Was Steele Right to Stop Taylor V Chavez?

Was discussing this one with Ghosty lasting night, he felt it was a good stoppage but I tend to disagree, was wondering what the board consensus was. 

Most will know the deal on this one, but for those that don't here it is in a nutshell; Meldrick Taylor, USA Olympic gold medal winner vs Julio Cesar Chavez, Mexican warrior, 1990. Both undefeated 140lb titlists in their primes, Taylor a skilful boxer with fast hands and great footwork who was sometimes overkeen on showing his metal as a brawler, Chavez the street fighting man and embodiment of the Mexican tough guy. 

For the first six rounds Taylor schools Chavez with his handspeed - outlanding him 3 or 4 punches to one - and movement, beating him up close and frustrating him with side to side movement, it was a clinic. From the 7th onward Taylor continues to win rounds by outpunching Chavez, but JCC appears to be landing the harder, more damaging blows. Taylors face starts to tell us this story. 

Going into the 12th Taylor has the fight won on points, Chavez needs a KO yet Taylor still chooses to engage him. With 17 seconds left to go Chavez drops Taylor with a brutal right hand. Taylor gets up on the count of 6, but with just 2 seconds of the fight to go ref Richard Steele waves it off, declaring Chavez the victor at 2:58 of round 12.  

Now I'm not saying refs don't have a hard job and of course the boxers safety is their first priority, but was Steele correct here? Taylor had fought a great 12 rounds, he deserved to hear the final bell and have the judges call it (whereupon he wouldve won by SD). The ten second warning had gone, the red warning light was right in front of Steele as he looked at Taylor.  Now when Steele twice asked Taylor "are you ok" Taylor did not respond - he was distracted looking at his cornerman Lou Duva who had jumped onto the apron, which made Steeles job harder. But I think a ref has to judge each situation on merit and in context - common sense refereeing. We often see it with refs giving defending champs the benefit of the doubt with KD's for example. 

This fight was over, Taylor was on his feet with 2 secs to and would not have been required to box on. For me Steele was out of order stopping this fight. Taylor was stunned but not out on his feet, and Steele shouldve known the fight was as good as over. 

What are your thoughts on this incident?

For me, the amount of time left does not matter in these positions. If a ref thinks that a fighter is in no position to continue then the fight needs to be stopped. If a fighter is badly hurt and does not have his senses about him he could get seriously hurt, even with just a few seconds left. What the ref would effectively be doing is giving a boxer what he deems to be a free shot on the basis not much time is left.

Steele was right to stop the fight if he thought Taylor was not capable of defending himself. In this instance I think the fight should of continued, but I have no objection with a fighter being stopped in the last few seconds.

Also, I dont think Taylor had the fight won on the score cards.

My bad, he did have it won on two of the cards.

I don't think it should be the case that one rules fits all. Refs should be allowed to use their common sense. Given how long the fight had left regardless of the scorecards the ref should have let him continue imo. I felt it was a poor stoppage at the time and nothing has changed since.

prettyboykev wrote:I don't think it should be the case that one rules fits all. Refs should be allowed to use their common sense. Given how long the fight had left regardless of the scorecards the ref should have let him continue imo. I felt it was a poor stoppage at the time and nothing has changed since.

I agree with this, Taylor was clearly in a position to defend himself for two seconds. The issue would be when they are in such a poor state whereby they cannot defend themselves. Think Enzo when he was brutally ko'd, if that happened 5 seconds from the end of the fight it would be a justified stoppage.

Isn't it a DQ anyway if a corner man gets up on to the ring apron like Lou Duva was? Also worrying about the clock isn't the refs job, Taylor didn't answer twice and so was not fit to continue.

I think it a case can be made either way but ultimately I tend to think Steele was justified.

Im not sure if Steele quite knew is was only 2 seconds. A few seconds is enough to take a potentially dangerous punch and the bottom line was Taylor wasnt responding effectively.

In hindsight you can say 2 seconds probably wouldnt have allowed Chavez time to inflict anymore damage but had it been 5 or 6 seconds thats still plenty of time to inflict punishment on a defenceless opponent.

bellchees wrote:Isn't it a DQ anyway if a corner man gets up on to the ring apron like Lou Duva was? Also worrying about the clock isn't the refs job, Taylor didn't answer twice and so was not fit to continue.

He would have known how long was remaining and therefore should have known that Taylor was in no real danger.

prettyboykev wrote:

bellchees wrote:Isn't it a DQ anyway if a corner man gets up on to the ring apron like Lou Duva was? Also worrying about the clock isn't the refs job, Taylor didn't answer twice and so was not fit to continue.

He would have known how long was remaining and therefore should have known that Taylor was in no real danger.

To the nearest second?

Maybe not to the nearest second but he would have known their was less than 10 seconds to go. He must have known that the fight was about to finish. I have always thought it was a poor stoppage.

i honestly dont see how anyone can justify stopping that fight. Meldrick absolutely boxed his head off for the majority of the fight, i watched a doc about it a few years back, they were right saying he hurt Taylor with every punch but Meldrick's speed and boxing ability outhustled him for long periods of the fight. A few seconds left, with Taylor bound to win on points = disgraceful stoppage imo.

prettyboykev wrote:Maybe not to the nearest second but he would have known their was less than 10 seconds to go. He must have known that the fight was about to finish. I have always thought it was a poor stoppage.

Less than ten seconds is still enough time for Chavez to inflict serious damage or harm.

I think if one could show that Steele knew there was literally not enough time for Chavez to mount a final assault then by all means you could say its a bad stoppage. But if Steele felt there was a real chance that Chavez could mount an attack on a virtually defenceless Taylor even for a few seconds then I think hes in his rights to stop it. He gave Taylor a fair chance to show he was alright and it was clear that he didnt repond effectively. So there was a real threat to him if he sent him back out.

If you look at the Enzo fight, it only takes a few seconds to inflict a brutal KO if a fighter is not fit to continue.

Terribly difficult to call, in my opinion.

I know poor old Ruby Goldstein shipped some flack for stopping the second Turpin v Robinson fight with only eight seconds left in the round. Goldstein's answer was that a fighter named George Flores had died in the ring ten days before. In that light, making a split second decison which could be the difference between life and death, it's easy to see how Steele would have made the call. On the other hand, if he knew that there were only two seconds left he would surely have also known that Chavez didn't have time to land another punch.

In hindsight, it was a bad stoppage, but in the heat of the moment ? I really don't know.

Why does the fact that Taylor was winning make any difference at all and in the heat of a fight like that I doubt Steele was paying much attention to anything other than the fighters

I don't think the scorecards have anything to do with it. Steele obviously felt Taylor couldn't continue which is his call and what he is payed to do I have no arguement with that. My problem is the time of the stoppage Taylor would most likely have got through unscathed Steele must not have realised their was so little time remaining although he should have known their was less than 10 seconds.

The time isnt really that relevant to his decision. Its more a question of "Am I sending out a defenceless fighter who can potentially be harmed?". It only takes a few seconds for that to happen so unless he actually knew there was simply no time for Chavez to land a punch then I dont think the stoppage can really be criticised. Say there was 5 seconds left? Thats all Chavez needs to run in and land some damaging shots on a Taylor whos practically out on his feet.

All Chavez would have needed is 3/4 seconds to jump on Taylor to dish out more punishment

The fight was stopped because Taylor was unfit to continue. It's not Steele's job to prop him up and wait to jump in if Chavez makes it across the ring in time. The fight is over when someone is unfit to continue and as Taylor didn't answer twice that has to constitute unfit to continue, whether its 2 seconds, 2 minutes or 2 rounds left.

manos de piedra wrote:

prettyboykev wrote:Maybe not to the nearest second but he would have known their was less than 10 seconds to go. He must have known that the fight was about to finish. I have always thought it was a poor stoppage.

Less than ten seconds is still enough time for Chavez to inflict serious damage or harm.

I think if one could show that Steele knew there was literally not enough time for Chavez to mount a final assault then by all means you could say its a bad stoppage. But if Steele felt there was a real chance that Chavez could mount an attack on a virtually defenceless Taylor even for a few seconds then I think hes in his rights to stop it. He gave Taylor a fair chance to show he was alright and it was clear that he didnt repond effectively. So there was a real threat to him if he sent him back out.

If you look at the Enzo fight, it only takes a few seconds to inflict a brutal KO if a fighter is not fit to continue.

The matter has been discussed in depth before but i 100% agree with Manos' comments above, of which i've said similar before but the new example Enzo fight is prefect for showing what could have happened.

manos de piedra wrote:The time isnt really that relevant to his decision. Its more a question of "Am I sending out a defenceless fighter who can potentially be harmed?". It only takes a few seconds for that to happen so unless he actually knew there was simply no time for Chavez to land a punch then I dont think the stoppage can really be criticised. Say there was 5 seconds left? Thats all Chavez needs to run in and land some damaging shots on a Taylor whos practically out on his feet.

You're right mate it's just the timing of the stoppage that bugs me although I do think if Steele was aware the bell was about to ring he wouldn't have stopped Taylor. The timing of the stoppage is the only reason this is contentious if it was any earlier in the round their would be no debate he was out on his feet.

If Steele hadknown there was 2 seconds left andhe let the ight continue it would have been a very bad decision because he would have allowed a fight to continue where ordinarily he would have stopped it had it been in R11. He has to take each round as an entirely different situation. That it was in R12 is irrelevant to the facts. A defenseless boxer should not be allowed to continue fighting.

A ref is not a tme keeper and he should not allow a boxer to win where were itin another round he wouldn't have allowed it to continue. Good decision.

My view is that Chavez, despite being outboxed for the most part, had roared back to hurt his man and has then done enough for the KO. For him to be denied the win after coming back from a points deficit would be unfair just because there was little time left and a seemingly defenceless opponent could hang on.
As has been alluded to, the referee is their to protect the fighter but also to do his job. Not stopping the fight when Taylor doesn't respond would not have been doing his job. Agreed with az, good decision.

Steele said that he did not know how long was left on the clock.His first duty was to protect the fighter.I believe he was a man of integrity and don't doubt his motives. From a "safety first" position it was a justifiable decision,definitely.I think ,however,that Steele should have been more aware of the time on the clock.I voted that it was the wrong call from him therefore.
I can't see how Chavez deserves the decision if it was the case that he was outboxed for the most part, but rallied in the last four rounds. Taylor deserved the decision because if it went to the scorecards he would have won!
I think everybody knows that the two seconds would not have given Chavez a win. I advocate leniancy by the ref under such circumstances.
And I believe I'm right in saying, even if he did score a knock-down, even if a fighter were knocked cold, it doesn't count, after the allotted time of the round elapses.

Well yeah if he hits him after the bell then going by the exact letter of the rules it should be a DQ but that seems fairly irrelevant

He was talking about the saved by the bell rule presumably, which probably wasn't in effect. I think he would have had to beat the count.

Oh yeah you've not been able to be saved by the bell for decades now, a famous pre fight line of Harold Ledermans

Thanks for that Imperial Ghosty.
Scenario One- Chavez lands a blow within two seconds that puts him down but but Chavez still not winning the fight.

Scenario Two-The ref gives Taylor a bit of breathing space-Taylor wins, end of story. Two secs breathing space, for the guy who schooled Chavez before running out of juice in the last round.

Trying to illustrate that Chavez could only win with a KO. Which is why I think the call did not do the fight justice.

Personally I think it was the right call. The possible repercussions of making a late call are so much more serious than for making an early or premature stoppage. Having just watched the interview with Taylor in 2002 from Legendary Nights, it's sad and sobering to see the marked deterioration in him. I didn't realise it had been so bad.

It's a shame for Taylor that there were only two seconds left, and while those two seconds wouldn't have given Chavez time to win the fight, it WOULD have been long enough in theory for him to have delivered a potentially devastating blow to a guy already seriously injured. Taylor suffered a facial fracture, severe facial bruising and was apparently urinating pure blood the day after. For me, that says he'd had enough punishment and Steele shouldn't be expected to regret the stoppage.

Were it at any other time in the fight nobody would have complained about the stoppage which is why i've always felt it was the right decision

In the great scheme of things I don't think that the result of the fight changed things too much- Taylor was never the same after this fight , and had he won, a rematch would have been a certainty, in which in think JCC would hav got the job done quicker. I think that the fact that Richard Steele was seen as a house ref for Don King clouds the issue some what, and whilst with hindsight it's easy to say that it was a poor stoppage, I would allways rather too soon than too late when it comes to thses things

I've not read through the comments yet but i voted yes. If the tables had turned and Taylor had died, because Steele didn't stop the fight, and let it go on because he knew there was less than 10 seconds left, even though there was a chance Taylor could be seriously hurt, people would want him hanged. It doesn't matter how long is left in a fight, a fighters safety comes first, no matter who you support.

If only it were that simple to predict ,or know,when a boxer is to be badly damaged. Andries took much more punishment from Hearns than would be allowed now,yet came back to regain his title twice.Khan was, for my money, lucky not to get the ref's intervention against Maidana. If the ref had stopped Khan two seconds from the bell,(purely comparison, I know this was not the case in his fight) and ruined his career, would that seem justifiable to us? Simply because the ref thought he was shipping too many?
At the end of the day the scary thing is, all such jedgement calls are partly arbitrary and very subjective. Richard Steele's job as a ref is to not only protect the fighter but to direct and steer the fight, (IMO) and in this job he failed, by not knowing how long was to go in the round, and for that there can be no excuse.
I think it is great that we say "err on the side of caution", honestly, however the thought that he could have been irreperably injured in two seconds-and it is after all speculation that Chavez could even have landed a punch in those seconds-is as likely or unlikely as any other two seconds of the fight. I don't think it is usually "one punch extra" that ends boxers' careers, as per in the movies,the damage is usually long -term and acumulative.
Taylor went on too long and is now a classic punch-drunk type, the issue there is whether the sport needs regualtion to stop guys like him and Holyfield boxing too long, but that is another debate, and one we have had recently if memory serves. Cheers lads.

andygf wrote:If only it were that simple to predict ,or know,when a boxer is to be badly damaged. Andries took much more punishment from Hearns than would be allowed now,yet came back to regain his title twice.Khan was, for my money, lucky not to get the ref's intervention against Maidana. If the ref had stopped Khan two seconds from the bell,(purely comparison, I know this was not the case in his fight) and ruined his career, would that seem justifiable to us? Simply because the ref thought he was shipping too many?
At the end of the day the scary thing is, all such jedgement calls are partly arbitrary and very subjective. Richard Steele's job as a ref is to not only protect the fighter but to direct and steer the fight, (IMO) and in this job he failed, by not knowing how long was to go in the round, and for that there can be no excuse.
I think it is great that we say "err on the side of caution", honestly, however the thought that he could have been irreperably injured in two seconds-and it is after all speculation that Chavez could even have landed a punch in those seconds-is as likely or unlikely as any other two seconds of the fight. I don't think it is usually "one punch extra" that ends boxers' careers, as per in the movies,the damage is usually long -term and acumulative.
Taylor went on too long and is now a classic punch-drunk type, the issue there is whether the sport needs regualtion to stop guys like him and Holyfield boxing too long, but that is another debate, and one we have had recently if memory serves. Cheers lads.

with all due respect, you just wrote nonsense. One punch can do serious damage and Steele was absolutely correct in not allowing Chavez the opportunity to land that one punch. I recall the Eubank/Watson as a prime example. Watson put Eubank down with 8 seconds to go in R11. Had the ref administered the standing 8 count, the bell would have gone and Michael would be walking around quite comfortably. But he didn't and within seconds of the KD, Eubank landed the uppercut that ended Michael career and nearly his life.

One punch can make all the difference. In this case it did as it was not an accumulation of punches that caused the injury but the uppercut together with the whiplash effect of Michael's neck springing off the bottom rope. Think carefully as boxing is a deradly sport in many ways.

Got to go with the majority on good stoppage. At the start of every fight the ref says "protect yourselves at all times." When the guy can no longer protect himself it's time to stop the fight. He asked him if he was OK twice (twice more than plenty of guys get) but he just stood there. If Taylor had shown any sign of knowing where he was then Steele would of had a choice, but Taylor in my opinion didn't give him a choice.

I recall the Eubank/Watson as a prime example. Watson put Eubank down with 8 seconds to go in R11. Had the ref administered the standing 8 count, the bell would have gone and Michael would be walking around quite comfortably. But he didn't and within seconds of the KD, Eubank landed the uppercut that ended Michael career and nearly his life.
************************************************************
Az, you're clearly a student of the "Dave667 School of thought on Eubank/Watson 2" I've said for years that, had Eubank been given the standing eight count, Watson would have gone on to be World Champion and we'd be speaking of him in much higher regard than we already do!

DAVE667 wrote:Dave667 School of thought

Contradiction in terms?

TRUSSMAN isn't here, someone had to...

Obviously one punch can change the fight,or damage a fighter, apologies if it meant i was belittling this eventuality, but it is not usually the case in serious injuries in boxing. By all means copy and paste my whole post and deride it as nonsense ,but the bit you take issue with Az, I have no issue with your counter-argument, so no need to sling mud about. I don't know how old you are, unless you really are 98 which I doubt, but I remember all the casualties from the last 25 years and grew up with the name Johnny Owen being mentioned often...
Also
I don't know what "deradly" means.After reading your recent musings, maybe it is you who should take your own advice and think carefully before you commit to writing?

Didn't Mosley stop Mayorga with only a few seconds to go? If memory serves, he pretty much dashed straight over and decked him.

BALTIMORA wrote:Didn't Mosley stop Mayorga with only a few seconds to go? If memory serves, he pretty much dashed straight over and decked him.

He did. I had him losing the fight aswell but as far as I can remember he didnt need the stoppage as the judges had him up.

manos de piedra wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:Didn't Mosley stop Mayorga with only a few seconds to go? If memory serves, he pretty much dashed straight over and decked him.

He did. I had him losing the fight aswell but as far as I can remember he didnt need the stoppage as the judges had him up.

It wasn't as late as Chavez left it think their was around 1 minute to go. For what it's worth I had him behind as well. Mayorga still had a pop at the judges but you would expect no less from the delightful man.

There was one second left in the Mayorga/Mosley fight

prettyboykev wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:Didn't Mosley stop Mayorga with only a few seconds to go? If memory serves, he pretty much dashed straight over and decked him.

He did. I had him losing the fight aswell but as far as I can remember he didnt need the stoppage as the judges had him up.

It wasn't as late as Chavez left it think their was around 1 minute to go. For what it's worth I had him behind as well. Mayorga still had a pop at the judges but you would expect no less from the delightful man.

Cant remember exactly how long was left but definately less than a minute. Last few seconds I would have thought.

Manos you may well be right I thought it was longer than that but I've been wrong before. The most enjoyable bit was Mayorga's interview when he found out he was losing on the judges cards. I'll try and find a link for it.

Official time of the stoppage was 2.59 of the 12th round

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Official time of the stoppage was 2.59 of the 12th round

Maybe D4 was right all along, never write off a great fighter

prettyboykev wrote:Manos you may well be right I thought it was longer than that but I've been wrong before. The most enjoyable bit was Mayorga's interview when he found out he was losing on the judges cards. I'll try and find a link for it.

Yeah I had him a couple of rounds up though I cant remember if that included scoring the last round - which ma have put it a draw or Mosley winning if the knockdowns were counted. I think one of the cards was a joke card though that had Mosley up like 6 rounds or something ridiculous. The fight was close and couldnt have been more than 2 rounds in it.

There we go then. I think Mosley was up on two cards, but it was still a hell of a wallop.

andygf wrote:Obviously one punch can change the fight,or damage a fighter, apologies if it meant i was belittling this eventuality, but it is not usually the case in serious injuries in boxing. By all means copy and paste my whole post and deride it as nonsense ,but the bit you take issue with Az, I have no issue with your counter-argument, so no need to sling mud about. I don't know how old you are, unless you really are 98 which I doubt, but I remember all the casualties from the last 25 years and grew up with the name Johnny Owen being mentioned often...
Also
I don't know what "deradly" means.After reading your recent musings, maybe it is you who should take your own advice and think carefully before you commit to writing?

I was at ringside at the Watson fight. I went there to support Mike. I trained with Mike and know him very well. I've known him for over 20 years. One punch did the damage and it was seconds to go also. So to say Steele made a bad call is putting Taylor's health at risk.

Yes I remember many boxing tragedies and am glad they have lowered in number. Much of that is due to the safety inprovements made after Mike sued the bbbc for damages. That's one of the reasons you do not get more deaths. Guys like spencer oliver may not be around today and that FW from sunderland (forget his name).

Steele made a brilliant call and may have saved Taylor's life.

andygf

Nonsense was not supposed to belittle or insult you. Just difficult posting from work sometimes. Apologies if it came across that way....ditto typos

azania wrote:

andygf wrote:Obviously one punch can change the fight,or damage a fighter, apologies if it meant i was belittling this eventuality, but it is not usually the case in serious injuries in boxing. By all means copy and paste my whole post and deride it as nonsense ,but the bit you take issue with Az, I have no issue with your counter-argument, so no need to sling mud about. I don't know how old you are, unless you really are 98 which I doubt, but I remember all the casualties from the last 25 years and grew up with the name Johnny Owen being mentioned often...
Also
I don't know what "deradly" means.After reading your recent musings, maybe it is you who should take your own advice and think carefully before you commit to writing?

I was at ringside at the Watson fight. I went there to support Mike. I trained with Mike and know him very well. I've known him for over 20 years. One punch did the damage and it was seconds to go also. So to say Steele made a bad call is putting Taylor's health at risk.

Yes I remember many boxing tragedies and am glad they have lowered in number. Much of that is due to the safety inprovements made after Mike sued the bbbc for damages. That's one of the reasons you do not get more deaths. Guys like spencer oliver may not be around today and that FW from sunderland (forget his name).

Steele made a brilliant call and may have saved Taylor's life.

Paul Ingle and he was from Scarborough.