State of the team: England

What are your thoughts on where we are as a team at the end of the 6 nations.

I believe we are a lot better at creating chances which is certainly an improvement on last year, i think this is due to the half back partnership between B. Youngs and Ford. B. Youngs seems to have found his form again. For me Ford is miles ahead of Farrell at the moment, he improves our attacking play so much more than him. His work with his club mate Joseph is working well too. Talking of Joseph, he's had a really good six nations and probably one of our best players.

Still not sure why Care isnt in the match day squad, not sure what Wigglesworth brings other than being a different type of player to B. Youngs. What has been bit of an issue this year (i can't believe im about to say this about an england team) is our scrum. It hasn't been as powerful as years gone by, is that a result of our forwards being told to up their work rate around the park and being tied at scrum time?

This year we have been creating chances but not finishing them off, we also seem to have a fair few handling errors that needs stamping out. How are we going to do this? Can we? Is it just the players need some more game time with each other?

What are anyone elses thoughts on where we're at?

You've a good team there - anyone who'd want Wade, May or anyone else instead of the two wings you've got wants their head examining. Find a 12, tighten your defence - or rather don't, at least not before October. Relieved salutations to a fine team in which the wings, Ford, Joseph, Lawes and Vunipola would be the stand-outs (Youngs hot and cold during the season).

England must be chuffed, come 2nd again, consistent performances all round

Gwlad wrote:England must be chuffed, come 2nd again, consistent performances all round

Better than 3rd

Ah just the dress rehearsal, we'll be top in 7 months time when it matters most.

Same joke again Gwlad Iwant to finish 3rd just to change the record.

lostinwales wrote:

Gwlad wrote:England must be chuffed, come 2nd again, consistent performances all round

Better than 3rd

but that result has been wipe of the slate now, its still only the grand slams that remain and can be spoken about again... and again... forever

lostinwales wrote:

Gwlad wrote:England must be chuffed, come 2nd again, consistent performances all round

Better than 3rd

Having won it so many times its nice to let others have a go, we didn't squander another chance like England and we beat the eventual winners which England failed to do. England came 2nd, again, after starting out so well. I am chuffed for ireland. That England came 2nd, again, means nothing to Wales. We were playing to win the thing not come 2nd and pat ourselves on the back for being consistent. How many times is that now?

Deleted

Our tactical kicking needs to improve. We need to solve the 12 issue. Our tackling in the backs could be improved - especially Watson. For a big lad he bounces off too many and was a liability today. Mike Brown needs to calm down sometimes. Haskell needs a lobotomy - after all he already makes brainless decisions. Hartley needs to be re-introduced to hi sinner beast. This new, calmer version was rather insipid.

Most of all we need to find the right balance between power, technique and workrate in the pack.



However we do look threatening ball in hand, and we are making progress. Hopefully we do not see too many break down befoire the end of the season.

we are on the right track i believe. few changes as mentioned above. Care into squad, burgess at 12 , switch may in for watson for a while to make him fight for his place. jj, nowell and brown own their shirts.

lets not diminish england's achievements today. they scored 55 points against france. the most ireland have ever managed is 25 and their biggest ever margin of victory is 9.

there are many things to be positive about today.

where we really need to be critical is about how to avoid another defeat against Ireland such as we endured. we cannot afford to be outsmarted by tactics and streetsmarts at the breakdown again.

Gwlad wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Gwlad wrote:England must be chuffed, come 2nd again, consistent performances all round

Better than 3rd

Having won it so many times its nice to let others have a go, we didn't squander another chance like England and we beat the eventual winners which England failed to do. England came 2nd, again, after starting out so well. I am chuffed for ireland. That England came 2nd, again, means nothing to Wales. We were playing to win the thing not come 2nd and pat ourselves on the back for being consistent. How many times is that now?

Why bother?

Gwlad wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Gwlad wrote:England must be chuffed, come 2nd again, consistent performances all round

Better than 3rd

Having won it so many times its nice to let others have a go, we didn't squander another chance like England and we beat the eventual winners which England failed to do. England came 2nd, again, after starting out so well. I am chuffed for ireland. That England came 2nd, again, means nothing to Wales. We were playing to win the thing not come 2nd and pat ourselves on the back for being consistent. How many times is that now?

England did that last year, which Wales didn't.

Gwlad wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Gwlad wrote:England must be chuffed, come 2nd again, consistent performances all round

Better than 3rd

Having won it so many times its nice to let others have a go, we didn't squander another chance like England and we beat the eventual winners which England failed to do. England came 2nd, again, after starting out so well. I am chuffed for ireland. That England came 2nd, again, means nothing to Wales. We were playing to win the thing not come 2nd and pat ourselves on the back for being consistent. How many times is that now?

You also didn't win it and don't forget we beat you in Wales, so stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

I think the squad of players we have is great,, look at the guys we have to come back too. But our tactics at times are questionable and for me we still lack leaders on the field.

Can we really go back to Farrell after seeing how much better we are going forward with ford at 10, his not perfect but I think we need 36 at 12 to take some of the pressure of kicking off his shoulders, I have no idea where a fit Manu fits into this team now as JJ is in fine form.

Duty281 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Gwlad wrote:England must be chuffed, come 2nd again, consistent performances all round

Better than 3rd

Having won it so many times its nice to let others have a go, we didn't squander another chance like England and we beat the eventual winners which England failed to do. England came 2nd, again, after starting out so well. I am chuffed for ireland. That England came 2nd, again, means nothing to Wales. We were playing to win the thing not come 2nd and pat ourselves on the back for being consistent. How many times is that now?

England did that last year, which Wales didn't.

And you came 2nd last year too.

captain carrantuohil wrote:You've a good team there - anyone who'd want Wade, May or anyone else instead of the two wings you've got wants their head examining.

Watson is an excellent player already and will only get better. However I think a few supporters, myself included, feel we need a bit of stardust and unpredictably in our back three to offer more of a threat returning loose kicks and finishing chances. That's where Wade comes in. He may not be as strong under the high ball or in contact as Watson but his footwork and acceleration in tight spaces or broken play is something else completely.

9.Youngs
10.Ford
11.Nowell
12.Burrell, Barritt, Tuilagi... - Still wide open and needs to be sorted!
13.Joseph
14.Wade
15.Brown

21.Care
22.Farrell
23.Watson

quinsforever wrote:lets not diminish england's achievements today. they scored 55 points against france. the most ireland have ever managed is 25 and their biggest ever margin of victory is 9.

27 points in 2000, 30 in 2009 and 31 in 2006...

Gwlad wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Gwlad wrote:England must be chuffed, come 2nd again, consistent performances all round

Better than 3rd

Having won it so many times its nice to let others have a go, we didn't squander another chance like England and we beat the eventual winners which England failed to do. England came 2nd, again, after starting out so well. I am chuffed for ireland. That England came 2nd, again, means nothing to Wales. We were playing to win the thing not come 2nd and pat ourselves on the back for being consistent. How many times is that now?

England did that last year, which Wales didn't.

And you came 2nd last year too.

And you came 3rd last year too!

We need a new defence coach asap, the RFU need to make an offer to Shaun Edwards he simply cannot refuse.

Duty281 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Gwlad wrote:England must be chuffed, come 2nd again, consistent performances all round

Better than 3rd

Having won it so many times its nice to let others have a go, we didn't squander another chance like England and we beat the eventual winners which England failed to do. England came 2nd, again, after starting out so well. I am chuffed for ireland. That England came 2nd, again, means nothing to Wales. We were playing to win the thing not come 2nd and pat ourselves on the back for being consistent. How many times is that now?

England did that last year, which Wales didn't.

And you came 2nd last year too.

And you came 3rd last year too!

Les go back to 2013 then if you really want to….

England have show today that they are better keeping hold of the ball and running and attacking the opposition. Rather than kicking the ball and chasing after it, look what happend every time we tried that today, france ran it back and put England under a lot of pressure leading to a try.

I think the team is not quite complete, i think that a little tweeking here and there and we will be there or at least there about.

It all depends how we want to move forward; if it's the more expansive game we've played this year then Ford and possibly Twelvetrees at 12, I personally feel more comfortable with Farrell at 10 and Barritt at 12, gives us the defensive stability we've lacked and it's that which will cost us come the RWC.

Who wants to live in the past Gwlad?

What year is it in Wales anyway?

Farrell and Barritt would be a step backwards imo.

Maybe Barrett but a big no to Farrell.

Gwlad wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Gwlad wrote:England must be chuffed, come 2nd again, consistent performances all round

Better than 3rd

Having won it so many times its nice to let others have a go, we didn't squander another chance like England and we beat the eventual winners which England failed to do. England came 2nd, again, after starting out so well. I am chuffed for ireland. That England came 2nd, again, means nothing to Wales. We were playing to win the thing not come 2nd and pat ourselves on the back for being consistent. How many times is that now?

England did that last year, which Wales didn't.

And you came 2nd last year too.

And you came 3rd last year too!

Les go back to 2013 then if you really want to….

Why stop there?

2003 has a lovely ring to it!

Duty281 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Gwlad wrote:England must be chuffed, come 2nd again, consistent performances all round

Better than 3rd

Having won it so many times its nice to let others have a go, we didn't squander another chance like England and we beat the eventual winners which England failed to do. England came 2nd, again, after starting out so well. I am chuffed for ireland. That England came 2nd, again, means nothing to Wales. We were playing to win the thing not come 2nd and pat ourselves on the back for being consistent. How many times is that now?

England did that last year, which Wales didn't.

And you came 2nd last year too.

And you came 3rd last year too!

Les go back to 2013 then if you really want to….

Why stop there?

2003 has a lovely ring to it!

TightHEAD wrote:Farrell and Barritt would be a step backwards imo.

Maybe Barrett but a big no to Farrell.

I just do not trust Ford's kicking whether it's from hand or the tee, tight game in the quarters you've got a penalty 40 yards out, who do you want taking it? That eventuality is far more likely than Ford controlling a game against New Zealand or South Africa.

Fords more exciting to watch.

That means nothing to me, I want the players who are giving the most likely chance to win consistently. Wade is more exciting than Nowell but I don't want him in the team.

But ford has dragged england to 2nd place in the 6 nations in only his first few games for England, Farrell has had longer and done no better, Ford every day for me Im afraid, I want to be entertained and I would still pick Nowell over wade anyway.

Gwlad wrote:England must be chuffed, come 2nd again, consistent performances all round

Better than coming 3rd. Again.

That last game didn't really prove anything as it was so different to a usual Int game.

The whole squad is coming together nicely. Just a few changes really, Care in for Wigglesworth, Burrell dropped from the EPS to regain his form. Any others?

I can't forget the Sexton hit on him in the first couple of minutes myself, set the tone of the match and something that wouldn't have happened nor affected Farrell.

Despite some errors in his game at times you lot need to keep Ford at number 10

If Farrell comes back into the setup it should be as a centre or on the bench as cover

But you should start with Ford everytime if you are to continue this success

We need to get Hartley back and drop the soft teddy bear that has taken his place.

We're ok. Care needs to come back in and duke it out with Youngs for the SH job. Farrell will def be brought back in when fit again. I'd stick with the same backline. Where will Manu fit back in tho?
As for the coaches, Sir Clives TCUP mantra needs to be the team rule. Those missed chance last week and soft ones conceding today cost England the title.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I can't forget the Sexton hit on him in the first couple of minutes myself, set the tone of the match and something that wouldn't have happened nor affected Farrell.

For the sake of one tackle against the best NH FH who was pumped Up and on song you would sacrifice all our tries and go forward?

Ford wasn't weak in defence like most thought he would be, no wilko btw but still.

What happens in the bigger games is slightly more important when you're looking forward to New Zealand, Australia and South Africa than what happened against Scotland, France and Italy.

Your right, I'd rather a three or four penalties and no go forward vs those teams instead of tries.

NZ have Cruden and Slade, Oz have Cooper or Beale SA have Pollard. None are particularly big or physical and I think Ford will stand up well against them all

I agree.

Gwlad = Glum'n' sad.

Steve_rugby wrote:

Gwlad wrote:England must be chuffed, come 2nd again, consistent performances all round

Better than coming 3rd. Again.

England's record since 2003, when they last won a GS in the 6 Nations, is embarrassing by comparison with Wales 4 Championships since 2005. To argue with that is as simple as to argue that coming 2nd is ok every year which is the stock defense for England's 6 Nations performance. When Wales aren't winning it, they make real and obvious progress throughout the tournament. The same cannot be said for England. I am chuffed to bits with Wales bar losing to England they have gone from strength to strength this season with great wins v SA and Ireland.

Every year England are well placed to win it, to even go on and win the Slam, and every year they fail. Usually at the last hurdle.

England are exactly where they were when Lancaster came in 4 years ago, still coming 2nd. STILL NOT WINNING.

There then follows an analysis which indicates everyone is happy with the 2nd place status quo, they are building, its consistent performance etc. B.S.

What is really scary about it is that in order to avoid the facts England fans have actually convinced themselves that this is acceptable, the main irony being that if Lancaster needs to be consistent about anything, it is to stop selecting the Next Best Thing all the time and stick with a 23. But results begin as they are he has to tweak to find the edge which he thinks is in personnel selection and which he should now realise is in backing a team and allowing them to develop.

The big test for that is what will happen when Manu is fit…does he automatically get selected?

Two teams should be really worried right now and that is England and Scotlland. France just showed it is all still there and they just need to let it all hang out. Wales, well we are always slow starters and have shown before that the longer we are in camp the better and better we get. Italy are on an even keel and Ireland, well they are potential world beaters with a favorable RWC draw.

State of England?

My thoughts: not much has changed. England have proven they have plenty of depth and these past four years have fielded a big roster of exciting players capable of seriously competing for the championship.

But the positivity is clearly capped. For that's about as far as they've progressed. They've 'seriously competed' very consistently while also consistently falling agonisingly short of the top spot. They've won the vast majority of their games (joint most with Wales since 2011) and many of them in style, yet somehow don't have a trophy to show for it. This year is more or less a replica of the last three in that regard. They have yet to clearly move on.

That's not to imply that there aren't plenty of positives to take going forward and England are generally a side that nobody can afford to take lightly nowadays. But my guess is that, in the immediate aftermath of today, Lancaster and co. will be rather gutted at having missed this chance of building a strong mental platform for the RWC. Particularly considering the toughness of their group, there's still work to be done.

gregortree wrote:Gwlad = Glum'n' sad.

wow, did you think that up all on your own?

Gwlad wrote:

Steve_rugby wrote:

Gwlad wrote:England must be chuffed, come 2nd again, consistent performances all round

Better than coming 3rd. Again.

England's record since 2003, when they last won a GS in the 6 Nations, is embarrassing by comparison with Wales 4 Championships since 2005. To argue with that is as simple as to argue that coming 2nd is ok every year which is the stock defense for England's 6 Nations performance. When Wales aren't winning it, they make real and obvious progress throughout the tournament. The same cannot be said for England. I am chuffed to bits with Wales bar losing to England they have gone from strength to strength this season with great wins v SA and Ireland.

Every year England are well placed to win it, to even go on and win the Slam, and every year they fail. Usually at the last hurdle.

England are exactly where they were when Lancaster came in 4 years ago, still coming 2nd. STILL NOT WINNING.

There then follows an analysis which indicates everyone is happy with the 2nd place status quo, they are building, its consistent performance etc. B.S.

What is really scary about it is that in order to avoid the facts England fans have actually convinced themselves that this is acceptable, the main irony being that if Lancaster needs to be consistent about anything, it is to stop selecting the Next Best Thing all the time and stick with a 23. But results begin as they are he has to tweak to find the edge which he thinks is in personnel selection and which he should now realise is in backing a team and allowing them to develop.

The big test for that is what will happen when Manu is fit…does he automatically get selected?

Two teams should be really worried right now and that is England and Scotlland. France just showed it is all still there and they just need to let it all hang out. Wales, well we are always slow starters and have shown before that the longer we are in camp the better and better we get. Italy are on an even keel and Ireland, well they are potential world beaters with a favorable RWC draw.

Two things:

1) Yes, on paper, the results are the same from the 2012 Six Nations right through to the 2015 Six Nations. But it would be foolish to argue that, on the pitch, there has been no improvement. England were reliant on chargedowns to beat Italy and Scotland in 2012, while this year their attacking play has been so much superior. That is just one instance. There are more.

2) Don't you think Wales should be worried? From winning the Grand Slam in 2012, and the title in 2013, they have only managed consecutive third place finishes in the subsequent two Six Nations. That shows a decline, and the manner in which England clinically beat them this year - in Cardiff - must be a huge concern ahead of the World Cup.

England have never finished below 4th n the 6N, whereas Wales are all over the place, even getting the Wooden Spoon in 2003. Wales overall position in the 6N is 4th, whilst Englands is 1st.

England managed a close 2nd in this years 6N with a massive number of first choice players injured for much of the 6N.

Good points both Duty

1. Fair enough, their attacking play has been consistently better thanks in large part to Youngs, Ford who is excellent, and Joseph with a bit of Watson and Nowell thrown in. Their execution on the other hand is poor e.g. Scotland.
2. Worried. No , nervous yes. Fact is with the start we had i thought we might implode but we got better week in and week out. And as for saying 3rd is poor by comparison with 1st well, that is rather obvious isn't it, but the fact is Wales are always on a roller coaster. For me, after theengland defeat at home, we couldn't be better placed going into a long pre RWC camp with 4 wins, a rampage in Paris, a defensive performance i haven't seen by any side v Ireland and new talent in the pack blooded in front of a sizzling back line. Strength in depth so good Halfpenny is a question mark now.

I'm not overly concerned about finishing third this year. It's merely academic where we finished being based on points and we lost no more games than Ireland or England.

While it would have been nice to win the 6N I think anything other than a Grandslam is a disappointment so first, second or third doesn't make a lot of difference once the Grandslam is out of the window

I am more concerned about the shocking second half performance Wales had against England in Cardiff. If we play like that against a SH team we won't stand a chance at the world cup

The Ireland game proved that we can defend though so it Wales can use that platform and start learning how channel that towards a better attacking game we should continue to compete with the SH teams