Research into the use of the time violation rule - NEW petition expessing concern about it's inconsistant use

First topic message reminder :

I am doing a little research into the application of the time violation rule. Players are meant to take no more than 25 seconds between points. If they take longer they are meant to be given a warning on the first violation and on subsequent ones lose a first serve. It is proving difficult to find information on the number of penalties handed out and if the rule is being enforced correctly. If anyone is interested maybe they could help?

I would like to know of any instances when players have received a warning or loss of first serve and what the score was at the time.

How often players go over 25 seconds without being penalized.

The first question could be perhaps partly answered from memory and partly from noting new incidents

The second question could be answered by watching parts of any match and timing a few points. I've found this easy to do by using the timer that appears when you rewind or slow live TV as it shows the seconds but a watch or clock would work fine. According to the ATP rule book timing should start when the ball goes out of play and stop when the ball is struck for the next point. I have gathered some information but it's impossible to watch all matches so any information would be useful. 



NEW petition expressing concern about the inconsistent use of the time violation rule

Time limits for tennis players? Time for a response - a request to the ATP & ITF

We want to bring to your urgent attention the fact that growing numbers of tennis fans are raising serious concerns about the inconsistent application of the Time Violation Warning rule in ATP and ITF tournaments. This is beginning to spoil our enjoyment of this exceptional sport.

Umpires are currently issuing warnings randomly and arbitrarily, with some players who persistently go over the time limit not being penalised, and others regularly being given a warning.

In addition, it has been noted that the first warning of a match is suddenly given at a crucial point in a game - e.g. at break point - even when the time has been exceeded previously. We are concerned that this practice could significantly alter the outcome of a match.

We, the undersigned, urge you to find a way of regularising the application of the rule and respectfully request a formal response to the specific concerns highlighted in this petition.

Thank you.

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/time-limits-for-tennis-players-time-for-a

This thread is de facto focussed on Nadal, where are the other culprits. Should they even be named?

.. they have been but who the hell cares ???

biugo wrote:About the enforcement of time violation rules, and to change ever so slightly the focus of the topic: If this rule was to be enforced truly, how would you see it?

To be honest, my preferred approach would be to do pretty much what the rule is meant to do - give 25s limit but with Umpire discretion.

BUT

I would significantly move the needle on where I think ATP should take that discretion. I think umpires should call TV pretty much every time players go over 25 seconds. Maybe give players one year to adjust with something like: Jan-Mar call TV just about every time after 40s. Apr-Jun after 35s, Jul-Sep after 30s, Oct and later after 25s. And stick to 25s thereafter. Players would learn to adjust (I am sure of it) and that would be the end of the story.

Telegraph quotes Nole as saying this on the topic:

Novak Djokovic was later asked about the situation in his own press conference and he offered a critical response. “There are some chair umpires in some matches that I remember that I wasn’t very happy with how they did their job,” the world No 1 said. “But I never thought of requesting a chair umpire not to be a chair umpire in my matches. I don’t think that’s fair.”

Djokovic



Spot on. It's the sign of a man drunk on power to suggest otherwise and still think he's being honourable,

Henman Bill wrote:OK, here is something to note.

Rafa says, in the you tube video "Voy a pedir que no me arbitres nunca mas".

It means "I am going to ask/request that you do not referee me again".

The telegraph reports that Rafa said: “I will make sure that you don’t arbitrate me anymore.” But, does not provide the original English.

Now, it could be that there is a second statement made by Rafa, not captured in the above video.

However, it seems likely that it's a mistranslation here.

The key point is the verb "pedir" which means "ask" or "request". Although he spoke in an irritated way, the verb is quite a polite one, and it no way carries any of the connatation of "I will make sure" - that is a mistranslation - in fact a glaring error - whether due to incompetent translation or just sexing up I am not sure.

In the video posted by Hawkeye, second link, Rafa says he will request that Bernados does not umpire him again. He does not say it will happen, or anything of the sort.

Unless there is a separate, second statement not shown in the video of course.

But the key point being who the f*** does he think he is to be influencing who officiated at matches?

Oh..... the guy who got away with time violation for his whole career. Of course, no wonder he is so entitled.

Since my request to direct responses at the argument and not at other posters, I have had to edit 3 posts and remove one, and now more have appeared overnight.

Well done Matchpoint, hawkeye, Haddie, bogbrush and LuvSports. If anyone cares to know which of their posts transgressed please PM me.

Thread is locked for now.

OK, it's unlocked again. The same criteria apply as before. If it is not on topic, it gets edited or deleted and I will PM that person to explain why. Obviously I could do without spending my time doing that - everyone know the rules, it's just a case of whether you choose to follow them or not.

If I miss anything that posters feel editing/deleting PLEASE DO NOT POINT IT OUT ON THE THREAD - that just kicks off a 'he said/she said' argument. Report the post, or PM me - ideally the former as my inbox can get full and there may be a delay in getting the PM.

Simon Briggs with his face covered in egg

Have to admit I didn't know about the shorts detail when I wrote the story and frankly wouldn't have guessed! Still, the principle is dicey

https://twitter.com/simonrbriggs/status/603209431694888960

Yes the principle of a journalist throwing stones without bothering to check the facts is dicey to say the least. As a tennis fan I would like to ask the Telegraph to provide a different sports writer to cover tennis. This one is clearly biased.

Is a player allowed to request an umpire stops calling their games? If so... I'm not sure what the big deal is?

Rather one eyed to accuse Rafa of flouting the rules, and at the same time call him a such and such for doing something hes within his rights to do?

^ Well yes. This from Wawrinka

Wawrinka on Rafa and Bernardes: i have already did a similar request a short time ago

https://twitter.com/raulfiber/status/603550057133154305

But no one is interested in Wawrinka

As no one was interested in Nishikori taking 32 seconds to save BP today..
So whats new

Wawrinka, to be fair, does come across as a bit of a chop. Love the guy though

hawkeye wrote:^ Well yes. This from Wawrinka

Wawrinka on Rafa and Bernardes: i have already did a similar request a short time ago

https://twitter.com/raulfiber/status/603550057133154305

But no one is interested in Wawrinka

That's an incorrect assumption. It is interesting, but obviously had less publicity. Even now we don't know a) does he mean with Bernardes or another umpire? b) did he get his wish?
How do we find out?

kingraf wrote:Wawrinka, to be fair, does come across as a bit of a chop. Love the guy though

I replied to your previous post (somehow its gone missing ) That Rafa has exercised the right that is there for all players to use if they wish.. he is breaking no rules...I see nobody it the ATP kicking up about it.. neither has Bernades.

JuliusHMarx wrote:

hawkeye wrote:^ Well yes. This from Wawrinka

Wawrinka on Rafa and Bernardes: i have already did a similar request a short time ago

https://twitter.com/raulfiber/status/603550057133154305

But no one is interested in Wawrinka

That's an incorrect assumption. It is interesting, but obviously had less publicity. Even now we don't know a) does he mean with Bernardes or another umpire? b) did he get his wish?
How do we find out?

Why should it matter.. ?? the inference was that Rafa had no right to ask for an Umpire (any umpire) not to officiate.
Stan has said he has also exercised that right.. good on him

JuliusHMarx wrote:

That's an incorrect assumption. It is interesting, but obviously had less publicity. Even now we don't know a) does he mean with Bernardes or another umpire? b) did he get his wish?
How do we find out?

Well obviously don't ask Simon Briggs

Nothing's been deleted since the thread re-opened Haddie. Not sure where your post went - I didn't see it.

JuliusHMarx wrote:Nothing's been deleted since the thread re-opened Haddie. Not sure where your post went - I didn't see it.

No I was not inferring that you had.. just don't know what I did unless I didn't send

Haddie-nuff wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

hawkeye wrote:^ Well yes. This from Wawrinka

Wawrinka on Rafa and Bernardes: i have already did a similar request a short time ago

https://twitter.com/raulfiber/status/603550057133154305

But no one is interested in Wawrinka

That's an incorrect assumption. It is interesting, but obviously had less publicity. Even now we don't know a) does he mean with Bernardes or another umpire? b) did he get his wish?
How do we find out?

Why should it matter.. ?? the inference was that Rafa had no right to ask for an Umpire (any umpire) not to officiate.
Stan has said he has also exercised that right.. good on him

Depends on the incident surely? If Stan broke a racket, say, and got a racket abuse warning - then asked not to have that umpire again, then that would be bad on him, IMHO.

Haddie-nuff wrote:

Why should it matter.. ?? the inference was that Rafa had no right to ask for an Umpire (any umpire) not to officiate.
Stan has said he has also exercised that right.. good on him

Yes good on him

It would be nice if a few players would admit to making a mockery of the rule book by taking over 20/25 seconds to serve too. We know they do it, they know they do it they should just come clean

If Wawrinka asked for that then he's another prat. Then again, the way he treated his wife years ago does rather mark him out as such.

Someone needs to give these guys a slap, tell them to play to the rules and most important of all, STFU. Far too big a sense of their own importance.

In the case of Nadal, either Carlos should not be an Umpire or he should be unrestricted. Simple as.

hawkeye wrote:Simon Briggs with his face covered in egg

Have to admit I didn't know about the shorts detail when I wrote the story and frankly wouldn't have guessed! Still, the principle is dicey

https://twitter.com/simonrbriggs/status/603209431694888960

Yes the principle of a journalist throwing stones without bothering to check the facts is dicey to say the least. As a tennis fan I would like to ask the Telegraph to provide a different sports writer to cover tennis. This one is clearly biased.

Give Neil Harman a call

Why when they can let Rafa take the flack.. he has broad shoulders

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Depends on the incident surely? If Stan broke a racket, say, and got a racket abuse warning - then asked not to have that umpire again, then that would be bad on him, IMHO.

Well Simon Briggs and a whole lot of others didn't even check what the incident was. They just saw the Name Rafa, Umpire and time violations in the same sentence and started talking about mockery of the rules etc.

Then again, the way he treated his wife years ago does rather mark him out as such.

What a fine line we are walking now...!!! attacking a player for his private
life has nothing to do with whether he has the right to ask for another umpire.. don't see the connection..

bogbrush wrote:If Wawrinka asked for that then he's another prat. Then again, the way he treated his wife years ago does rather mark him out as such.

Someone needs to give these guys a slap, tell them to play to the rules and most important of all, STFU. Far too big a sense of their own importance.

In the case of Nadal, either Carlos should not be an Umpire or he should be unrestricted. Simple as.

Bogbrush if you were an Umpire do you think you would be the correct choice for a Rafa match?

Henman Bill wrote:
Rafa says he will request that Bernados does not umpire him again. He does not say it will happen, or anything of the sort.

Of course it happened. It's all over the press now precisely because he did follow thru with his threat. Just one of the latest updates:

"Rafael Nadal confirmed a report from a week ago detailing the Spaniard’s request to the ATP that Carlos Bernardes be banned from chair umpiring Rafael Nadal’s matches in the future."

http://www.tennis-x.com/xblog/2015-05-26/19496.php

OK, we know about the Rafa incidents. How can we find out about the Stan incident - which is equally interesting, at least to me.
Maybe someone could tweet Stan? Anyone on Twitter?

Because if we could compare the two, we might draw some useful conclusions. If we don't compare the two, conclusions are less valid.

JuliusHMarx wrote:OK, we know about the Rafa incidents. How can we find out about the Stan incident - which is equally interesting, at least to me.
Maybe someone could tweet Stan? Anyone on Twitter?

Because if we could compare the two, we might draw some useful conclusions. If we don't compare the two, conclusions are less valid.

I suppose if the incidents were not identical then people could still throw pot shots at Rafa

hawkeye wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:OK, we know about the Rafa incidents. How can we find out about the Stan incident - which is equally interesting, at least to me.
Maybe someone could tweet Stan? Anyone on Twitter?

Because if we could compare the two, we might draw some useful conclusions. If we don't compare the two, conclusions are less valid.

I suppose if the incidents were not identical then people could still throw pot shots at Rafa

And even bigger pot shots at Stan.

Matchpoint wrote:

Henman Bill wrote:
Rafa says he will request that Bernados does not umpire him again. He does not say it will happen, or anything of the sort.

Of course it happened. It's all over the press now precisely because he did follow thru with his threat. Just one of the latest updates:

"Rafael Nadal confirmed a report from a week ago detailing the Spaniard’s request to the ATP that Carlos Bernardes be banned from chair umpiring Rafael Nadal’s matches in the future."

http://www.tennis-x.com/xblog/2015-05-26/19496.php

Forget the title of this article
Speculative journalism
WHERE DOES RAFA USE THE WORD BANNED


“It was my request,” Nadal said. “I asked if it’s possible, but nothing personal against him 100%. I respect him like umpire, I respect him like person, and I consider him a good person more than that.

hawkeye wrote:

bogbrush wrote:If Wawrinka asked for that then he's another prat. Then again, the way he treated his wife years ago does rather mark him out as such.

Someone needs to give these guys a slap, tell them to play to the rules and most important of all, STFU. Far too big a sense of their own importance.

In the case of Nadal, either Carlos should not be an Umpire or he should be unrestricted. Simple as.

Bogbrush if you were an Umpire do you think you would be the correct choice for a Rafa match?

If Rafa wanted a life time ban yes

hawkeye wrote:^ Well yes. This from Wawrinka

Wawrinka on Rafa and Bernardes: i have already did a similar request a short time ago

https://twitter.com/raulfiber/status/603550057133154305

But no one is interested in Wawrinka

This is extremely misleading. You seem to have cited something not from a proper news report but from the Twitter page of a random guy called Raul de Kemmeter. No credibility.  Where did Warwrinka himself say "I have already did a similar request a short time ago"? Do let us know when you find the primary source. 
–. 

Can anyone translate from the French - http://www.tennisactu.net/news-roland-garros-wawrinka-et-l-affaire-nadal-bernardes-40864.html

Edit - google translation - "When a player makes a request, it must be granted when the referee makes mistakes . This is the most important. If it's just a person that is not suitable or arbitrator we do not like , that request should not be granted.

I do not really know the reasons for the request for Rafa . I read more or less 2 or 3 things , that it was over time and the pressure he put him on his time. It's always the same problem. They tried to be stricter about 25 seconds but the referees fail to apply the same to all players. They know that if they have a problem with a star and they no longer have the chance to arbitrate , they will not be happy because they love to go on the final . If they put the players back on tops, it is difficult. This is the problem on the circuit, an arbitrator can not be as hard against a top 17 on the short"

The last part came out a bit odd.

Wawrinka indicates that the umpires are afraid to give warnings against the top players for fear of reprisals.

None of which helps me find out about if/why Stan made a similar request - which was what I was looking for in my google search.

hawkeye wrote:

bogbrush wrote:If Wawrinka asked for that then he's another prat. Then again, the way he treated his wife years ago does rather mark him out as such.

Someone needs to give these guys a slap, tell them to play to the rules and most important of all, STFU. Far too big a sense of their own importance.

In the case of Nadal, either Carlos should not be an Umpire or he should be unrestricted. Simple as.

Bogbrush if you were an Umpire do you think you would be the correct choice for a Rafa match?

I'd be a perfectly good choice for any match in every respect EXCEPT my line line calling would be rubbish and I'd be rightly pilloried for bad / non overuling

As for the rest, FFS it's simple. You call the score, tell them when to play and you enforce the rules. I would do that to the book. It would be my last match Umpiring Nadal of course because he'd have me banned afterwards.

JuliusHMarx wrote:OK, we know about the Rafa incidents. How can we find out about the Stan incident - which is equally interesting, at least to me.
Maybe someone could tweet Stan? Anyone on Twitter?

Because if we could compare the two, we might draw some useful conclusions. If we don't compare the two, conclusions are less valid.

I did a search but couldn't find any verification on Warwrinka being directly quoted as having said he made the same request as Nadal. I only found "Warwarinka criticised Bernades...". Of course, let's not put words in his mouth. Criticising an umpire is not the same as actually going to the ATP to get the umpire removed from certain matches. So we can't even compare, can we?

To be honest, it doesn't really matter whether or not Wawrinka made the request. The only question is whether or not Nadal is allowed to make this request without asking for special assistance. If yes, what is the problem exactly?

Haddie-nuff wrote:

Matchpoint wrote:

Henman Bill wrote:
Rafa says he will request that Bernados does not umpire him again. He does not say it will happen, or anything of the sort.

Of course it happened. It's all over the press now precisely because he did follow thru with his threat. Just one of the latest updates:

"Rafael Nadal confirmed a report from a week ago detailing the Spaniard’s request to the ATP that Carlos Bernardes be banned from chair umpiring Rafael Nadal’s matches in the future."

http://www.tennis-x.com/xblog/2015-05-26/19496.php

Forget the title of this article
Speculative journalism
WHERE DOES RAFA USE THE WORD BANNED


“It was my request,” Nadal said. “I asked if it’s possible, but nothing personal against him 100%. I respect him like umpire, I respect him like person, and I consider him a good person more than that.

We know that already. I'm exploring how his action vs Bernades is being interpreted/viewed by the outside world, ok? Other people have opinions on what he says.

Edit/add: Yes, Nadal never said "ban", but, like it or not, that's exactly how the press perceives his action vs Bernades.

kingraf wrote:To be honest, it doesn't really matter whether or not Wawrinka made the request. The only question is whether or not Nadal is allowed to make this request without asking for special assistance. If yes, what is the problem exactly?

There is just one problem. on this thread .... Nadal You will notice in the transcript that JHM has posted  above, the word REQUEST is said.
There is no problem.. what Stan is saying is that there must be more .. Rafa would not have had that request granted purely on the grounds that he did not like him. The ATP must have thought that for all concerned it was the best option.
Who are the complainants here,??? the players.. no.. Bernades..no.. the ATP no... so back to those with the biggest grievance... the Nadal bashers of  606

Sounds like Rafa makes "requests" in the same way Sepp Blatter "investigates corruption".

kingraf wrote:To be honest, it doesn't really matter whether or not Wawrinka made the request. The only question is whether or not Nadal is allowed to make this request without asking for special assistance. If yes, what is the problem exactly?

There is no problem. Just a little wishful thinking from some that there is

Matchpoint wrote:

Haddie-nuff wrote:

Matchpoint wrote:

Henman Bill wrote:
Rafa says he will request that Bernados does not umpire him again. He does not say it will happen, or anything of the sort.

Of course it happened. It's all over the press now precisely because he did follow thru with his threat. Just one of the latest updates:

"Rafael Nadal confirmed a report from a week ago detailing the Spaniard’s request to the ATP that Carlos Bernardes be banned from chair umpiring Rafael Nadal’s matches in the future."

http://www.tennis-x.com/xblog/2015-05-26/19496.php

So you prefer to base your judgement on false reporting of what was said rather than the truth.
I hope you are never called for jury service  

Forget the title of this article
Speculative journalism
WHERE DOES RAFA USE THE WORD BANNED


“It was my request,” Nadal said. “I asked if it’s possible, but nothing personal against him 100%. I respect him like umpire, I respect him like person, and I consider him a good person more than that.

Oh, quit telling us what Rafa said. We know that already. I'm exploring how his action vs Bernades is being interpreted/viewed by the outside world, ok? Other people have opinions on what he says. You can't control that, ok?

So you would base your judgement on false reporting of any event in any article or newspaper because it agrees with your opinion rather than what is factual and the truth??

bogbrush wrote:Sounds like Rafa makes "requests" in the same way Sepp Blatter "investigates corruption".

Only SOUNDS like .. to those who only hear what the want. Deaf (sadly not dumb) an blind

Matchpoint, I think Haddie-Nuff is right and can't be blamed surely for quoting correctly the facts. Rafa did not confirm the word "ban" you are just quoting journalist spin. Anyway we are arguing over increasingly less and less. The distinction is not THAT important.

However, in the future let's all try and quote player's quotes in quotation marks, rather than journalist version of it. I know I myself was guilty of parroting back what the Telegraph said - several pages ago.

Henman Bill wrote:Matchpoint, I think Haddie-Nuff is right and can't be blamed surely for quoting correctly the facts. Rafa did not confirm the word "ban" you are just quoting journalist spin. Anyway we are arguing over increasingly less and less. The distinction is not THAT important.

However, in the future let's all try and quote player's quotes in quotation marks, rather than journalist version of it. I know I myself was guilty of parroting back what the Telegraph said - several pages ago.

Thanx HB

Also it would seem that such requests are much more common than people think as this report suggests:-

http://espn.go.com/tennis/french15/story/_/id/12957036/rafael-nadal-requests-chair-umpire-carlos-bernardes-not-work-matches

Hmm, so the ATP chairman circles the wagons around Nadal. What a shock!!

Meanwhile the World #1 condemns it, says he's never done it and refutes any suggestion it's regular.

So Djoko more of a man and ethical guy then Nadal?

Oh no, that means I might start to like Djoko too