Research into the use of the time violation rule - NEW petition expessing concern about it's inconsistant use

by hawkeye Sat 25 Apr 2015, 10:31 pm

First topic message reminder :

I am doing a little research into the application of the time violation rule. Players are meant to take no more than 25 seconds between points. If they take longer they are meant to be given a warning on the first violation and on subsequent ones lose a first serve. It is proving difficult to find information on the number of penalties handed out and if the rule is being enforced correctly. If anyone is interested maybe they could help?

I would like to know of any instances when players have received a warning or loss of first serve and what the score was at the time.

How often players go over 25 seconds without being penalized.

The first question could be perhaps partly answered from memory and partly from noting new incidents

The second question could be answered by watching parts of any match and timing a few points. I've found this easy to do by using the timer that appears when you rewind or slow live TV as it shows the seconds but a watch or clock would work fine. According to the ATP rule book timing should start when the ball goes out of play and stop when the ball is struck for the next point. I have gathered some information but it's impossible to watch all matches so any information would be useful.

Smile

NEW petition expressing concern about the inconsistent use of the time violation rule

Time limits for tennis players? Time for a response - a request to the ATP & ITF

We want to bring to your urgent attention the fact that growing numbers of tennis fans are raising serious concerns about the inconsistent application of the Time Violation Warning rule in ATP and ITF tournaments. This is beginning to spoil our enjoyment of this exceptional sport.

Umpires are currently issuing warnings randomly and arbitrarily, with some players who persistently go over the time limit not being penalised, and others regularly being given a warning.

In addition, it has been noted that the first warning of a match is suddenly given at a crucial point in a game - e.g. at break point - even when the time has been exceeded previously. We are concerned that this practice could significantly alter the outcome of a match.

We, the undersigned, urge you to find a way of regularising the application of the rule and respectfully request a formal response to the specific concerns highlighted in this petition.

Thank you.

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/time-limits-for-tennis-players-time-for-a

by Haddie-nuff Tue 26 May 2015, 5:32 pm

Post at 6.14, Let Rafa explain it to you Rolling Eyes

by temporary21 Tue 26 May 2015, 5:34 pm

To be honest im not sure anymore, Exactly what the rules constitutes.
For the Carlos thing, do we really believe that the ATP went and said "youve done your job as asked Carlos but Rafa thinks your picking on him so you cant umpire him anymore?"
Either the idea is just rumour and not true, or Carlos actually did do something wrong by the ATP and issued a punishment.

by HM Murdock Tue 26 May 2015, 5:34 pm

Born Slippy wrote:Timed a bit of Rafa's match. Rafa didn't have any points under 20 seconds when I was watching. Every time his opponent won a point on his serve he took significantly longer. The longest two were 37 seconds and 43 seconds. His opponent went over 20 seconds once - when a ball fell back from the roof.

43 seconds?!

I don't know if Rafa is getting scrutinised more than other players but, if he is, this is why.

I can understand how a player can regularly go a bit over. 25 secs probably doesn't 'feel' too different to 20 seconds.

But 43 seconds is ridiculous.

by temporary21 Tue 26 May 2015, 5:36 pm

Thats a long time, but what was the context, some points in my analysis ruled out ones with crowd disturbance and such.

by Guest Tue 26 May 2015, 5:38 pm

Was it a big point?

by **JuliusHMarx** Tue 26 May 2015, 5:39 pm

I have edited a post on the previous page. I refer posters to my post at 3:31

by Matchpoint Tue 26 May 2015, 5:41 pm

Haddie-nuff wrote:Post at 6.14, Let Rafa explain it to you

Page no.?

by CaledonianCraig Tue 26 May 2015, 5:42 pm

BBC Sport earlier put up a report that Rafa admitting he asked for Carlos not to umpire his matches after an incident in Rio. Apparently, Rafa wanted to change his shorts but Carlos said if he did he would give him a time violation. Seems more that he felt Carlos dealt with the matter disrespectfully. I never saw the incident so can't comment.

by Jahu Tue 26 May 2015, 5:42 pm

43 seconds? Was he going to both sides to get his towel or what?

by bogbrush Tue 26 May 2015, 5:45 pm

temporary21 wrote:To be honest im not sure anymore, Exactly what the rules constitutes.
For the Carlos thing, do we really believe that the ATP went and said "youve done your job as asked Carlos but Rafa thinks your picking on him so you cant umpire him anymore?"
Either the idea is just rumour and not true, or Carlos actually did do something wrong by the ATP and issued a punishment.

I dunno, but the alternative is a version of the scenario you described. It could go along the lines of "Rafa has complained about you so you're not umpiring him until he cools off".

I think in the absence off the slightest indication he did anything wrong, and Rafas public threat, that's a very reasonable hypothesis.

Edit: Just saw CC's post. So it is as suggested. I hope he learns his lesson and next time offers to hold his towel for him while he changes his shorts.

by temporary21 Tue 26 May 2015, 5:46 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:BBC Sport earlier put up a report that Rafa admitting he asked for Carlos not to umpire his matches after an incident in Rio. Apparently, Rafa wanted to change his shorts but Carlos said if he did he would give him a time violation. Seems more that he felt Carlos dealt with the matter disrespectfully. I never saw the incident so can't comment.

Aha! Trust cc to bring light to the situation. So it wasnt about being issued a tv, it was about a potential tv for changing shorts. Does that constitute a special circumstance? It is maybe somewhat harsh, but couldnt he have asked for a toilet break?

by temporary21 Tue 26 May 2015, 5:47 pm

bogbrush wrote:
temporary21 wrote:To be honest im not sure anymore, Exactly what the rules constitutes.
For the Carlos thing, do we really believe that the ATP went and said "youve done your job as asked Carlos but Rafa thinks your picking on him so you cant umpire him anymore?"
Either the idea is just rumour and not true, or Carlos actually did do something wrong by the ATP and issued a punishment.
I dunno, but the alternative is a version of the scenario you described. It could go along the lines of "Rafa has complained about you so you're not umpiring him until he cools off".

I think in the absence off the slightest indication he did anything wrong, and Rafas public threat, that's a very reasonable hypothesis.

Hes a big player, but I would personally be very surprised if the ATP took that stance, theyre a professional outfit, especially given how tough they want to be on this.
Has there been any confirmation at all that they have officially stopped him?

by bogbrush Tue 26 May 2015, 5:49 pm

No, there wouldn't be. They'd never comment on it.

by CaledonianCraig Tue 26 May 2015, 5:49 pm

From Rafa's words I would say it sounds more that he felt Carlos handled the matter disrespectfully perhaps in the attitude or way he worded what may have been a delicate matter for Rafa. As I say I can't comment on the incident but perhaps somewhere here watched that match in Rio.

by temporary21 Tue 26 May 2015, 6:00 pm

Ok heres the full quote from the bbc, apologies if that has been done already and got lost.
"Rafael Nadal has confirmed a story that appeared in last week's Telegraph saying he had requested not to have Brazilian Carlos Bernardes umpire his matches.
The Spaniard fell out with Bernardes at the Rio Open in February, with the player claiming he was not allowed to change his shorts after putting them on the wrong way around without incurring a time violation.
"It was my request, and the ATP talking about it," said Nadal. "I asked if it's possible, but nothing personal against him, 100%. I respect him as an umpire, I respect him as a person, and I consider him a good person more than that.
"I would love to have Bernardes on the court again. It will happen, but I think for both of us it is better to have a break. We had some problems. For me he was not enough respectful with me in Rio de Janeiro. That was my feeling when I put my shorts the other way."

So he asked for a bit of time to turn his shorts around and was told it would cost a tv. That is pretty harsh and id be very interested what the rules say about that as a special case. Im surprised Carlos said that, but equally surprised if the ATP agreeed to the request. Not as dramatic as I thought though. Surely a statement clarifying the rule on that thing would put an end to it

by Jahu Tue 26 May 2015, 6:14 pm

So Rafa the boss and bossing around umpires?

Cheeky git.

by bogbrush Tue 26 May 2015, 6:14 pm

That's appalling. Plus a load of bull from Nadal too. Who on Earth is he to say what's right about who runs matches?

Respect the Umpire and abide by his ruling.

by Jahu Tue 26 May 2015, 6:18 pm

Someone on EuroSport commenting last night said it: Rafa is scared to lose and is panicking with his game.

I assume this is the panic of him going downwards as a player is effecting his court behavior and time wasting between points.

He can't let himself lose the King of Clay name.

by Matchpoint Tue 26 May 2015, 6:21 pm

bogbrush wrote:It could go along the lines of "Rafa has complained about you so you're not umpiring him until he cools off".

Don't think so. Nadal himself said in Spanish as I've posted above that "i'm going to ask you don't umpire me ANY MORE." Sounds like he was REALLY peed; he ain't cooling off.

"¡Voy a pedir que no me arbitres nunca más"

by Matchpoint Tue 26 May 2015, 6:25 pm

In any event, given what he said and his tone, common sense would tell us that he engineered Carols being banned from umpiring his matches. No surprise at all. That's how influential he is.

by Matchpoint Tue 26 May 2015, 6:30 pm

Jahu wrote:So Rafa the boss and bossing around umpires?

Cheeky git.

c'mon, don't tell me you buy all that humble bull cr**. Laugh

by Guest Tue 26 May 2015, 7:32 pm

temporary21 wrote:Ok heres the full quote from the bbc, apologies if that has been done already and got lost.
"Rafael Nadal has confirmed a story that appeared in last week's Telegraph saying he had requested not to have Brazilian Carlos Bernardes umpire his matches.
The Spaniard fell out with Bernardes at the Rio Open in February, with the player claiming he was not allowed to change his shorts after putting them on the wrong way around without incurring a time violation.
"It was my request, and the ATP talking about it," said Nadal. "I asked if it's possible, but nothing personal against him, 100%. I respect him as an umpire, I respect him as a person, and I consider him a good person more than that.
"I would love to have Bernardes on the court again. It will happen, but I think for both of us it is better to have a break. We had some problems. For me he was not enough respectful with me in Rio de Janeiro. That was my feeling when I put my shorts the other way."

So he asked for a bit of time to turn his shorts around and was told it would cost a tv. That is pretty harsh and id be very interested what the rules say about that as a special case. Im surprised Carlos said that, but equally surprised if the ATP agreeed to the request. Not as dramatic as I thought though. Surely a statement clarifying the rule on that thing would put an end to it

If that really is the case and it was over shorts all I can say is picard

to both. Is it really going to take over 25 seconds to change your shorts the right way round??

Common sense should've prevailed in that instance.

by bogbrush Tue 26 May 2015, 7:44 pm

Regarding the rules, I think at the top level the tech is available to maintain an average of time. That way, the rule could be applied (not rewritten, just applied) along the following lines;

- nothing done until 10 serves are made
- at that point, should the average time be over 25/20 secs, the player is informed and gets 10 serves to bring the average down to standard
- if he hasn't, he gets a warning and his time is reset
- after that an average is maintained for 10 serves, if it's over it's a point
- same again, from here on the average has to be in the rules or it's another penalty

So no arguments about the odd point and absolutely no discretion: we're using averages so there's no single point excuses.

Oh, and no extra time to change your shorts. Do that at changeover and have someone hold a towel up if you're modest. Same goes for the guys.

by Haddie-nuff Tue 26 May 2015, 7:52 pm

temporary21 wrote:Ok heres the full quote from the bbc, apologies if that has been done already and got lost.
"Rafael Nadal has confirmed a story that appeared in last week's Telegraph saying he had requested not to have Brazilian Carlos Bernardes umpire his matches.
The Spaniard fell out with Bernardes at the Rio Open in February, with the player claiming he was not allowed to change his shorts after putting them on the wrong way around without incurring a time violation.
"It was my request, and the ATP talking about it," said Nadal. "I asked if it's possible, but nothing personal against him, 100%. I respect him as an umpire, I respect him as a person, and I consider him a good person more than that.
"I would love to have Bernardes on the court again. It will happen, but I think for both of us it is better to have a break. We had some problems. For me he was not enough respectful with me in Rio de Janeiro. That was my feeling when I put my shorts the other way."

So he asked for a bit of time to turn his shorts around and was told it would cost a tv. That is pretty harsh and id be very interested what the rules say about that as a special case. Im surprised Carlos said that, but equally surprised if the ATP agreeed to the request. Not as dramatic as I thought though. Surely a statement clarifying the rule on that thing would put an end to it

Ive already posted the full interview on the previous page...

by TRuffin Tue 26 May 2015, 7:54 pm

temporary21 wrote:Thats a long time, but what was the context, some points in my analysis ruled out ones with crowd disturbance and such.

Either Nadal was making a point that he wont be rushed, or has been told by officials that he's not going to get TV's going over 20 seconds, because he was blatantly slow today, and didn't seem to be even attempting to speed things up. I timed 3 service games as well. Haly was between 15-19 seconds with one serve that he hit at 22 seconds. Nadal was over 20 seconds every single time and in the 30's mostly. He faced one break point and slowed it to around 40 seconds. Way too long and very blatant he took that moment to slow down. NO TV's.

To me- there is no way the Tour is targeting him specifically to allow what I saw today... In fairness to him- if he is allowed to take it this far in a match like this with no TV's, then it would be unfair to suddenly hit him with one in a big match-- unless he is given prior warning by the umpire that he's going to enforce the rule... AS it looks now though- Nadal must feel that he's not going to get punished or the TV's he does get are worth getting when he's getting all this extra time.

As far as the umpire thing goes- I think the sport has a massive problem if he's really been allowed to dictate who gets to umpire his matches.

by bogbrush Tue 26 May 2015, 7:57 pm

Why should he speed up? If an Umpire pulls him up he'll have him removed from his matches.

Easy peasy.

by Haddie-nuff Tue 26 May 2015, 7:58 pm

The sport has a massive problem when an umpire can turn a blind eye to a violation which should have cost Kyrgos a match.

But of course we cant mention that censored

by bogbrush Tue 26 May 2015, 8:02 pm

The issue here is not an individual Umpires unique error in one match, but a players systematic breach of the rules and corruption of the officiating.

One is incompetence, the other is cheating.

That said, maybe we should have a thread about the ball hitting incident and leave this thread on topic?

by **JuliusHMarx** Tue 26 May 2015, 8:11 pm

Haddie-nuff wrote:The sport has a massive problem when an umpire can turn a blind eye to a violation which should have cost Kyrgos a match.

But of course we cant mention that

We have mentioned it. Quite a bit. It certainly hasn't been censored.

by Jahu Tue 26 May 2015, 8:19 pm

Matchpoint wrote:
Jahu wrote:So Rafa the boss and bossing around umpires?

Cheeky git.
c'mon, don't tell me you buy all that humble bull cr**.

No, I only love free things, so not buying it Laugh

by Matchpoint Tue 26 May 2015, 9:33 pm

Haddie-nuff wrote:Post at 6.14, Let Rafa explain it to you

I've now looked thru all the pages but 6.14 doesn't even exist. Have I really missed it? Rolling you eyes doesn't help me find it. Why don't you repost it or say which page it's on? You have no problem accusing me of not knowing how to read or understand but so vague and evasive now that I want to see which relevant posts you're referring to that I'm not following. I don't think that's too to ask.

by **JuliusHMarx** Tue 26 May 2015, 9:42 pm

Haddie means 5:14 (page 12), but it can show up as different times to different posters depending on which time zone their profile is set to.
So either a typo or a simple misunderstanding.

by Matchpoint Tue 26 May 2015, 9:48 pm

OK and much thanks indeed. thumbsup

(I'd asked her which page was it on but she didn't reply)

by Jahu Tue 26 May 2015, 9:53 pm

Good thread this.

by bogbrush Tue 26 May 2015, 10:03 pm

It's 6:14 from the Book of Rafa; "Letters to Officials" in which he says "if your brother calls upon you to play and you are not ready, because of mighty labours or tight undergarments, then tell him that it is for our Uncle alone to instruct us, and not for you to set yourself up on high, and tell him that he must sit down from his high chair and put aside the trappings of his high office, and ask forgiveness from our Uncle, lest he be cast down amongst the challengers"

by Jahu Tue 26 May 2015, 10:16 pm

Is this real or kind of irony?

by Matchpoint Tue 26 May 2015, 10:18 pm

JHM, at 13:49, HN posted "I have answered the question numerous times before is it my problem that you cant read or understand"

So obviously she was referring to materials posted BEFORE 13:49, and NUMEROUS TIMES. But then not a single such alleged "numerous" posts can be found BEFORE my post at 13:49.

I now see she only posted that Nadal-Carlos related interview more than 4 hours AFTER she accused me of not knowing how to read and understand non-existent answers she never posted.

Do you see the problem? No, I didn't misunderstand. It's bad enough bluffing her way along, but to insult people while doing it is just unacceptable. mad

by Matchpoint Tue 26 May 2015, 10:27 pm

Now I understand why she says let Nadal explain. As I said, she had no answers. Laugh

Look HN, I really don't mean to give you a hard time. But next time be sure you have proper back ups before you launch personal insults.

by **JuliusHMarx** Tue 26 May 2015, 10:29 pm

Matchpoint - I drew a line at the time I posted my warning (3.31 I think) - that enough was enough. So although I take your point, what's gone before that time is over and done with, although it has been noted.

I trust that from hereon in no posts from anyone will cross the line into what is unacceptable. Any further discussion from anyone on such issues should be via PM.

Thanks.

by hawkeye Tue 26 May 2015, 10:46 pm

Some people here really dislike Nadal it's as if he stole their sweets Rolling Eyes

I understand now why Barnardos hasn't been allowed to Umpire Nadal since Rio. I watched that match and know exactly what happened. It was played at about 3 in the morning in steaming heat and high humidity. The changing rooms were a long way off and at the end of a set Nadal went to the tunnel to change his shorts as they were literally dripping in sweat. He was in such a rush to return that he put the new ones on back to front. Most players would have returned to the tunnel straight away and changed them but Nadal played on until the next change of ends. Difficult as they were tight fitting and he could hardly move. When he asked to go to the tunnel to change them Barnardos must have said he'd give him a time violation if he did. So Nadal just wrapped a towel around and changed them on the court in front of spectators and viewers. How the commentators laughed! But the shocking thing was that Barnados was rolling around in his chair laughing too. In the circumstances Barnardos was lucky not to be disciplined.

IMO Nadal should do more than just complain to the ATP about one Umpire. He should get his team to challenge the ATP about their use of the time violation rule. It stinks.

I watched a bit of the Nadal/Halys match today. I didn't bother to use a stop watch but they were probably both taking over 20 seconds frequently. I doubt that anyone without a stop watch would realize they were both "making a mockery of the rule book" as the match was played in good sport, neither player used deliberate disruptions and play was continuous. Neither player was given a time violation. But if the Umpire had felt like it I'm sure he could have given either player a little shove on a crucial point.

bogbrush wrote:

That said, maybe we should have a thread about the ball hitting incident and leave this thread on topic?

Not just the ball hitting but all the other genuinely disruptive play that is visible for all to see. ie swearing, shouting abuse, racquet smashing. People talking about it being a bad example for children which of course is true but it is also deliberate gamesmanship that can and does affect opponents.

by bogbrush Tue 26 May 2015, 10:55 pm

Admirable persistence. Lesser mortals would have lost their faith long ago.

by Henman Bill Wed 27 May 2015, 12:09 am

If he got a TV for changing shorts that is really harsh although it doesn't justify the arrogance of saying on court "you won't umpire me again".

I would also note that the Telgraph article says he got 2 TVs, so presumably at least one of them was not shorts related. EDIT: This is a mistake, see below for correction.

by **JuliusHMarx** Wed 27 May 2015, 12:15 am

It was 2 different matches HB. The 'shorts' incident first (no tv, just a warning that he would get one if he took too much time), then the very next match with 2 tvs and the "you won't umpire me again".

by Silver Wed 27 May 2015, 12:46 am

Forget 43 seconds, more to the point is that Nadal wasn't under 20 seconds on any single point that BS was watching. And this from a poster who is not known for his criticisms of Rafa. I don't know how many points he watched, but...

Sadly I missed the match and others, but wanted to address Craig's point - the reason that it's important and needs to be looked at is because players will push and push until they're taking the urine. They arguably already are, and it certainly isn't just Nadal. I do appreciate the point about the drama of the match being paramount, and in many respects I agree entirely. I don't notice the long delays between points during many matches, particularly with replays and stats flying up all over the screen. But occasionally it is notably egregious and grating. Something needs to be done.

We're not really getting anywhere with this thread. Is it worth abandoning ship for now?

bogbrush wrote:Admirable persistence. Lesser mortals would have lost their faith long ago.

I'm also developing a grudging sense of admiration. I've turned to drink as a result.

by Henman Bill Wed 27 May 2015, 12:59 am

2 different matches, both at Rio?

by Henman Bill Wed 27 May 2015, 1:01 am

Silver, this thread is now like a runaway train without a driver. Until we run out of track or come to a canyon, no-one can stop it.

by hawkeye Wed 27 May 2015, 1:23 am

Henman Bill wrote:2 different matches, both at Rio?

Both Umpired by Bernardos. First the the Cuevas quarter final were Bernardos made Nadal change his shorts on court. At the beginning you can see Bernardos rolling about laughing after refusing him permission. Then after playing a game you see him change his shorts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RbIkEGzC6o

Then the Fognini semi at the change of ends after the two time violations

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOY1scQtjZA

Bernardos should have been disciplined. I'm sure all the self righteous people here unlike Nadal would have said nothing.

by Henman Bill Wed 27 May 2015, 1:32 am

Yes, sorry, I made a mistake above. Assumed it was just one match.

by Henman Bill Wed 27 May 2015, 2:08 am

OK, here is something to note.

Rafa says, in the you tube video "Voy a pedir que no me arbitres nunca mas".

It means "I am going to ask/request that you do not referee me again".

The telegraph reports that Rafa said: “I will make sure that you don’t arbitrate me anymore.” But, does not provide the original English.

Now, it could be that there is a second statement made by Rafa, not captured in the above video.

However, it seems likely that it's a mistranslation here.

The key point is the verb "pedir" which means "ask" or "request". Although he spoke in an irritated way, the verb is quite a polite one, and it no way carries any of the connatation of "I will make sure" - that is a mistranslation - in fact a glaring error - whether due to incompetent translation or just sexing up I am not sure.

In the video posted by Hawkeye, second link, Rafa says he will request that Bernados does not umpire him again. He does not say it will happen, or anything of the sort.

Unless there is a separate, second statement not shown in the video of course.

by Haddie-nuff Wed 27 May 2015, 2:22 am

Exactly and that is what he has repeated in the interview, earlier on this thread. The Spanish Language is notoriously difficult to literally translate into English.. I have repeatedly said in my posts that Rafa made A REQUEST but was shouted down by those who only WANT to believe otherwise.
Words such as banned, barred and corrupt have been used by those posters who only have one objective in mind on this thread. No interest whatsoever as to whether tvs or and other violations are being abused or not handed out to other players who deserve them. Whether indeed Umpires are being fair to all players.
. I refuse to take part in this insidious debate (if I dare call it that) any further ..its turned into a witch hunt..with one objective ..The crucifixion of Nadal
making snide remarks to other posters taken from their kindergarten book of humour..

by Sponsored content