State of the team: England

First topic message reminder :

What are your thoughts on where we are as a team at the end of the 6 nations.

I believe we are a lot better at creating chances which is certainly an improvement on last year, i think this is due to the half back partnership between B. Youngs and Ford. B. Youngs seems to have found his form again. For me Ford is miles ahead of Farrell at the moment, he improves our attacking play so much more than him. His work with his club mate Joseph is working well too. Talking of Joseph, he's had a really good six nations and probably one of our best players.

Still not sure why Care isnt in the match day squad, not sure what Wigglesworth brings other than being a different type of player to B. Youngs. What has been bit of an issue this year (i can't believe im about to say this about an england team) is our scrum. It hasn't been as powerful as years gone by, is that a result of our forwards being told to up their work rate around the park and being tied at scrum time?

This year we have been creating chances but not finishing them off, we also seem to have a fair few handling errors that needs stamping out. How are we going to do this? Can we? Is it just the players need some more game time with each other?

What are anyone elses thoughts on where we're at?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Yea possibly, although a Ford/Slade/JJ axis lacks physicality

Who cares if you can find space in attack. Its better to run around a opponent than thru him

cb wrote:..................

England only in patches seem to play near their potential, and perhaps their biggest problem is when faced by the top teams.  Is that just experience and maturity?

At least in part I think - and familiarity in the backs combos along with sometimes just trying too hard

MichaelT wrote:Considering we scored 18 tries in the 6 Nations and Burrell scored none of them, it was our defence that cost us the championship -  3 tries in from Italy and 4 from France while the other three teams only scored 1 each. I think having a more defensive minded player like Barritt wouldn't be a bad thing in an intense, short competition like the World Cup.

I disagree. Points difference is unlikely to have much bearing. Its scoring tries that will win this WC

The RWC uses bonus points, unlike the 6N, which means tries scored counts for more. However, in a close group like Pool A, losing bonus points could also be decisive. Defence is going to matter as well. Ford and Joseph give plenty in attack; the backline as a whole needs to be solid in defence.

alcoombe wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Twelvetrees looked good in his cameos to be fair, which is better then Barrett has done recently, we're all working off form from 5 months ago when we talk about him.

Has any one thought that perhaps with attacking players at 10 and 13 now, Twelvetrees doesn't feel like he has to make every thing happen himself? He can relax a bit and just do his natural game rather then try to make something amazing happen with every touch.

Having just watched the Gloucester v Connacht match, if that is his natural attacking game I hope we don't see it again for England.  Some truly terrible decision making and execution with the ball, turning the ball over to the opposition a number of times, plus 5 missed tackles.  Rather than pushing on from his early promise I think he might have actually gone backwards in the last couple of seasons, particularly his kicking from hand (if that's what a kicking 12 looks like, we don't need it), about the only area he's improved in is his rucking and breakdown work.  Speaking of which, Kvesic had another good game, everywhere on the pitch, plenty of turnovers, most tackles for either side, most defenders beaten, 2nd only to May for metres, and some nice offloads and interplay.

Given their knock-out rugby performances this weekend I think Twelvetrees, Burrell & Eastmond can all be shuffled down.

It's all on Barritt tomorrow then!!

TJ wrote:Ford appears to be becoming a real star.  A complete 10 with no obvious weakness - yes a young man who will make mistakes on occasion but the game today he shone as the best player on the pitch.  His rise has meant I now have England back as favourites ( maybe joint with NZ)

Ford must improve his kicking if he ever wants to be a great. Bath could have piled on the pressure and won that game if he'd nailed his kicks and kicked from hand more effectively. Right now his kicking is really letting him down.

There is still something about Little Georgie that just annoys me. Reminds me of that pretty boy who had the headmaster is his pocket. The type of kid I always wanted to smack the snot out of (poor English, pardon)..........

yappysnap wrote:It's all on Barritt tomorrow then!!

Yeah watch him play like a schoolboy, after ive picked him up ha ha...

doctor_grey wrote:There is still something about Little Georgie that just annoys me.  Reminds me of that pretty boy who had the headmaster is his pocket.  The type of kid I always wanted to smack the snot out of (poor English, pardon)..........

Well hes taken a fair bit of punishment out on the field in many a game this season, but to his credit he just gets up, dusts himself off and gets on with it.

I agree his kicking needs to improve but he'll work on that and he could be a very good player for us.

If Farrell can get back to full fitness and form then we could have two very good contrasting 10's . A nice place to be.

PS

Poor Burrell looks lost at the moment zero confidence and form.

Agree about Burrell. Looks like a shot player at the moment. Needs significant time off for serious R&R.

Where was Barrett??!!!! I was all set to see the second coming of the messiah!

He's not the messiah, but neither is he a very naughty boy. I just don't see that we've got any more credible option at 12 right now

Twelvestree looked poor for Gloucester as did Burrell for Northampton.  Burrell problem seems a complete lack of confidence which I think was his main problem in the 6N's (is this a coaching issue?).  Corbishero also struggled in the front row though none of Lawes, Hartley, Wood or Clarke gained any real credit.

On the plus side, Kvesic looked OK.  For Bath, Ford and Watson were not bad.  Is Watson a better full-back than winger?

The Vunipola's played well for Saracens and I thought George compared well with the other English hookers on display (indeed Brits did not fare as well when George was replaced).  Kruis and Strettle not bad either.

For Wasps, Mullan and Simpson were good and Daley continues to improve.  Shame Wade was not available.

On the inside centre question, neither Burrell and Twelvetrees impressed in anyway so is it back to the drawing board?  Does that leave Barritt (though not having played much)?

Like many other I would love to have seen Slade given a chance, and I still feel Eastmond is a good player.

doctor_grey wrote:Agree about Burrell.  Looks like a shot player at the moment.  Needs significant time off for serious R&R.  

I don't know if you have seen much of him recently Doc, but Stephenson is making Burrell look second best at the moment, he may not have the weight, but he is like a Brad Barritt but with pace. He hits the gain line hard, nearly always makes ground, has a good offload, very sound defensively and seems very vocal in the backline, a natural leader. Probably too early for the RWC, but next year he may be England's answer to the 12 conundrum.

I would like to see Tom Stephenson and Sam Hill fighting out for the 12 spot after RWC.

cb wrote:Is Watson a better full-back than winger?

I would say yes he is a better FB in both defence and attack. Prime defensive duties for a FB are gathering kicks with minimal tackling. Watsons's tackling is not good enough for wing, but he is good under the high ball. In attack he is a powerful runner who breaks tackles and has good footwork, fast but not extreme pace.

Post World Cup, What would you policy be on gradual upgrade in personnel....do you make a few changes quite quick or over the period of years...

Ie Does Brown keep his spot.
Robshaw at 7 and Captain?
etc

Or is it a case of its their shirts until one of the young pretenders plays so well that they take the shirts off them.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Post World Cup, What would you policy be on gradual upgrade in personnel....do you make a few changes quite quick or over the period of years...

Ie Does Brown keep his spot.
Robshaw at 7 and Captain?
etc

Or is it a case of its their shirts until one of the young pretenders plays so well that they take the shirts off them.

We won't see another mass clearout - this squad is younger than the 2011 one and its experience is hard won (and still short of Lancaster's optimum). My guess is that Lancaster will bring some more of the graduates of the JRWC winning sides of the last two years into the training camps, and then we will see how it goes. I'd expect Itoje, Slade, Hill and possibly the likes of Harry Sloan and Jack Clifford to start to feature in training squads, and then it will be up to them to win the shirt.

Positions I could see younger players breaking into the senior squad are:
Hooker - several candidates, though there are some decent old 'uns to displace
TH - Cole's got some years left but Brookes, Thomas, Collier and Sinckler will be gunning for Wilson's place. A nice problem to have
Lock/6 - Itoje, obviously
Back row - Clifford and possibly James Chisholm could have a say over the next couple of years
FH - Slade
Centre - Sloan, Hill
Back 3 - I'd not be surprised to see Nowell shift to FB and gradually supplant Brown after the RWC

Loosehead, Lock, 10 and No 8 look the most secure positions in the short term, given how young the incumbents are.

Yeah I would say your right there Poorfour.

I'd like to think Dom Barrow can stay injury free and make a play for a lock spot in the squad...he is massive and a cracking player.

The rest, your probably bang on....

beshocked wrote:Hartley had a poor 6 nations.

Of course I am biased but Jamie George needs to be brought into the squad as 3rd choice hooker. Had another good game on the weekend vs Quins.

Looking forward to seeing what the 4 English clubs can do vs their European rivals.

Bit biased but I think the chances of English clubs winning go in this order:

1.Saracens
2.Bath
3.Wasps
4.Saints

Reasoning behind this - Saracens have beaten Racing Metro 3 times outside England in their recent encounters - in Brussels,Nantes and Paris. Arguably the form team in the AP, pretty close to full strength, best recent record of the English sides left in the competition.

Leinster are not as strong as they used to be - the returning Bath internationals will bolster confidence. Their win over Toulouse will give them belief.

Wasps were unlucky vs Saints. Toulon might be complacent. Wasps have nothing to lose as the heavy underdogs.

Saints have been lucky in recent weeks - they have picked up the draw vs Gloucester and win Wasps but the ref decisions have gone their way. Saints in my opinion are not currently firing at all cylinders - going to one of the toughest venues is hard enough when in form let alone when you're not. Also the loss of North will hurt too.

It's weird to quote oneself but I feel it's appropriate.

Looks like my comments were pretty spot on.

Poorfour wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Post World Cup, What would you policy be on gradual upgrade in personnel....do you make a few changes quite quick or over the period of years...

Ie Does Brown keep his spot.
Robshaw at 7 and Captain?
etc

Or is it a case of its their shirts until one of the young pretenders plays so well that they take the shirts off them.

We won't see another mass clearout - this squad is younger than the 2011 one and its experience is hard won (and still short of Lancaster's optimum). My guess is that Lancaster will bring some more of the graduates of the JRWC winning sides of the last two years into the training camps, and then we will see how it goes. I'd expect Itoje, Slade, Hill and possibly the likes of Harry Sloan and Jack Clifford to start to feature in training squads, and then it will be up to them to win the shirt.

Positions I could see younger players breaking into the senior squad are:
Hooker - several candidates, though there are some decent old 'uns to displace
TH - Cole's got some years left but Brookes, Thomas, Collier and Sinckler will be gunning for Wilson's place. A nice problem to have
Lock/6 - Itoje, obviously
Back row - Clifford and possibly James Chisholm could have a say over the next couple of years
FH - Slade
Centre - Sloan, Hill
Back 3 - I'd not be surprised to see Nowell shift to FB and gradually supplant Brown after the RWC

Loosehead, Lock, 10 and No 8 look the most secure positions in the short term, given how young the incumbents are.

I agree to a certain extent.  I doubt Lancaster will engage in much blood letting after the World Cup, but I wonder if any of the squad in their late 20s or early 30s will be tempted across to France to fill their pension pots.   I can see guys like Ben Foden and James Haskell seeing younger guys coming through and deciding to move on.  This could perhaps even extend to players like Chris Ashton.

The big one I have a concern about is Dylan Hartley leaving.  I know he has signed a new contract at Saints but I doubt it will be longer than a two year extension.  He’ll be 30/31 just after the World Cup; if his position is under threat I can see him heading down to a team like Montpellier

On the other hand,  I feel like a kid at Christmas when I think about the youngsters that are going to come through and get their chances.  I agree about Itoje, Slade and Clifford, but I think there are going to be quite a few other lads who will be increasingly difficult to ignore. Off the top of my head I can think of Kyle Sinkler, Ollie Devoto, Tom Stephenson, Luke Cowan-Dickie, Josh Beaumont and Nick Tompkins

As Geordie says Dom Barrow is a physical lineout lock.  Despite the competition there could be a place opening up for him in the wider squad as Parling fades out and Attwood has been unconvincing.  He’ll have to muscle his way past guys like Kruis, Kitchener and Slater first though.  Mind you, I think Charlie Ewels will be one to watch too in the longer term.  I don’t know what it is about him, but I am reminded of Martin Johnson when I see him play.

Finally, I wonder what the situation with Nathan Hughes will be post World Cup…

Finally, I wonder what the situation with Nathan Hughes will be post World Cup…

Cumbrian, I hope he picks Fiji or Samoa, but we know he'll go for England. Which i'd be disappointed in. He's a good player no doubt...but 3 years residency is just shambolic in my opinon.

For what it is worth, you'd think one of them will come calling for him soon and you'd imagine it would be difficult for him to turn an offer down.

As for Post WC:
The positions that could be up for grabs...

2 Wide open spot when Hartley is not at full pace.
4/5 Lawes / Launcbury should have this sewn up...however they will definitely have challengers.
6/7 - Probably one of the biggest areas to be assessed
11/14 There is still some debate on the wing spots...with plenty of youngsters to fight for them
12 - Obvious
15 - Brown has some challengers coming through potentially if they move to 15.

Does that sum up the current England set up that several key positions aren't set in stone..

Cumbrian wrote:For what it is worth, you'd think one of them will come calling for him soon and you'd imagine it would be difficult for him to turn an offer down.

Hey may be better picking Samoa.

Think that a spot on the bench at 3 may be open to someone like Sinckler if he can push on. Think 11 is now Nowells, Watson will surely move to full back post WC so 14 is open for me.

No 3 is now a position of some depth in my opinion, which places us well in international terms.  I believe Cole and Wilson are pretty much interchanageble, Brookes is brilliant back up and Thomas/ Sinckler will get their chances.

When I think back to 2009-10 when all we had to pick from were the likes of Phil Vickery (Knackered at that point), Julian White (1000 years old),  Andrew Sherdian (Okay but over rated) and Tim Payne (Tim Payne), I think can't help but feel happier.

Light years away isn't it. Same with the 2nd row.

Cumbrian wrote:No 3 is now a position of some depth in my opinion, which places us well in international terms.  I believe Cole and Wilson are pretty much interchanageble, Brookes is brilliant back up and Thomas/ Sinckler will get their chances.

When I think back to 2009-10 when all we had to pick from were the likes of Phil Vickery (Knackered at that point), Julian White (1000 years old),  Andrew Sherdian (Okay but over rated) and Tim Payne (Tim Payne), I think can't help but feel happier.

Brilliant. 

But he is a Lions tourist Cumbrian!

I'm saying nowt.

What has happened to Garvey? I thought he was meant to be the finishing piece of the jigsaw at 6?

The lack of 7 options are pretty worrying.

I think im the only one who was really shouting for him Beshocked. I still think he would be class...but he's not going to get a sniff now.
Ridiculous that a player of his ability combined with size has just been completely ignored.
At least if he didn't perform we could have ruled a line under him...

I think Garvey would be a little slow for Int rugby GF and he doesn't make great yards for a big lad.

There is certainly a gap for a ball carrying 6 though......Burgess?

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think im the only one who was really shouting for him Beshocked. I still think he would be class...but he's not going to get a sniff now.
Ridiculous that a player of his ability combined with size has just been completely ignored.
At least if he didn't perform we could have ruled a line under him...

But that is also true of quite a few other players - what do you do? keep trying different players to see if they work or not? Maybe - but then the risk is that the team is in a state of continual development. At least the current squad seems to be settling in?

Cumbrian - I haven't seen Ewels, but I will watch out for him. I also think Quins' Charlie Matthews will be a long-term option. He's still working on using his size around the park, but he's a solid scrummager, can run a lineout and is fast enough to be used for kick chases and cover defence on the wing.

So we're basically back to the usual England conundrum of loads of promise without a settled squad. That said, if we can just find a couple of reliable, creative 12s it could all slot into place.

Jimpy wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think im the only one who was really shouting for him Beshocked. I still think he would be class...but he's not going to get a sniff now.
Ridiculous that a player of his ability combined with size has just been completely ignored.
At least if he didn't perform we could have ruled a line under him...

But that is also true of quite a few other players - what do you do? keep trying different players to see if they work or not? Maybe - but then the risk is that the team is in a state of continual development. At least the current squad seems to be settling in?

The funny thing is that at times it does feel like that with all the injuries....ironic that the only spot we haven't had injuries has been that back row area...

Geordiefalcon Morgan is injured. 8 isn't a problem as long as either Morgan or Billy are fit though.

Poorfour

Cumbrian - I haven't seen Ewels, but I will watch out for him. I also think Quins' Charlie Matthews will be a long-term option. He's still working on using his size around the park, but he's a solid scrummager, can run a lineout and is fast enough to be used for kick chases and cover defence on the wing.

Biased I may be but I would far rather have Barrow in there. ...so long as he can stay bloomin fit.

So we're basically back to the usual England conundrum of loads of promise without a settled squad. That said, if we can just find a couple of reliable, creative 12s it could all slot into place.

I agree, I do think we are in the continuous state of hoping potential will transfer to quality and reality.
In so many cases that doesn't happen...and we simply have to be realistic that many of the players just aren't good enough.

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon Morgan is injured. 8 isn't a problem as long as either Morgan or Billy are fit though.

Yeah I don't think they're confident Morgan will make the WC.

As for only having Billy...he's class and a workhorse to boot...but I wouldn't want him taking all the work alone.

With Morgan out I think Lancas missed the chance to see who else can cover 8. One injury to Billy and we are royally screwed.

beshocked wrote:What has happened to Garvey? I thought he was meant to be the finishing piece of the jigsaw at 6?

The lack of 7 options are pretty worrying.

That is a beef I've had for a while.  What happens if Robshaw gets injured?  Kvesic and Wallace  haven't kicked on the way I'd like and Fraser seems to hurt himself every time he is about to get the call up.

Haskell or Wood to 7. Kvesic has impressed me this season though. Thought he's been impressive in a mediocre team.

I would not mind seeing a backrow of Itoje, Kvesic and Vunipola after the World cup.  Not necessarily jettisoning Robshaw but at least looking at options.  The above would at least give a good line-out option in the back row.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Haskell or Wood to 7. Kvesic has impressed me this season though. Thought he's been impressive in a mediocre team.

He has indeed. Its funny people were shouting for him when he was not remotely playing well....yet now when he is , the silence is deafening.

Fraser was the blue eyed boy then. Fickle natured.

I'll admit, I haven't followed Premiership as much as other years (new house and job and all that), but the few times I have managed to catch Glos they have been duffed up, perhaps it has coloured my view somewhat.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Fraser was the blue eyed boy then. Fickle natured.

Well to be fair when he was fit...he actually did look a real prospect. If he can get fit and stay fit he could be another real prospect.

But I agree with you for the moment Kvesic looks the next 7 in line. He's only 23ish isn't he...

Just about to be. Fraser is available as much as Tuilagi or Simpson-Daniel unfortunately.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Just about to be. Fraser is available as much as Tuilagi or Simpson-Daniel unfortunately.

You know he's retired now right?

He's in a training camp with Vickery I heard?

I heard, just wanted a injury prone crock as comparison.