Welsh World Cup Squad

First topic message reminder :

Dragons not playing until tomorrow and quiet on here so just wondered what early thoughts are on the Welsh WC squad.  I think a lot of it will pick itself unless injury or shock retirements dictate.  I have gone with a 30 man squad 16/14 forwards/back split same as last world cup so here's my thought.

Here's the 47 man Training Squad, Players in bold are the ones I think are already inked in:

Props (5) JENKINS,JAMES,LEE, Evans, Francis, Jarvis, Andrews
Hookers (3) BALDWIN,OWENS, Dacey
2 Row (3) AWJ, CHARTERIS, Ball, Davies, Day
Backrow (5) FALETAU, WARBURTON, LYDIATE, TIPURIC,Moriarty, King

No9s (3) WEBB, Davies, Ll Williams
No10s (3) BIGGAR, PRIESTLAND, Anscombe, Morgan
Centres (3) ROBERTS, Sc WILLIAMS, Morgan, Allen
Back 3 (5) NORTH, HALFPENNY, Li WILLIAMS, Cuthbert, Walker, Amos, James (Then 2 from Cuthbert, Amos, Walker) For me Cuthbert and Amos

As I said the ones in Bold are the ones I feel are already pencilled in to go. Updated squad as we stand now

bedfordwelsh wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:I'd have Ben John in for Jon Davies at the moment. He looks in better form that everyone else

He has been in good form but only the last part of season, if anyone I reckon it will be Tyler Morgan given he's been pulled from the U20s sqaud.

Ben had a few injuries early season, a runof games has shown him to be the form player. Morgan looks like one for the future, he hasn't shown the same creativity as John.

Dis-agree with you on that maes, Morgan has shown great skill both attack and defence. Its a shame Cory Alllen has been injured this year as he would be my next choice.

Morgan hasn't shown the intelligence that John has.. Morgan is far more direct, less subtle.. He was definitely the pick of the bunch on form..

Again, dis agree Maes. Morgan had bags of skill and top pace which John lacks. Dixon on the other hand is more direct and less subtle very much in the Roberts mould.

Just haven't seen Morgan hit the same running lines as John, less clever off loads, weaker defence and I'm not sure what you mean regarding pace. I know that Morgan is the faster of the two but John hasn't lacked pace this season, in fact he has looked like he has little to worry about in that department.

Morgans top end pace seems better, what I saw of John when he was on loan with us I think he lacked that top end speed. Neither are slow by any means but think Morgan has more in the bag.

It also easier to look good in the current Ospreys side compared to the chances he had when with us.

I wonder how much being on a DC will come into it, like you said on recent end of season form then John would be the pick but with Morgan having a very good season and being on a DC will that tip things in his favour.

Personally I think with him being pulled out of the U20s then I reckon he will now make the main squad. If he was just being called up to train with the squad then Ithink he would have been left in the U20s squad.

Morgans DC hadn't had him selected yet. Still uncapped. I don't think they'll rush him in.

maestegmafia wrote:Morgans DC hadn't had him selected yet. Still uncapped. I don't think they'll rush him in.

Maes, I would think because JD2 has pulled out, both Morgan and John would be selected, as Corey Allen would have been in there before both of those if he hadn't also been injured, for a match scenario there has to be at least 4 centres with somebody in reserve (Hook, Anscombe), it'll be an interesting few weeks in that camp.

maestegmafia wrote:Just haven't seen Morgan hit the same running lines as John, less clever off loads, weaker defence and I'm not sure what you mean regarding pace. I know that Morgan is the faster of the two but John hasn't lacked pace this season, in fact he has looked like he has little to worry about in that department.

Well open your eyes next time.

That Morairty thing if true, is an absolute joke. I can understand why we'd want Francis, but we have other welsh back-row players in Wales that are playing very well. Okay I know they're all open-sides, but we could move Warburton across to 6 then look at Tips, Navidi, Cudd, Cub for the 7 jersey (probably in that order but each are as good as the other).

maestegmafia wrote:Morgans DC hadn't had him selected yet. Still uncapped. I don't think they'll rush him in.

There hasn't really been the need to make that decision yet and not saying it will be the case this time but will be an interesting decision. Likewise with Rhodri Jones if he gets selected.

The Saint wrote:That Morairty thing if true, is an absolute joke. I can understand why we'd want Francis, but we have other welsh back-row players in Wales that are playing very well. Okay I know they're all open-sides, but we could move Warburton across to 6 then look at Tips, Navidi, Cudd, Cub for the 7 jersey (probably in that order but each are as good as the other).

Saint,

I agree in a way, I haven't got a problem with expanding our pool/depth of players neither have I got a problem with us picking players outside Wales but like you mentioned there are some very good players busting a gut in that position currently at the Regions and I think it would be a huge kick in the teeth if he got the nod ahead of the likes of Cudd, Navidi, Davies etc.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

The Saint wrote:That Morairty thing if true, is an absolute joke. I can understand why we'd want Francis, but we have other welsh back-row players in Wales that are playing very well. Okay I know they're all open-sides, but we could move Warburton across to 6 then look at Tips, Navidi, Cudd, Cub for the 7 jersey (probably in that order but each are as good as the other).

Saint,

I agree in a way, I haven't got a problem with expanding our pool/depth of players neither have I got a problem with us picking players outside Wales but like you mentioned there are some very good players busting a gut in that position currently at the Regions and I think it would be a huge kick in the teeth if he got the nod ahead of the likes of Cudd, Navidi, Davies etc.

Moriarty was outstanding yesterday for Glos and is a really tough 6/8. As you said, those other players are all 7s with the potential exception of Navidi who I see now as more of an 8.

Other than Lydiate, who are our top class blindsides? Shingler, Turnbull, King? None of those guys have really set the world alight.

chris_501 wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

The Saint wrote:That Morairty thing if true, is an absolute joke. I can understand why we'd want Francis, but we have other welsh back-row players in Wales that are playing very well. Okay I know they're all open-sides, but we could move Warburton across to 6 then look at Tips, Navidi, Cudd, Cub for the 7 jersey (probably in that order but each are as good as the other).

Saint,

I agree in a way, I haven't got a problem with expanding our pool/depth of players neither have I got a problem with us picking players outside Wales but like you mentioned there are some very good players busting a gut in that position currently at the Regions and I think it would be a huge kick in the teeth if he got the nod ahead of the likes of Cudd, Navidi, Davies etc.

Moriarty was outstanding yesterday for Glos and is a really tough 6/8. As you said, those other players are all 7s with the potential exception of Navidi who I see now as more of an 8.

Other than Lydiate, who are our top class blindsides? Shingler, Turnbull, King? None of those guys have really set the world alight.

Going into the WC if we had to then I would play Warburton or Faletau over Moriarty at 6 at the moment. Get him in training sqaud yes but with future in mind

For my liking we need to add Francis and Moriarty to the training squad and also try and cap them in one of the warm up games, we are not England or New Zealand or South Africa, we do not have an endless pool of strength, yes others who are playing in Wales should take president over them, but we need as much depth as we can possibly have, and adding and capping these kids would do us no harm what so ever. Perhaps, seeing as they are then tied to Wales, we could see the regions trying to sign them, making the regions stronger at the same time.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

chris_501 wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

The Saint wrote:That Morairty thing if true, is an absolute joke. I can understand why we'd want Francis, but we have other welsh back-row players in Wales that are playing very well. Okay I know they're all open-sides, but we could move Warburton across to 6 then look at Tips, Navidi, Cudd, Cub for the 7 jersey (probably in that order but each are as good as the other).

Saint,

I agree in a way, I haven't got a problem with expanding our pool/depth of players neither have I got a problem with us picking players outside Wales but like you mentioned there are some very good players busting a gut in that position currently at the Regions and I think it would be a huge kick in the teeth if he got the nod ahead of the likes of Cudd, Navidi, Davies etc.

Moriarty was outstanding yesterday for Glos and is a really tough 6/8. As you said, those other players are all 7s with the potential exception of Navidi who I see now as more of an 8.

Other than Lydiate, who are our top class blindsides? Shingler, Turnbull, King? None of those guys have really set the world alight.

Going into the WC if we had to then I would play Warburton or Faletau over Moriarty at 6 at the moment.  Get him in training sqaud yes but with future in mind

We can't afford to ignore any talent. We still have little depth in many positions and if Moriarty is eligible and wants to play for Wales, Gatland should take a look at him. He was outstanding yesterday - certainly Gloucester's best player on the field.

That was the best performance I have seen from Moriarty. I woudl say that from a Welsh point of view at least looking at him makes sense. From his own point of view - well it is complicated. England are unlikely to come knocking in the immediate future and he probably views himself as Welsh. However losing his EQP status would harm his employment prospects in England.

LondonTiger wrote:However losing his EQP status would harm his employment prospects in England.

That should never happen, and I hope it would never happen also.

Why LD?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why LD?

Because where a person is playing should have NO barring on who he represents at international level, if I was playing in England and I was told I would have to either play for England or find a job elsewhere I would be seeking legal advice.

LordDowlais wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:However losing his EQP status would harm his employment prospects in England.

That should never happen, and I hope it would never happen also.

AP teams have to play a minimum number of EQP players to qualify for rather large central funding. If Moriarty was to lose his EQP status then come the next contract negotiation with Gloucester he is less valuable to them. Glaws will not pressure him to say no to Wales, but equally they will not pay him more than they think he is worth. Should Moriarty choose not to renew with Glaws then he would be less valuable to other AP clubs.

What is wrong with that?

shoudl Wales select him in a training squad I hope it will be because they are genuinely interested and not just to tie him up. (Though of course he would have to appear in a WC warmup for that to happen). So long as he does not deprive a worthy contender of a spot it is very much worth Wales looking at him -see how he matchjes up in training.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why LD?

Because where a person is playing should have NO barring on who he represents at international level, if I was playing in England and I was told I would have to either play for England or find a job elsewhere I would be seeking legal advice.

You don't get told that though.  Rugby is a Coach or DoR led game.  Players are picked because of what they can bring to the team.  The Coach has the right to choose/buy/pick players that he believes will add to the team.  He doesn't have to be 'honest' about those reasons - all he has to be is a coach and have his 'legitimate' reasons  

You can't have laws that requires a Team to Hire a Player that they don't want.   That would be team selection by Court Order.  There is no way that any court could ever prove that a player is unwanted because of their preferred International Representation status. There is no way a court could ever disprove the notion that the coach or DoR simply didn't think the player fitted in with their plans for the present or future.

Having said that, I don't think any right minded coach would every deny themselves a player simply because of National Affiliation of that player - certainly in England, that has many sides to choose their own Internationals from.  And I think the truth of that has been well proven at this point in any case.

I agree with that SF, but what I would not want to see is a coach/owner trying to persuade a player to play for another country so that he can still play for the club without compromising them.

Put it this way. The only difference between Moriarty playing for Wales or England in Glaws eyes is that they get money from the RFU for having another English qualified player. They would obviously prefer him to pick England. That and the fact he's going to be more available to them than if he chose Wales.

LordDowlais wrote:I agree with that SF, but what I would not want to see is a coach/owner trying to persuade a player to play for another country so that he can still play for the club without compromising them.

I did explain earlier as to how this could affect Moriarty. I agree that Clubs should neither influence which country they appear for nor, so long as it is in the IW, when. they are however perfectly entitled to offer a salary commensurate to the players value to the club. In this case Moriarty woudl be offered a lower salary as a WQP player than he would as an EQP one.

Dominic Day?

Tom James and Dominic Day! No one saw those coming.

Backs: Gareth Davies (Scarlets), Mike Phillips (Racing Metro), Rhys Webb (Ospreys), Lloyd Williams (Cardiff Blues), Gareth Anscombe (Cardiff Blues), Dan Biggar (Ospreys), James Hook (Gloucester Rugby), Matthew Morgan (Bristol Rugby), Rhys Patchell (Cardiff Blues), Rhys Priestland (Scarlets), Cory Allen (Cardiff Blues), Jack Dixon (Newport Gwent Dragons), Tyler Morgan (Newport Gwent Dragons), Jamie Roberts (Racing Metro), Scott Williams (Scarlets), Hallam Amos (Newport Gwent Dragons), Alex Cuthbert (Cardiff Blues), Leigh Halfpenny (Toulon), Tom James (Exeter Chiefs), George North (Northampton Saints), Eli Walker (Ospreys), Liam Williams (Scarlets).
Forwards: Rob Evans (Scarlets), Tomas Francis (Exeter Chiefs), Paul James (Bath Rugby), Aaron Jarvis (Ospreys), Gethin Jenkins (Cardiff Blues), Rhodri Jones (Scarlets), Samson Lee (Scarlets), Nicky Smith (Ospreys), Scott Baldwin (Ospreys), Kristian Dacey (Cardiff Blues), Richard Hibbard (Gloucester Rugby), Ken Owens (Scarlets), Jake Ball (Scarlets), Luke Charteris (Racing Metro), Dominic Day (Bath Rugby), Bradley Davies (Wasps), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys), Rory Thornton (Ospreys), Dan Baker (Ospreys), Taulupe Faletau (Newport Gwent Dragons), James King (Ospreys), Dan Lydiate (Ospreys), Ross Moriarty (Gloucester Rugby), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys), Sam Warburton (CAPT - Cardiff Blues).

Ben John and Josh Navidi can be pretty upset considering the number of players selected.

The 21-year-old Moriarty has played for England Under-20, but qualifies for Wales through his father - former dual code Welsh international Paul - while his father Richard is a former Wales captain.

a man with two dads!!!!!!

Some injured and U20 players also included, yet still no room for Navidi somehow.

wales606 wrote:Tom James and Dominic Day! No one saw those coming.

How much rugby have those two played this season?

LondonTiger wrote:

The 21-year-old Moriarty has played for England Under-20, but qualifies for Wales through his father - former dual code Welsh international Paul - while his father Richard is a former Wales captain.

a man with two dads!!!!!!

Well it is the 21st century. They're probably married, too.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

wales606 wrote:Tom James and Dominic Day! No one saw those coming.

How much rugby have those two played this season?

Not sure about Day, but I haven't seen Tom James on many teamsheets

I did wonder.

LondonTiger wrote:That was the best performance I have seen from Moriarty. I woudl say that from a Welsh point of view at least looking at him makes sense. From his own point of view - well it is complicated. England are unlikely to come knocking in the immediate future and he probably views himself as Welsh. However losing his EQP status would harm his employment prospects in England.

Questionable. Thanks for developing him though anyway. We'll likely be capping Francis too.

wales606 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

wales606 wrote:Tom James and Dominic Day! No one saw those coming.

How much rugby have those two played this season?

Not sure about Day, but I haven't seen Tom James on many teamsheets

Day very much 3rd lock behind Attwood and Hooper at Bath.

James has appeared about 20 times for Exeter this season, but only 3 premiership starts amongst that.

Wonder if we could have put him in against the Baa Baas if there was a hint of this, or would that not have tied him to England as it was a non cap game?

He's far more likely to feature in future than say Jon bloody Fisher was

The Saint wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:That was the best performance I have seen from Moriarty. I woudl say that from a Welsh point of view at least looking at him makes sense. From his own point of view - well it is complicated. England are unlikely to come knocking in the immediate future and he probably views himself as Welsh. However losing his EQP status would harm his employment prospects in England.

Questionable. Thanks for developing him though anyway. We'll likely be capping Francis too.

Welsh parents and grew up mainly in Wales (after dad stopped playing RL that is).

BamBam wrote:Wonder if we could have put him in against the Baa Baas if there was a hint of this, or would that not have tied him to England as it was a non cap game?

He's far more likely to feature in future than say Jon bloody Fisher was

1) non cap game so would not be tied.
2) He was unavailable as playing fo rGlaws yesterday

LondonTiger wrote:

The Saint wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:That was the best performance I have seen from Moriarty. I woudl say that from a Welsh point of view at least looking at him makes sense. From his own point of view - well it is complicated. England are unlikely to come knocking in the immediate future and he probably views himself as Welsh. However losing his EQP status would harm his employment prospects in England.

Questionable. Thanks for developing him though anyway. We'll likely be capping Francis too.

Welsh parents and grew up mainly in Wales (after dad stopped playing RL that is).

True. But apart from a stint in the Ospreys set-up hasn't his pro rugby development all been in England? Makes you wonder why he'd pull on a white jersey if he was Welsh.

Day has been playing fairly regularly for Bath at lock and 6 this season, played in some big games. A workhorse doubt whether he will make the final cut but will push those in his position all the way

I thought the reason Day left the Scarlets was to push for a place in the England set-up?

The Saint wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

The Saint wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:That was the best performance I have seen from Moriarty. I woudl say that from a Welsh point of view at least looking at him makes sense. From his own point of view - well it is complicated. England are unlikely to come knocking in the immediate future and he probably views himself as Welsh. However losing his EQP status would harm his employment prospects in England.

Questionable. Thanks for developing him though anyway. We'll likely be capping Francis too.

Welsh parents and grew up mainly in Wales (after dad stopped playing RL that is).

True. But apart from a stint in the Ospreys set-up hasn't his pro rugby development all been in England? Makes you wonder why he'd pull on a white jersey if he was Welsh.

This explains a lot: http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/who-ross-moriarty-everything-you-9354013

How do you qualify for England U19, etc. Do you just need to be playing rubgy in England?

Delighted and disappointed with Moriarty's call up in equal measures. He has been excellent all season and yesterday he was the stand out player. I am delighted for him to get this recognition. I am disappointed he has not chosen England, however, despite his U20 appearances he was always likely to choose Wales. His call up shouldn't effect his Glaws' place as we have a good number of EQP players across the squad.

He was born in England Saint, as well as playing rugby at Hartpury college then gloucester.

HKC - not saying that Glaws would let him go - just that any contract offer probably not as high for him as a non EQP.

For me I think that: Lloyd Williams, Matthew Morgan, Tom James, Dom Day, Rory Thornton and Ross Moriarty are pretty lucky to be in the squad. Particularly when you consider that: Aled Davies, Sam Davies, Dan Evans, Navidi, James Davies, Aaron Shingler and Turnbull have all missed out!

The Saint wrote:I thought the reason Day left the Scarlets was to push for a place in the England set-up?

That was one of the ones that was doing the rounds at the time. But I guess seeing as he isn't good enough for them, and Gats seems to have forgotten totally about this 'play in Wales to play for Wales' stuff, that Dom will get capped, much like Morriaty in the pre-RWC games, and then dropped yet again.

Seagultaf wrote:For me I think that: Lloyd Williams, Matthew Morgan, Tom James, Dom Day, Rory Thornton and Ross Moriarty are pretty lucky to be in the squad. Particularly when you consider that: Aled Davies, Sam Davies, Dan Evans, Navidi, James Davies, Aaron Shingler and Turnbull have all missed out!

In fairness to Lloyd Williams, he is probably playing better now than he was when he was a bench regular for Wales.

I also can't see any of those players making the final squad, and Moriarty and Thornton are there for the future.

Dan Evans, Navidi, Davies and Turnball should be pretty upset though.

Perhaps I'm just feeling a bit low today, but when I look at this extended squad I'm left with the same feeling that I've had for a while. Our best XV looks pretty good and when we play well we are competitive. As soon as a few injuries hit or we look to rotate some of the first choice players - not so good. Excepting the starting XV and obvious bench, this squad looks pretty average. Our WC depends so much on the best staying fit.