Grand Slam Still On- And then What?

It's Super Saturday in the Six Nations, but it's also Super Saturday in the European Nations Cup Division 1A (also nicknamed the "Six Nations B").

The pick of the ties in a weekend that sees 4th placed Russia entertained 5th placed Portugal and relegation-threatened Germany travel to 3rd placed Spain is the Championship decider as Grand Slam chasing Georgia (on 17 points and 4 wins) take on Romania (on 15 points and 3 wins) in Bucharest.

For those of you that don't know, the trophy is awarded yearly on your one year results, but relegation is decided by amalgamating two years results so the bottom team after everyone has played home and away is relegated.

Georgia won the trophy in 2014 and 2013, completing a clean sweep in 2014 (not sure if they call it a Grand Slam), and going unbeaten in 2013 too, although they drew with Romania.

Which brings me to an interesting point. Georgia are unbeaten in Europe for 3 years. Romania have lost two in 14, away in Georgia and Russia. Both will be in the World Cup later this year.

Looking at their groups, Georgia have been grouped with New Zealand, Argentina, Tonga and Namibia. Could they potentially qualify from that group? You might think not, but looking at the IRB World Rankings, Georgia are as far behind Argentina as Argentina are behind England. If you believe Argentina could beat England on neutral ground (and they weren't a million miles off in 2011), then you have to believe Georgia could beat Argentina? And if not Argentina, why not Tonga? Or Namibia? New Zealand would sweep all teams before them, but if Georgia could pick up a couple of wins, then it may come down to bonus points and they could sneak through.

Romania, on the other hand, are basically already in the Six Nations, with Ireland, France, Italy and, um, Canada in their pool. Although they're some way behind France in the rankings, they are above Canada and closer to Italy than Georgia are to Argentina, or say South Africa are to New Zealand. Could Romania potentially knock off Six Nations opposition and finish in an automatic qualification place? Could they do the unthinkable and beat France or even Ireland to qualify for the quarter finals?

If Georgia were to make the quarter-finals and Romania were to beat Italy, there would be even more clamour for the two Eastern European powerhouses to be involved in top level competition. Italy got some big wins in the 90s against Five Nations opposition, but they were not in competitions. In the three world cups in the 90s, they won just 2 games, against USA and Argentina.

The "How?" would still persist in that you can't just turn 6 Nations into 8 Nations and move on, and this would indeed lock out Russia, Spain, Portugal, Germany and Belgium, but surely it's time for these tier 2 European nations to get more exposure?

The great pity with Romania is that just before the revolution, they had a side to match most in Europe, particularly at home. Certainly better than most of the Italian sides of the past 15 years. Powerful, forward-oriented and extremely well-drilled.

Ever since then, with some leaving, some dying in the cause of freedom and the whole structure crumbling, Romania are basically cannon-fodder for the big guns and even the medium-sized guns these days. Can't see them doing anything but scrapping with (and probably losing to) Canada for the honour of coming second-last.

Georgia are more interesting. Their curve has been an upward one and while I'd be extremely surprised to see them beat Argentina and they have nil chance at all of course against the All Blacks, I'd expect them to overpower Namibia and I'd make them almost evens against Tonga. Remembering what Tonga did to France in 2011, it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that Argentina have a nightmare, Georgia play out of their skins and nick a result. Unlikely but not impossible.

As for granting them more exposure, I'd like to see the top two among the second-tier nations granted an autumn international against at least one of the 6 Nations crew every year. For example, you could have Georgia against Ireland one year and Romania against Scotland, to be followed the next year by England against Georgia and Wales against Romania. Meanwhile, two of the South Seas Islands nations could take a fixture against the other 2 members of the 6N. That would vary the diet a bit from the endless Aus, NZ, SA November merry-go-round, which lost its lustre and its sense of occasion years ago.

Play them. If they need/want more exposure - play them.

Before you start asking for them to be let into a top contest that is - yes - based on deep deep tradition - play them outside it. Give them the exposure.

Ireland have played a number of Tier 2 sides in the last few years. Last Autumn it was Georgia. Did the other big sides play any Tier 2 sides recently?

I say play them first - then let's talk about extending the 6N.

Agree SF

I would have no problem seeing the Home Nations play 1 game an Autumn each against the likes of Georgia and the PI's, I would say that any team who is seeking to play 4 internationals as England did last year should be made to do so

Georgia are a good team, I'd fancy them at home against Italy and many of the Scottish sides of recent years. I'd love for a situation to emerge where between Argentina/Tonga/Georgia they all win one lose one against each other, would really highlight the closing of the gap

SecretFly wrote:Play them.  If they need/want more exposure - play them.

Before you start asking for them to be let into a top contest that is - yes - based on deep deep tradition - play them outside it.  Give them the exposure.

Ireland have played a number of Tier 2 sides in the last few years.  Last Autumn it was Georgia.  Did the other big sides play any Tier 2 sides recently?

I say play them first - then let's talk about extending the 6N.

Technically yes, as the PI teams are classed as Tier 2.

Who's it down to then Fly? The unions? Or should World Rugby enforce it?

Right, I think we need to get the best teams three really good test matches in the Autumn International window every year in between World Cups. So the best teams on aggregate over the previous 4 years get this schedule

If the top two performing sides in the B competition get two tests against Six Nations opposition in every Autumn window for a World Cup Cycle, this would only need all Six Nations to commit to one match against a Tier 2 European nation in two out of every three test windows. Their remaining test every year should be against touring Pacific Islanders.

We could have them with a schedule like this example over the three-week autumn window;

Year 1

Week 1
England vs Georgia
Wales vs Romania
Week 2
Ireland vs Georgia
Romania vs Tonga
Week 3
Italy vs Romania
Georgia vs Samoa

Year 2

Week 1
England vs Romania
Scotland vs Georgia
Week 2
Romania vs Samoa
Georgia vs Fiji
Week 3
France ve Romania
Italy vs Georgia

Year 3

Week 1
Ireland vs Romania
Wales vs Georgia
Week 2
Scotland vs Romania
Georgia vs Tonga
Week 3
France vs Georgia
Romania vs Fiji

Year 4

Rugby World Cup

Then in the net cycle repeat that schedule for the best performing sides in the Six Nations B over the past four year. That means we get to see exactly how these teams fare against Six Nations opposition and the Six Nations teams can still organise two or three test matches against SH opponents every autumn.

The major down side is the potential reduction in test matches for the Pacific Islanders, USA, Japan and Canada BUT I firmly believe it should be the responsibility of the European NH teams to develop the European NH teams.

I believe that there is potential for the PI teams to tour USA/Canada more as well.

Love it, Notch. Excellent suggestion, which is why World Rugby will probably have nothing to do with it. Do the global game a lot of good if they did.

Notch wrote:That means we get to see exactly how these teams fare against Six Nations opposition

Problem being, the stronger Six Nations sides will have to put out understrength, "non-capped XVs" or some of these games will be walkovers. With that situation you're not really seeing how they fare against Six Nations opposition (except maybe Italy and Scotland who don't have the depth anyway). Saxons and Wolfhounds would comfortably beat most of these sides.

I'm not against it in principle (these sides need more games), but it won't really be, say, England v Romania in real terms.

(As gets repeated every time in these threads) it's a shame the Churchill Cup is no more.

robbo277 wrote:Who's it down to then Fly? The unions? Or should World Rugby enforce it?

Unions should do it if they genuinely want to give these Tier 2 sides a boost.  If they won't do it themselves then perhaps World Rugby should get involved.  I hate doctrine though - I much prefer that if the idea is in your head then the idea might be in the heads of the Unions you mention in terms of the 6N.

I say the starting point is actually playing these sides rather than any Union or group of Unions suggesting what should happen to the 6N.  As I've said, Ireland have played a number of Tier 2 sides in the last few years.  Unions must play these sides before suggesting where we take them in terms of a combined Formal Competition.

The Practical before the theory as it were.

Grand Slam still on for the Scots....the inverted version.

Cardiff Dave wrote:Grand Slam still on for the Scots....the inverted version.

I truly appreciate the spirit of that post, Dave.  But why do we do this?

Had that been an Irish poster talking about Wales, there would be comments of 'arrogance' and 'tasteless'.  Had it been an English poster talking about Ireland, the Irish would be jabbing back about 'taunting bastards'.  

But the Scots.  They should enjoy the 'fun' of laughs at their expense from the Top Drawer boys?

I've become uneasy about that - not because I don't think the Scots can take it in the banterish spirit it's meant but because a lot of us 'Top Drawer' fans get very snarky when the banter gets a little ripe between ourselves.  I'm not so sure we should expect the Scots to smile though it when we can find it quite hard ourselves.

SecretFly wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:Grand Slam still on for the Scots....the inverted version.

I truly appreciate the spirit of that post, Dave.  But why do we do this?

Had that been an Irish poster talking about Wales, there would be comments of 'arrogance' and 'tasteless'.  Had it been an English poster talking about Ireland, the Irish would be jabbing back about 'taunting bastards'.  

But the Scots.  They should enjoy the 'fun' of laughs at their expense from the Top Drawer boys?

I've become uneasy about that - not because I don't think the Scots can take it in the banterish spirit it's meant but because a lot of us 'Top Drawer' fans get very snarky when the banter gets a little ripe between ourselves.  I'm not so sure we should expect the Scots to smile though it when we can find it quite hard ourselves.

Coz it's about having a laugh, taking the pi$$, a wind up just for fun, etc. That's all.
Why some posters on here get so hoity toity is beyond me.

The Autumn internationals are for the rest of the world touring Europe, not Europe playing Europe.

You've got the 6 sides in the 6 nations. Assuming 3 games each you have 18 slots. If you give the touring teams 3 games each you can only fit in 6 teams. But we have to fit in the 4 tier one nations, three PI teams, Canada and USA. oh and Japan. So we need to add in another 4 teams. Romania, Georgia, Russia and Spain?

That would cover all the games but there would be no space for Europeans to play Europeans. If you play a European side in the autumn you're shafting another team from outside Europe (and it's not going to be one of the big ones).

That's my opinion anyway.

That slot is during the 6 nations. I'd prefer a change up there, a four yearly competition that merges the top two tiers perhaps.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Coz it's about having a laugh, taking the pi$$, a wind up just for fun, etc. That's all.
Why some posters on here get so hoity toity is beyond me.

There you go.  Snap!  Case proven.  The Scots should laugh - but the rest of us - snap!