if Manny beats Money...

Hey fellas

Simple question that I wanted your to hear your opinions on. Should Manny win in 3 weeks,would you place him above Mayweather on your ATG list? Do many of you have Manny above Floyd already?

Cheers!

One is 37 the other 35......

Certainly move Manny up a few spots....

JMM would have to be added to the equation....

Mayweather slightly higher..

I think they belong alongside one another right now. I guess it would depend on the manner of the win (and whether either looks like damaged goods). If both look like they have in recent fights and Pacquiao manages to win convincingly then yes, he'd likely rank ahead of Floyd.

Depends how he wins

Its generally accepted by boxing community that since their welterweight primes (lets say 2009 for argument sake) that manny has regressed moreso than floyd

So if manny stops him a case can be made, but if its a close close decisio then probably bot as mayweather is some way ahead of him in the all time great stakes at the moment

Tricky to say because as others have pointed out, the nature of the win might have sway people's opinions, not to mention that it's unlikely to be the final fight for either man. What they do afterwards could still play a part.

The only thing I'd really be comfortable in saying is that, if he beats Mayweather on May 2, at the very least Manny would have put himself in contention to be higher than Mayweather and there'd be a case for it. I certainly can't see a scenario where him being higher would be a universal or even high majority acceptance unless he outboxes Mayweather for a good few rounds and then gets him out of there. If he loses then I don't think there'd be all that much room for debate on the issue and a high majority would have to go with Mayweather, rather than the 60-odd percent (at a guess and going from my own experience) he holds now.

Although if Pacquiao beats Mayweather on May 2 - again, doesn't matter how as long as it's legit - I might give him and edge over Whitaker as the greatest southpaw of all time based on his resume, despite me believing that Pea was the better boxer and talent. That'd be one to ponder if Pacquiao can defy expectations in three week's time.

As with most others on here, it comes down to manner of victory. I expect Floyd to win but not by much although I'd be happy with either of them forcing a stoppage due to being completely dominant over the other. However, Manny would have to box Floyd's ears off and make him quit like a dog for even the most ardent Floyd fan to suggest Manny be placed higher. Dislike Mayweather immensely and despite his pretty turgid showings of late, can't make an argument for Manny to be higher than him at this time.

The problem is that should Manny dominate Floyd before forcing a stoppage or vice versa, it has a far more damaging effect....namely, no-one will pay to watch a rematch which is why Mayweather will do everything to nullify Manny, stink the place out and seek a megabucks rematch in the summer as that's what matters most to him (his "legacy" be damned)

Reckon so yes. I mean after all, if Manny beats Floyd, he would have beaten a guy with "18 years at the top". Does Floyd have a win against a guy with that kinda record?

On a serious note, think if Manny had been able to at any time clinically defeat Marquez, he'd probably be interchangeable with Floyd. A standalone win over Mayweather would for me edge it.

DAVE667 wrote:As with most others on here, it comes down to manner of victory. I expect Floyd to win but not by much although I'd be happy with either of them forcing a stoppage due to being completely dominant over the other. However, Manny would have to box Floyd's ears off and make him quit like a dog for even the most ardent Floyd fan to suggest Manny be placed higher. Dislike Mayweather immensely and despite his pretty turgid showings of late, can't make an argument for Manny to be higher than him at this time.

The problem is that should Manny dominate Floyd before forcing a stoppage or vice versa, it has a far more damaging effect....namely, no-one will pay to watch a rematch which is why Mayweather will do everything to nullify Manny, stink the place out and seek a megabucks rematch in the summer as that's what matters most to him (his "legacy" be damned)

I'm a Floyd Fan and if Manny deserves the win then I think he should be placed higher. Lot of Floyd and Manny fans are idiots.

You have to tell it like it is.

I have Floyd around top 10 now and Manny around 25-30.

If Floyd wins both stay were they are.

If Manny wins he will possibly go top 15 and floyd will drop to around 20 (depending on the result being fair)

Definitley think Floyd has more to lose on this, in my opinion!

DAVE667 wrote:As with most others on here, it comes down to manner of victory. I expect Floyd to win but not by much although I'd be happy with either of them forcing a stoppage due to being completely dominant over the other. However, Manny would have to box Floyd's ears off and make him quit like a dog for even the most ardent Floyd fan to suggest Manny be placed higher. Dislike Mayweather immensely and despite his pretty turgid showings of late, can't make an argument for Manny to be higher than him at this time.

The problem is that should Manny dominate Floyd before forcing a stoppage or vice versa, it has a far more damaging effect....namely, no-one will pay to watch a rematch which is why Mayweather will do everything to nullify Manny, stink the place out and seek a megabucks rematch in the summer as that's what matters most to him (his "legacy" be damned)

I think there's a valid argument to be put forth:

Pacquiao has the better record south of welterweight (Barrera, Morales and Marquez probably all make a top 100 all time great listing whereas Castillo, Corrales and Hernandez probably don't - almost certainly don't in fact).

At 140-154, they've fought similar men and Pacquiao has dealt with them all more impressively (Hatton, Oscar, Cotto, Mosley). The rest is a wash (Pacquiao beat Bradley and Margarito; Mayweather beat Canelo and Judah).

Mayweather dominated Marquez - a guy Pacquiao has problems with stylistically (think Ali-Norton). Mayweather did face a rather depleted version, however (and came in over the agreed weight limit to boot). The version that knocked out Pacquiao was an entirely different physical proposition.

Mayweather's consistency is a major plus but Pacquiao has beaten the better men overall (or beaten the ones they've both faced - barring Marquez - more comprehensively).

Depends on your criteria I guess but based on quality of opposition/quality of wins, Pacquiao has a slight edge.

If Mayweather beats Pacquiao easily, would you rate him a bit higher then Haz?

Or is it too late for him.

The way I see it, regardless of the outcome Manny can't lose. Most (casual and hardcore) view Mayweather ahead of him in the ATG.

If Manny wins, he moves ahead

If Manny loses, it doesn't change his legacy and Mayweather will still have accusations that he dodged him until it was too late.

AdamT wrote:If Mayweather beats Pacquiao easily, would you rate him a bit higher then Haz?

Or is it too late for him.

Unless Pacquiao suddenly falls to bits and looks horribly shot then I think you'd have to separate them both by elevating Floyd. Much depends on the manner of the win.

He'll likely receive a huge boost initially ala Lewis when he beat up Tyson. If he dominates Pacquiao, there'll be knee-jerk articles discussing whether he's the best of all time followed by a backlash of articles stating he isn't (such is boxing writin/blogging/forum natter).

Would you really say that Manny dealth with Sugar Shane more impressively than Mayweather did, Haz, or are you just playing devil's advocate? Mayweather put on a masterclass, that second round wobble aside. He beat Mosley to a pulp. The Mosley-Pacquiao fight was a total stinker where Pacquiao's cutting edge and nasty attitude seemed to totally vanish and he was inclined to just plug away while carrying Mosley somewhat. Mosley's effort was pretty poor and he didn't look as if he came to rumble at all, really. The dozens of friendly glove taps were just about the only times Mosley connected with anything cleanly (the 'knockdown' he was credited with was a joke).

I don't think either guy (Manny and Shane, I mean) did the slightest thing to enhance their reputation in that one. In fact, it was the start of a string of underwhelming (even disappointing) performances from Manny which he's only just started correcting.

hazharrison wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:As with most others on here, it comes down to manner of victory. I expect Floyd to win but not by much although I'd be happy with either of them forcing a stoppage due to being completely dominant over the other. However, Manny would have to box Floyd's ears off and make him quit like a dog for even the most ardent Floyd fan to suggest Manny be placed higher. Dislike Mayweather immensely and despite his pretty turgid showings of late, can't make an argument for Manny to be higher than him at this time.

The problem is that should Manny dominate Floyd before forcing a stoppage or vice versa, it has a far more damaging effect....namely, no-one will pay to watch a rematch which is why Mayweather will do everything to nullify Manny, stink the place out and seek a megabucks rematch in the summer as that's what matters most to him (his "legacy" be damned)

I think there's a valid argument to be put forth:

Pacquiao has the better record south of welterweight (Barrera, Morales and Marquez probably all make a top 100 all time great listing whereas Castillo, Corrales and Hernandez probably don't - almost certainly don't in fact).

At 140-154, they've fought similar men and Pacquiao has dealt with them all more impressively (Hatton, Oscar, Cotto, Mosley). The rest is a wash (Pacquiao beat Bradley and Margarito; Mayweather beat Canelo and Judah).

Mayweather dominated Marquez - a guy Pacquiao has problems with stylistically (think Ali-Norton). Mayweather did face a rather depleted version, however (and came in over the agreed weight limit to boot). The version that knocked out Pacquiao was an entirely different physical proposition.

Mayweather's consistency is a major plus but Pacquiao has beaten the better men overall (or beaten the ones they've both faced - barring Marquez - more comprehensively).

Depends on your criteria I guess but based on quality of opposition/quality of wins, Pacquiao has a slight edge.

However the versions of Hatton and Oscar that Manny got were far removed from the versions Floyd fought. Can't give much credit to Manny for beating up the concentration camp look-a-like version of Oscar or the Hatton whose face-first kamikaze approach to their fight was also a shocker

Pacquiao hurt shane but Floyd definielty gave him the better beating and was able to tag him a lot more with clean punches.

People say he ran from Manny. Ok but if my memory is correct, Floyd walked him down the majority of the fight.

In my opinion Floyd is going to do the same thing to Manny. He might get hurt early but I think he is going to bully him. Just my opinion of course.

We shouldn't bypass Morales and Marquez both actually beating Pacquiao, it's as if Haz overlooks that every time not to mention Morales had difficulty making 130lbs after looking crap against Raheem. We shouldn't paint it out as if Pacquiao beat an absolutely top drawer Morales because he didn't.

to be fair guys, why the f..k does Pacquiao get a pass for his defeats.

He lost fights early in his career, that can not be over looked.

Of course he has become a great fighter since but it should still count that, he has not only been beat, but has been stopped a few times.

Also if Manny has slightly better wins (in some peoples eyes, in mine there are about equal) then surely the fact he has a good few losses should score him lower than Floyd.

88Chris05 wrote:Would you really say that Manny dealth with Sugar Shane more impressively than Mayweather did, Haz, or are you just playing devil's advocate? Mayweather put on a masterclass, that second round wobble aside. He beat Mosley to a pulp. The Mosley-Pacquiao fight was a total stinker where Pacquiao's cutting edge and nasty attitude seemed to totally vanish and he was inclined to just plug away while carrying Mosley somewhat. Mosley's effort was pretty poor and he didn't look as if he came to rumble at all, really. The dozens of friendly glove taps were just about the only times Mosley connected with anything cleanly (the 'knockdown' he was credited with was a joke).

I don't think either guy (Manny and Shane, I mean) did the slightest thing to enhance their reputation in that one. In fact, it was the start of a string of underwhelming (even disappointing) performances from Manny which he's only just started correcting.

Mosley was cowed by Pacquiao's power. He floored Shane with a punch that barely connected - that's what made Mosley flee and play tappy glove.

Mosley was shot against both men - let's get that straight - but he had Floyd in desperate trouble nonetheless (albeit for only a fleeting moment). I'm not sure beating up a shot fighter who could no longer pull the trigger is a masterclass either (although Floyd fans do tend to throw that one out every time he fights).

Pacquiao dealt with a similarly jaded version of Mosley slightly more easily than Floyd did (he certainly wasn't hurt or wobbly legged). It's not much of an argument to be fair - chalk it up as 1-1.

DAVE667 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:As with most others on here, it comes down to manner of victory. I expect Floyd to win but not by much although I'd be happy with either of them forcing a stoppage due to being completely dominant over the other. However, Manny would have to box Floyd's ears off and make him quit like a dog for even the most ardent Floyd fan to suggest Manny be placed higher. Dislike Mayweather immensely and despite his pretty turgid showings of late, can't make an argument for Manny to be higher than him at this time.

The problem is that should Manny dominate Floyd before forcing a stoppage or vice versa, it has a far more damaging effect....namely, no-one will pay to watch a rematch which is why Mayweather will do everything to nullify Manny, stink the place out and seek a megabucks rematch in the summer as that's what matters most to him (his "legacy" be damned)

I think there's a valid argument to be put forth:

Pacquiao has the better record south of welterweight (Barrera, Morales and Marquez probably all make a top 100 all time great listing whereas Castillo, Corrales and Hernandez probably don't - almost certainly don't in fact).

At 140-154, they've fought similar men and Pacquiao has dealt with them all more impressively (Hatton, Oscar, Cotto, Mosley). The rest is a wash (Pacquiao beat Bradley and Margarito; Mayweather beat Canelo and Judah).

Mayweather dominated Marquez - a guy Pacquiao has problems with stylistically (think Ali-Norton). Mayweather did face a rather depleted version, however (and came in over the agreed weight limit to boot). The version that knocked out Pacquiao was an entirely different physical proposition.

Mayweather's consistency is a major plus but Pacquiao has beaten the better men overall (or beaten the ones they've both faced - barring Marquez - more comprehensively).

Depends on your criteria I guess but based on quality of opposition/quality of wins, Pacquiao has a slight edge.

However the versions of Hatton and Oscar that Manny got were far removed from the versions Floyd fought. Can't give much credit to Manny for beating up the concentration camp look-a-like version of Oscar or the Hatton whose face-first kamikaze approach to their fight was also a shocker

I agree Floyd faced a better Oscar and a more organised Hatton but I'd argue they weren't that far removed from the versions Pacquiao faced. I don't think the Oscar who faced Floyd - a part-time boxer at this point - would have fared much better. Pacquiao was on fire that night.

Hatton always fought the same way - he just walked onto some serious power in that fight (power that has strangely deserted Pacquiao despite the old axiom that a fighter's punch is the last thing to leave them).

Hammersmith harrier wrote:We shouldn't bypass Morales and Marquez both actually beating Pacquiao, it's as if Haz overlooks that every time not to mention Morales had difficulty making 130lbs after looking crap against Raheem. We shouldn't paint it out as if Pacquiao beat an absolutely top drawer Morales because he didn't.

I don't overlook those losses - I just don't place as much stock in one great fighter losing to another as some on here. If you fight a great fighter a few times (he fought Morales three times, Marquez four) then you're unlikely to win all of them.

AdamT wrote:to be fair guys, why the f..k does Pacquiao get a pass for his defeats.

He lost fights early in his career, that can not be over looked.

Of course he has become a great fighter since but it should still count that, he has not only been beat, but has been stopped a few times.

Also if Manny has slightly better wins (in some peoples eyes, in mine there are about equal) then surely the fact he has a good few losses should score him lower than Floyd.

I don't place much emphasise on losing to Singsurat or Torrecampo as I tend to rate him on his 122lb exploits and above, if we get into the realms of calling him a former flyweight etc. then those losses have to be factored in. He does however get a free ride for Morales and Marquez for reasons unbeknown to me, if we look past pound for pound then I doubt Morales is a better 130lber than either Hernandez or Corrales.

Beyond that if a Mayweather fan mentioned Marquez being p4p number three then in return you'd hear that he's a blown up old lightweight, there's a lot of bias and inconsistency in the debate.

Pacquiao beat Hatton, De La Hoya and Mosley better but Mayweather faced better versions of all three coming off good wins, i'll give Pacquiao Cotto but largely Mayweather has the edge when it comes to common opponents.

Don't think anyone is denying that Mosley had seen better days, Haz, but I don't see how you can deny that, as a performance, Mayweather's showing against Shane clearly outshone Pacquiao's.

The scorecards might have indicated that there was nowt in it (can't remember the specifics on that front without checking) but Mayweather showed the full array of his skills whereas nobody thinks back to the Mosley fight when they talk about top performances by Manny or fights which showcased him at his best. Pacquiao clearly wasn't in the same kind of ruthless mood as he was against Cotto, for instance - Miguel got very defensive and back-foot happy after Pacquiao had beaten the hell out of him for a few rounds but Manny still retained his cutting edge and walked him down. Likewise Mosley lost heart against Mayweather but Floyd still gave him a chasing. Pacquiao just did enough. Mosley-Pacquiao was a dreadful fight and neither guy put on a show.

I found it pretty ridiculous in 2012 when some Mayweather fanatcis were trying to argue that his win over Cotto was shomehow better than Manny's, but similarly it seems odd to me that anyone could watch Floyd-Mosley and Manny-Mosley and argue that Pacquiao's performance or win was superior. Again, leaving out how you felt about Mosley's condition at the time, do you really think Pacquiao looked anything like a great fighter in that fight? Mayweather on the other hand did, in my opinion.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

AdamT wrote:to be fair guys, why the f..k does Pacquiao get a pass for his defeats.

He lost fights early in his career, that can not be over looked.

Of course he has become a great fighter since but it should still count that, he has not only been beat, but has been stopped a few times.

Also if Manny has slightly better wins (in some peoples eyes, in mine there are about equal) then surely the fact he has a good few losses should score him lower than Floyd.

I don't place much emphasise on losing to Singsurat or Torrecampo as I tend to rate him on his 122lb exploits and above, if we get into the realms of calling him a former flyweight etc. then those losses have to be factored in. He does however get a free ride for Morales and Marquez for reasons unbeknown to me, if we look past pound for pound then I doubt Morales is a better 130lber than either Hernandez or Corrales.

Beyond that if a Mayweather fan mentioned Marquez being p4p number three then in return you'd hear that he's a blown up old lightweight, there's a lot of bias and inconsistency in the debate.

Pacquiao beat Hatton, De La Hoya and Mosley better but Mayweather faced better versions of all three coming off good wins, i'll give Pacquiao Cotto but largely Mayweather has the edge when it comes to common opponents.

Cotto being the best man either has faced presumably?

Hatton faced Pacquiao at light welterweight. Hatton was a 140 pounder and no more. He wasn't as effective at 147 lbs. (against Collazo, Floyd and Senchenko) by his own admission (and the evidence those fights present).

Oscar and Mosley were both washed up in the context of what they'd been.

Morales looked a highly effective super feather against Pacquiao in their first fight (one of his greatest wins - if not the greatest win on his record). The Raheem fight was at lightweight - a tune-up that he obviously didn't take as seriously (and paid the price for).

Lest we forget he'd just beaten Espadas (great win), Chavez and Carlos Hernandez (while pushing Barrera to the wire). I'm not sure your argument holds up.

Contrast that with Marquez who trained for Floyd by drinking pee and throwing rocks about. He looked like a fat lightweight and was then hoodwinked on the scales (a real dirty trick on Mayweather's part). He was a completely different physical specimen against Pacquiao (after enlisting PED cheat Memo Hernandez and growing muscles like Popeye).

hazharrison wrote:

At 140-154, they've fought similar men and Pacquiao has dealt with them all more impressively (Hatton, Oscar, Cotto, Mosley).

In terms of how the fights went, then yes Manny was way more impressive but when you consider the circumstances around them

Hatton - obesity and coke finally caught up with him IMHO. Training camp was a riot. Already spanked by Floyd.

Oscar - the weight draining issue

Cotto - the weight draining issue

Mosley - too friendly and the fight was a glorified sparring session really

After May 2 I will probably give up on boxing. Definitely on Mayweather and Pacquio.

I don't really give two hoots, who people rate higher. For me if Mayweather beats the dung out of Manny he is better and vice versa.

88Chris05 wrote:Don't think anyone is denying that Mosley had seen better days, Haz, but I don't see how you can deny that, as a performance, Mayweather's showing against Shane clearly outshone Pacquiao's.

The scorecards might have indicated that there was nowt in it (can't remember the specifics on that front without checking) but Mayweather showed the full array of his skills whereas nobody thinks back to the Mosley fight when they talk about top performances by Manny or fights which showcased him at his best. Pacquiao clearly wasn't in the same kind of ruthless mood as he was against Cotto, for instance - Miguel got very defensive and back-foot happy after Pacquiao had beaten the hell out of him for a few rounds but Manny still retained his cutting edge and walked him down. Likewise Mosley lost heart against Mayweather but Floyd still gave him a chasing. Pacquiao just did enough. Mosley-Pacquiao was a dreadful fight and neither guy put on a show.

I found it pretty ridiculous in 2012 when some Mayweather fanatcis were trying to argue that his win over Cotto was shomehow better than Manny's, but similarly it seems odd to me that anyone could watch Floyd-Mosley and Manny-Mosley and argue that Pacquiao's performance or win was superior. Again, leaving out how you felt about Mosley's condition at the time, do you really think Pacquiao looked anything like a great fighter in that fight? Mayweather on the other hand did, in my opinion.

If you look at it in context - Pacquiao cruised to an easy win over a faded fighter who'd obviously seen better days. He took it easy on him.

Floyd didn't and so put more of a whupping on him but he was also badly hurt by a shot fighter. He may have performed better (in terms of bullying Shane) but as a win, it doesn't hold any more water.

Group Cpt Lionel Mandrake wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

At 140-154, they've fought similar men and Pacquiao has dealt with them all more impressively (Hatton, Oscar, Cotto, Mosley).

In terms of how the fights went, then yes Manny was way more impressive but when you consider the circumstances around them

Hatton - obesity and coke finally caught up with him IMHO. Training camp was a riot. Already spanked by Floyd.

Oscar - the weight draining issue

Cotto - the weight draining issue

Mosley - too friendly and the fight was a glorified sparring session really

Anyone can play this game, though, can't they?

Hatton - beer monster.

Oscar - part time fighter.

Cotto - ravaged by Pacquiao.

Mosley - shot.

hazharrison wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:Don't think anyone is denying that Mosley had seen better days, Haz, but I don't see how you can deny that, as a performance, Mayweather's showing against Shane clearly outshone Pacquiao's.

The scorecards might have indicated that there was nowt in it (can't remember the specifics on that front without checking) but Mayweather showed the full array of his skills whereas nobody thinks back to the Mosley fight when they talk about top performances by Manny or fights which showcased him at his best. Pacquiao clearly wasn't in the same kind of ruthless mood as he was against Cotto, for instance - Miguel got very defensive and back-foot happy after Pacquiao had beaten the hell out of him for a few rounds but Manny still retained his cutting edge and walked him down. Likewise Mosley lost heart against Mayweather but Floyd still gave him a chasing. Pacquiao just did enough. Mosley-Pacquiao was a dreadful fight and neither guy put on a show.

I found it pretty ridiculous in 2012 when some Mayweather fanatcis were trying to argue that his win over Cotto was shomehow better than Manny's, but similarly it seems odd to me that anyone could watch Floyd-Mosley and Manny-Mosley and argue that Pacquiao's performance or win was superior. Again, leaving out how you felt about Mosley's condition at the time, do you really think Pacquiao looked anything like a great fighter in that fight? Mayweather on the other hand did, in my opinion.

If you look at it in context - Pacquiao cruised to an easy win over a faded fighter who'd obviously seen better days. He took it easy on him.

Floyd didn't and so put more of a whupping on him but he was also badly hurt by a shot fighter. He may have performed better (in terms of bullying Shane) but as a win, it doesn't hold any more water.

What about the fact Mayweather fought Mosley after the Margarito beatdown and Manny fought him after the Mora struggle? Does that not count?

hazharrison wrote:

Group Cpt Lionel Mandrake wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

At 140-154, they've fought similar men and Pacquiao has dealt with them all more impressively (Hatton, Oscar, Cotto, Mosley).

In terms of how the fights went, then yes Manny was way more impressive but when you consider the circumstances around them

Hatton - obesity and coke finally caught up with him IMHO. Training camp was a riot. Already spanked by Floyd.

Oscar - the weight draining issue

Cotto - the weight draining issue

Mosley - too friendly and the fight was a glorified sparring session really

Anyone can play this game, though, can't they?

Hatton - beer monster.

Oscar - part time fighter.

Cotto - ravaged by Pacquiao.

Mosley - shot.

Pacquiao stopped 3 times, 5 losses.

Mayweather, think glove touched canvas couple times and no losses.

Adam......Check out some of Haz articles on Mayweather before you get riled......

You'll see what you're debating with................and whether it's worth it !!

Naw I wont get too riled.

The guy clearly hardly rates Floyd, he is entitled to his opinion, as I am to mine.

It's all good fun.

AdamT wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:Don't think anyone is denying that Mosley had seen better days, Haz, but I don't see how you can deny that, as a performance, Mayweather's showing against Shane clearly outshone Pacquiao's.

The scorecards might have indicated that there was nowt in it (can't remember the specifics on that front without checking) but Mayweather showed the full array of his skills whereas nobody thinks back to the Mosley fight when they talk about top performances by Manny or fights which showcased him at his best. Pacquiao clearly wasn't in the same kind of ruthless mood as he was against Cotto, for instance - Miguel got very defensive and back-foot happy after Pacquiao had beaten the hell out of him for a few rounds but Manny still retained his cutting edge and walked him down. Likewise Mosley lost heart against Mayweather but Floyd still gave him a chasing. Pacquiao just did enough. Mosley-Pacquiao was a dreadful fight and neither guy put on a show.

I found it pretty ridiculous in 2012 when some Mayweather fanatcis were trying to argue that his win over Cotto was shomehow better than Manny's, but similarly it seems odd to me that anyone could watch Floyd-Mosley and Manny-Mosley and argue that Pacquiao's performance or win was superior. Again, leaving out how you felt about Mosley's condition at the time, do you really think Pacquiao looked anything like a great fighter in that fight? Mayweather on the other hand did, in my opinion.

If you look at it in context - Pacquiao cruised to an easy win over a faded fighter who'd obviously seen better days. He took it easy on him.

Floyd didn't and so put more of a whupping on him but he was also badly hurt by a shot fighter. He may have performed better (in terms of bullying Shane) but as a win, it doesn't hold any more water.

What about the fact Mayweather fought Mosley after the Margarito beatdown and Manny fought him after the Mora struggle? Does that not count?

Does any of that really matter? Mosley was no longer what he was against either man. Are we really hoping to argue that the Mosley win was one of consequence? He looked like dogsh*t against both.

hazharrison wrote:

AdamT wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:Don't think anyone is denying that Mosley had seen better days, Haz, but I don't see how you can deny that, as a performance, Mayweather's showing against Shane clearly outshone Pacquiao's.

The scorecards might have indicated that there was nowt in it (can't remember the specifics on that front without checking) but Mayweather showed the full array of his skills whereas nobody thinks back to the Mosley fight when they talk about top performances by Manny or fights which showcased him at his best. Pacquiao clearly wasn't in the same kind of ruthless mood as he was against Cotto, for instance - Miguel got very defensive and back-foot happy after Pacquiao had beaten the hell out of him for a few rounds but Manny still retained his cutting edge and walked him down. Likewise Mosley lost heart against Mayweather but Floyd still gave him a chasing. Pacquiao just did enough. Mosley-Pacquiao was a dreadful fight and neither guy put on a show.

I found it pretty ridiculous in 2012 when some Mayweather fanatcis were trying to argue that his win over Cotto was shomehow better than Manny's, but similarly it seems odd to me that anyone could watch Floyd-Mosley and Manny-Mosley and argue that Pacquiao's performance or win was superior. Again, leaving out how you felt about Mosley's condition at the time, do you really think Pacquiao looked anything like a great fighter in that fight? Mayweather on the other hand did, in my opinion.

If you look at it in context - Pacquiao cruised to an easy win over a faded fighter who'd obviously seen better days. He took it easy on him.

Floyd didn't and so put more of a whupping on him but he was also badly hurt by a shot fighter. He may have performed better (in terms of bullying Shane) but as a win, it doesn't hold any more water.

What about the fact Mayweather fought Mosley after the Margarito beatdown and Manny fought him after the Mora struggle? Does that not count?

Does any of that really matter? Mosley was no longer what he was against either man. Are we really hoping to argue that the Mosley win was one of consequence? He looked like dogsh*t against both.

Of couse it matters. When Floyd fought him he was still the man at Welter, e perhaps was not at his best but was still the biggest challengea Welter.

I agree that the Pacquiao win holds no water though as he looked clearly shot against Mora

id rate manny over mayweather if he won, mainly because mayweather is a massive d!ck and finally gives me some ammunition at him

but sadly cant see it, fully expect him to win comfortably and confirm his status as the best of his generation

AdamT wrote:Naw I wont get too riled.

The guy clearly hardly rates Floyd, he is entitled to his opinion, as I am to mine.

It's all good fun.

Of course I rate him. I just don't deify the guy. His record is what it is: calculating, lucrative and less (legacy-wise) than what it might have been had he cared as much about his historical placing as some of you all do. He doesn't. Why do you?

What's wrong with having a favourite fighter you can see flaws in?

hazharrison wrote:

AdamT wrote:Naw I wont get too riled.

The guy clearly hardly rates Floyd, he is entitled to his opinion, as I am to mine.

It's all good fun.

Of course I rate him. I just don't deify the guy. His record is what it is: calculating, lucrative and less (legacy-wise) than what it might have been had he cared as much about his historical placing as some of you all do. He doesn't. Why do you?

What's wrong with having a favourite fighter you can see flaws in?

Nothing wrong mate, we have different opinions, everyone has them. I quite enjoy the debate.

AdamT wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

AdamT wrote:Naw I wont get too riled.

The guy clearly hardly rates Floyd, he is entitled to his opinion, as I am to mine.

It's all good fun.

Of course I rate him. I just don't deify the guy. His record is what it is: calculating, lucrative and less (legacy-wise) than what it might have been had he cared as much about his historical placing as some of you all do. He doesn't. Why do you?

What's wrong with having a favourite fighter you can see flaws in?

Nothing wrong mate, we have different opinions, everyone has them. I quite enjoy the debate.

Yeah, it's what the boards are for I guess.

Some posters go a bit nutso over Floyd, though. I can never understand how you can take a guy that seriously (unless you're a teenager)?

I'm a massive Floyd fan but he has his flaws legacy wise as does Pacquiao.

When Floyd became "Money" he didn't always do high risk, I can't ignore that.

AdamT wrote:I'm a massive Floyd fan but he has his flaws legacy wise as does Pacquiao.

When Floyd became "Money" he didn't always do high risk, I can't ignore that.

If he wins this one he still walks away being able to claim he's the best fighter ever. He does so, however, healthy and incredibly wealthy.

As fans we may like to see fighters go through the mill to prove their greatness but in terms of success, he has to be the most successful prize fighter who ever lived (in terms of legacy, health and wealth).

hazharrison wrote:

AdamT wrote:I'm a massive Floyd fan but he has his flaws legacy wise as does Pacquiao.

When Floyd became "Money" he didn't always do high risk, I can't ignore that.

If he wins this one he still walks away being able to claim he's the best fighter ever. He does so, however, healthy and incredibly wealthy.

As fans we may like to see fighters go through the mill to prove their greatness but in terms of success, he has to be the most successful prize fighter who ever lived (in terms of legacy, health and wealth).

He hasn't the opponents to be the best ever.

If he had of beat Pacquiao 6 years earlier and maybe added the likes of Williams and Margarito to his ledger, I would have him top5.

If Mayweather wins Manny was shot and he didn't have the "guts" to beat Manny in 2009....Manny was only p4p number 3 because of the lack of quality in Boxing at the moment !!!

We all know that Manny wins..............He's been the best all along......and he beat the p4p number 1 in his prime...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:If Mayweather wins Manny was shot and he didn't have the "guts" to beat Manny in 2009....Manny was only p4p number 3 because of the lack of quality in Boxing at the moment !!!

We all know that Manny wins..............He's been the best all along......and he beat the p4p number 1 in his prime...

Truss in some peoples eyes that will probably be the case.

I'm glad the fight is happening but I really wish it had of happened years ago.

On the original point, if Manny can win he will be ahead of Money. Mainly from my point of view because I'm desperate to rate him higher.

I like Manny and dislike Money, simply would love some way of arguing he was better which at the moment I can't do because Money is too good.

I dislike Roach

Perhaps if Manny had a different trainer I wouldn't be dying to see him get his a.s kicked

88Chris05 wrote:Don't think anyone is denying that Mosley had seen better days, Haz, but I don't see how you can deny that, as a performance, Mayweather's showing against Shane clearly outshone Pacquiao's.

The scorecards might have indicated that there was nowt in it (can't remember the specifics on that front without checking) but Mayweather showed the full array of his skills whereas nobody thinks back to the Mosley fight when they talk about top performances by Manny or fights which showcased him at his best. Pacquiao clearly wasn't in the same kind of ruthless mood as he was against Cotto, for instance - Miguel got very defensive and back-foot happy after Pacquiao had beaten the hell out of him for a few rounds but Manny still retained his cutting edge and walked him down. Likewise Mosley lost heart against Mayweather but Floyd still gave him a chasing. Pacquiao just did enough. Mosley-Pacquiao was a dreadful fight and neither guy put on a show.

I found it pretty ridiculous in 2012 when some Mayweather fanatcis were trying to argue that his win over Cotto was shomehow better than Manny's, but similarly it seems odd to me that anyone could watch Floyd-Mosley and Manny-Mosley and argue that Pacquiao's performance or win was superior. Again, leaving out how you felt about Mosley's condition at the time, do you really think Pacquiao looked anything like a great fighter in that fight? Mayweather on the other hand did, in my opinion.

It depends how you look at it though Chris. You could say that Manny, in 2nd gear almost KO'D Shane and had him terrified for the remainder of the fight, whilst still not having to get out of 2nd gear. I agree with you that it was an underwhelming performance from Manny, but it could be interpreted as him not needing to be anything but that in order to get the win.

Don't know if I'm reading too much into it but apparently he was involved in a minor car accident the morning of the fight and was said to be a little shaken up just 6 or 7 hours before the fight. I'm sure there was a news video released the day of the fight reporting this. Still, I agree with you that regardless of that incident, it did seem to mark the start of some mildly disappointing performances from Manny.

Marlonz wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:Don't think anyone is denying that Mosley had seen better days, Haz, but I don't see how you can deny that, as a performance, Mayweather's showing against Shane clearly outshone Pacquiao's.

The scorecards might have indicated that there was nowt in it (can't remember the specifics on that front without checking) but Mayweather showed the full array of his skills whereas nobody thinks back to the Mosley fight when they talk about top performances by Manny or fights which showcased him at his best. Pacquiao clearly wasn't in the same kind of ruthless mood as he was against Cotto, for instance - Miguel got very defensive and back-foot happy after Pacquiao had beaten the hell out of him for a few rounds but Manny still retained his cutting edge and walked him down. Likewise Mosley lost heart against Mayweather but Floyd still gave him a chasing. Pacquiao just did enough. Mosley-Pacquiao was a dreadful fight and neither guy put on a show.

I found it pretty ridiculous in 2012 when some Mayweather fanatcis were trying to argue that his win over Cotto was shomehow better than Manny's, but similarly it seems odd to me that anyone could watch Floyd-Mosley and Manny-Mosley and argue that Pacquiao's performance or win was superior. Again, leaving out how you felt about Mosley's condition at the time, do you really think Pacquiao looked anything like a great fighter in that fight? Mayweather on the other hand did, in my opinion.

It depends how you look at it though Chris. You could say that Manny, in 2nd gear almost KO'D Shane and had him terrified for the remainder of the fight, whilst still not having to get out of 2nd gear. I agree with you that it was an underwhelming performance from Manny, but it could be interpreted as him not needing to be anything but that in order to get the win.

Don't know if I'm reading too much into it but apparently he was involved in a minor car accident the morning of the fight and was said to be a little shaken up just 6 or 7 hours before the fight. I'm sure there was a news video released the day of the fight reporting this. Still, I agree with you that regardless of that incident, it did seem to mark the start of some mildly disappointing performances from Manny.

Let's not get into this whole second gear crap.............

Hamed wasn't focused against Barrera blah blah..............Duran was partying for Leonard 2 blah blah............

It's redundant garbage where all the fighters you hate are always 100% focussed and prime when they are crap..............and the ones you like have excuses when they are !!.............

I know I'm digressing here, and it might warrant a separate thread, but I'm frustrated at the lack of questioning of Mayweather by his own fans for having Alex Ariza as his strength and conditioning coach??! I'm actually amazed that he and his team accused Manny of using PED's for the best part of 5 years only to then appoint the same guy they accused of helping him cheat, and largely without criticism. This is also the same Ariza that was accused by Broner and Floyd fans of helping Maidana cheat against Broner!!?

I find it interesting that no journalist just asks him "So Floyd, now that Ariza is with you, I take it he's legit? If so, does that mean that you never really suspected Manny of cheating? Either way, on principle, doesn't it undermine your accusations of Manny?" Not all of it can be true and it would be so easy to pose that question to Floyd, yet nobody has. Certainly not for the run-up/promotion for this fight anyway.

Marlonz wrote:I know I'm digressing here, and it might warrant a separate thread, but I'm frustrated at the lack of questioning of Mayweather by his own fans for having Alex Ariza as his strength and conditioning coach??! I'm actually amazed that he and his team accused Manny of using PED's for the best part of 5 years only to then appoint the same guy they accused of helping him cheat, and largely without criticism. This is also the same Ariza that was accused by Broner and Floyd fans of helping Maidana cheat against Broner!!?

I find it interesting that no journalist just asks him "So Floyd, now that Ariza is with you, I take it he's legit? If so, does that mean that you never really suspected Manny of cheating? Either way, on principle, doesn't it undermine your accusations of Manny?" Not all of it can be true and it would be so easy to pose that question to Floyd, yet nobody has. Certainly not for the run-up/promotion for this fight anyway.

Manny fan boy alert.......

So what are your thoughts on Ariza then Truss?

Marlonz wrote:I know I'm digressing here, and it might warrant a separate thread, but I'm frustrated at the lack of questioning of Mayweather by his own fans for having Alex Ariza as his strength and conditioning coach??! I'm actually amazed that he and his team accused Manny of using PED's for the best part of 5 years only to then appoint the same guy they accused of helping him cheat, and largely without criticism. This is also the same Ariza that was accused by Broner and Floyd fans of helping Maidana cheat against Broner!!?

I find it interesting that no journalist just asks him "So Floyd, now that Ariza is with you, I take it he's legit? If so, does that mean that you never really suspected Manny of cheating? Either way, on principle, doesn't it undermine your accusations of Manny?" Not all of it can be true and it would be so easy to pose that question to Floyd, yet nobody has. Certainly not for the run-up/promotion for this fight anyway.

Boxing has very few journalists qualified to grill Mayweather in such a manner. Most are more concerned with gaining access to fighters/fights to ever give them a hard time. If anyone ever did, the fighter would just stop talking to them. It sucks.

He's not only recruited Ariza, he's also - apparently - taken advice from Heredia (the guy who made Marquez into He-Man). Very shady (if you agree that Ariza is a shady character).