Was Steele Right to Stop Taylor V Chavez?

First topic message reminder :


Was discussing this one with Ghosty lasting night, he felt it was a good stoppage but I tend to disagree, was wondering what the board consensus was. 

Most will know the deal on this one, but for those that don't here it is in a nutshell; Meldrick Taylor, USA Olympic gold medal winner vs Julio Cesar Chavez, Mexican warrior, 1990. Both undefeated 140lb titlists in their primes, Taylor a skilful boxer with fast hands and great footwork who was sometimes overkeen on showing his metal as a brawler, Chavez the street fighting man and embodiment of the Mexican tough guy. 

For the first six rounds Taylor schools Chavez with his handspeed - outlanding him 3 or 4 punches to one - and movement, beating him up close and frustrating him with side to side movement, it was a clinic. From the 7th onward Taylor continues to win rounds by outpunching Chavez, but JCC appears to be landing the harder, more damaging blows. Taylors face starts to tell us this story. 

Going into the 12th Taylor has the fight won on points, Chavez needs a KO yet Taylor still chooses to engage him. With 17 seconds left to go Chavez drops Taylor with a brutal right hand. Taylor gets up on the count of 6, but with just 2 seconds of the fight to go ref Richard Steele waves it off, declaring Chavez the victor at 2:58 of round 12.  

Now I'm not saying refs don't have a hard job and of course the boxers safety is their first priority, but was Steele correct here? Taylor had fought a great 12 rounds, he deserved to hear the final bell and have the judges call it (whereupon he wouldve won by SD). The ten second warning had gone, the red warning light was right in front of Steele as he looked at Taylor.  Now when Steele twice asked Taylor "are you ok" Taylor did not respond - he was distracted looking at his cornerman Lou Duva who had jumped onto the apron, which made Steeles job harder. But I think a ref has to judge each situation on merit and in context - common sense refereeing. We often see it with refs giving defending champs the benefit of the doubt with KD's for example. 

This fight was over, Taylor was on his feet with 2 secs to and would not have been required to box on. For me Steele was out of order stopping this fight. Taylor was stunned but not out on his feet, and Steele shouldve known the fight was as good as over. 

What are your thoughts on this incident?

I was at the Ingle fight, have to say seeing a fighter in that kind of distress is a truly sobering moment and can make even the most commited of fans question why they follow the sport. Will never be free from incident but as Az has rightly said if there is one good thing to come out of the Watson situation it is that Britain now has some of the best safety measures in the world. And to the original question the stoppage was absolutely right. He had chance to prove he was ok to go on and he did not satisfy the ref that he was, the time left is irrelevant to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2oTL5tfckQ

That's Mosley vs Mayorga last round, Lederman had Mosley 5 rounds ahead going in to the last round.

prettyboykev wrote:

azania wrote:

andygf wrote:Obviously one punch can change the fight,or damage a fighter, apologies if it meant i was belittling this eventuality, but it is not usually the case in serious injuries in boxing. By all means copy and paste my whole post and deride it as nonsense ,but the bit you take issue with Az, I have no issue with your counter-argument, so no need to sling mud about. I don't know how old you are, unless you really are 98 which I doubt, but I remember all the casualties from the last 25 years and grew up with the name Johnny Owen being mentioned often...
Also
I don't know what "deradly" means.After reading your recent musings, maybe it is you who should take your own advice and think carefully before you commit to writing?

I was at ringside at the Watson fight. I went there to support Mike. I trained with Mike and know him very well. I've known him for over 20 years. One punch did the damage and it was seconds to go also. So to say Steele made a bad call is putting Taylor's health at risk.

Yes I remember many boxing tragedies and am glad they have lowered in number. Much of that is due to the safety inprovements made after Mike sued the bbbc for damages. That's one of the reasons you do not get more deaths. Guys like spencer oliver may not be around today and that FW from sunderland (forget his name).

Steele made a brilliant call and may have saved Taylor's life.

Paul Ingle and he was from Scarborough.

North of watford. A foreign country to me and I reckon I may need a passport and a pocket dictionary/translator to understand the natives.

I was at ringside at the Watson fight. I went there to support Mike. I trained with Mike and know him very well. I've known him for over 20 years. One punch did the damage and it was seconds to go also. So to say Steele made a bad call is putting Taylor's health at risk.
....................
Watson was a quality fighter and an inspirational man, my dad went to the McCallum fight, it's great to see him on TV with the likes of DeGale these days.

No probs Az-My dad got me into boxing ,but he gave up after Watson and McClennan, I think Oliver was the straw that broke the camel's back for him. It's good to hear people on this forum sounding sympathetic to Enzo. I hope that there are times when we all check ourselves in our enjoyment of the sport-forgetting the pain inflicted.As a youngster, I didn't want to consider it, it only mattered if "my man" won! Thank goodness for the improvements these days which help save lives, and we shouldn't forget Watson's plight.

He didn't stop the fight because of Taylor...Stopped the fight because he was "probably" King's referee.....

Where was he when Chavez was spanking Rosario ?????? Rosario was finished after that beating..No hurry then to stop it.

Where was he when Frank was being decapitated by Tyson??? No hurry then!!

Why didn't he see the red lights flashing behing Taylor to tell him there was less than 10 seconds to go?? let's face it he did..

Why didn't he give Taylor as a champ the benefit of the doubt?

Why was he firing questions so quickly at Meldrick?? Not because he thought the bell might ring with Taylor on his feet and be saved?? Cause not.

Look I don't mind accepting a decision if I think the guy had a fighter's interests at heart..

But it stank............and you all know it!!

One of the reasons Lawless objected to the guy..

I've seen Steele more than any of you guys and he got the big fights for a reason in my opinion.

Would point out Truss that just because your American doesn't mean you've seen Steele officiate more than the rest of us

You used to watch Nbc, abc, Espn, Cbs, Showtme, Hbo etc did you..????

Have always thought it the correct, but I am closer to thinking it was a bad decision that before.

He knew how long was left. Whether it should affect his decision, I'd still say no. If Chavez gets him to a position from which he can't continue, Chavez has 'earnt it' as much as Taylor had by building up a lead on the scorecards. You can't stop after 35:58 or when is the cut off point?

Therefore that's not too important IMO. The key thing for me is if he's in a position to continue. I've definitely seen people in a worse state allowed to continue, and I think there are a few points of controversy:
1. It definitely looked like Taylor was distracted by his corner. Steele wasn't to know this though.
2. It did seem like it was possibly rushed. He asked Taylor twice if he was OK, but quickly, and didn't give him any instructions.

So I'm sort of on the fence. I can see a lot of reasons to stop it, but I think Steele should have asked him to walk towards him or raise his gloves. Not the most outlandish theory that he rushed the stoppage because he knew there wasn't much time and he was close with King. I don't think he gave him much chance to prove himself OK, but he was swaying and not all there. Can see why this is always such a divisive debate.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You used to watch Nbc, abc, Espn, Cbs, Showtme, Hbo etc did you..????

You. Tube.

BALTIMORA wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You used to watch Nbc, abc, Espn, Cbs, Showtme, Hbo etc did you..????

You. Tube.

Such a thing as fight replays Truss

So people just pick Steele fights do they wally???

I saw Steele before he was a headline referee did you???

Just do one prat.

IN fairness you're right I mean after all I grew up with George Bush jr and Reagan and as you can catch their main speeches and pres-debates on youtube then you obviously no them as well as me..

Okay...I agree you're right!!

Truss no need to get offensive now is there

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:So people just pick Steele fights do they wally???

I saw Steele before he was a headline referee did you???

Just do one prat.

Truss no need to get sand in your foof. You just made a statement which was somewhat presumptive, that's all.

George Bush sr....

He called me a tube...that's not offensive???

I'm saying I was aware of the guy before he was mainstream......

Referees serve their apprenticeships...

I think it is definitely a bit disingenuous to say the decision may have saved Taylor's life.The same meaningless statement could be said when any fighter takes a punch, or if the fight is stopped at any moment of a fight.
I know it sounds harsh but as I said earlier, Steele should know full well, the ten second point had been reached..it's not like he was Jersey Joe ,ie., a rookie ref who had little experience.
I will never understand why ,if Steele was so humane, he consciously decided to stop a fight two seconds from the end.Either it's a genuinely appalling refereeing fault, or it's bias.I believe it is the former.There have been other times when a fighter has been in similar trouble in the last round-just as a football ref will often allow a decision to go in one team's favour eventually ,if he knows he has given an unfair, dodgy one (or more) against them earlier. It's part of sport ,and anyone who thinks that refs do not make these judgements, are naive.It's about giving leeway.A great example of this is when people say," How can he win the title from the champion, by fighting off the back foot,by running away?" It's boxing etiquette to favour the champ.Is it in the rules?No.
Hell, if refs stuck by the Queensbury, and deducted points every time they saw infringements...! Steele saying that he was protecting his fighter from damage;I simply don't believe it.

Andy-it's easy to say he wasn't really that humane, but when would YOU have had him stop it if he was to prove to be more so? Taylor had taken a tonne of punishment (that's an official measure) and perhaps Steele was just waiting for a suitable juncture. A bad knockdown may have been just that.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:He didn't stop the fight because of Taylor...Stopped the fight because he was "probably" King's referee.....

Where was he when Chavez was spanking Rosario ?????? Rosario was finished after that beating..No hurry then to stop it.

Where was he when Frank was being decapitated by Tyson??? No hurry then!!

Why didn't he see the red lights flashing behing Taylor to tell him there was less than 10 seconds to go?? let's face it he did..

Why didn't he give Taylor as a champ the benefit of the doubt?

Why was he firing questions so quickly at Meldrick?? Not because he thought the bell might ring with Taylor on his feet and be saved?? Cause not.

Look I don't mind accepting a decision if I think the guy had a fighter's interests at heart..

But it stank............and you all know it!!

One of the reasons Lawless objected to the guy..

I've seen Steele more than any of you guys and he got the big fights for a reason in my opinion.

So what if he saw the red light. What could have happened is that JCC could have landed the fatal cblow and Taylor winning but in a coma. Great victory and refereeing there then. The health of the boxer is paramount.

andygf wrote:I think it is definitely a bit disingenuous to say the decision may have saved Taylor's life.The same meaningless statement could be said when any fighter takes a punch, or if the fight is stopped at any moment of a fight.
I know it sounds harsh but as I said earlier, Steele should know full well, the ten second point had been reached..it's not like he was Jersey Joe ,ie., a rookie ref who had little experience.
I will never understand why ,if Steele was so humane, he consciously decided to stop a fight two seconds from the end.Either it's a genuinely appalling refereeing fault, or it's bias.I believe it is the former.There have been other times when a fighter has been in similar trouble in the last round-just as a football ref will often allow a decision to go in one team's favour eventually ,if he knows he has given an unfair, dodgy one (or more) against them earlier. It's part of sport ,and anyone who thinks that refs do not make these judgements, are naive.It's about giving leeway.A great example of this is when people say," How can he win the title from the champion, by fighting off the back foot,by running away?" It's boxing etiquette to favour the champ.Is it in the rules?No.
Hell, if refs stuck by the Queensbury, and deducted points every time they saw infringements...! Steele saying that he was protecting his fighter from damage;I simply don't believe it.

JCC had enough time to land the life ending punch. Sorry to say but this is something very close to me. I cant get it out of my head when driving back from the Watson fight and hearing on the radio that he had been rished into hospital after lapsing into a coma I will never forget his mother at his bedside and his 2 daughters looking absolutely distraught when visiting him. One punch did that. Better err on the side of caution. When a boxer is out on his feet after taking a serious beating, end the fight regardless of time.

CURRY COULD'VE KILLED MCCRORY WITH A LIFE ENDING PUNCH....

Don't tell me he wasn't trying to protect King's fighter...

Life ending garbage lot's of fighters are allowed to go on especially if they are champion...

There is either alot naivete or people really are dumb..

It smelt..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:CURRY COULD'VE KILLED MCCRORY WITH A LIFE ENDING PUNCH....

Don't tell me he wasn't trying to protect King's fighter...

Life ending garbage lot's of fighters are allowed to go on especially if they are champion...

There is either alot naivete or people really are dumb..

It smelt..

Taylor was out on his feet. Why should the ref rob JCC of a victory? If the same incident happened in round 10 you wouldn't be complaining. That it was the last round is irrelevant. Also why should Steele play fast and loose with Taylor's health. He was in no fit state to continue and couldn't defend himself.

A great decision from Steele.

Ello gentlemen ,hope all is well, I didn't get around to commenting on the Groves/Froch debate but it reminded me of this very good thread from some time ago.Thought it was worth revisiting ! Cheers.

It's done the rounds this one Andy!

I thought it was dodgy at the time,  moved towards the fence, but I'm erring back to not liking it again. Guys are often counted out at 10 if they 're still getting to their feet, but if they're up, rightly or wrongly, they are invariably given a little more time... Beckoned towards the ref, told to put their hands up etc. Steele asked him if he was ok, twice... But it was ' you ok, you ok?' Pretty quickly and then waved it off.

I'm unconvinced whether Taylor was fit to continue, but another ref, or in another round he'd be given more time to prove it, I believe.

It's not like he was getting battered round the ring for the 12th. He got caught by a big shot with about 20 seconds to go, and then put down with the next one that caught him clean less than 10 seconds later.

Like anyone, I 'd rather a fight was stopped too early than too late. And I agree largely that when it happens in a round shouldn't really matter... If he's falling into the ref with two seconds left, then stop it. But he wasnt and i dont think you can entirely ignore the context. At least that's my view this year/month/day whenever.

My issue is with Taylor's response.  The ref was in his face counting, every fighter knows in this situation the thing to do is to raise their hands and nod their head to show they are compus mentis.

Taylor was either out of it or didn't want to continue in my view.


I don't doubt there was some kind of "greasing of the wheels" in Chavez's favour,  that's how pro boxing operates.

Referee's cannot make decisions based on how much time they think is left in the round. If Meldrick Taylor was unfit to continue then the fight was rightly stopped.

2 seconds left on the official clock (I thought it was 4, but Boxrec has it 2:58), I think time should be a consideration. Was he fit to continue fighting another 12 rounds? No.

Was he fit to continue another 2 seconds? Don't see why not. JCC still had to cross the ring to get to him, assuming he remained a static target, therefore the bell would've gone before any punishment taken. Steele saved him from nothing.

If Mills Lane had made the stoppage maybe I'd find it more acceptable......

We have a guy who gave Bruno his last warning against KING'S Tyson whilst ignoring the headbutts, elbows and blatant punching when Bruno was down.......

We have a guy who controversially stopped Ruddock who ws giving Tyson a hard night!!

We have a guy that let King's fighter Chavez finish Edwin Rosario as a top level fighter........Had to chuck the towel in with Rosario fighting blind.......

We have a guy who let an out on his feet Hearns (Arum's big name fighter) continue against Barkley !!!

We have a guy who tried to get a rampant Marvin stopped on cuts against the younger more marketable Hearns..when only one fighter was going to win and it wasn't Tommy !!

and we are supposed to believe he didn't know there was no time left in the fight with red lights flashing behind Taylor........and he stopped it to save taylor!!!.......I've never seen Steele rush an apparaisal like that either......Took longer with Tommy and others to decide !!

Maybe Taylor was to injured to continue........BUT IT STUNK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..and it always will.......

To be fair it probably only took curry 2 secs to poleaxe a defenceless mccrory, and kovalev 2 seconds to help himself to a piece of sillakh pie the other night. I haven't timed them.

What bothered me was how quickly he waved it off. The flip side is Taylor hadn't put his guard up, and didnt answer him... he gave him the chance to stop it. I'm moving to the fence again:laugh:

Like I said If it was Mills Lane you'd buy it more........

I've never really been able to make up my mind on that stoppage, and I suspect that'll always remain the case. By the letter of the law, it's easier to argue for it rather than against it, I suppose, but as Truss and a few others have shown, there are just so many things about that stoppage that seem a little, erm....'odd', I think.

First off, I certainly don't think there's any possibility of Taylor himself not wanting to continue, as others have suggested. Meldrick had one of the biggest hearts I've ever seen in boxing, as shown not only against Chavez, but also in the Glenwood Brown and Espana fights.

Had Chavez beaten him to the point of not being physically able to continue? I think it's debatable. Taylor had absorbed some terrible punishment, yes, but at the end of the day he was still back on his feet (albeit aided by the ropes) by the count of five. Now a lot of people say that Taylor gave Steele absolutely no indication that he was alright, or that he gave no answer to Steele's questions. Again, I'm not quite sure. The shaky camera by the ring post which captured the moment during the fight makes it hard to be sure, but after Steele's first "You Ok?", Taylor does appear to give a nod of the head, although admittedly it's a very small one at best.

In the split second after Steele's first question comes the killer blow - Taylor looking past Steele and over to Duva, by now up on the ring apron across the ring, yelling to Steele that the fight is already over (the bell could save a fighter in the final round in this case, and Duva had been wrongly informed that the remaining time had elapsed during those few seconds in which Taylor had hauled himself up, and that Steele had simply not heard the bell to end the fight amidst the chaos, which as we now know was wrong).

If you think that Taylor was completely rendered unable to continue, then I think you also have to believe that he wouldn't have answered Steele's second question even if Duva hadn't been in the opposite corner distracting him. But hand on heart, I can't really say that.

And as others have said, Steele's inspection did seem to have a little bit of panic about it. Fair enough, he was asking for signs from Taylor, but he was also nigh-on waving his arms to signal the end before he'd even finished asking his second question, right in front of the flashing red lights on the ring posts which signalled that there were fewer than ten seconds left in the fight.

As I said, I think there's a case to be made that Taylor did give an (admittedly small) indication that he was alright after Steele's first question, but you have to wonder why Steele bothered asking a second time if he wasn't going to give him any time to answer that time out.

On the other hand, if Taylor did as I suspect give a nod of some sort to Steele, he really should have done so more obviously to reduce the risk of having the fight waved off, and as Milky says, putting his gloves up to his head would have been a bonus, too.

Also, while Steele will surely have known that there were fewer than ten seconds to go, he can't have known exactly how much time was left; we know that with two seconds left, given that Steele would have had to give Taylor the go-ahead and that Chavez would have had to cross the ring, there was no chance of another punch being landed in the fight. However, Steele didn't know that, and if two seconds had turned out to be, say, seven or eight seconds, then for all he knew Chavez may have been able to help himself to a final, sickening shot of a defenceless Taylor which, while not enough to win him the fight (as I said, Taylor would have been saved by the bell), could have had awful consequences for Meldrick and his future (God knows that the fight already took enough from him, even without that additional hypothetical blow).

So difficult to say, I think.

are people forgetting by the time it was waved off there was 2 seconds left! there would have been no more punches! had the ref asked him to put his gloves up or step forward time would have ran out. the ref seemed aware of this, he couldn't wave it off quick enough. he had his eye on the clock all the time. he was excited to get the opportunity to end it.

Chris - if a fighter could be saved by the bell in the final round then, knowing there were 10 or less seconds left, could Taylor have just immediately have taken a knee (thus avoiding further punishment) and won the fight (bell would've rung within the 'knee period')?

I think what swings it for me in Steeles favour is Taylors reaction - its like a What?! but without even lifting his arms to protest or gesticulating. He can't even get his arms off the rope so he stands there in disbelief.

TopHat24/7 wrote:Chris - if a fighter could be saved by the bell in the final round then, knowing there were 10 or less seconds left, could Taylor have just immediately have taken a knee (thus avoiding further punishment) and won the fight (bell would've rung within the 'knee period')?

Once the fight had been waved on, yes in principle he could, though arguably the ref could decide that that action was enough to stop it. I guess the argument is, if Taylor was too a scrambled to answer that he's ok to the ref, then he's too la la to have the wherewithal to take a knee.

Yeh, agree, I was just more curious on the technical point of it.

That said, Griffin pee'd me right off doing it against RJJ so maybe I shouldn't be advocating it....

ShahenshahG wrote:I think what swings it for me in Steeles favour is Taylors reaction - its like a What?! but without even lifting his arms to protest or gesticulating. He can't even get his arms off the rope so he stands there in disbelief.

Fair point shah, but at the end of gruelling 12 rounders some guys are too knackered to raise their arms in victory. There's no doubt he was in genuine trouble. But it was the first time in the fight. In a big world title fight, with the guy ahead, last round.... was he given every chance? You regularly see refs lift the arms of fighters up for them and see if they can walk forward. Just seemed rushed to me, though like I said I can see the other side.

Crumbs. I opened a can of worms ,eh ?! Kudos to Sugar Boy for the article. I saw the fight in question on the Legendary Nights documentary( would have called it Legendary Fights myself).I haven't seen the fight for a while, Chris' above "breakdown" did make the jaw drop...no two ways about it, Steele's impartiality has been questioned by some of you respected posters.I didn't expect this as ,as far as I knew, Steele's reputation has been pretty solid.Now I'm not so sure about him, our learned colleague Truss' examples, whilst going a wee bit overboard wit the rhetoric, are very interesting indeed.

I must admit that since originally posting, in the back of my mind I did wonder if our need for kicks over-rules our compassion to the boxer,and I felt a bit uncomfortable arguing for leniency for Meldrick when it could have possibly killed him.It's cool to know that you agree with me that the boxer's safety is paramount and I sometimes do feel bad that we can't help but forget this fact sometimes....
My view has not changed though ,in that I think Steele ref'd the fight very badly indeed.
I always thought that those two seconds to go would not have been enough for a Chavez kayo,and any ref worth his salt would have been aware that there were only two seconds of the fight remaining-Steele claimed not to have been aware of the time issue however. Seeign as Chavez was never going to get the decision any other way, all those circumstantial bits of evidence to seem to add up to something decidedly iffy.

Andy - theres a whole 1 hr and 15ish mins of the fight up on youtube include the initial reaction of the commentators - bit more telling than legendary nights which probably plays it up a little more.