Respecting the opposition and the referee

First topic message reminder :

Firstly this is the result of the game yesterday but not solely about it not is it about the referee's performance as it was a disgrace but rather the conduct of the players on the pitch, there were three issues that stick out for me; Hogg yelling at the linesman after being, admittedly illegally, taken out after a kick, secondly Warburton asking for a red after the incident involving Russell and lastly Liam Williams football esque celebration after scoring the "try".

This is not anti Welsh at all just I am obviously biased and therefore more likely to overlook similar scottish indiscretions but I'm sure they happen. Is this the way the game is going or should it be stamped out?

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Like I said, if you want to see football style disrespect for the referee, take a look at Muldoon's behaviour yesterday in the Scarlets V Connacht game.

You're building up the tension, Lord.  Don't hold us all in suspense!

What DID that bad lad Muldoon do?  Piddle on the ref's boots?

Well basically John Barclay was slowing the ball down, he was in all fairness, but Muldoon then went on to stamp on his arm repeatedly and ruck is studs down his for arm for good measure, a result that could have easily broke John Barclay's arm, when the incident was then put to the TMO the evidence was as clear as day, but Muldoon just went on a rant at the ref to tell him he was not doing his job properly and if he was not going to ref the game properly, he would do it for him by taking the law into his own hands, and it was not so much what he said, although it was bad, it was how he said it, and the tone he said it in as well.

After being yellow carded for stamping at the ruck, Muldoon responded to the ref -

""Sir, every time we get in, they're cynical. penalty over there, penalty here and if you don't referee it, that's why we take it into our own hands. You're not refereeing it." His tone was agressive, insolent and argumentative and Marius Mitrea what not have been out of line upgrading it to a red

123456789 wrote:I posted that as there were more Welsh examples I gave than Scotih although I am not stupid enough to believe that I am completely unbiased.


It just seems that the so called "dark arts" have taken a turn for the worse,it now seems cowardly and backhand furthermore it is now called playing the referee, call me old fashioned but I feel referees should be to a good standard universally, those on the pitch should follow the rules and respect the referee and that those off of it should able to voice their opinions without being accused of xenophobia.

Oh no, here we go, I am accusing you of xenaphobia now am I ? For God sake, please stop being so precious, what is it with people. I agree, players should respect the ref and they should be a good standard universally, but the fact you admitted you were being biased in the first place does make it SOUND anti Welsh, look, I do not care, us Welsh are constantly being accused of as Welsh moaners, everybody else though are allowed to say what they like about the referee, and if they are called moaners then they are up in arms.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Like I said, if you want to see football style disrespect for the referee, take a look at Muldoon's behaviour yesterday in the Scarlets V Connacht game.

You're building up the tension, Lord.  Don't hold us all in suspense!

What DID that bad lad Muldoon do?  Piddle on the ref's boots?

Well basically John Barclay was slowing the ball down, he was in all fairness, but Muldoon then went on to stamp on his arm repeatedly and ruck is studs down his for arm for good measure, a result that could have easily broke John Barclay's arm, when the incident was then put to the TMO the evidence was as clear as day, but Muldoon just went on a rant at the ref to tell him he was not doing his job properly and if he was not going to ref the game properly, he would do it for him by taking the law into his own hands, and it was not so much what he said, although it was bad, it was how he said it, and the tone he said it in as well.

I know I should be more informed about this but other things and International has taken my eye off Pro12. What happened Muldoon? Yellow? Red? Surely the ref didn't allow a player to talk to him like that? I'd have to see it myself but it seems you heard the argument full on, did the ref punish Muldoon?

SecretFly wrote:I know I should be more informed about this but other things and International has taken my eye off Pro12. What happened Muldoon? Yellow? Red? Surely the ref didn't allow a player to talk to him like that? I'd have to see it myself but it seems you heard the argument full on, did the ref punish Muldoon?

Well, he basically told him, that the evidence was on the screen for all to see and he could not deny it, and he then showed him a yellow card, and he did not take that well either, I am sure somebody who is better at computer and internet stuff than me, some one like Penfro could post a link to what happened, but in my eyes if Marius Mitrea had sent him off with a red instead of a yellow, there would be no arguments. The sheer arrogance in the way he spoke to the ref looked as though he was trying to intimidate him.

Also, just to add, what Muldoon did, could have broke John Barlays arm.

Well, I certainly wouldn't defend any of that schyt. Sounds pretty bad.

FLY / DOWLAIS - Can look at what I think is a link (S4C) but can't open it (in the office ) Will post later, when I get home

PenfroPete wrote:FLY / DOWLAIS - Can look at what I think is a link (S4C) but can't open it (in the office ) Will post later, when I get home

Cheers, you are the brains of this outfit afterall.

123456789 wrote:Firstly this is the result of the game yesterday but not solely about it not is it about the referee's performance as it was a disgrace but rather the conduct of the players on the pitch, there were three issues that stick out for me; Hogg yelling at the linesman after being, admittedly illegally, taken out after a kick, secondly Warburton asking for a red after the incident involving Russell and lastly Liam Williams football esque celebration after scoring the "try".

This is not anti Welsh at all just I am obviously biased and therefore more likely to overlook similar scottish indiscretions but I'm sure they happen. Is this the way the game is going or should it be stamped out?

Not wanting to sound like the smartypants here, but I said all this would happen back in 1995 when the game went professional.   As soon as money and corporate interests became involved, the stakes in games became raised and the importance of winning matches, especially in televised matches that go out to millions of subscription-payers who fund players wages, increased.

I said at the time that it would take thirty years to get to this stage but I was wrong.  It has taken only twenty.

Rugby is going the way of football.  There is nobody left from the amateur days now and the game is solidly, 100% professional.  

Respect for referees is still, generally, higher in rugby than it is in football, but the gap is lessening by the season.    There will soon be little or no difference at all.   Players are becoming whiners and the utterly.... utterly..... disgraceful behaviour in trying to persuade a referee to remove a player from the field is totally reprehensible in my opinion.   But with the stakes in the game being raised higher and higher every season, I can only see this situation worsening.

The reason Glenn Jackson didn't march players back ten yards when they got at him is because he is of the generation of referees who have recently been players.   He indulged in that sort of behaviour as a player and he sees nothing wrong in it as a referee.  Clive Norling or Derek  Bevan would never have stood for it, but they were old school and could look lippy players in the eye and penalise them ten, and if they carried on doing it, they'd march them back another ten.   Sooner or later that players captain would get hold of chummy and tell him to shut it.

Gobbing off at referees was a practice that would only ever result in one winner. Sadly, this is no longer the case and as more and more Glenn Jacksons take up the whistle at the end of their playing days, it will only get worse.

TV is the paymaster now and Rugby is selling itself out to Mammon just as football did.  The RFU, SRU, WRU and all the other Unions who become increasingly reliant on it will allow the game to go the same way.

All those who said that rugby should go professional are getting what they wished for.

Unfortunately all of this is mirrored in the behaviour of the fans too. A number of years ago you'd watch the game, perhpas have a light hearted argument/discussion or two with opposition fans, disagree with a few ref calls, but generally forget about it an hour after the game. Now we have message boards such as 606v2 where people rant for days, weeks, months, store up grudges with other posters to pull out of their hat at a convenient time in the future, micro analysis of the game where every single decision, and I mean EVERY single decision, is argued! It's gotten out of hand, for sure.

Griff wrote:Unfortunately all of this is mirrored in the behaviour of the fans too. A number of years ago you'd watch the game, perhpas have a light hearted argument/discussion or two with opposition fans, disagree with a few ref calls, but generally forget about it an hour after the game. Now we have message boards such as 606v2 where people rant for days, weeks, months, store up grudges with other posters  to pull out of their hat at a convenient time in the future, micro analysis of the game where every single decision, and I mean EVERY single decision, is argued! It's gotten out of hand, for sure.

However, that is only (in my experience) only happening online

In real life, the happy days are still there

Completely agree The Fourth Lion, and I fear you will continue to be right.

The rulemakers and the refs have it within their power to stamp this out.

Any player other than the captain speaking to an official without invitation - penalty (or 10 yards if penalty already given)
Any appeal by any player for an opposition player to be carded (including the captain) - yellow + penalty
Any dissent towards an official - red + penalty
Simulation - red, penalty + 5 match ban

Any doubt regarding simulation, consult the TV official. It is almost always painfully obvious. Simulation can be reported post-event and the ban would apply (extended by one further game to mitigate the lack of red card in the game in question).

Football should have stamped out simulation years ago, it would have transformed the game.

Riskysports wrote:

Griff wrote:Unfortunately all of this is mirrored in the behaviour of the fans too. A number of years ago you'd watch the game, perhpas have a light hearted argument/discussion or two with opposition fans, disagree with a few ref calls, but generally forget about it an hour after the game. Now we have message boards such as 606v2 where people rant for days, weeks, months, store up grudges with other posters  to pull out of their hat at a convenient time in the future, micro analysis of the game where every single decision, and I mean EVERY single decision, is argued! It's gotten out of hand, for sure.

However, that is only (in my experience) only happening online

In real life, the happy days are still there

True, I watched the game with a few Scottish fans yesterday and they were lovely!

funnyExiledScot wrote:Completely agree The Fourth Lion, and I fear you will continue to be right.

The rulemakers and the refs have it within their power to stamp this out.

Any player other than the captain speaking to an official without invitation - penalty (or 10 yards if penalty already given)
Any appeal by any player for an opposition player to be carded (including the captain) - yellow + penalty
Any dissent towards an official - red + penalty
Simulation - red, penalty + 5 match ban

Any doubt regarding simulation, consult the TV official. It is almost always painfully obvious. Simulation can be reported post-event and the ban would apply (extended by one further game to mitigate the lack of red card in the game in question).

Football should have stamped out simulation years ago, it would have transformed the game.

+1 Million

I don't know if simulation is already a card offence in rugby, but if not, that should be fixed tomorrow. Quick IRB meeting and call it the worst kind of cheating, which it is, punishable by a minimum of a yellow card + a one match ban.

Rightly or wrongly simulation bothers me far more than an over-enthusiastic tackle or a professional foul (i.e. not rolling away to slow down the ball). In fact it bothers me more than red mist where a player loses it and takes a swing.

There's something rotten and calculated in conning a ref through simulation or feigning an injury.

In football nothing annoys me more than pundits and commentators saying things like "he had a right to go down" and "it was a penalty because there was contact". Either the contact fells the attacking player or it does not. Players who "go down easily" should be withdrawn from the game.

There was an example of it in the Scotland vs Wales game. Blair Cowan gets caught on the wrong side and tries to roll away. He got caught and was slightly unlucky but I have no real issue with the penalty. Since referees have clamped down on players blocking the ball, it's been remarkable how less often players "find themselves on the wrong side". So, penalty to Wales, no problem with that. What I did take exception to was Rhys Webb's dive to bring it to the attention of the referee. That for me is completely unacceptable. Straight red and it won't survive long in the game.

For the sake of balance I also heard reports of Stuart Hogg giving the touch judges grief over an adverse decision. Again, completely unacceptable. Penalty to Wales and, if bad language is used, red card.

These traits are creeping in so that players can glean an advantage in the game. If you immediately negate that advantage and then some it'll stop.

But it's an issue that seems to come from youth coaches to be honest growing up the team I played in was told not to cheat and not to take a step back whereas we played others where they were taught to bait the other team and play the referee which is a cowpat term for cheating, referees should be good and players should do their utmost to follow them or certainly not to dupe the referee and I don't mean by that I don't mean a sneaky hand in a ruck, you run the risk there and you know it but duping the ref so the opposition is penalised or sent off needs to be stopped

PenfroPete wrote:FLY / DOWLAIS - Can look at what I think is a link (S4C) but can't open it (in the office ) Will post later, when I get home

S4C taking too long to load so good old BBC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p02j990d/clwb-rygbi-27-scarlets-v-connacht

Stamping is at 54:00 minutes into the game, 1:16:32 into the coverage. That precedes the 'conversation'

Thanks Penfro.  But I don't get iplayer where I'm at.  I'll find it somewheres and have a look at it when I can.   RTE might have something - just didn't look at it yet.

FLY - did wonder if you'd be able to access it

Never fear, just searched again and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JufRxA8DNcA

1:01:56 into the coverage (54:00 into game)

I just watched it. It's obvious he is frustrated at something, perhaps the game was niggly. On saying that there is no need to speak to the referee like that. Personally if I was the ref I would have upgraded to red.

GunsGerms wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Williams celebration was really embarassing. It was really footballesque. Made him look like a massive tool.

One of the funniest moments of the game was one of the Scots tackling the wrong guy as Wales went in for a try.

I think Bennett was trying to claim some sort of obstruction, which as you say was ridiculous.

Agreed on Williams' celebration. Fine player, utter plonker.

Really? I missed that. I assumed he thought the guy he tackled had the ball.

Yup - he couldn't get to the winger cos the blocking line was run by the man inside - but legally Ie behind the ball carrier ( just)

funnyExiledScot wrote:

There was an example of it in the Scotland vs Wales game. Blair Cowan gets caught on the wrong side and tries to roll away. He got caught and was slightly unlucky but I have no real issue with the penalty. Since referees have clamped down on players blocking the ball, it's been remarkable how less often players "find themselves on the wrong side". So, penalty to Wales, no problem with that. What I did take exception to was Rhys Webb's dive to bring it to the attention of the referee. That for me is completely unacceptable. Straight red and it won't survive long in the game..

Worse than that actually - Webb had deliberately put one leg each side of Cowan to prevent Cowan rolling away then took a dive as Cowan rolled out. Playing for penalties. I hate it. Cowan was on the wrong side yes 0- but trying to get away and Webb could have easily played the ball

cakeordeath wrote:I just watched it. It's obvious he is frustrated at something, perhaps the game was niggly. On saying that there is no need to speak to the referee like that. Personally if I was the ref I would have upgraded to red.

Just watched it as well. The ref should have upgraded it to red. But I would be surprised if he didn't because not being a native English speaker he wasn't sure about the nuances of the language he was hearing, so gave Muldoon a bit of benefit of the doubt.

Mind you, I could be completely wrong!

PenfroPete wrote:FLY - did wonder if you'd be able to access it

 Never fear, just searched again and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JufRxA8DNcA

1:01:56 into the coverage (54:00 into game)

Thanks again Penfro. Got that now. The stamping was certainly a yellow and as for the mouthing afterwards.... the time for trying to 'advise' a ref about infringements is before you get a card - nicely and courteously of course - but before the card not after it. So another yellow card for Muldoon for bad Captaincy protocols.

Just on the rows that occur here (and on most if not all forums) compared with the better behaviour of people in real life - it's a known phenomenon. If I've remembered right it's the personal anonymity which is the reason. I'd be curious to know whether if we could all see the people we were talking to via camera of some sort behaviour would be better, or whether it has to be flesh and blood.

Bit naïve of me I know, but I was surprised and depressed by the number of people who enjoy causing grief and upset via their online actions - trolls - but I suppose it explains why so many ventures get twisted and perverted in real life, where the same trolls operate but of course need to keep their actions hidden.

Humans will be animals whenever they think society ain't watching, Cowshot.  
And they'll be animal when they need a stress relieving break from being 'human'.
Because, in essence, being human is an act.
We've learned over the millennia how to be human to allow ourselves to survive in societies where many individual tribes have to cohabitate in close proximity or go to war.  Being human is a self-centred survival instinct that we 'intelligent' animals have perfected out of necessity.

So it's kinda natural that the net frees up people to be closer to who they really are OR want to be (which is equally as dangerous).  No real name, no identifying image, no background checks, no need to be nice to avoid a punch in the face or the loss of a job.

So it's simple.  It's very much nature.  We can't escape it.  We are what we are because of evolutionary impulses and I don't worry about it really because I know what happens on the net is much more really us than what happens on real streets.  And I'm happy about that - because its better to have the real us here than out there

BUT, I don't see all this rancid vicious mood in recent weeks/months on 606 that presumably some of you are encountering every few minutes.  I just can't seem to see it - BBC 606 was infinitely more volatile than this version..

Was Williams' celebration any worse than Hoggs?

Simulation is a real issue.
I wouldn't like to do it by replay during the game but if the ref spots something he can give a penalty but I would like it policed - best by ridicule I think, dive of the week award on telly. Retrospective yellow cards.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Was Williams' celebration any worse than Hoggs?

I personally didn't think it was all that different.

Risca Rev wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Was Williams' celebration any worse than Hoggs?

I personally didn't think it was all that different.

Yeah, but it's Liam Williams isn't it ? We know how people like to think of him on here, in-fact all the grizzling about the ref I am reading on here after Sundays game, you would think Wales had every decision go they're way.

Chill out LD just because some of us like to pick apart some decisions doesn't mean we think every decision has gone Wales' way.

Risca Rev wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Was Williams' celebration any worse than Hoggs?

I personally didn't think it was all that different.

I didn't particularly notice either? Hogg does tend to get a bit over excited he needs to calm down

TJ wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Was Williams' celebration any worse than Hoggs?

I personally didn't think it was all that different.

I didn't particularly notice either?  Hogg does tend to get a bit over excited he needs to calm down

I didn't think anything of either at the time. I only paid attention when I watched the highlights yesterday, as Williams' celebration was mentioned.

Its all about respect. Dissent shows disrespect for the authority of the ref, and suggests that individual players are more important than the game itself. Simulation suggests a lack of self-respect - players in the olden days wanted to show how tough they were, and how their oppos weren't going to get to them - even when they really were hurt.

But money has made wendyballers petulant, egocentric children, and its doing the same to us.