State of the team: England

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What are your thoughts on where we are as a team at the end of the 6 nations.

I believe we are a lot better at creating chances which is certainly an improvement on last year, i think this is due to the half back partnership between B. Youngs and Ford. B. Youngs seems to have found his form again. For me Ford is miles ahead of Farrell at the moment, he improves our attacking play so much more than him. His work with his club mate Joseph is working well too. Talking of Joseph, he's had a really good six nations and probably one of our best players.

Still not sure why Care isnt in the match day squad, not sure what Wigglesworth brings other than being a different type of player to B. Youngs. What has been bit of an issue this year (i can't believe im about to say this about an england team) is our scrum. It hasn't been as powerful as years gone by, is that a result of our forwards being told to up their work rate around the park and being tied at scrum time?

This year we have been creating chances but not finishing them off, we also seem to have a fair few handling errors that needs stamping out. How are we going to do this? Can we? Is it just the players need some more game time with each other?

What are anyone elses thoughts on where we're at?

We've needed a kicking option from midfield more than a defensive leader in my opinion. I know Barritt tackles all day and is a good carrier but he'd offer similar to Burrell.

I think Barritt is a step up from Burrell. But yes hes not a kicker. He would still be my choice.

The other option that we all know Lancaster will consider is Farrell at 12. He's a kicker.

Barritt can kick, certainly better than Burrell can.

Barring Tuilagi, Barritt would be my choice I think. Ford negates the lack of creativity so I'd quite like the solidity that Barritt can bring.

Yup, personally I would be aiming to increase our options rather than worry too much about defence, I don't think it's that bad anyway. Not sure how good a IC Farrell is.

If we kick as poorly as we have, and chase as poorly, I would rather have a bosher or a defensive lynchpin.

I see rumours of Wilkinson being brought in part time to work with the kickers

Agree LT, the chase is just not there. Ford hasn't helped, he's kicked poorly which is odd as it's one of his plus points in the AP.

Have we kicked as poorly because a good option isn't there though? Barritt is good but it's a safety first option which I'm sure would improve out defence as much as limit the attack.

Ford has not kicked well, he must have been charged down 7/8 time throughout the 6N also.

Like I said no other option bar the scrum half. People know who to target.

Youngs has kicked too long and Ford just not as good as when at Bath. Very rarely were they rushed - just poor execution. this has then been exacerbated by urine poor chasing. It has often seemed as if the players were unaware the ball would be kicked - especially the box kicks. Since May was dropped only Brookes has once been reaqdy to chase a Youngs kick but he is so slow he set off about 3 years too early.

Support running was an issue that they seem to have worked on. Now they need to work on the kick/chase game and communication.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Ford has not kicked well, he must have been charged down 7/8 time throughout the 6N also.

Most in loose play - so having a second option outside Ford would have made little difference, as would they actually be there?

Brown is an under utilised kicking option.

And who wants Farrell at 12?

It doesn't seem to hamper other nations too much.

Wales - Roberts
SA - JDV
NZ - Nonu
Ireland - Henshaw (did he kick much??)
Scotland - Scott

I've never seen us give away so many charge downs.

It's certainly something Ford needs to work on.

I'd just rather have a more rounded 12 than Barritt as first option. Twelvetrees is still the best bet for me (but limited), but Slade could be the one. Serious classy player.

Would be madness to consider Farrell at 12. Plus he's currently injured and hasn't been in good form for over a year. If he can rediscover his form he might challenge for the 10 shirt but I wouldn't want to see him wear 12 shirt at club level let alone international level.

Barritt didn't exactly do too badly with Ford in the win vs australia albeit out of position.

Barritt offers more than Burrell because he's a defensive leader. Even though he's unfashionable - having him in the midfield does make a positive impact because it would give Ford a much needed rock next to him.

Burrell did not have a good 6 nations.

He did not. Not particularly because of his defence though but because of wrong options taken in attack.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:It doesn't seem to hamper other nations too much.

Wales - Roberts
SA - JDV
NZ - Nonu
Ireland - Henshaw (did he kick much??)
Scotland - Scott

I've never seen us give away so many charge downs.

I guess its the make up of the backlines around them that makes a difference there, and how the players are being used

Wales have JD2 and whoever plays at full back as an additional option, SA use Le Roux, NZ have Dagg and Ben Smith, Ireland used Kearney and Zebo, the Scots have Hogg

I have no idea why Mike Brown isn't used more often as a clearing kicker, he's left footed too and has a massive boot. Its more a tactical thing for me than the player in the 12 shirt

So again it comes down to the coaches tactics and not the players?

I think we could play this merry go round in the 12 position until the '19 RWC and still not have anything corrected. I don't think it's as simple as swap player A for B but instead changing the coaching and tactics of the 9,10,12,15 to all help each other with kicking, standing at 10 and defence.

Is it to do with building more cohesion in the backline rather than coaching/individuals?

We seem to have a different combination at 10/12, 12/13, back 3.....every couple of games.

Is it me or has Burrell beefed up this year, I seem to remember him being 16 stone, his stats now show him at approaching 17. It could be that the extra beef is slowing him down, he was never quick, but looks very lumbering for a back these days. A bit like Marler, he used to be very quick but has traded speed for bulk; understandable for a prop, not for a back.

I think England's kicking has been bad for quite a while. When you have a player like May playing, this can get missed. He is just so quick that he still gets there. Look at the re-starts, first few Games May was under every one, not necessarily winning, but making things difficult for the catcher and we profited. The attacking player jumping for the ball has a distinct advantage these days, he can't be blocked or interfered with once in the air, hence why so many spilt catches.

Nowell has had a good 6N ball in hand and defensively except when the ball was in the air, he was owned by both Bowe and Huget when it came to catching under the challenge. It's not surprising as he is 6" shorter and 3 stone lighter.

We either need to give him some protection or play a bigger player, we cannot afford to give the opposition 35-40m and possession in broken play every time they kick to his wing. May has his faults, but he is competitive under the high ball and rarely gets beaten.

I would be in favour of Barritt at 12 for some games, pick to play the opposition, 36 or Eastmond /Slade for others. As long as they are all in the squad, they should be able to change the game plan to suit the side playing.

People are raving about our new found wingers, but they all have serious flaws, some due to stature, some to either ability or lack or inclination. Watson was a revolving door Saturday.

He is a big lad, I would want to see him smashing the opposition back, not spinning round as they go past. Get Lawes to give him some lessons, put the fear of god into his opposite number. You get a bad ball, you get me at the same time, horizontal and looking to cut you in half.

Still can't get that Lawes tackle out of my head, an absolute monster of a hit. Without any leverage, just momentum, to hit a guy that hard he folds up in that manner. Takes me back to my youth..................................................in my dreams anyway.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd just rather have a more rounded 12 than Barritt as first option. Twelvetrees is still the best bet for me (but limited), but Slade could be the one. Serious classy player.

I think we all would mate. Its just until ones come about we have to pick from players with pro's and cons. I guess it just goes on who will bring most to the team.

We shall see if Slade can make a surprise play for that 12 shirt.

As for the kicking it has been poor for a long time.

Its just aimless pointless kicking. At least if we tried for touch...or kicked the ball in to space it would be bareable...but we don't..its straight to opposition players, and when you have no kick chase then its appalling.

sgt pooly the difficulty is that people get injured, form comes and goes too.

Burrell was a star of last year's 6 nations but had a poor tournament this time round.

Balance is important.

I feel like if you put in a small attacking 10 like Ford you need a strong defender like Barritt to support him.

Continuity would help. Too much choice seems to confuse rather than to focus selection. 10 through 13 esp. Then add in the injuries. I'm pinning a lot of hope on the summer camp to get the backs to actually know each other, and then carry that forward onto the pitch. Btw, Ford / Joseph have a great understanding carried from their club. Youngs / Ford have also developed well as a combo for England. Which brings is back to the troublesome 12 position ???

Do you think he needs the help in defence beshocked?

Would you bring back manu if he was fully fit in the summer?

Or has Joseph made that shirt his for the moment?

Joseph has made it his own as far as I'm concerned. No problem with Manu on the bench, or even tried at 12. And if he puts in great performances off the bench then he has a chance at taking it back. We can't be too reliant on one player anyway. That's one injury from disaster.

It's a no-brainer. Sad as it might seem, Barritt is simply our best IC, so he has to be selected.

And funny how Watson's defensive frailties get largely accepted but a certain Splash (or even May) gets a slappin' for it.

Best player doesn't mean the best suited to the team or game plan though.

no 7 & 1/2 I think vs Ireland and France Barritt would have been useful.

Barney mcrew it very true - Watson's defence has indeed been poor - I guess it's an English winger thing! The simple reason to stick with him is that he's got his club mates - Ford and Joseph in the backline.

Manu coming off the bench would be excellent agreed.

I'd play either Barritt or Farrell at 12, defensive stability is just as important as flair and we weren't exactly lacking for flair with Burrell in the team not doing a lot of either were we. I'd then play Tuilagi at 14 with Watson as bench cover for the wings and full back and Slade for 10 and Centre.

Nowell seems to have cemented his place and I think the option of Tuilagi as a battering ram is a useful one, he'll come off his win looking for the ball often and is a touch more defensively sound.

How would Barritt have been useful beshocked in those particular games?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Best player doesn't mean the best suited to the team or game plan though.

We have a game-plan??!!

No 7&1/2 wrote:How would Barritt have been useful beshocked in those particular games?

He'd have offered more than Burrell.

More what exactly?

Burrells crash ball wasn't up to the standard required...nor his carrying in general.
Barritt might not set the world on fire but his crash ball is done with 100% commitment and at top pace.

Barritts passing is not as bad as everone makes out and would have been as good as Burrells which we barely saw much of anyway.

Englands defensive line would hopefully be more organised with a leader in there at 12. We have saved the 6 points that would have won the tournament. Who knows?

Barritt is also a lot better at the breakdown, a major problem we had against the Irish.

He's a defensive leader. He would have added much needed experience and helped the guys settled down a bit. England have more flash now but they need a bit more substance and glue to bring everything together. Barritt gives reliability in the midfield.


It's about balance IMO. Burrell is also in poor form.

Scoring 7 tries, conceding 5 tries - shows good attack and poor defence - you would think that Barritt would help that defence.

But looking at the tries conceded it's hard for me to see where his impact would come. Fair point Hammersmith but he didn't make a jot of difference in a similar breakdown failure in Wales a couple of years back. You obviously can't tell what would have happened but I can't see Barritt making much of a difference in those games.

The Wales game was a refereeing shocker from Walsh in my opinion which set the tone of that second half, one player isn't going to make a difference in 30-3 game but can in a close game like the Ireland one. Make no mistake Barritt like Bastereaud would be targeting Sexton and could possibly have minimised his influence on the game, unlikely but also a distinctly possibility. He might not have made much difference but he's far more likely to have made a difference than Burrell that's the point.

no 7 & 1/2 he made a difference when England beat Ireland in Ireland last time round.

Of course we don't know for sure what would have happened but I personally think he could have made a positive impact because of his strengths.

I believe in not picking players out of form - Burrell quite clearly had a poor 6 nations.

Such a shame he didn't bring his form of 2014.

Can't see it myself Hammer.

It wasn't really defence where we were under pressure though that's my point. In these games Burrell has been alright there but made some blunders in attacking. Poor decision making above all else. Barritt brings a brick wall but he isn't helping our attacking.

Doubt anyone would have made much of a difference against Ireland, possibly Brown, but sexton and Murray were just on fire.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Doubt anyone would have made much of a difference against Ireland, possibly Brown, but sexton and Murray were just on fire.

I think Wood and Lawes would have put more pressure on Sexton, Launchbury and Wood wouldn't have given away stupid penalties like Haskell and Attwood, and if Morgan had of made the break from the scrum that Vunipola did he wouldn't have kicked it away. He would have made a smarter decision. Vunipola's mind gave up before his body did in that instance.

But its all ifs, buts and maybes now. Somehow we need to train the England players to stop giving away stupid penalties. At the top level there is rarely a huge margin between first and second place, and reducing the easy three pointers would be a great place to start.

If it was up to me I would leave Joseph at 13 and bring Tuilagi in at 12. In my opinion he does everything Burrell does, only better. I know it has been tried before, but Joseph was pretty inexperienced at the time. I think it could work better now. Imagine Joseph using the space that Tuilagi's presence creates. With Ford pulling the strings in attack, I think it could develop into a special partnership. It would need Manu to become a defensive organiser though (like Barritt).

I think having Launchbury and Tuilagi available might have made a difference against Ireland, at various times over the last few years they have been our best players. I think when we have everybody back and fit England will be a very difficult team to beat come World Cup time. Will that be enough? With home advantage, who knows?

Agree on Tuilagi at 12. We put Farrell there then everybody will target Joseph anyway, because no one will expect Farrell to do much ball in hand (And yes he can run a bit, but he isnt exactly a big threat). No problem with Barritt there.

Burrell has to go back to basics or something. He has been poor.

In fairness, I think if Barritt had been fit, he probably would have gone in ahead of Burrell for the last couple of games, its just bad luck that he was injured

You know, given the performance against France it is easy to forget just how many players we have who are currently injured or out of form. Ben Morgan, Joe Launchbury, David Wilson, Danny Care, Ed Slater, Owen Farrell, Brad Barritt, Christian Wade, Tom and Ben Foden. That's not to mention that Alex Coribisiero is only just coming back from a long term layoff.

In general, pretty excited about the England team and its prospects in the WC. I think Lancaster has 3 areas to think about:

6 - I don't think Haskell is the answer. Been around a long time now, and still hasn't developed the rugby brain to be a top class international. There's Wood and Croft, obviously, but I'd like to see Billy given a go at 6 if Morgan rehabilitates well. His fitness levels are growing and growing, the Morgan / Billy carrying options would be useful. A bit stretched at line out time, but Robshaw would need to step up there.

12 - Burrell's been poor. He's an error machine at the moment. The conservative option is Barritt, but I'd like to see Tuilagi given a go there on his return. Billy Twelvetrees has shown enough off the bench (excluding the Ireland game), that I'm disappointed he didn't get a start over Burrell. His time may have run out. Eastmond could impress as the grounds get harder over the spring and force himself back into contention. I actually don't think Burgess is far away from union 'clicking' for him, I just think he's a back rower.

Back three - Injuries aside, Brown will be FB at the WC. Nowell's got a place. The other place is up for grabs. If you're going to play Watson, then May, Wade, Ashton all have a shout. I'd still love to see Wade given a serious go. On harder grounds his offense outweighs the defensive frailties.

Can't wait to see the extended squad. Hope Armitage is in it, just to keep all options open.

Cumbrian wrote:If it was up to me I would leave Joseph at 13 and bring Tuilagi in at 12.  In my opinion he does everything Burrell does, only better.  I know it has been tried before, but Joseph was pretty inexperienced at the time.  I think it could work better now.  Imagine Joseph using the space that Tuilagi's presence creates. With Ford pulling the strings in attack, I think it could develop into a special partnership. It would need Manu to become a defensive organiser though (like Barritt).

I think having Launchbury and Tuilagi available might have made a difference against Ireland, at various times over the last few years they have been our best players.  I think when we have everybody back and fit England will be a very difficult team to beat come World Cup time.  Will that be enough?  With home advantage, who knows?

Completely agree. Tuilagi/ Joseph means the opposition would either have to leave Tuilagi one-on-one, or would have to risk giving Joseph half a yard of space. I'd also love to see Ford's delayed passes going to Tuilagi.

On the negative side, Tuilagi isn't the best passer and doesn't kick, but that's also true of Burrell. And though Tuilagi may not be a defensive organiser, he can improve, even if he'll never be a Barritt. Anyway, he's more solid than Burrell one-on-one.

As a more contentious suggestion, I also wonder whether it's worth trying Robshaw-Morgan-Vunipola in the back row. That would be a formidably powerful unit, and what it lacks in mobility could be compensated for by Lawes and Launchbury.

Who would have predicted that BillyV would play every minute before the tournament started. His fitness levels are indeed much improved, he has played 6 for Sarries so if Morgan is fit in time I would quite like to see them both start in one of the warm up games.

Haskell looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane. Not good enough.