Buchanan or De Jesus - who was Duran's best scalp at Lightweight, and who wins?

Afternoon, gents.

'Tis a shame we never got to see Ken Buchanan and Esteban De Jesus face off to help decide who was the second best Lightweight of the seventies behind Roberto Duran, often cited as the greatest Lightweight of all eras, not just his own. Both held the world title, or at least portions of it, and both lost them to the incredible Panamanian.

It's been crossing my mind a little recently - just what was Duran's finest accomplishment as a Lightweight? His coronation in 1972 against Buchanan, where he relieved the Scot of his WBA and lineal titles, or his 1978 unification win over Puerto Rico's WBC champion DeJesus, who'd been something of a bogey man to Duran in the past? Or another, simpler way of looking at it - who out of Buchanan and DeJesus deserves to be remembered as the better fighter, and can we possibly make a prediction of how a silver medal play-off fight between them might have gone?

Just some basic points to consider, as it depends on how you rate fighters (and we all have our own particular methods):

*Buchanan beat a better fighter to win his title (Ismael Laguna) than De Jesus did to win his (Guts Ishimatsu).

*However, De Jesus was more competitive with Duran than Buchanan was. Game and far from disgraced though he was, Buchanan was never really in the fight against Duran, for me. De Jesus beat Duran (flooring him, too) fair and square in their first, non-title bout in 1972, and fought on largely equal terms in a thriller in their 1974 rematch for Duran's WBA title, De Jesus eventually being chopped down in the eleventh round of a classic where he'd again had Duran on the deck early doors. Admittedly, he barely touched Duran in their third and final bout, but he certainly posed 'Manos de Piedra' a lot more problems than Buchanan did.

*Both men beat a similar amount of quality. De Jesus has the Duran win to boost his credentials in this department, but you can quibble that by saying it was an unmotivated Duran in their first fight, still coming down from the high of his Madison Square Garden win over Buchanan - remember, Buchanan was so highly thought of in the States that he'd been the Associated Press' 'International Fighter of the Year' for 1971, and was considered right up there amongst the best fighters on the planet at the time, irrespective of weight. While De Jesus beat Duran, it could be argued that, collectively, his other top wins over Ishimatsu, Ray Lampkin x 2, Alfonso 'Peppermint' Frazer and Edwin Viruet are marginally lesser in quality than Buchanan's, which read Laguna x 2, Jim Watt, Carlos Ortiz, Donato Paduano, Ruben Navarro and Carlos Hernandez. This is taking in to account not just the names, but also the respective conditions of these men when Buchanan and De Jesus beat them, of course.

*In their world championship years or at leat in or around their peaks, it could be argued that De Jesus' loss column is less damaging than Buchanan's, as during these years of his career the only Lightweight who had the wood on him was the great Duran himself. His other losses to the likes of Antonio Cervantes and Saoul Mamby came in title fights in the next division up, Light-Welterweight. On the other hand, Buchanan crucially lost a decision to another De Jesus victim in 1975, the aforementioned Guts Ishimatsu who dominated the Scot late on after shutting one of his eyes, as well as being outscored by Northern Irishman Charlie Nash soon after.

To play Devil's Advocate, though - while De Jesus' losses to Cervantes and Mamby were at 140 rather than 135, they were both one-sided (certainly more one-sided than any loss Buchanan suffered outside of the Duran fight) to the extent where you'd have to doubt that the results were solely down to weight, and Buchanan's loss to Nash was widely disputed - even Harry Mullan, a countryman of Nash and one of his greatest fans, scored the bout in favour of Buchanan.

*As for their skills and styles and how they match up - well both were classy boxers. Buchanan the more stand-off, classical kind with textbook technique and discipline. He perhaps relied a bit more on ring IQ than De Jesus, who was a bit quicker and who had a bit more of an adventurous, nasty streak in him. Buchanan perhaps the better defensive boxer, De Jesus the more accomplished offensive one, but when it comes to who'd win between them I'd drawing a bit of a blank right now.

Had it not been for Duran, either one of these could potentially have dominated the Lightweights for half a decade and established themselves amongst the greatest of all the champions at 135. But as it turned out, instead I'm asking who deserves to be remembered as Roberto's best victim / finest win in his own Lightweight pomp?

Hopefully plenty to touch upon in this one. Cheers lads.

Nice one Chris, Duran's best two LW conquests without a doubt. Its a tricky question you pose as bother marvellous fighters and would've excelled in any era. As for the match-up a little biased but I fancy Buchanan's superior height and reach along with his boxing brain to eke out a decision. Esteban De Jesus will have his moments without a doubt and although a slick operator he could bang..

The fight was mooted I believe if Buchanan hadn't dropped a decision again the Jap (cant remember his name) in Tokyo.

Overall probably best scalp is De Jesus but I fancied Buchanan to edge him in a match up.

Cheers, Rodders

Ken beats him on points win.

De Jesus however makes it hard and gets in Ken's face. If Ken can keep him away at a distance I think he wins.

I think tho if there was a surprise ko it would come from De Jesus I think he hit harder then Ken but the skills go to Buchanan who was also very tough. He faired much better then De Jesus did against Duran a Duran in his tremendous prime.

This fight should have happened

How did they miss each other.

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Ken beats him on points win.

De Jesus however makes it hard and gets in Ken's face. If Ken can keep him away at a distance I think he wins.

I think tho if there was a surprise ko it would come from De Jesus I think he hit harder then Ken but the skills go to Buchanan who was also very tough. He faired much better then De Jesus did against Duran a Duran in his tremendous prime.

This fight should have happened

How did they miss each other.

The Japanese fighter put a spanner in the works.

Cheers, Rodders

I have commented on this fight with friends and all without exception would pick Buchanan but all concede that Estabans left hook would be a major factor.

If he gets past Ken's left jab that is.

Ah Chris, nice article but I’d be surprised if anyone can make a definitive case that one would beat the other, or that either stands out strikingly as THE win on Duran’s CV.

It’s something I have given some thought to and I have never really persuaded myself which is the better win on Duran’s ledger, nor that either would win a head to head with any certainty.

On a personal note, I think Duran would have found the De Jesus victory sweeter.  I recall reading that Duran cried and punched the dressing room walls after the De Jesus defeat, also he faced criticism that he struggled with quicker, more skilled boxers.  To avenge that loss and silence some of his critics must have enhanced its significance to the man himself.

However, Buchanan was a more important win in terms of its wider significance, and perhaps Ken was seen as a tougher fight at the time.  Buchanan was more suited to Duran’s style though, to say tailor made would be inaccurate, and I’m surprised you haven’t mentioned the controversy surrounding “that punch”, which did taint the victory a little even though Duran was winning relatively comfortably.  

I think at a push I would say that Buchanan has the slight edge for being the better win.  Reading about his career from Duran’s own perspective, he always had an excuse ready for every occasion.  That said, I think Duran wasn’t focuses and believed he would cruise to a win in the first De Jesus fight, had he focused he might have been able to get the win, regardless of De Jesus style.  If you take that first loss away it draws your attention more firmly to Buchanan being the stand out win on his ledger.

Head to head is just a pick ‘em for me.  They both had attributes going for them but neither had an outstanding tool or advantage that could make me say with any certainty that they would have their hand raised at the end.  If I was pushed to put a fiver on it I’s go with Buchanan, but mainly because he was from these shores… so based on my usual betting results De Jesus via a one sided beating.

Cheers, Rodders and OneTwo. Good points.

Rodders, interesting that you mention Ken's height as a possible determining factor in a how a fight between him and De Jesus might have gone. I suspect a similar thing.

I've watched De Jesus' attempts at the Light-Welter title a couple of times now and in both cases he was facing guys who were on the taller side for that weight class, Cervantes first time out and then Mamby second. In both fights the height was a real problem for De Jesus and he just couldn't seem to get his head around how to go about negating it.

If you watch his fight against Ishimatsu (if you want to see what a slick, all-round quality boxer De Jesus was as a Lightweight at his best then I'd recommend that fight to anyone, a really strong performance) and then compare it to his ones against Cervantes and Mamby, he looks like a totally different fighter. Smooth and hard to hit against Ishimatsu, who was more his kind of size and weight, but really crude and repetitive against the taller guys who he couldn't get to or control the range against.

In the fights with Cervantes and Mamby he's reduced to leaping in with big shots over and over again rather than jabbing his way in, countering and showing slick defence even when unloading like he did against Ishimatsu or Duran. Certainly none of the slick and subtle moves you might expect from him, aside from the odd round here or there.

On that basis taller guys seemed to present a really difficult puzzle for De Jesus to solve. Think I might agree with you that Buchanan would be well-placed to take a decision against him had they met in their primes, albeit it'd be a lot more competitive than the Cervantes and Mamby fights (I suppose Esteban's drug use might have been contributing by the time he fought Mamby, but no real excuses for the Cervantes fight).

Yep, good points DuransHorse. As you've touched on, I've not mentioned the finishing shot against Buchanan because I think focussing on it too much can lead to some forgetting how on top Duran was throughout the fight. By the letter of the law, you can argue that Duran perhaps should have been disqualified, but if he had have been it would have gone down as a pretty unsatisfactory result and left a bit of a bitter taste. No way it should have been ruled as a TKO against Ken either, mind you, but I've never bought in to the idea that Duran did it because the fight was sliding in Buchanan's favour or that he lucked out on the night. Duran was in control all the way, for me.

Agree that Duran would have got a lot more personal satisfaction out of the De Jesus wins, though. Duran had an intense dislike towards Puerto Ricans and it bothered him that from '72 to '74 Gregorio Benitez (and we know how disdainful Duran would be years later to Gregorio's son Wilfred!) was selling his charge De Jesus as the 'real' Lightweight champion of the world on the basis of that non-title win De Jesus had over Roberto. Even after their second fight De Jesus' team still complained that the heat at ringside had been partly responsible for his loss there (cobblers), so aside from the first Leonard fight I doubt Duran ever felt as pleased with himself after a victory as he did after the third and final fight with De Jesus, because he completely outclassed him in that one and took his belt off him for good measure as well.

I'm edging towards Buchanan beating De Jesus had they ever boxed, but perhaps also towards De Jesus ranking a shade higher in the overall career stakes and being an ever so slightly more significant win in the context of Duran's career and greatness. But it's rizzla-thin.

Very good question and for me has two different answers; De Jesus is the better scalp but Buchanan would have beaten him.

With Buchanan it's fair to say that his three premier victims Ortiz, Hernandez and Laguna had very little left in the tank when he faced them especially the former two who were a good four or five years past their bests. Ortiz of the three is the greater by some distance and for my money is one of the most under rated of all boxers, staggering record but he was so far over that hill it leaves the less talented Laguna as Ken's top win. A close fight which Buchanan pulled out the bag in the final rounds behind his classic left jab and hurting the champion despite being a noted non-puncher.

With De Jesus it's the first two fights with Duran that define his career, being the first and only to beat him at lightweight as well as I believe the only one to drop him before Tommy Hearns (could and probably am wrong). Won a portion of the title against Buchanan's conqueror Ishimatsu and defended it against so opposition before being on the receiving end of Duran's magnum opus.

I'll probably contradict myself here but De Jesus in giving Duran more trouble and beating Ishimatsu makes him the better lightweight in my opinion but doesn't have the stand out wins on paper that Buchanan possesses nor was he ever THE lightweight champion and was always in the shadow of Duran. Buchanan for a brief time looked set to carry the mantle of Ortiz but for me it's a win that is vastly over rated which is understandable for a British fighter I suppose.

On the topic, is anyone else eagerly awaiting the movie "Hands of Stone"?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1781827/

Thanks for the response, Hammersmith.

To clarify - which of Buchanan's wins are you saying is vastly overrated? Laguna or Ortiz? I don't think the Ortiz win is really highly thought of enough to be overrated and I think most see it for what it was; a great name but one who was over the hill pretty badly (and down on his luck outside the ring) by 1972. Haven't seen that many raving about it and personally I'd say Buchanan's win in a high-quality encounter against a young, strong future champion in Watt is a more impressive scalp in that context, even though Watt wasn't yet the finished article at that time.

Don't think Laguna was really showing any signs of fading before Buchanan beat him that first time and like you say it's certainly Ken's best win, a real cracker. Oddly enough, Laguna was Duran's idol in his teen years. Knowing Duran's spiteful streak it probably inspired him to do the most emphatic number on Buchanan that he could.

Nevermind who Duran's best win was or who was the better all-round fighter between Buchanan and De Jesus - now I'm asking myself in my head which was Duran's greatest performance as a Lightweight, the first Buchanan fight or the third one against De Jesus? Against Buchanan he showed plenty of skill but also that ferocity and indomitable nature which was his hallmark, whereas against De Jesus it was a boxing masterclass and his best defensive showing, which still had a knockout as the icing on the cake. Again, there's not much to split them.

I'd probably have to go with the final De Jesus fight as there was no monkey business with the finish and it showed the side of Duran which gets too easily forgotten and underrated, but the Buchanan performance was still a monumental one from Roberto as well.

Something tells me the film is going to be a dud, DuransHorse!

88Chris05 wrote:Thanks for the response, Hammersmith.

To clarify - which of Buchanan's wins are you saying is vastly overrated? Laguna or Ortiz? I don't think the Ortiz win is really highly thought of enough to be overrated and I think most see it for what it was; a great name but one who was over the hill pretty badly (and down on his luck outside the ring) by 1972. Haven't seen that many raving about it and personally I'd say Buchanan's win in a high-quality encounter against a young, strong future champion in Watt is a more impressive scalp in that context, even though Watt wasn't yet the finished article at that time.

Don't think Laguna was really showing any signs of fading before Buchanan beat him that first time and like you say it's certainly Ken's best win, a real cracker. Oddly enough, Laguna was Duran's idol in his teen years. Knowing Duran's spiteful streak it probably inspired him to do the most emphatic number on Buchanan that he could.

Nevermind who Duran's best win was or who was the better all-round fighter between Buchanan and De Jesus - now I'm asking myself in my head which was Duran's greatest performance as a Lightweight, the first Buchanan fight or the third one against De Jesus? Against Buchanan he showed plenty of skill but also that ferocity and indomitable nature which was his hallmark, whereas against De Jesus it was a boxing masterclass and his best defensive showing, which still had a knockout as the icing on the cake. Again, there's not much to split them.

I'd probably have to go with the final De Jesus fight as there was no monkey business with the finish and it showed the side of Duran which gets too easily forgotten and underrated, but the Buchanan performance was still a monumental one from Roberto as well.

Something tells me the film is going to be a dud, DuransHorse!

Duran was quoted a few times as saying the Buchanan fight was personal on those grounds.

I am hopeful for "Hand of Stone" on the basis that every once in a while we get a truly great boxing biopic on the big screen. De Niro as Arcel could be brilliant. I'm not sure on the Director or Édgar Ramirez, but I quite like that they are low key and not such mainstream names so I guess we'll have to wait and see.

... The scene where he knocks out the horse will be worth the cinema ticket on its own.

V2 need to check site functionality. Clearly the 'thread alert' isn't working... You can't normally type the word Buchanan in a thread without drawing the captain out of hiding.

Big fan of ken, one of the finest from these shores but if I'm honest I'm a bigger fan of de Jesus. Cracking little fighter. Gave a prime duran all sorts of trouble. With no duran around we might well be talking about de Jesus as an ATG lightweight... Though you could maybe say the same about Buchanan... And countless other fighters around in the eras of all time greats.

It's just an eye test really as de Jesus doesn't have the great wins, and given the circumstances and performance you could say Buchanan was the better win/performance than either of the de Jesus wins

milkyboy wrote:... The scene where he knocks out the horse will be worth the cinema ticket on its own.

V2 need to check site functionality. Clearly the 'thread alert' isn't working... You can't normally type the word Buchanan in a thread without drawing the captain out of hiding.

Big fan of ken, one of the finest from these shores but if I'm honest I'm a bigger fan of de Jesus. Cracking little fighter. Gave a prime duran all sorts of trouble. With no duran around we might well be talking about de Jesus as an ATG lightweight... Though you could maybe say the same about Buchanan... And countless other fighters around in the eras of all time greats.

It's just an eye test really as de Jesus doesn't have the great wins, and given the circumstances and performance you could say Buchanan was the better win/performance than either of the de Jesus wins

They may also include the training session in the build up to the Carlos Palomino fight when a heckler, along with mothers and children at ringside, got an eyeful of the Duran crown jewels along with "Pipino Cuevas can suck my c*%k!" Ah, so many great moments I fear will be left on the editors cutting room floor.

When Roberto Duran was training to fight Carlos Palomino at Madison Square Garden, he worked out at Howard Albert's gym, an old factory loft in the Garment Center, just a few blocks from the new Garden.

It was summertime, and sweltering, and every Latino worker in the garment area-- and their families-- would go to watch their hero train at lunchtime.

The gym was like a steam room, and jammed cheek-to-jowl with the adoring. . They pressed so close; they barely left Duran enough room to do his floor exercises. And then he went into the ring to shadow box.

Spanning what looked like a crowded subway, you could see chests swell and faces full of pride. Plump mothers holding babies in their arms stood right at the
ring apron, while their little children looked up saucer-eyed at this god.

In the midst of all of this, somebody in the back--unbelievably! -- kept yelling at Duran in Spanish: "PIPINO CUEVAS WILL KILL YOU!

Duran paid him no mind and continued to shadow box. But the heckler was relentless: "PIPINO CUEVAS WILL KILL YOU! "PIPINO CUEVAS WILL KILL YOU!

Finally, Duran fixed a glare at him, stretched as far over the ropes as he could--just above the glowing faces of mothers and infants--and yanked down his trunks, grabbed his nuts, and roared in Spanish: "PIPINO CUEVAS CAN SUCK MY ****!

Copied from elsewhere

ShahenshahG wrote:When Roberto Duran was training to fight Carlos Palomino at Madison Square Garden, he worked out at Howard Albert's gym, an old factory loft in the Garment Center, just a few blocks from the new Garden.

It was summertime, and sweltering, and every Latino worker in the garment area-- and their families-- would go to watch their hero train at lunchtime.

The gym was like a steam room, and jammed cheek-to-jowl with the adoring. . They pressed so close; they barely left Duran enough room to do his floor exercises. And then he went into the ring to shadow box.

Spanning what looked like a crowded subway, you could see chests swell and faces full of pride. Plump mothers holding babies in their arms stood right at the
ring apron, while their little children looked up saucer-eyed at this god.

In the midst of all of this, somebody in the back--unbelievably! -- kept yelling at Duran in Spanish: "PIPINO CUEVAS WILL KILL YOU!

Duran paid him no mind and continued to shadow box. But the heckler was relentless: "PIPINO CUEVAS WILL KILL YOU! "PIPINO CUEVAS WILL KILL YOU!

Finally, Duran fixed a glare at him, stretched as far over the ropes as he could--just above the glowing faces of mothers and infants--and yanked down his trunks, grabbed his nuts, and roared in Spanish: "PIPINO CUEVAS CAN SUCK MY ****!

Copied from elsewhere

That's my favourite Duran moment Shah. It even beats the Leonard victory for me!

My favourite Duran moments are rounds ten and eleven of the Barkley fight. That classic bit of disdainful, arrogant Duran swagger in the tenth as he casually moves his head around four or five successive Barkley jabs (with his feet totally planted) and then whacks Barkley back with a counter right of his own at the end of the move, and then that combination to put Barkley over in the eleventh along with that nonchalant walk to the neutral corner afterwards.

Still one of the most spellbinding fights ever for me.

Aye. Something of the madness appeals to me.

88Chris05 wrote:My favourite Duran moments are rounds ten and eleven of the Barkley fight. That classic bit of disdainful, arrogant Duran swagger in the tenth as he casually moves his head around four or five successive Barkley jabs (with his feet totally planted) and then whacks Barkley back with a counter right of his own at the end of the move, and then that combination to put Barkley over in the eleventh along with that nonchalant walk to the neutral corner afterwards.

Still one of the most spellbinding fights ever for me.

Duran fought a brilliant fight overall, Chris.  Possible some of his finest moments in the ring and the 10th and 11th exude Duran's nature and arrogance, absolutely love it!

On the downside there is a question mark regarding how good Barkley really was, maybe he tried to hard and fought with too much emotion on Moore's behalf, and of course the judges result didn't do it justice either.  Even Barkley admitted that Duran was great that night.

I think to beat Duran you often needed to take something from him before you entered the ring ( Benitez possibly did that best ).  I think Duran had a psychological advantage over Barkley even before they slipped through the ropes and from then on it was an uphill battle.

You might want to watch Duran vs Pazienza 1 and camacho 1 if you havent already. Both painful and intriguing to watch

DuransHorse wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:When Roberto Duran was training to fight Carlos Palomino at Madison Square Garden, he worked out at Howard Albert's gym, an old factory loft in the Garment Center, just a few blocks from the new Garden.

It was summertime, and sweltering, and every Latino worker in the garment area-- and their families-- would go to watch their hero train at lunchtime.

The gym was like a steam room, and jammed cheek-to-jowl with the adoring. . They pressed so close; they barely left Duran enough room to do his floor exercises. And then he went into the ring to shadow box.

Spanning what looked like a crowded subway, you could see chests swell and faces full of pride. Plump mothers holding babies in their arms stood right at the
ring apron, while their little children looked up saucer-eyed at this god.

In the midst of all of this, somebody in the back--unbelievably! -- kept yelling at Duran in Spanish: "PIPINO CUEVAS WILL KILL YOU!

Duran paid him no mind and continued to shadow box. But the heckler was relentless: "PIPINO CUEVAS WILL KILL YOU! "PIPINO CUEVAS WILL KILL YOU!

Finally, Duran fixed a glare at him, stretched as far over the ropes as he could--just above the glowing faces of mothers and infants--and yanked down his trunks, grabbed his nuts, and roared in Spanish: "PIPINO CUEVAS CAN SUCK MY ****!

Copied from elsewhere

That's my favourite Duran moment Shah.  It even beats the Leonard victory for me!  

You pick your user name around your favourite fighter, you have any number of amazing sporting moments to choose from, or a wide variety of character stories. Your favourite moment is a cheap throwaway line you can hear 100 times any night of the week in a pub of your choice... Frequently with tackle out.

milkyboy wrote:

DuransHorse wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:When Roberto Duran was training to fight Carlos Palomino at Madison Square Garden, he worked out at Howard Albert's gym, an old factory loft in the Garment Center, just a few blocks from the new Garden.

It was summertime, and sweltering, and every Latino worker in the garment area-- and their families-- would go to watch their hero train at lunchtime.

The gym was like a steam room, and jammed cheek-to-jowl with the adoring. . They pressed so close; they barely left Duran enough room to do his floor exercises. And then he went into the ring to shadow box.

Spanning what looked like a crowded subway, you could see chests swell and faces full of pride. Plump mothers holding babies in their arms stood right at the
ring apron, while their little children looked up saucer-eyed at this god.

In the midst of all of this, somebody in the back--unbelievably! -- kept yelling at Duran in Spanish: "PIPINO CUEVAS WILL KILL YOU!

Duran paid him no mind and continued to shadow box. But the heckler was relentless: "PIPINO CUEVAS WILL KILL YOU! "PIPINO CUEVAS WILL KILL YOU!

Finally, Duran fixed a glare at him, stretched as far over the ropes as he could--just above the glowing faces of mothers and infants--and yanked down his trunks, grabbed his nuts, and roared in Spanish: "PIPINO CUEVAS CAN SUCK MY ****!

Copied from elsewhere

That's my favourite Duran moment Shah.  It even beats the Leonard victory for me!  

You pick your user name around your favourite fighter, you have any number of amazing sporting moments to choose from, or a wide variety of character stories. Your favourite moment is a cheap throwaway line you can hear 100 times any night of the week in a pub of your choice... Frequently with tackle out.

You need to understand that I’m a southerner and I have lived a very sheltered life, Milky. My heavy nights out are at Brown’s or various other overpriced Bistro’s, where after a shared starter and three courses, I sup a cocktail or two before getting home by 11:30pm. One has never been to the Oyster and if invited I would assume it was called the Oyster due to Oyster being its flagship dish. If things get a bit tense in venues I frequent it's usually because they don't accept American Express or Diners Club.

For me, this is about imagining how the tension builds and builds in Duran’s head, getting more and more frustrated whilst trying to ignore the heckler... until exploding in a comically violent eruption of trouser dropping. Duran being Duran, that was the only way he could articulate his emotions without laying the guy ( or his horse if he had one ) out.

It’s the simple things in life that amuse me Milky!

To specify Chris I meant both the Ortiz and Laguna wins are bit over rated for me, brilliant as Buchanan was as was De Jesus their records and certain performances make it very hard to rate them.

Favourite Duran moment has to be any of his crazed victorious post fight interviews where he seems so excited that the interviewer is struggling to both interview and translate.

DuransHorse wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:My favourite Duran moments are rounds ten and eleven of the Barkley fight. That classic bit of disdainful, arrogant Duran swagger in the tenth as he casually moves his head around four or five successive Barkley jabs (with his feet totally planted) and then whacks Barkley back with a counter right of his own at the end of the move, and then that combination to put Barkley over in the eleventh along with that nonchalant walk to the neutral corner afterwards.

Still one of the most spellbinding fights ever for me.

Duran fought a brilliant fight overall, Chris.  Possible some of his finest moments in the ring and the 10th and 11th exude Duran's nature and arrogance, absolutely love it!

On the downside there is a question mark regarding how good Barkley really was, maybe he tried to hard and fought with too much emotion on Moore's behalf, and of course the judges result didn't do it justice either.  Even Barkley admitted that Duran was great that night.

I think to beat Duran you often needed to take something from him before you entered the ring ( Benitez possibly did that best ).  I think Duran had a psychological advantage over Barkley even before they slipped through the ropes and from then on it was an uphill battle.

Barkley fought as perfect a fight as he could have hoped to. I thought he controlled his emotion throughout.

The comments after the Lampkin fight are the clearest indication you can get into Duran's psyche and reinforces the idea that he was almost satanic in his thinking;

“I was not in my best condition. Today I sent him to the hospital. Next time I’ll put him in the morgue.”

Considering it was a sickening knockout that could have had worse consequences it's actually quite a harrowing thing to say but that's what made him the fighter he was.

hazharrison wrote:

DuransHorse wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:My favourite Duran moments are rounds ten and eleven of the Barkley fight. That classic bit of disdainful, arrogant Duran swagger in the tenth as he casually moves his head around four or five successive Barkley jabs (with his feet totally planted) and then whacks Barkley back with a counter right of his own at the end of the move, and then that combination to put Barkley over in the eleventh along with that nonchalant walk to the neutral corner afterwards.

Still one of the most spellbinding fights ever for me.

Duran fought a brilliant fight overall, Chris.  Possible some of his finest moments in the ring and the 10th and 11th exude Duran's nature and arrogance, absolutely love it!

On the downside there is a question mark regarding how good Barkley really was, maybe he tried to hard and fought with too much emotion on Moore's behalf, and of course the judges result didn't do it justice either.  Even Barkley admitted that Duran was great that night.

I think to beat Duran you often needed to take something from him before you entered the ring ( Benitez possibly did that best ).  I think Duran had a psychological advantage over Barkley even before they slipped through the ropes and from then on it was an uphill battle.

Barkley fought as perfect a fight as he could have hoped to. I thought he controlled his emotion throughout.

I'm not suggesting he went in an emotional wreck or fought blindly Haz, just that it had a personal angle for Barkley after he'd seen Duran destroy Moore's promising career, and that doesn't pan out for the best for all fighters. Some fighters can harness those emotions, others can't

Funny thing is, the Lampkin fight was just about Duran's worst performance during his Lightweight reign. He didn't look good at all and never really got properly on top until about the twelfth round or so for me, but still managed to inflict that kind of punishment and toll on Lampkin.

I don't think there are too many downsides to Duran's win over Barkley really, DH, unless you're in the camp which feels that Barkley deserved the nod, as some do. Personally, I've always thought that the right man just about got the verdict and I usually wind up scoring it for Duran by a couple of rounds. But it was close and certainly the 116-112 and 118-112 cards were way too wide and rough justice on Barkley.

With regards to how good Barkley actually was. Well, he perhaps got caught a bit cold by Benn (who got away with some naughty stuff) lost to Kalambay and was on the end of a hammering from Toney, but in between all that he stopped Hearns (a Hearns who still had that superb win against Hill and a revenge win, for all intents and purposes, against Leonard to come) and then outboxed him in a return. He beat Olajide. He gave a supreme talent in Nunn a good, close fight. Clearly he was no great shakes but at the same time it ain't the form line of a hapless bum or no-hoper punch bag as he gets painted as now and then.

But forget all of that for a sec - he was a huge Middleweight, Duran a career Lightweight who generally looked a shade on the podgy side anywhere north of Welterweight, the odd contest here or there aside. There have been plenty of average Middleweight title holders since Barkley but I don't recall too many over-the-hill Lightweights relieving them of their belts. If you ignore the context of weight and size then victories such as Jones-Ruiz or Whitaker-Vasquez don't look like that much cop either, but the weight classes exist for a reason.
Duran didn't really have much business beating a guy like Barkley at that point, nor would any other career Lightweight with as many miles on the clock. Magnificent performance, superb win.

DuransHorse wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

DuransHorse wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:When Roberto Duran was training to fight Carlos Palomino at Madison Square Garden, he worked out at Howard Albert's gym, an old factory loft in the Garment Center, just a few blocks from the new Garden.

It was summertime, and sweltering, and every Latino worker in the garment area-- and their families-- would go to watch their hero train at lunchtime.

The gym was like a steam room, and jammed cheek-to-jowl with the adoring. . They pressed so close; they barely left Duran enough room to do his floor exercises. And then he went into the ring to shadow box.

Spanning what looked like a crowded subway, you could see chests swell and faces full of pride. Plump mothers holding babies in their arms stood right at the
ring apron, while their little children looked up saucer-eyed at this god.

In the midst of all of this, somebody in the back--unbelievably! -- kept yelling at Duran in Spanish: "PIPINO CUEVAS WILL KILL YOU!

Duran paid him no mind and continued to shadow box. But the heckler was relentless: "PIPINO CUEVAS WILL KILL YOU! "PIPINO CUEVAS WILL KILL YOU!

Finally, Duran fixed a glare at him, stretched as far over the ropes as he could--just above the glowing faces of mothers and infants--and yanked down his trunks, grabbed his nuts, and roared in Spanish: "PIPINO CUEVAS CAN SUCK MY ****!

Copied from elsewhere

That's my favourite Duran moment Shah.  It even beats the Leonard victory for me!  

You pick your user name around your favourite fighter, you have any number of amazing sporting moments to choose from, or a wide variety of character stories. Your favourite moment is a cheap throwaway line you can hear 100 times any night of the week in a pub of your choice... Frequently with tackle out.

You need to understand that I’m a southerner and I have lived a very sheltered life, Milky. My heavy nights out are at Brown’s or various other overpriced Bistro’s, where after a shared starter and three courses, I sup a cocktail or two before getting home by 11:30pm.  One has never been to the Oyster and if invited I would assume it was called the Oyster due to Oyster being its flagship dish.  If things get a bit tense in venues I frequent it's usually because they don't accept American Express or Diners Club.

For me, this is about imagining how the tension builds and builds in Duran’s head, getting more and more frustrated whilst trying to ignore the heckler... until exploding in a comically violent eruption of trouser dropping.  Duran being Duran, that was the only way he could articulate his emotions without laying the guy ( or his horse if he had one ) out.

It’s the simple things in life that amuse me Milky!

Well that explains why you joined our happy group

You'll be doing well to get an even-handed answer from me to this question! I think I'm better citing Duran's own opinion when he was asked, back in late 1979, which opponent had most impressed him up to that point (NB that this was pre-Leonard, hearns and the rest of the superstars - Duran's CV was then 66-1).

According to Hugh McIlvanney: "He gave back the answer as abruptly as a punch: Ken Buchanan." It was a tribute that I saw repeated a fair bit around that time and will do for me as far as the answer to the original post is concerned. At his best, Buchanan had the beating of every 135 lb man of his generation bar Duran, in my not especially objective view.

captain carrantuohil wrote:You'll be doing well to get an even-handed answer from me to this question! I think I'm better citing Duran's own opinion when he was asked, back in late 1979, which opponent had most impressed him up to that point (NB that this was pre-Leonard, hearns and the rest of the superstars - Duran's CV was then 66-1).

According to Hugh McIlvanney: "He gave back the answer as abruptly as a punch: Ken Buchanan." It was a tribute that I saw repeated a fair bit around that time and will do for me as far as the answer to the original post is concerned. At his best, Buchanan had the beating of every 135 lb man of his generation bar Duran, in my not especially objective view.

Milky knew you'd be on this thread Captain.

I always got the impression that Duran wouldn't have given De Jesus credit if he'd saved Duran's own mother from a burning building.

However a picture says a thousand word DH.

May be true, DH, although if it is, Duran went a long way to redeeeming himself with his treatment of DeJesus during the latter's terrible final days.

captain carrantuohil wrote:May be true, DH, although if it is, Duran went a long way to redeeeming himself with his treatment of DeJesus during the latter's terrible final days.

Very true. I wonder if asked today what he would say? My guess is, even if he stuck with Buchanan, he'd be much more praising and not so dismissive.

Duran definitely mellowed as the years went by. The man who sneered that Lampkin was lucky not to go to a mortuary and supposedly hit an opponent's mother became quite the boxing patriarch by the end of his career.

Suspect that you're right in your analysis; all partiality aside, it's very difficult to separate DeJesus and Buchanan on a scale of excellence; they're both either just inside or just outside the top 20 lightweights ever, I would think.

Everyone goes on about the "0", but in Durans case that first defeat really ignited something and I think he benefitted from the loss significantly. Then the big win in Montreal cemented his place as an all time great but, in my opinion, seemed to take some of the fight out of him. Imagine coming from the streets, living an Oliver Twist type life, then achieving what is still is held as one of boxing greatest triumphs. How do you surpass that? I'm not saying that is an excuse for the return fight and quitting. As his career progressed I think his general defiance and fight subsided and a certain degree of acceptance began to filter in. He still had his moments but he gradually became less the animal ( which was great to watch ) and started to show a human and compassionate side. If asked though, I'm sure he's still defend every loss on his record with a valid excuse.

It's an jnteresting trait in a lot of top fighters... They rarely like to give credit to those that beat them, and pick out other fighters they beat as 'the best I fought'. No doubt it has a lot to do with them always having an excuse for a defeat, and needing to believe that they are unbeatable at their best.

Duran probably thought hearns was rubbish and the ko punch a lucky shot!

Hearns himself had an interesting list of all time great fighters:

1: Muhammad Ali

2: Joe Frazier

3: Thomas Hearns

4: Roberto Duran

5: Wilfred Benitez

6: Sugar Ray Leonard

7: Mike Tyson

8: Floyd Mayweather

9: George Foreman

10: Marvin Hagler

milkyboy wrote:It's an jnteresting trait in a lot of top fighters... They rarely like to give credit to those that beat them, and pick out other fighters they beat as 'the best I fought'. No doubt it has a lot to do with them always having an excuse for a defeat, and needing to believe that they are unbeatable at their best.

Duran probably thought hearns was rubbish and the ko punch a lucky shot!

Hearns himself had an interesting list of all time great fighters:

1: Muhammad Ali

2: Joe Frazier

3: Thomas Hearns

4: Roberto Duran

5: Wilfred Benitez

6: Sugar Ray Leonard

7: Mike Tyson

8: Floyd Mayweather

9: George Foreman

10: Marvin Hagler

So Roberto Duran was the best fighter around his own weight he faced, yet he obliterated him. He also beat Benitez who next on his list, but the guys he lost to AND who beat Duran are lower? You tell yourself what ever you have to tell yourself for inner peace I guess.

DuransHorse wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

DuransHorse wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:My favourite Duran moments are rounds ten and eleven of the Barkley fight. That classic bit of disdainful, arrogant Duran swagger in the tenth as he casually moves his head around four or five successive Barkley jabs (with his feet totally planted) and then whacks Barkley back with a counter right of his own at the end of the move, and then that combination to put Barkley over in the eleventh along with that nonchalant walk to the neutral corner afterwards.

Still one of the most spellbinding fights ever for me.

Duran fought a brilliant fight overall, Chris.  Possible some of his finest moments in the ring and the 10th and 11th exude Duran's nature and arrogance, absolutely love it!

On the downside there is a question mark regarding how good Barkley really was, maybe he tried to hard and fought with too much emotion on Moore's behalf, and of course the judges result didn't do it justice either.  Even Barkley admitted that Duran was great that night.

I think to beat Duran you often needed to take something from him before you entered the ring ( Benitez possibly did that best ).  I think Duran had a psychological advantage over Barkley even before they slipped through the ropes and from then on it was an uphill battle.

Barkley fought as perfect a fight as he could have hoped to. I thought he controlled his emotion throughout.

I'm not suggesting he went in an emotional wreck or fought blindly Haz, just that it had a personal angle for Barkley after he'd seen Duran destroy Moore's promising career, and that doesn't pan out for the best for all fighters.  Some fighters can harness those emotions, others can't

Oh yeah, wasn't putting words in your mouth or anything. I just feel Barkley managed that aspect of the fight superbly. "The Blade" was bloody unlucky that night - if Duran hadn't summoned one last beguiling performance Barkley would have taken him and earned himself some serious money.

DuransHorse wrote:

milkyboy wrote:It's an jnteresting trait in a lot of top fighters... They rarely like to give credit to those that beat them, and pick out other fighters they beat as 'the best I fought'. No doubt it has a lot to do with them always having an excuse for a defeat, and needing to believe that they are unbeatable at their best.

Duran probably thought hearns was rubbish and the ko punch a lucky shot!

Hearns himself had an interesting list of all time great fighters:

1: Muhammad Ali

2: Joe Frazier

3: Thomas Hearns

4: Roberto Duran

5: Wilfred Benitez

6: Sugar Ray Leonard

7: Mike Tyson

8: Floyd Mayweather

9: George Foreman

10: Marvin Hagler

So Roberto Duran was the best fighter around his own weight he faced, yet he obliterated him.  He also beat Benitez who next on his list, but the guys he lost to AND who beat Duran are lower?  You tell yourself what ever you have to tell yourself for inner peace I guess.

To be fair to tommy... He's not the sharpest tool in the box. If he managed to give them 10 names without being prompted, it was probably considered a result.

I like him at 3 though... Probably thought he was being modest.

Poor old Tommy...if he'd been as far ahead in the queue when the Almighty was handing out grey matter as he was when pure talent and physical gifts were being bestowed, you wouldn't need to look anywhere else for the identity of the greatest fighter who ever lived.

Truss shares a lot of attributes with his favourite fighter Tommy except the bit about the talent.