Ireland v England - Post-match warmdown

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Ireland 19 - 9 England

A continuation of the match thread.

Be respectful please. Your mothers would be proud.

No 7&1/2 wrote:They've apparently got rid of the direction of hands ruling now, sure I heard a ref say that in the November internationals. It's now based purely on where the ball goes. Of course that's absolute rubbish in real terms as you'll see countless examples in every match where a player passed while running forward. Another one of the rules where it can be ignored when you like!

Momentum passes are still a "thing", direction of hands was only ever used as guidance to help judge them (unlike league).

But again its clearly not just the momentum of the passer that takes the ball forward in this case. Its a straight up forward pass. Even if you did feel it was harsh its certainly not a howler.

Yes a lot dont get given because they are extremely hard to judge as an official has to have a fairly flat angle on the action and be able to see the release of the ball. More often than not even if they are level theres some fat bloke in the way. Its a bit rum for folk to get on the guys back when he actually does have the angle to make a strong call.

Pretty sure Nowell went into touch anyway before getting the ball down.

The Easter knock on was a bad and strange call mind.

GunsGerms wrote:Hartley doing what Hartley does best:

https://vine.co/v/O2lpprP6tdi

Still think Cole should have been cited. He knew what he was doing and it was dirty.

Loving your work Guns.

Come on pushing over an injured player? Bad sportmanship surely?

Also on Cole, the decision not to cite Bastereau or Cole means that you are perfectly within your rights to headbutt someone if they tackle you upright. It sets a crazy precedent. There is never any reason to dip your head and smash it into the side of someone elses head. Bizarre that it wasnt picked up.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Hartley doing what Hartley does best:

https://vine.co/v/O2lpprP6tdi

Still think Cole should have been cited. He knew what he was doing and it was dirty.

Loving your work Guns.

I didn't like what Hartley did at the time and thought that he was lucky not to be penalised myself but that's the way things go.

As for Cole, you mean the head to head with Healey? For me, Cole was dropping his shoulder in anticipation for the contact. When you drop your shoulder in such a way, your head will automatically fall into this position. Healey was in a very bad position for the tackle and got hit, nothing in it as far as I am concerned.

An 'injured' player hobbling into the way rather than out of it? Not very sporting. Lucky it was just a push really

It definitely looked very suspicious. I have a feeling if they started citing guys for such incidents all these 'accidental' headbutts would drastically decrease.

As for Baster's second hit on Sexton. I am 100% with you on that gunsgerms, that was cynical in my opinion. He was standing front on and lead with his head, no shoulder dropping, purely lined Sexton up and got him.

Nachos Jones wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Hartley doing what Hartley does best:

https://vine.co/v/O2lpprP6tdi

Still think Cole should have been cited. He knew what he was doing and it was dirty.

Loving your work Guns.

I didn't like what Hartley did at the time and thought that he was lucky not to be penalised myself but that's the way things go.

As for Cole, you mean the head to head with Healey? For me, Cole was dropping his shoulder in anticipation for the contact. When you drop your shoulder in such a way, your head will automatically fall into this position. Healey was in a very bad position for the tackle and got hit, nothing in it as far as I am concerned.

To be fair on that he comes across Hartleys vision and gets a shove for being in the way in an illegal position. I doubt Hartley was aware he was limping and he had no reason to be coming across there other than to take part in play. If hes that badly injured why is he heading straight for the side of a ruck?

Coles head... I personaly think leading with the head should be a penalised offence, its dangerous to both parties.

actually the Throw Forward law has not changed. it is very brief!

"DEFINITION: THROW FORWARD
A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward. ‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line."

TMO protocol regarding "thrown forward":

http://www.sareferees.com/laws/view/2830128/

"2.6 For forward passes the TMO must not adjudicate on the flight of the ball but on the action of the player who passed the ball i.e. were the players hands passing the ball back to that player’s own goal line.

Then there is the matter of momentum.

Drive your car and when you get opposite a marker have somebody throw a ball out backwards of the marker. Then see where the pall lands relative to the marker. And the faster you drive the further it will be in front of the marker.

Unless the passer is stationary it is extremely hard to prevent the ball from travelling forward. If we were to stop play every time the pass from a moving player travelled forward we would kill rugby. If the referee is moving, he is less likely to note the forward path of the ball but a stationary spectator may well observe it. NOT THAT The PATH OF The PASSED BALL IS RELEVANT."

Nachos Jones wrote:As for Baster's second hit on Sexton. I am 100% with you on that gunsgerms, that was cynical in my opinion. He was standing front on and lead with his head, no shoulder dropping, purely lined Sexton up and got him.

Yes and given nothing was done about don't you think it is a little suspicious that a similarly dangerous headbutt happened in the very next game? I cant think of any other times it has happened.

Watching the Cole clip it looks to me like he directs his head into the side of Healy's.

Gooseberry wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:They've apparently got rid of the direction of hands ruling now, sure I heard a ref say that in the November internationals. It's now based purely on where the ball goes. Of course that's absolute rubbish in real terms as you'll see countless examples in every match where a player passed while running forward. Another one of the rules where it can be ignored when you like!

Momentum passes are still a "thing", direction of hands was only ever used as guidance to help judge them (unlike league).

But again its clearly not just the momentum of the passer that takes the ball forward in this case. Its a straight up forward pass. Even if you did feel it was harsh its certainly not a howler.

Yes a lot dont get given because they are extremely hard to judge as an official has to have a fairly flat angle on the action and be able to see the release of the ball. More often than not even if they are level theres some fat bloke in the way. Its a bit rum for folk to get on the guys back when he actually does have the angle to make a strong call.

Pretty sure Nowell went into touch anyway before getting the ball down.

The Easter knock on was a bad and strange call mind.

this point - official having a flat angle on the pass is likely to lead to the wrong decision, as the trajectory of the flight of the ball itself is NOT RELEVANT.

Gooseberry wrote:

To be fair on that he comes across Hartleys vision and gets a shove for being in the way in an illegal position. I doubt Hartley was aware he was limping and he had no reason to be coming across there other than to take part in play. If hes that badly injured why is he heading straight for the side of a ruck?

Coles head... I personaly think leading with the head should be a penalised offence, its dangerous to both parties.

Hallelujah!!!

Gooseberry wrote:

Coles head... I personaly think leading with the head should be a penalised offence, its dangerous to both parties.

See that's the thing, I really don't think that Cole lead with his head. To me, as I said earlier, he was dropping his shoulder in anticipation of contact. Had Healey been in a good tackling position this would not have happened. All Cole did was do exactly as every other player does and drop his shoulder to protect the ball (and maybe his ribs) for the contact. It happens every game. Healey, to me, was simply in a bad position to make the tackle.

I have read on other media sites about this incident and I think it's all a load of rubbish. Cole didn't lead with his head he was dropping down ready to charge in to a tackler.

If Healy hadn't been going in so high then it wouldn't have happened but after all it's a contact game and these incidents much like the Basteraud/Sexton incident previously will happen.

Yup it's just poor technique by Healy. Think Guns is just continuing the wumming.

GunsGerms wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:As for Baster's second hit on Sexton. I am 100% with you on that gunsgerms, that was cynical in my opinion. He was standing front on and lead with his head, no shoulder dropping, purely lined Sexton up and got him.

Yes and given nothing was done about don't you think it is a little suspicious that a similarly dangerous headbutt happened in the very next game? I cant think of any other times it has happened.

Watching the Cole clip it looks to me like he directs his head into the side of Healy's.

I will admit that when I first saw the Cole incident, I thought it was nasty and could have been a red card. It was only after watching it several times that I could see that Cole was not leading with his head but doing as I said before, dropping his shoulder in anticipation of impact.

Totally different to Baster's effort on Sexton which seriously should have been reviewed as he showed no intention to avoid the head to head contact. That was nasty and cynical.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yup it's just poor technique by Healy. Think Guns is just continuing the wumming.

Could it be that Cole felt threatened by Healy or that he was frustrated that England were losing?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yup it's just poor technique by Healy. Think Guns is just continuing the wumming.

To be fair, I don't think that he is wumming at all. He just see's it in a different way. He is right though, both Cole and Sexton could easily have been cited (maybe should have been) for the incidents. Cole would have walked away free in my opinion but I feel Baster may have been in some hot water.

GunsGerms wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yup it's just poor technique by Healy. Think Guns is just continuing the wumming.

Could it be that Cole felt threatened by Healy or that he was frustrated that England were losing?

He wasn't trapped in a ruck so I don't think he'd be scared this time! Sexton probably should have been cited for leading with his head against Basteraud.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

quinsforever wrote:https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=box08lq9ylg

That's why the BBC graphic on ball flight, and the tj's reaction, are wrong.

Yawn.  No doubt the medical professionals who said Heaslip has three broken vertabrae are wrong after your estimation that a knee to the back couldn't do that sort of damage.  Now you know better than the touch judge who was in line with the pass and the sophisticated software which backs up his decision that it was forward.  Becoming difficult to take your posts seriously at this stage.

my brother fractured a vertebra in his back, was hospitalised for 6 weeks, and wasnt allowed to do any form of exercise for 6 months.

Heaslip is expected to play against Wales? Cant have been much of a fracture given that a sprained ankle is likely to keep people out for longer.

after your performance during the Heineken Cup fiasco and subsequent bitterness, i am used to being attacked by you at every opportunity you get.

yes in this instance the touch judge got it wrong. i'm not that bothered as it was the last play of the match and wouldnt have affected the result.

the "sophisticated software" is only as good as the use that is made of it. IRB guidance to TMOs specifically says THE FLIGHT PATH OF THE BALL ALONE MUST NOT BE CONSIDERED. The BBC graphic showed by Guscott (provided by RTE.....) displayed ball flight alone. Doesnt matter how sophisticated the software is if it is used badly.

not just me who thinks this by the way. i will repost the link from the irish media that highlighted it

http://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/england-try-ireland-forward-pass-six-nations/15911

You mean intentionally slowing the ball down illegally in the ruck?

GunsGerms wrote:You mean intentionally slowing the ball down illegally in the ruck?

Your right there, should be stamped out.

GunsGerms wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:As for Baster's second hit on Sexton. I am 100% with you on that gunsgerms, that was cynical in my opinion. He was standing front on and lead with his head, no shoulder dropping, purely lined Sexton up and got him.

Yes and given nothing was done about don't you think it is a little suspicious that a similarly dangerous headbutt happened in the very next game? I cant think of any other times it has happened.

Watching the Cole clip it looks to me like he directs his head into the side of Healy's.

could probably still feel the studs on his ankle from a couple of years ago.

if you make what cole did illegal, that is going to only encourage people to tackle with their heads, cant you see that?

irish predilection for choke tackling is going to lead to more concussions than other teams. get rid of the choke tackle and we will see far fewer concussions.

quinsforever wrote:

not just me who thinks this by the way. i will repost the link from the irish media that highlighted it

http://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/england-try-ireland-forward-pass-six-nations/15911

It makes no difference though as the TMO added two minutes extra onto the match clock so England shouldn't have even been in the position to score a try.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/six-nations-timekeeping-controversy-in-ireland-s-match-with-england-1.2123522

Ironic that you think my input on the European rugby debate was bitter, given your constant whining about the Unions and how they are destroying rugby.

Tell me something though, whats your opinion on Einstein and the theory of relativity, was he wrong?

quinsforever wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:

quinsforever wrote:https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=box08lq9ylg

That's why the BBC graphic on ball flight, and the tj's reaction, are wrong.

Yawn.  No doubt the medical professionals who said Heaslip has three broken vertabrae are wrong after your estimation that a knee to the back couldn't do that sort of damage.  Now you know better than the touch judge who was in line with the pass and the sophisticated software which backs up his decision that it was forward.  Becoming difficult to take your posts seriously at this stage.

my brother fractured a vertebra in his back, was hospitalised for 6 weeks, and wasnt allowed to do any form of exercise for 6 months.

Heaslip is expected to play against Wales? Cant have been much of a fracture given that a sprained ankle is likely to keep people out for longer.

after your performance during the Heineken Cup fiasco and subsequent bitterness, i am used to being attacked by you at every opportunity you get.

yes in this instance the touch judge got it wrong. i'm not that bothered as it was the last play of the match and wouldnt have affected the result.

the "sophisticated software" is only as good as the use that is made of it. IRB guidance to TMOs specifically says THE FLIGHT PATH OF THE BALL ALONE MUST NOT BE CONSIDERED. The BBC graphic showed by Guscott (provided by RTE.....) displayed ball flight alone. Doesnt matter how sophisticated the software is if it is used badly.

not just me who thinks this by the way. i will repost the link from the irish media that highlighted it

http://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/england-try-ireland-forward-pass-six-nations/15911

I am no medical expert but do know about back injuries having sustained several in my life. There are degree's of fractures, some are more serious than others. The ones that Heaslip received is not that of a serious category but nonetheless considered fractures. The fractures received by Heaslip are basically cannot be treated by an operation. Its to be treated like soft tissue damage, rest and recouperation is the key with his type of fracture. Still exceedingly painful for a few weeks.

quinsforever wrote:

if you make what cole did illegal, that is going to only encourage people to tackle with their heads, cant you see that?

irish predilection for choke tackling is going to lead to more concussions than other teams. get rid of the choke tackle and we will see far fewer concussions.

Basically what you are saying is that it should be ok to headbutt the person that is about to tackle you if they tackle you upright but it isnt ok for the tackler to headbutt the player in possession of the ball? Seems strange logic and in any case I dont see how outlawing headbutting will lead to more headbutting. Even stranger logic.

The Cole/Healy incident was I'm afraid the best bit of the match from an English perspective. Revenge is  a dish best served cold and served it was. He wasn't going to back away from that one and Healy got his just deserts for his previous cowardly action. Shame England couldn't play a bit more rugby on the day as well.

important word in those articles is "maybe" and "being investigated".

irrelevant to whether the tj got the forward pass decision wrong though.

really p1sses me off when a try is scored and the tj or ref doesnt use the tmo for the pass immediately prior. whats the point in having the technology if we dont use it for try/no try decisions? dont care who is playing, its just silly human error not to use the tmo.

if englands try against wales gets disallowed by the tmo going back 3 phases for a marginal obstruction by Easter, then why not let the tmo check the forward pass? guidance from IRB is that it needs to be "clear and obviously" a forward pass. benefit of doubt is with attacking side.

Not for one minute suggesting violence is right but is the game getting that soft or over policed that the two incidents are even being considered as yellows/citings, both incidents showed poor technique by the tackler going high.

GunsGerms wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

if you make what cole did illegal, that is going to only encourage people to tackle with their heads, cant you see that?

irish predilection for choke tackling is going to lead to more concussions than other teams. get rid of the choke tackle and we will see far fewer concussions.

Basically what you are saying is that it should be ok to headbutt the person that is about to tackle you if they tackle you upright but it isnt ok for the tackler to headbutt the player in possession of the ball? Seems strange logic and in any case I dont see how outlawing headbutting will lead to more headbutting. Even stranger logic.

because, just like players are always appealing for obstruction when they are nowhere near making the tackle, they would go into the tackle upright and try to con the ref that they had been headbutted by the ball carrier and get him carded. would also mean that ball carrier would not be able to drive forwards with the ball held in both arms as by definition he would be "leading with his head"

MissBlennerhassett wrote:The Cole/Healy incident was I'm afraid the best bit of the match from an English perspective. Revenge is  a dish served cold and served it was. He wasn't going to back away from that one and Healy got his just deserts for his previous cowardly action. Shame England couldn't play a bit more rugby on the day as well.

Now this is how to WUM, you amateurs

It was just bad technique by Healy - like if you go high for the big hit then you take the risks...

If you have a big fat fella like Basteraud or Cole on the charge the momentum is always going forward.... like has anyone tried running with their heads tilted back? apart from Michael Johnson, its not very efficient and you'd probably fall on your arse running into a stiff wind.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Not for one minute suggesting violence is right but is the game getting that soft or over policed that the two incidents are even being considered as yellows/citings, both incidents showed poor technique by the tackler going high.

no-one credible is considering them as citings.

bad tackling technique deserves an occasionaly injury in order to teach people not to do it.

quinsforever wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Not for one minute suggesting violence is right but is the game getting that soft or over policed that the two incidents are even being considered as yellows/citings, both incidents showed poor technique by the tackler going high.

no-one credible is considering them as citings.

bad tackling technique deserves an occasionaly injury in order to teach people not to do it.

quins,

I couldn't agree more about learning from mistakes I have got my head in the wrong place few times as a kid and its the best way to learn.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:You mean intentionally slowing the ball down illegally in the ruck?

Your right there, should be stamped out.

quinsforever wrote:
because, just like players are always appealing for obstruction when they are nowhere near making the tackle, they would go into the tackle upright and try to con the ref that they had been headbutted by the ball carrier and get him carded. would also mean that ball carrier would not be able to drive forwards with the ball held in both arms as by definition he would be "leading with his head"

Ha so you think that players will intentionally smash themselves in the head to get a penalty. Sounds like something that Haskell might do but I don't think most players would be that daft.

quinsforever wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Not for one minute suggesting violence is right but is the game getting that soft or over policed that the two incidents are even being considered as yellows/citings, both incidents showed poor technique by the tackler going high.

no-one credible is considering them as citings.

bad tackling technique deserves an occasionaly injury in order to teach people not to do it.

As I said, there was nothing in the Cole Healy incident but do believe there was something in the Baster hit on Sexton.

All I am saying in regards to citing's is that if there is an element of doubt then why not look at it? Cole would have been let off but I still believe that the Baster incident looked cynical.

Nachos Jones wrote:

MissBlennerhassett wrote:The Cole/Healy incident was I'm afraid the best bit of the match from an English perspective. Revenge is  a dish served cold and served it was. He wasn't going to back away from that one and Healy got his just deserts for his previous cowardly action. Shame England couldn't play a bit more rugby on the day as well.

Now this is how to WUM, you amateurs

Provocative, maybe; heartfelt, certainly but not wumming.

While it was possibly dangerous how Healy led with his head in the tackle I don't think he should be punished. It was probably an accident and he ended up injuring himself (rather than Cole) anyway.

Healy is getting a bit of a reputation though (and he doesn't seem to like Cole much!).

an a different note, could anyone see what exactly happened to SOB? i have watched the video multiple times and i honestly cant see where he got concussed? maybe he took a knock earlier in the match and the impact in the tackle (think Fords arm and shoulder hit the ball and maybe the ball banged SOB on the chin?) was enough to turn the lights off?

was a wierd one.

and more than a bit worrying for SOB.

I think it would have been worth citing Cole. Im genuinely surprised that he nor Bastereau had no case to answer. If you don't question dangerous incidents like that then crafty guys like him will just exploit it to their advantage when they get frustrated or when their opponent is getting the better of them as was the case in this game.

quinsforever wrote:an a different note, could anyone see what exactly happened to SOB? i have watched the video multiple times and i honestly cant see where he got concussed? maybe he took a knock earlier in the match and the impact in the tackle (think Fords arm and shoulder hit the ball and maybe the ball banged SOB on the chin?) was enough to turn the lights off?

was a wierd one.

and more than a bit worrying for SOB.

I couldnt see either. From one angle it looked like a swinging arm from Burrell did the damage but it doesnt seem to have been the case from another angle. In any case SOB is fine. He was out having pints that night on Dawson Street.

is that part of the Irish return-to-play-protocol?

MissBlennerhassett wrote:The Cole/Healy incident was I'm afraid the best bit of the match from an English perspective. Revenge is  a dish best served cold and served it was. He wasn't going to back away from that one and Healy got his just deserts for his previous cowardly action. Shame England couldn't play a bit more rugby on the day as well.

Healy took his deserts and tumbleweed.... wryly humoured them on Twitter and marked Cole's card.  That dish ain't cold, it's just warming in the mind of a guy with an elephant memory.

quinsforever wrote:an a different note, could anyone see what exactly happened to SOB? i have watched the video multiple times and i honestly cant see where he got concussed? maybe he took a knock earlier in the match and the impact in the tackle (think Fords arm and shoulder hit the ball and maybe the ball banged SOB on the chin?) was enough to turn the lights off?

was a wierd one.

and more than a bit worrying for SOB.

It happened slightly earlier, POC gave him one of his special little late impacting taps to the back of the head, he wanted SOB off and TOD on

thanks fly just found that. brilliant

@Lesson of the weekend: don't try tackle the opposition with your face... It won't work!

Anyway, enough of this nonsense about Twitterese.  I didn't read all the thread stuff of this morning.  The important point is did we unearth enough Irish dark arts and official falsehood to give the win back to quin's team?  That's what he's waiting for and yis are very slow in making it happen for him

SecretFly wrote:

MissBlennerhassett wrote:The Cole/Healy incident was I'm afraid the best bit of the match from an English perspective. Revenge is  a dish best served cold and served it was. He wasn't going to back away from that one and Healy got his just deserts for his previous cowardly action. Shame England couldn't play a bit more rugby on the day as well.

Healy took his deserts and tumbleweed.... wryly humoured them on Twitter and marked Cole's card.  That dish ain't cold, it's just warming in the mind of a guy with an elephant memory.

Surprised he's got any memory left after that Fly, Cole's a harder nut to crack particularly when he's not trapped at the bottom of a ruck

MissBlennerhassett wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

MissBlennerhassett wrote:The Cole/Healy incident was I'm afraid the best bit of the match from an English perspective. Revenge is  a dish best served cold and served it was. He wasn't going to back away from that one and Healy got his just deserts for his previous cowardly action. Shame England couldn't play a bit more rugby on the day as well.

Healy took his deserts and tumbleweed.... wryly humoured them on Twitter and marked Cole's card.  That dish ain't cold, it's just warming in the mind of a guy with an elephant memory.

Surprised he's got any memory left after that Fly, Cole's a harder nut to crack particularly when he's not trapped at the bottom of a ruck

I'm just hoping that if Cole miraculously comes out of something in a pile with a bloody lip and Healy is seen walking away whistling,  that you're going to be big about it and not call for a citing and look back with fondness on the old saying about porrid.................  I mean, fruit cocktai................... I mean the desert being a dish and all?
I'll keep an eye out for you, MissBlenner,  if anything happens