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Sarries opt for no additional marquee signing

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quinsforever
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Sarries opt for no additional marquee signing Empty Sarries opt for no additional marquee signing

Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 20 Apr 2015, 9:28 pm

Courtesy of Sky Sports:

Saracens plan to bypass English rugby's marquee player market this year and focus on home-grown players.

All 12 Aviva Premiership clubs can recruit an extra marquee player for next season, whose wages will not be included in a salary cap of more than £5m.

Saracens, though, do not intend to go down that road, with current squad strength highlighted by five members of their starting pack against European Champions Cup semi-final conquerors Clermont Auvergne being aged 25 or under and all England-qualified.

Mako Vunipola, Jamie George, George Kruis, Maro Itoje and Billy Vunipola were at the forefront of a brave and battling semi-final display in Saint-Etienne as English representation in this season's competition came to an agonising end.

"The fact Clermont and Toulon always seem to be in semi-finals or finals gives you an indication that they're pretty powerful," Saracens rugby director Mark McCall said.

"But if someone ever took the time to go through our squad properly and understand where they've come from and where they are now, you can develop your own and make players better.

"We believe that we do that, and that we give ourselves a chance in these competitions because of that.

"We know where we would like to improve our side, and we are prepared to wait for the right person to make that happen.

"We don't want to jump in and get 'a name' just because he is available post-World Cup.

"It has got to be someone who has got the right kind of ambition and hunger, not just looking to see out his career. We are very, very careful who we're going to spend that kind of money on.

"It is difficult because players talk and understand that this guy (marquee player) has got to perform if he's going to earn that kind of money. For us, we won't be bringing one in for next season.

"I think you are always looking for something to add, and we have got to keep an eye on our back-line, but our pack is developing just nicely and is going to be a force to be reckoned with for years to come.

"The fact that our pack is as young as it is, it's incredibly exciting for us to think that they could be the mainstay of the club for hopefully the next four or five seasons."

So Sarries are backing the academy. For all the investment the foreign investors have made the investment most overlooked is the academy. They are producing a good number of players.

Will they be able to stick to this policy with only one of their three fly halfs under 30, Barritt injury prone at 28, both Wyles and Bosch 31.

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Post by Artful_Dodger Mon 20 Apr 2015, 9:41 pm

Why do they want rid of the salary cap if they aren't bringing in big names?

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 20 Apr 2015, 10:11 pm

Beats me. Maybe Bath are the driving force behind that and Sarries are siding with them as part of some alliance.

It could of course be politics to try and cover up the fact that they've been playing fast and loose with the salary cap in previous years and are now being told to sort it out. Hence only squad signings despite the uplift in cap and number of marquee options.

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Post by The Great Aukster Mon 20 Apr 2015, 10:14 pm

Maybe they are sustaining several marquees already?

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Post by Artful_Dodger Mon 20 Apr 2015, 10:20 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:Maybe they are sustaining several marquees already?

I think that might be it, in the space of one interview Nigel Wray has said they aren't being investigated for a salary cap breach, yet immediately goes on to call the salary cap a 'farce'. (see below link) I think they are already operating beyond it despite the denials. It leads you to believe that their 'model' could be in a lot of trouble. £41 million in debt, breaking the Premierships salary rules as it is and with no signings coming in. Not good.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-3025947/Saracens-chairman-Nigel-Wray-describes-rugby-s-salary-caps-farce-documents-club-s-mounting-debts-reached-40m-rugby-history.html

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Post by funnyExiledScot Mon 20 Apr 2015, 10:28 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:Beats me. Maybe Bath are the driving force behind that and Sarries are siding with them as part of some alliance.

It could of course be politics to try and cover up the fact that they've been playing fast and loose with the salary cap in previous years and are now being told to sort it out. Hence only squad signings despite the uplift in cap and number of marquee options.

Your 2nd paragraph hits the nail on the head. This smacks of a behind the scenes political compromise.

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Post by quinsforever Mon 20 Apr 2015, 10:39 pm

Artful_Dodger wrote:Why do they want rid of the salary cap if they aren't bringing in big names?
because the marquee signing is not part of any salary cap?

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Post by quinsforever Mon 20 Apr 2015, 10:42 pm

combined with the fact they are running a bigger operating loss than management expected.

so they do what all private clubs do. they keep costs under control, and look for their increased tv revenues to hopefully allow them to turn a profit.

seems pretty sensible to me.

oh wait, its only the usual irish who are incensed.

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Post by Artful_Dodger Mon 20 Apr 2015, 10:49 pm

quinsforever wrote:combined with the fact they are running a bigger operating loss than management expected.

so they do what all private clubs do. they keep costs under control, and look for their increased tv revenues to hopefully allow them to turn a profit.

seems pretty sensible to me.

oh wait, its only the usual irish who are incensed.

Strange comment, I see nothing on this thread which suggests anyone being incensed. 'Keeping costs under control' when in £41 million of debt is high on comedic value however, well played. clap

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Post by quinsforever Mon 20 Apr 2015, 10:57 pm

if they make a profit the debt falls. if they make a loss the debt grows. so the amount of debt is in and of itself UTTERLY IRRELEVANT. i know you dont understand that i just though i would spell it out so others can appreciate this business truism.

lets put it in terms you can understand. ireland have a lot of goverment debt, and are currently running a c3% budget deficit. so what happens to their debt next year? answer it goes up by 3% of GDP (previous years budget deficit).

now, if ireland by not signing marquee whotsits, and with GDP growing from extra tv money, can start to turn a surplus, what happens to govt debt next year. yes, good answer, it starts to fall by the amount of the surplus.

debt has NOTHING to do with ongoing costs, especially if its an interest free loan. Debt increasing or decreasing depends on making operating losses or profits.

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Post by The Great Aukster Mon 20 Apr 2015, 10:59 pm

AD - £41m in debt is "under control" in AP terms, it called creative accounting.

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Post by Artful_Dodger Mon 20 Apr 2015, 11:00 pm

quinsforever wrote:if they make a profit the debt falls. if they make a loss the debt grows. so the amount of debt is in and of itself UTTERLY IRRELEVANT. i know you dont understand that i just though i would spell it out so others can appreciate this business truism.

lets put it in terms you can understand. ireland have a lot of goverment debt, and are currently running a c3% budget deficit. so what happens to their debt next year? answer it goes up by 3% of GDP (previous years budget deficit).

now, if ireland by not signing marquee whotsits, and with GDP growing from extra tv money, can start to turn a surplus, what happens to govt debt next year. yes, good answer, it starts to fall by the amount of the surplus.

debt has NOTHING to do with ongoing costs, especially if its an interest free loan. Debt increasing or decreasing depends on making operating losses or profits.

Presumably then, having got into £41 million of debt Saracens are running at quite a significant operational loss and one could logically construe that this may increase again if Wray is successful in getting rid of the salary cap so he can rack up more debt.

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Post by quinsforever Mon 20 Apr 2015, 11:03 pm

you asked why they didnt sign an additional marquee player. and then linked it to the salary cap issue.

firstly marquee players and salary caps are EXPLICITLY UNCONNECTED. as in the former does not count in the latter.

secondly, not overpaying for marquee players makes it more likely that sarries might actually achieve an operating profit than not.

aukster go to bed. far too late for you to be discussing accounting.

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Post by Artful_Dodger Mon 20 Apr 2015, 11:14 pm

quinsforever wrote:you asked why they didnt sign an additional marquee player. and then linked it to the salary cap issue.

firstly marquee players and salary caps are EXPLICITLY UNCONNECTED. as in the former does not count in the latter.

secondly, not overpaying for marquee players makes it more likely that sarries might actually achieve an operating profit than not.

aukster go to bed. far too late for you to be discussing accounting.

Yet others above agree with my insinuation that the two are linked - see Sam and Exiled's posts about it being a deal comprised of no marquee players for Saracens in return for no action being taken against a salary cap breach.

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Post by quinsforever Mon 20 Apr 2015, 11:19 pm

really. calling a tigers fan as witness for the prosecution does beg certain questions.

the two cannot be linked. impossible. not signing a 2nd marquee player, or signing steffon armitage as marquee player for GBP1m per annum HAS NO IMPACT ON THE SALARY CAP. NONE. MARQUEE PLAYERS ARE OUTSIDE THE SALARY CAP. Is that clear enough?

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Post by The Great Aukster Mon 20 Apr 2015, 11:24 pm

AD - it is completely logical that a club in debt would want a salary cap to remain in place as it would limit their exposure while they get they finances back in order. Therefore it is also logical that a club in debt calling for the scrapping of the salary cap has a different agenda. Not everyone is logical though and Nigel Wray has said some pretty daft stuff in the past.

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Post by Artful_Dodger Tue 21 Apr 2015, 12:21 am

quinsforever wrote:really. calling a tigers fan as witness for the prosecution does beg certain questions.

the two cannot be linked. impossible. not signing a 2nd marquee player, or signing steffon armitage as marquee player for GBP1m per annum HAS NO IMPACT ON THE SALARY CAP. NONE. MARQUEE PLAYERS ARE OUTSIDE THE SALARY CAP. Is that clear enough?

Think it might be time for your lie down quins, when the caps lock spam comes out it tends to mean your arguments have gone awry.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 21 Apr 2015, 10:13 am

Well I thought this thread would be more a discussion of Sarries squad make up and whether the choice to rely on mainly internally generated talent was over ambitious, particularly given the age and lack of flair in the back line.

As it's gone economical. It is not unusual for owners of a business to introduce capital. Sarries loans are from their wealthy South African owners and also cover the new stadium and training facilities. It's not all been blown on wages. The new stadium should be a long term commercial venture that works, other AP club with their own ground are economically more sound than those that rent. Generally speaking. Sarries wanted to move towards that but needed funds to do so.

There was someone who said that taking loans from owners was creative accounting and it certainly isn't. Creative accounting is strictly illegal and loaning a business money is not.

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Post by Bathman_in_London Tue 21 Apr 2015, 10:37 am

Certainly if you were feeling naughty then you would suggest that they were already over the limit and have been told to allocate one of their existing players as the marquee to get back in line.

Interestingly there haven't been many 'big' signings to the AP for after the WC, despite all the noise about increasing caps and marquee slots. Arguably only Horwill and Franks would come under the marquee category. Personally I don't see that as a bad thing.

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Post by George Carlin Tue 21 Apr 2015, 10:43 am

The Great Aukster wrote:AD - £41m in debt is "under control" in AP terms, it called creative accounting.
In terms of methodology, there are undeniable similarities with my wife's approach to buying shoes. picard
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Post by Rugby Fan Tue 21 Apr 2015, 11:28 am

Saracens want the salary cap to be increased in order to compete with the top French clubs. In their view, the additional marquee player, and modest increase in the cap, does not give them the leeway they would like to have.

As far as I read it, the club has decided there is little advantage in pushing to the limit on signings while they believe they still operate with one hand tied behind their back. I don't think you need any conspiracy theory to explain the thinking. Mind you, I'd still like to know the story behind sacking their CEO, since Wray has said that Griffiths wanted to stay.

Also, we have the World Cup on the horizon, and an Olympic Sevens tournament next year, which both might serve to recalibrate our idea of which players will bring in the crowds and/or help win silverware. If Saracens want to keep a relatively low profile in the transfer market, then this doesn't seem a bad year to do it.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 21 Apr 2015, 1:58 pm

The RWC and Sevens events will only raise player value. If they are planning to swoop then before hand would offer a more economical option. Having said that if everyone else heavily involved in the transfer market this summer then next year will be quieter and Sarries may be able to do more business with less competition.

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Post by LondonTiger Tue 21 Apr 2015, 2:13 pm

I actually read the original comments as an attempt to talk agents pricing of their players down. Or maybe the player(s) they want is not available atm.

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