What if Marquez had never been born?

First topic message reminder :

Despite Manny getting the better of the results, most consider Marquez to be a thorn in Pacquiao’s side. With a decent understanding of their fights we understand that Marquez is possibly the clearest indication of why the upcoming Mayweather fight won’t go Manny’s way. I include myself in this thinking, however as mentioned in a recent 606v2 podcast, could JMM just be Manny’s Kryptonite or bogeyman? Alternatively, is it the counterpunching style of JMM, which most consider to be an inferior version to Mayweather’s own, that Troubles Manny? This is important as the former is just an unlucky circumstance, whereas the latter shows a clear flaw in Pacquiao’s boxing ability.

Let’s assume Marquez was just a bogeyman and so for the sake or argument had never existed, all we know of Manny has come from the same career minus those 4 fights. How would we view Pacquiao’s chances against Mayweather now? Is the blueprint still there? Bradley would be the only blip on Manny’s record in the last 10 years and most would count it as another decent win in reality. With dominant performance after performance against similar opposition, does Manny suddenly look a lot less beatable?

Cheers DuransHorse ( I'm steeling this sign off from Rodders as he's just so polite, even when ranting. Cheers Rodders! ).

Coxy001 wrote:Truss, you doing a D4 and building up an opponent to the point they could rip the head off a raging gorilla.... to then be defeated by your favourite fighter and proclaim him the second coming?

10-1-1 or however the old saying goes.. springs to mind etc

Are you suggesting Truss is setting up a win win situation where he can gloat if Floyd wins but say "I told you so" if he loses? Nah. Never!

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

DuransHorse wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Manny's work rate judging by his last fight is still good...

Against who though?  No real test when the guy is right there to pummel.

His work rate will be higher than anybody Mayweather has fought in the last few years.........

38 is past it...............So is 36 but it ain't 38..

Go away Coxy..

10-1-1

Just sayin' Truss.

There's also the factor of whether Manny will be able to maintain that work rate when Mayweather is responding with sharp counters. There are a few questions in this fight but I think we will see the Mayweather from themoseley fight after he got tagged. Inside and outside work, roughing him up and drawing him into counters

Pacquiao will get nowhere near Maidana's work rate, he doesn't have the size or strength to bully Mayweather like he and Castillo did. Pacquiao when fought he fought Marquez the third time threw less than Guerrero did against Mayweather so can't see it being a problem, once he starts getting countered and has to think the punches stop flowing.

ShahenshahG wrote:There's also the factor of whether Manny will be able to maintain  that work rate when Mayweather is responding with sharp counters. There are a few questions in this fight but I think we will see the Mayweather from themoseley fight after he got tagged. Inside and outside work, roughing him up and drawing him into counters

I think it's close to a 50/50 but I'm siding with Manny....

If Manny wins it will be tough.............

The tank will be very important in this fight....................Roach's whole strategy will be to make the 38 yr old work..

Manny is a lefty as well...............

If Floyd can dissuade him coming in he wins............Like I said its.... Manny v Clottey..........or..........Starling v Honey

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Pacquiao will get nowhere near Maidana's work rate, he doesn't have the size or strength to bully Mayweather like he and Castillo did. Pacquiao when fought he fought Marquez the third time threw less than Guerrero did against Mayweather so can't see it being a problem, once he starts getting countered and has to think the punches stop flowing.

Quality of the work..............Not suggesting you throw a 100 crap punches like Honey in the first round with starling.....

Quality = Pressure..............He knows he can't give Mayweather time..

If it's a boxing-brain battle Manny loses all night long..

I don't see it Truss, the only pressure Mayweather struggles with is physical and Pacquiao doesn't bring that sort of pressure, he used to bring high volume but that has dwindled since the Mosley fight.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I don't see it Truss, the only pressure Mayweather struggles with is physical and Pacquiao doesn't bring that sort of pressure, he used to bring high volume but that has dwindled since the Mosley fight.

I hope your right............

Fair play If Manny beats him..........

Certainly go into my Top 15............

Still think there is no way a 38 year old and 36 year old should be dominating any physical sport though.........like these two..

Credit to these two that they are.............But a shame on Boxing that the top 3 P4pers are all closer to 40........than 30.

Coxy001 wrote:Truss, you doing a D4 and building up an opponent to the point they could rip the head off a raging gorilla.... to then be defeated by your favourite fighter and proclaim him the second coming?

10-1-1 or however the old saying goes.. springs to mind etc

Exactly. It's as pathetic as it is transparent.

Did the same for Canelo and, to a lesser extent, RG....

I don't think they are dominating any more Truss, i'll say now I don't rate Maidana, Bradley, Algieri, Guerrero or Rios as Welterweights, to be dominating they'd have to be beating Khan, Brook and Thurman convincingly, the talented young guns.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I don't think they are dominating any more Truss, i'll say now I don't rate Maidana, Bradley, Algieri, Guerrero or Rios as Welterweights, to be dominating they'd have to be beating Khan, Brook and Thurman convincingly, the talented young guns.

Perhaps not dominating but the talent pool is so low those two and Wlad make up the top 3............and as for a 49 year old owning a title or two...............

Further down we have Froch top 7...........Rigo is 35 this year and top 5.....Stevenson is past 35..........and when these go GGG will probably be 35.............

I mean geez............Bring on the kids !!!!!

Sports science is the reason so many fighters are better now in their 30's than decades gone by.

Can of worms opened now!

Somebody had to point out the obvious!

Hoping that manny wins, but expecting Floyd as i have said before, however I wouldn't be surprised if the crowd sway the judges if the fight is close- I am expecting every shot that manny throws to be cheered to the rafters, even if it misses or Floyd takes them on his gloves and shoulders- Flyod could hand out a silent beating.. and end up on the wrong end of a decision!-not like it hasn't happened before....

horizontalhero wrote:Hoping that manny wins, but expecting Floyd as i have said before, however I wouldn't be surprised if the crowd sway the judges if the fight is close- I am expecting every shot that manny throws to be cheered to the rafters, even if it misses or Floyd takes them on his gloves and shoulders- Flyod could hand out a silent beating.. and end up on the wrong end of a decision!-not like it hasn't happened before....

I disagree................Manny is a foreigner..............Hatton may have brought a Brit army but there won't be a filipino one..

Mayweather will be the most popular fighter on show ..

Sorry for not reading through the posts of this point has already been made. Marquez and mayweather are very different counter punchers. Marquez is a high output fight fire with fire counter puncher, mayweather is very much a low out put defensive counter puncher. Marquez gets hit because he's so keen to fire back, mayweather rarely gets hit because he's in his shell. 
To me the are very different opponents for manny to face.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I don't see it Truss, the only pressure Mayweather struggles with is physical and Pacquiao doesn't bring that sort of pressure, he used to bring high volume but that has dwindled since the Mosley fight.

Mayweather struggled with Judah, he didn't bring physical pressure.

jimdig wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I don't see it Truss, the only pressure Mayweather struggles with is physical and Pacquiao doesn't bring that sort of pressure, he used to bring high volume but that has dwindled since the Mosley fight.

Mayweather struggled with Judah, he didn't bring physical pressure.

He struggled for the first three Jim, it gets blown out of all proportion and forgotten the last nine rounds were a procession.

Think we need to remember though that both will be seeing something they haven't seen before..........

Too easy to say Marquez beat Manny...........So Floyd should do it easier..........

I imagine Ray Robinson had fought cagey boxers a bit like Turpin... before being outboxed..

Little idiosynchracies can make a big difference..

Guaranteed to end controversially after 12 rounds. All involved want a rematch

How much impact will the corners make? I am expecting a decent plan from Roach- I certainly think he's a better tactician then Unkle Rog. If Floyd does have a weakness I expect Roach to have come up with something, whereas I think Floyd will depend on simpy being better.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

jimdig wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I don't see it Truss, the only pressure Mayweather struggles with is physical and Pacquiao doesn't bring that sort of pressure, he used to bring high volume but that has dwindled since the Mosley fight.

Mayweather struggled with Judah, he didn't bring physical pressure.

He struggled for the first three Jim, it gets blown out of all proportion and forgotten the last nine rounds were a procession.

I would have said 4 hammy. But yep, he made the adjustments and dominated.

I really don't know which way this fight goes, I can see manny dominating, I can see floyd dominating, I can see floyd making adjustments coming from behind and winning a close decision. I don't see manny winning a tight decision or anyone getting ko'd.

I think, if anything, the Judah fight is a testament to Floyd's greatness. Judah was a top oppo at the time (albeit with losses in his biggest fights) and was a very fast handed southpaw.

Floyd's ability to think 'in the ring' and come up with a way of (comprehensively) beating a guy he initially struggled with speaks volumes.

horizontalhero wrote:How much impact will the corners make? I am expecting a decent plan from Roach- I certainly think he's a better tactician then Unkle Rog. If Floyd does have a weakness I expect Roach to have come up with something, whereas I think Floyd will depend on simpy being better.

The corners are and will always be overrated.................

How many fights did Roach have to work Marquez out ??......

Is Enzo calzaghe a great coach ???............Would Calzaghe have been great with someone else.........

Fair point regarding Roach and JMM, but disagree with the general premise- Futch's tactics for Norton against Ali were absolutely spot on. Stewart spoke of his pride in their game plan being followed to the T in the Lewis Tyson fight. There are plently of factors that have a bearing on fight, and when opponents are closely matched a good game plan is one of them.

You only remember the good nights............He had plenty of bad ones..

Top trainer though..........

But fighters win fights.

Agreed- but only if they fight the right fight- Leonards tactics in Duran 1 as an example looking from the other side of the coin. Taylor slugging with Chavez is another. At the top level against equal matched opponents, tactics matter.

I've seen very few fights in my lifetime where a corner has changed a fight....

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I've seen very few fights in my lifetime where a corner has changed a fight....

Luis Resto's corner?

Lance wrote:Guaranteed to end controversially after 12 rounds. All involved want a rematch

What price for a Manny SD???