have to get out of the way but if you run a support line for the guy with the ball you need to be behind him. LT is saying that because the defender was coming from behind it didn't impact I think that JD being there, slightly ahead of play, was still blocking off the defender. Good line but excution was a touch off.

So what you are saying is JD2 is in FRONT of Rhys Webb and the tackler is coming from BEHIND, but somehow that is a blocking line ? Surely if JD2 had wanted to perform a block he would have looked around (he didn't do so at all) and dropped off the pace to be slightly behind Rhys Webb. He is running a straight, supporting line, he does not deviate from the line and does not look around to check where he can position himself to block - he is not doing anything illegal, he's just over run slightly and very marginally at that

LordDowlais wrote:marty, the ref did not have a clue at the breakdown, countless times Welsh forwards had their hands on the ball legitimately only for Scotland to keep hold of it without punishment, Wales knew the ref lost control of the breakdown so they just pushed their luck, I am also hearing how Wales were penalised three times in their own 22 during the last five minutes and should have been carded, which is right, but I am not hearing about the five or six time the Scotts were punished for it in the first half either.

I agree but I picked that out because it was so blatantly wrong, I think the whole BBC commentary team basically said at the end the ref spoiled it all by not reffing the breakdown better from the beginning.

PenfroPete wrote:So what you are saying is JD2 is in FRONT of Rhys Webb and the tackler is coming from BEHIND, but somehow that is a blocking line ? Surely if JD2 had wanted to perform a block he would have looked around (he didn't do so at all) and dropped off the pace to be slightly behind Rhys Webb. He is running a straight, supporting line, he does not deviate from the line and does not look around to check where he can position himself to block - he is not doing anything illegal, he's just over run slightly and very marginally at that

He should have dropped off his pace yes and it would have been fine, it's a foul. Anyway this is all slightly off the main topic.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Ps 7.5 we discussed this and decided as a group of ex refs that it was not obstruction as the defender was running back. If he had been in front and blocked from making the tackle then it would be obstruction as JD2 was in front of the ball carrier. However the Scot was not.

Exactly, how can he be obrtucting if he was tackled from behind.

Because he was running a blocking lien which would have been fine if he were behind but he wasn't. Don't know how else to explain it to you.

Explain this to me then, when a players kicks the ball in the air for an up and under, should everybody be made to get out of his way to re-catch the ball ? We see this in every game, when you are standing in a position, you do not have to get out of the way, you cannot check your stance either and put yourself in the way, but you are allowed to stand your ground, what is the difference ?

No you don't have to get out of the way but if you run a support line for the guy with the ball you need to be behind him. LT is saying that because the defender was coming from behind it didn't impact I think that JD being there, slightly ahead of play, was still blocking off the defender. Good line but excution was a touch off.

But can you answer the question ? What is the difference ?

Actually, forgot what this thread was about, as we are honing in on specific points...

Going back to the OP...

I think the standard of refereeing wasn't good, but I don't think he favored one side more than the other. He made a series of errors, but the way errors "played out" where even to both sides.

As for Liam's celebration.. I don't like to see this in rugby, but its no worse than Ashton and his swallow dives or the "head banging" Gareth Thomas used to do, which I think was completely insulting to the Muslim (specifically Iran/Iraq) community, who used this during mourning. Picked up by Cardiff City fans and turned into a celebration. "The Ayatollah". Complete insult and Gareth Thomas should have been picked up for this by the Welsh management years ago.. We don't see this now, and I do hope that we don't see it again.

No9 wrote:More importantly... Why was Liam Williams try disallowed for obstruction. I've looked at this over and over again.. The Scots could have made a tackle, there wasn't any obstruction and the Scottish winger does get hands on Liam before he dives for the try.

We have Laidlaw standing behind Jake Ball and AWJ who broke and moved forward, but they wasn't obstructing any tackles. Its just the Scots stood there hands aloft, looking for the penalty and not making any attempt to tackle.. Play like this is seen week in week out, and doesn't get pulled back.

I personally think the try was good...

You'd be wrong then. If you break away from a maul without the ball and commit tacklers in front of the ball, which was the case here, then it is a penalty. Even Jiffy agreed that the try was bad. You can't start a "but for" type of analysis because we won't know whether Rob Harley would have made the tackle or whether the other defenders would have fanned out as a result of Harley not being committed thus cutting out the space. The reason we don't know is because of the infringement. AWJ/Ball should have stayed bound or taken the ball with them. Pretty daft breaking away like that, and AWJ can hardly chalk it down to a lack of experience.

Personally I'd have disallowed the try for the inane chavvy celebration that followed it.

If anybody wants to see an incident where players do not respect the referee, then you should have a look at how Muldoon behaved towards Mitrea yesterday, disgusting.

captain carrantuohil wrote:The way that the game is going, regrettably, 123. !'ve noticed it from all teams at various points and would like to see the football-style nonsense stamped right out.

I mentioned on another thread that once upon a time, moons ago, only the captain was supposed to talk to the ref or other officials. If anyone else was minded to give his twopence worth, he would invariably be penalised, or if after a penalty, marched back 10 metres until he learned to shut up and play. Would like to see that sanction applied a little more consistently now - we'd all be amazed at how quickly the rubbish would stop.

THIS X 1000

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Ps 7.5 we discussed this and decided as a group of ex refs that it was not obstruction as the defender was running back. If he had been in front and blocked from making the tackle then it would be obstruction as JD2 was in front of the ball carrier. However the Scot was not.

Exactly, how can he be obrtucting if he was tackled from behind.

Because he was running a blocking lien which would have been fine if he were behind but he wasn't. Don't know how else to explain it to you.

Explain this to me then, when a players kicks the ball in the air for an up and under, should everybody be made to get out of his way to re-catch the ball ? We see this in every game, when you are standing in a position, you do not have to get out of the way, you cannot check your stance either and put yourself in the way, but you are allowed to stand your ground, what is the difference ?

No you don't have to get out of the way but if you run a support line for the guy with the ball you need to be behind him. LT is saying that because the defender was coming from behind it didn't impact I think that JD being there, slightly ahead of play, was still blocking off the defender. Good line but excution was a touch off.

But can you answer the question ? What is the difference ?

One is done with someone in possession of the ball. Plus JD was running deliberately to block the defender. That would be fine if he was behind he wasn't though.

I didn't even notice the potential offside element of Webb's try at the time but now I look at it it might have been. Bennett wasn't actually coming from behind. He was Scotland-side of the ball as he tracked back and Davies was in the way preventing him from making the tackle.



On the kick-ahead point. You aren't allowed to advance up the pitch until you're played onside, and if you're offside and standing near where the ball will land you have to retreat to 10m away as I understand it. The point here is that Davies was ahead of the ball but still advancing up the pitch and obstructing a defender.

thomh wrote:I didn't even notice the potential offside element of Webb's try at the time but now I look at it it might have been. Bennett wasn't actually coming from behind. He was Scotland-side of the ball as he tracked back and Davies was in the way preventing him from making the tackle.



On the kick-ahead point. You aren't allowed to advance up the pitch until you're played onside, and if you're offside and standing near where the ball will land you have to retreat to 10m away as I understand it. The point here is that Davies was ahead of the ball but still advancing up the pitch and obstructing a defender.

I have to say from that screenshot it does look like obstruction

No9 wrote:More importantly... Why was Liam Williams try disallowed for obstruction. I've looked at this over and over again.. The Scots could have made a tackle, there wasn't any obstruction and the Scottish winger does get hands on Liam before he dives for the try.

We have Laidlaw standing behind Jake Ball and AWJ who broke and moved forward, but they wasn't obstructing any tackles. Its just the Scots stood there hands aloft, looking for the penalty and not making any attempt to tackle.. Play like this is seen week in week out, and doesn't get pulled back.

I personally think the try was good...

u looked at the video. ??

harley was taken out by 2 welsh players who were illegally driving WITHOUT the ball. 100pc illegal .

LordDowlais wrote:

123456789 wrote:This is not anti Welsh at all

It is though, isn't it ? I have tried to refrain from posting on here during the 6N but I feel I need to add to this, the ref was crap, but he was crap for both sides, Wales just played the ref better than Scotland. The amount of stick the ref is getting on here since yesterdays game is ridiculous, yes the ref was rubbish, but the way people are going on here it is as though he was totally biased towards Wales, I am fed up of seeing people on here going on about a referee, and feeling that they have a point, but when any Welsh people on here complain about referees we are being stereotypical Welsh winger's again, threads like this, and the myriad of other posts on here bemoaning the ref proves that it is not only us Welsh that moan about referees.

I didn't want to be dragged into this but we got the brunt of the poor decisions, read any article or talk to any neutral an they'll say the same. The welsh guy sat next to me agreed with me every time I lost my temper with the referee. Also can you please agree with how us being aggrieved about the referee is anti-Welsh?

There was a lot of shouting at the ref/linesmen and generally people being gobby Poopie.

Im tired of seeing the JD2/obstruction incident, all I'll say is this, it wasnt looked at twice because it wasnt even close to being obstruction/illegal.

The biggest mess was the breakdown which became a free for all by the end. I think this is where Jackson really lost control of the game.

I just watched the game again and I think that by the look of Jackson he was overawed by the occasion and perhaps wanted it over ASAP, more often than not he avoided took the easy option or even avoided difficult decisions altogether

The ref yesterday was equally crap for both teams.

If you say so but can you please explain precisely what I've said or anyone Scottish has said that is anti-Welsh?

I was watching the game with one eye. There is one interpretation that irks the hell out of me.

PLayers being blown for holding on when the tackler is not supporting his body weight.

I have seen this is endemic in the NH where a player doesn't actually try to go for the ball, but rather just position himself in a manner to fool the referee he is trying to get the ball, whilst there is no way in hell he will actually be able to get up into a standing position if he did collect the ball.

Like I said, if you want to see football style disrespect for the referee, take a look at Muldoon's behaviour yesterday in the Scarlets V Connacht game.

Biltong wrote:I was watching the game with one eye. There is one interpretation that irks the hell out of me.

PLayers being blown for holding on when the tackler is not supporting his body weight.

I have seen this is endemic in the NH where a player doesn't actually try to go for the ball, but rather just position himself in a manner to fool the referee he is trying to get the ball, whilst there is no way in hell he will actually be able to get up into a standing position if he did collect the ball.

The arse in the air ploy? Yeah, it's a doodle

LordDowlais wrote:Like I said, if you want to see football style disrespect for the referee, take a look at Muldoon's behaviour yesterday in the Scarlets V Connacht game.

You're building up the tension, Lord. Don't hold us all in suspense!

What DID that bad lad Muldoon do? Piddle on the ref's boots?

123456789 wrote:This is not anti Welsh at all just I am obviously biased and therefore more likely to overlook similar scottish indiscretions but I'm sure they happen

The fact you needed to type that implies you are, even if you are not intending to. Look it does not bother me, but lets just be honest about it. The amount of grizzling about the ref I have seen on here today is just beggars belief. I just find it funny that when us Welsh moan about a ref, we get called typical Welsh moaners, but everybody else seems to have a free ride when it comes to grizzling about referees, he was just as crap for Wales yesterday as he was crap for Scotland, I am just going to leave it at that. But back on topic, take a look at how the Connacht captain behaved yesterday.

I posted that as there were more Welsh examples I gave than Scotih although I am not stupid enough to believe that I am completely unbiased.


It just seems that the so called "dark arts" have taken a turn for the worse,it now seems cowardly and backhand furthermore it is now called playing the referee, call me old fashioned but I feel referees should be to a good standard universally, those on the pitch should follow the rules and respect the referee and that those off of it should able to voice their opinions without being accused of xenophobia.