Is Ian Madigan overrated? and where does Trimble fit in when he comes back?

Not trying to start a wum article but just one to maybe start some discussion, I have been wondering other fans opinions if Ian Madigan is overrated?

I think he's a great player, place kicking has a great success %, his running game is the best of all the Irish out halves, but his kicking from hand can leave a little to be desired.

A lot of talk is that he is the second best out half in Ireland or has the potential to be, but is this warranted?

Some Ulster fans are of the opinion that if all the outhaves were fit and Sexton were to be injured, that it would be Jackson start and Madigan would be the bench option maybe some Munster fans say the same about Keatley.

2013 when Sexton was injured, it was Jackson that was the starting out half, with O'Gara and then Madigan on the bench.
When Sexton left Leinster it was Madigan's chance to claim the 10 shirt but has lost out to Jimmy Gopperth a lot of the time.
2015 Sexton injuried and it is Keatley thats started against Italy.

3 chances under 3 different coaches, yet he hasn't staked his claim to the 10 shirt yet?

So is he the up their with the other outhalfs to be second best in Ireland, or the just the best of them for the bench as he covers more positions?

2) Where does Trimble fit in when he comes back?

Trimble really stood out last year as the Irish player of the tournament, but when he gets back to fitness where does he fit in.

Munster and other Irish fans have been full of praise for Zebo and how much he has come on in the last year. He's playing really well and having a great tournament.

Bowe is a class act and although not receiving the reviews is the 3rd best winger behind Williams and Watson is the statistics team of the tournament so far, and has been playing very well in the set gameplan.

So it leaves the question when Trimble is back fit does he start on the wing and if so who drops out?

Dave kearney, Earls and Fitzgerald also where do they fit in?

I think so, Madigan is extremely overrated, you just have to look at the England game and how the momentum swung when Sexton came off, crazy stuff. Lucky Ireland had such a big margin.

The incumbents are doing well. Trimble will get a chance and whoever is performing better will take the spots. I still think it's Bowe +1 but Joe might not be quite so sure

Its Fitzgerald v Zebo for the left wing as they have a left boot, and its Bowe v Trimble for the right wing as they have a right boot.

Its Earls v Payne for the centre.

Trimble did a great job last year in the 6Ns (not so standout against Argentina), but there seems to be a big emphasis now in the backs being able to play every position. Trimble's kicking (though much improved) just isn't good enough to cover fullback (or cover there if the fullback has gone forward carrying the ball).

We don't need full back cover if Bowe, Payne, Henshaw can all cover there. In truth I don't think anyone bar the incumbents will get a look in at centre until after the RWC. They might get the lesser pool games but Schmidt seems set on Henshaw Payne

Is he high Pro 12 level starter for outhalf? Yes
Is he mid to high end European club level starter for outhalf? I'd argue yes.
Is he 6Ns Test level starter for outhalf? No.

He'll be great cover for Sexton at Leinster from next season. His centre option is going to come under threat as the likes of Ringrose come through.

Especially with Madigan/Jones on the bench as well.

However, I think Zebo has the shirt nailed on. Defensively he has been extremely good, and we haven't had a chance to see him in attack. Trimble might be better as a direct running option in the current setup though.

Anyone trying to come in will have a serious ask displacing either winger

Overrated by who exactly? I haven't since anyone building Madigan up since 2013 when he was in supreme form.

Sin é wrote:Its Fitzgerald v Zebo for the left wing as they have a left boot, and its Bowe v Trimble for the right wing as they have a right boot.

Its Earls v Payne for the centre.

Trimble did a great job last year in the 6Ns (not so standout against Argentina), but there seems to be a big emphasis now in the backs being able to play every position. Trimble's kicking (though much improved) just isn't good enough to cover fullback (or cover there if the fullback has gone forward carrying the ball).

No, thats not actually true. Your basing that on earlier on in his career but if you look at his performances since Schmidt came in, his kicking is as good at the other wingers you're talking about. He's not going to cover fullback at all full time but as a winger he can easily cover fullback when the 15 has joined the line in a game situation. As a starter, there's nothing holding him back. No lack of versatility will stop him starting. He may not be used as a bench option.

Personally, if it's between Bowe and Trimble I would go with Trimble nine times out of ten. Bowe is more likely to pop up with an interception try or win the ball and score given a cross field kick but Trimble is much more influential in phase play, makes more yards in contact and makes a lot more offensive tackles which knock players back behind the gain line.

Btw, I'm moving this to the International section

Maybe he should be at a province where he can be a regular starter, that would help him and Ireland out a lot. Or does he remain at Leinster and just be a solid club player?

Hard to judge Madigan right now. He's coming on to replace Sexton each who has just played fantastic. Madigan looks the part and he kicks more points. Hard also when you're unsure if you're even the the # 1 at your club

Of the others on DK plays the JS system. You can't trust the others imo. We will dance around, have great runs, and lose. Need the new blood to come through. Hence the use of Payne kind of holding that spot. Don't want to go back to match reports talking about "brave Ireland".

Trimble comes back to the 14 shirt. Bowe and Zebo will also go to the RWC.

Madigan hasn't proved his game management abilities hence why he hasn't been able to usurp Gopperth, so Joe won't trust him to start for Ireland and prefer Jackson/Keatley should Sexton get injured. He does offer good impact and utility from the bench though, so he will definitely make the RWC squad.

The Great Aukster wrote:Trimble comes back to the 14 shirt. Bowe and Zebo will also go to the RWC.

Madigan hasn't proved his game management abilities hence why he hasn't been able to usurp Gopperth, so Joe won't trust him to start for Ireland and prefer Jackson/Keatley should Sexton get injured. He does offer good impact and utility from the bench though, so he will definitely make the RWC squad.

????

Let me get this right Aukster. A man called Matt O'Connor dictates that Madigan isn't up to game management - so he's handed the role to Gopperth?

O'Connor? The Leinster coach?

Right.........

You can slag off Matt O'Connors selections, but our very own St. Joe has already selected both Paddy Jackson and Ian Keatley ahead of Madigan at various times.

As a neutral who's only seen Madigan play in Europe and in a few Irish games I rate him highly.

He has the complete skill set to be a top draw fly half, he's also big and won't worry about the contact involved in top flight rugby either.

His only weakness is his game management, but that's kind of to be expected in someone who's young and not a regular starter. Sexton is a bit older then him and I think he was a late(ish) bloomer too (mid-late 20's).

I would take Madigan at Harlequins as Nick Evans back up in a heart beat.

Madigan will be 26 on Saturday, Sexton is 29 and was much further along internationally at the same age.

Notch wrote:You can slag off Matt O'Connors selections, but our very own St. Joe has already selected both Paddy Jackson and Ian Keatley ahead of Madigan at various times.

Not my point. I say again, a man who has proven he has difficulty managing a game doesn't pick Madigan and picks Gopperth? It doesn't exactly prove the theory that Madigan would be out of his depth in the shiny, dancy, sleek, powerful, fast and inventive Leinster. O'Connor didn't even know how to utlilise Madigan's alternative, who despite his less than productive time with them, was still in my opinion a much better player than O'Connor's game management allowed even him to be.

So - we can 'slag off' Madigan and say that he can't even get onto the Leinster side, but that's not too much of a yardstick of greatness these days, is it? Good rugby can't even get a game with Leinster these days

yappysnap wrote:As a neutral who's only seen Madigan play in Europe and in a few Irish games I rate him highly.

As a neutral who's only seen Madigan play in Europe and in a few Irish games I do not especially rate him as a 10. He seems to have all the tricks without the understanding of when to use them. The higher the level of match, the more mistakes he seems to make while his tricks become less effective. For someone hailed as a fantastic goalkicker he seems to miss a lot of clutch kicks.

Of course I am an ex-forward. A roundhead not a cavalier. However I would not want my club to sign him.

VinceWLB wrote:I think so, Madigan is extremely overrated, you just have to look at the England game and how the momentum swung when Sexton came off, crazy stuff. Lucky Ireland had such a big margin.

Madigan hasnt been playing for his club at 10 so of course he looks rusty. That really is the biggest issue right now.

LondonTiger wrote:

yappysnap wrote:As a neutral who's only seen Madigan play in Europe and in a few Irish games I rate him highly.

As a neutral who's only seen Madigan play in Europe and in a few Irish games I do not especially rate him as a 10. He seems to have all the tricks without the understanding of when to use them. The higher the level of match, the more mistakes he seems to make while his tricks become less effective. For someone hailed as a fantastic goalkicker he seems to miss a lot of clutch kicks.

Of course I am an ex-forward. A roundhead not a cavalier. However I would not want my club to sign him.

While all the rest of your points are valid,this isn't,Madigan is a 90% plus kicker and has only had one poor kicking game in recent memory against Wasps.He has kicked important penalties for Ireland after coming off the bench and has been immaculate for Leinster.

What I've seen of Madigan he looks a classy 10, but he does seem to be very different to Sexton. It's very hard for a team to switch it's approach to suit a different type of play maker part way through a game. If Ireland are going to persist with him as Sexton's back up they all need to know what the plan B is.

Can they continue with him as back-up when he is not playing there regularly? With Sexton returning to Leinster will the situation for Madigan change much?

LondonTiger wrote:Can they continue with him as back-up when he is not playing there regularly? With Sexton returning to Leinster will the situation for Madigan change much?

Not if O'Connor's coaching team remain in situ. Even Sexton will have a tough time imposing himself. A lot of things to correct before Sexton or indeed Madigan can be expected to make an impact.

Yes Madigan is overrated. He's an inferior fly half to Gopperth and arguably Paddy Jackson and Keatley too and an inferior centre to Payne or Henshaw.

That said he's a handy utility man and on the bench on merit and nailed on for a RWC place. Excellent back up goal kicker too which makes him a really important player.

Trimble will have to fight for his spot but if he can recapture his form of last season I'd pick him ahead of Bowe on the right wing and it would be up to Bowe then to prove to Schmidt that he can contend for a place on the left or even centre, because he's not as potent out wide as he was a few years ago, although he's been solid in defence.

Well at least another individual pops into the 'Not Convinced About Bowe' camp.  I'll take the hit on Madigan to gain another member.  It's a bleak place still with no furniture as we await some feet stragglers

Now Bowe will score 4 Beauties against Scotland!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   It always happens.  Talk them down and they do the egg-in-face heroics the game after.

SecretFly wrote:Well at least another individual pops into the 'Not Convinced About Bowe' camp.

I think he's been good, and along with Zebo has done a job. But you can't ignore that he's not as consistant as he was and not regularly coming up with the big scores and attacking plays as in the past. Whether that's down to age/injury/fitness, tighter defences or finding his feet under schmidt or not is hard to say.

He's only produced top form in glimpes for Ulster too in recent years so I don't think its the latter.Saturday showed he's still able to pick great lines but maybe the legs and power to get through them aren't the same - that said it was an awesome tackle by Roberts.

Well.... it's not nice seeing some players slide down for whatever reasons.  But we all have to be as pragmatic as our Image these days.  The truth is we need something with more legs and power in Bowe's position if we're to get this stuttering Irish engine operating the way it's planned to do.

If we said it about D'Arcy, then I'm saying it now about Bowe.  His form isn't sufficient right now to be holding that role.  I've already pointed out others in the same boat, so I'm not picking distinctly on him.

But then who is to fully know what the hell is going on.  He might blast out of the blocks on Saturday and give us a full light show.  With this team, it's beginning to be like Kidney's - you never do really know.  You guess hard but you really don't know what actual form many of the players are in because there are so many rules and regulations containing their more instinctive games. And I continue to be unconvinced that the three 'bigger' Irish Provinces are all in a trench of bad form coincidently.
All I can go on though is what I see in the now in each game, and call it as I see it.

SecretFly wrote:Well.... it's not nice seeing some players slide down for whatever reasons.  But we all have to be as pragmatic as our Image these days.

Yes but we're not privvy to all the info - for me there is a difference if a players decline (a harsh term in this instance) is due to temporary or terminal reasons. D'arcy is 5 years older.

Remember BOD went through a real attacking drought after the 2007 RWC that lasted until the 2009 6N, when he produced maybe the best rugby of his career.

Bowe isn't an average player - he has more international tries than the rest of the wings put together and is a 2 time lions test winger, something very few Irish players have achieved. He doesn't need to prove he can score tries in big tests, only that he can still do it on a regular basis.

rodders wrote:

Bowe isn't an average player - he has more international tries than the rest of the wings put together and is a 2 time lions test winger, something very few Irish players have achieved. He doesn't need to prove he can score tries in big tests, only that he can still do it on a regular basis.

The Team is my one concern.  If Bowe regains more potent form, if he catches cleanly more! (sorry but always a big issue with me about him) then I'll be over the moon and "welcome back Bowe!!! - where ya been so long???"
But again, reputation and longevity doesn't get you a ticket on the team (or shouldn't) if you're below your peak performance levels.  The team should reflect highest form - From Within Schmidt's circle of hopefuls; I'm not simply saying keep changing to fit the guy in form in any given week - but Bowe and few others have had their time to prove they were in the zone form-wise.  So unless Schmidt is holding them back and holding them in - some of those boys need to give opportunities to some other players.

rodders wrote:

Bowe isn't an average player - he has more international tries than the rest of the wings put together and is a 2 time lions test winger, something very few Irish players have achieved. He doesn't need to prove he can score tries in big tests, only that he can still do it on a regular basis.

Some people are unable to look back beyond the last game. Bowe is on of our most potent try scorers ever. He has everything except pace. Superb player.

Do you not have to be rated to be overrated?

GunsGerms wrote:

rodders wrote:

Bowe isn't an average player - he has more international tries than the rest of the wings put together and is a 2 time lions test winger, something very few Irish players have achieved. He doesn't need to prove he can score tries in big tests, only that he can still do it on a regular basis.

Some people are unable to look back beyond the last game. Bowe is on of our most potent try scorers ever. He has everything except pace. Superb player.

??? Does that give him a ticket to the future?

Surprised at you of all analytical people for suggesting such a bunch of 'history' reasons why a player should still be picked.  You don't need to point out his history, I was there.

But he's way off his best form to date, Guns - if that's pace, then so be it.  It's also a dangerous degree of lack of confidence with balls in the air and crisp pass catching (despite our roving present reputation for being experts at it).  I'd relook again over games, as I know you do already, to find the issues.  

So, unless he's under orders like a bunch of others to keep a damper on true form, he's on my radar as a player that needs replacing until he finds better form.

SecretFly wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

rodders wrote:

Bowe isn't an average player - he has more international tries than the rest of the wings put together and is a 2 time lions test winger, something very few Irish players have achieved. He doesn't need to prove he can score tries in big tests, only that he can still do it on a regular basis.

Some people are unable to look back beyond the last game. Bowe is on of our most potent try scorers ever. He has everything except pace. Superb player.

??? Does that give him a ticket to the future?

No absolutely not. But every situation is different - I mean if Sexton has a bad game, which he did, do you drop him for Madigan or Keatley?

No - because you know if Sexton performs he's way better than the alternatives. Same with Sean O'Brien.

It's not disimilar with Bowe - we know he can produce things the alternatives can't, perhaps Trimble excepte, so its logical to persevere to a point....remember he was close to his best in the Autumn, which isn't that far away and he hasn't been any worse than some other players.

I don't agree with you there. Bowe's form since the last Lions tour has been poor. He was rushed back too early then. Having had an unbelievable free injury period and great form, he is now very injury prone and looks to have lost confidence a bit. I thought he was very poor in the autumn (but that could be down to how Schmidt seems to make good players look poor and poor players look good).

he misses catches, he virtually always catches with just the tips of his fingers (if successful!), and it's all too edgy. And now (perhaps orders) he chooses to mostly slap back rather than catch on those kick/chases. Again, I find that unsettling because it's inserting risk (intercept or mistaken knock-on) where a confident catch would have often placed us in very nice positions.

Sexton is playing centrally structured position. He plays bad and Schmidt keeps picking him because obviously neither he nor many of you have faith in Madigan.

Bowe is there for defending ability alone it seems - but wings in a conventional team are there to attack. We're not really a conventional team in much of what we do lately. Results sure - but the closeness of the wins suggests we might be better off getting back to a little convention to help us along.

Sin é wrote:I don't agree with you there. Bowe's form since the last Lions tour has been poor. He was rushed back too early then. Having had an unbelievable free injury period and great form, he is now very injury prone and looks to have lost confidence a bit. I thought he was very poor in the autumn (but that could be down to how Schmidt seems to make good players look poor and poor players look good).

So you what does that make PoM and PoC,I'd say most people would agree they've looked good under Schmidt.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:I don't agree with you there. Bowe's form since the last Lions tour has been poor. He was rushed back too early then. Having had an unbelievable free injury period and great form, he is now very injury prone and looks to have lost confidence a bit. I thought he was very poor in the autumn (but that could be down to how Schmidt seems to make good players look poor and poor players look good).

So you what does that make PoM and PoC,I'd say most people would agree they've looked good under Schmidt.

That makes POM and POC forwards who have always been top class ruck resourcers.

Sin é wrote:I don't agree with you there. Bowe's form since the last Lions tour has been poor. He was rushed back too early then. Having had an unbelievable free injury period and great form, he is now very injury prone and looks to have lost confidence a bit. I thought he was very poor in the autumn (but that could be down to how Schmidt seems to make good players look poor and poor players look good).

With back to back 6Ns titles, is there time to get Joe out and put Axel in before the RWC? I mean if Joe is going to keep making the side even more average. The couldn't score the most points, they couldn't even concede the most points.

Felt sorry for Zebo, he would have had a field-day against that Scottish winger, instead Luke sneaks in and gets the plaudits.

Joe has always said that Jackson is his backup 10, but he's been injured. Madigan is a bench player because he's versatile.

Trimble will have to fight his way into the team by showing good club form.

There's no secret formula to it.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Sin é wrote:I don't agree with you there. Bowe's form since the last Lions tour has been poor. He was rushed back too early then. Having had an unbelievable free injury period and great form, he is now very injury prone and looks to have lost confidence a bit. I thought he was very poor in the autumn (but that could be down to how Schmidt seems to make good players look poor and poor players look good).

With back to back 6Ns titles, is there time to get Joe out and put Axel in before the RWC?  I mean if Joe is going to keep making the side even more average. The couldn't score the most points, they couldn't even concede the most points.

Felt sorry for Zebo, he would have had a field-day against that Scottish winger, instead Luke sneaks in and gets the plaudits.

In fairness, the Axel (& Lam) coached players are the ones that are making all the teams of the tournament. You need to be twice as good as a Leinster player to make Joe's team.

Good to see Luke back, but Zebo got a raw deal there.

Sin é wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Sin é wrote:I don't agree with you there. Bowe's form since the last Lions tour has been poor. He was rushed back too early then. Having had an unbelievable free injury period and great form, he is now very injury prone and looks to have lost confidence a bit. I thought he was very poor in the autumn (but that could be down to how Schmidt seems to make good players look poor and poor players look good).

With back to back 6Ns titles, is there time to get Joe out and put Axel in before the RWC?  I mean if Joe is going to keep making the side even more average. The couldn't score the most points, they couldn't even concede the most points.

Felt sorry for Zebo, he would have had a field-day against that Scottish winger, instead Luke sneaks in and gets the plaudits.

In fairness, the Axel (& Lam) coached players are the ones that are making all the teams of the tournament. You need to be twice as good as a Leinster player to make Joe's team.

Good to see Luke back, but Zebo got a raw deal there.

Axel/Lam RWC Coaching ticket 2015, NZ watch out...

Mickado wrote:Joe has always said that Jackson is his backup 10, but he's been injured. Madigan is a bench player because he's versatile.

Trimble will have to fight his way into the team by showing good club form.

There's no secret formula to it.

So will Jackson now too, and Henry- thing is the backup 10s to Sexton have been a lot less impressive than the wingers and opensides.

Still backing all three to make the World Cup squad if fit!

Sexton needs a backup kicker....................... .................. to be playing on the same team alongside him.  Like Halfpenny.  Sexton doesn't need to be kicker and he's back to doubting himself there straight away when O'Gara is not around - who should now be conscripted in as Ireland's kicking coach to give Sexton security.

Those points missed, and seeing how his mind was fighting with itself again, is an unwelcome return to bad habits.  And it came so close to killing us off on Saturday.

Sexton doesn't need to kick.  Schmidt should have a backup ready instantly to take over when nerves are at him.  Kearney has a good enough kicking boot if my memory serves me right.  He should be dragged back into practice and be there to take over.

But it needs solving, and I'm serious that a way should be found to get O'Gara back and in as specialist kicking coach.

SecretFly wrote:Sexton needs a backup kicker....................... .................. to be playing on the same team alongside him.  Like Halfpenny.  Sexton doesn't need to be kicker and he's back to doubting himself there straight away when O'Gara is not around - who should now be conscripted in as Ireland's kicking coach to give Sexton security.

Those points missed, and seeing how his mind was fighting with itself again, is an unwelcome return to bad habits.  And it came so close to killing us off on Saturday.

Sexton doesn't need to kick.  Schmidt should have a backup ready instantly to take over when nerves are at him.  Kearney has a good enough kicking boot if my memory serves me right.  He should be dragged back into practice and be there to take over.

But it needs solving, and I'm serious that a way should be found to get O'Gara back and in as specialist kicking coach.

Just put ROG on the wing instead of Luke... kicking option sorted sorted.

The most solid and consistent goal kicker I think (and I'm very much open to correction here) is McFadden. His technique is very good, great accuracy and good distance. He also has a consistent timing and kicking routine. Can cover wing and centre positions.

Yeah, ROG would love that

But you could genuinely feel O'Gara's Racing influence fade away gradually the longer Sexton was in Irish camp. He needs constant mental calming there. Do we have a kicking coach at Ireland? If so who is it?

Now now Fly, don't be trashing Richie Murphy like that. Any player that he has been responsble for has been a high percentage kicker........ just wish sexton wouldn't take the stupidly overly long pause that's all.

The pauses are only half the issue - the pauses tell you he's in a frame of mind that might see him miss a few. It's the missing that will hit us hard going through this year.