England U20 World cup Thread.

[LondonTiger]

England U20 Championship Squad

Sebastian Adeniran-Olule (Harlequins)
Joseph Batley (Gloucester Rugby)
Charles Beckett (Leicester Tigers)
James Chisholm (Harlequins) *
Maxwell Clark (Bath Rugby)
Lloyd Evans (Gloucester Rugby)
Charlie  Ewels (Bath Rugby) (Capt)*
Ellis Genge (Bristol Rugby)
Paul Hill (Yorkshire Carnegie)  *
Owen Hills (Leicester Tigers)
Jack Innard (Exeter Chiefs)
Rory Jennings (Bath Rugby)
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints)
Joseph Marchant (Harlequins)
James Mitchell (Sale Sharks)
Aaron  Morris (Saracens) *
Piers O'Conor (Wasps)
William Owen (Leicester Tigers)
Howard Packman (Northampton Saints) *
Ciaran Parker (Sale Sharks)
George Perkins (Saracens)
Samuel Skinner (Exeter Chiefs)
Nick Tompkins (Saracens) *
Stuart Townsend (Exeter Chiefs)
Kieran Treadwell (Harlequins)
Jack Walker (Yorkshire Carnegie) *
William Witty (Newcastle Falcons)

Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints) was due to be named in the squad but misses out with injury.  His replacement will be named next week.

England World Rugby Under 20 Championship schedule

2 June, England vs Japan, kick-off 5.30pm BST, Stadio San Michele, Calvisano
6 June, England vs Wales, kick-off 7.30pm BST, Stadio San Michele, Calvisano
10 June, England vs France, kick-off 3.30pm BST, Stadio Luigi Zaffanella, Viadana
15 June, semi-final or play-off games. Details TBC
20 June, final and play-off games. Details TBC

[LondonTiger]

Starred players appeared in last year's tournament. Those in italics are uncapped. Players drawn from 12 clubs.

[lostinwales]

I am guessing we are the top seed for this. Seeing that line up of games it certainly helps

[Cumbrian]

Some good players in this group.

Stuart Townsend is a very good, attacking scrum half.

Nick Tompkins has the potential to be something very special at centre, he's somebody I've kept an eye on for a while. There was a bit of a suspicion about his defence last year, but I reckon time spent with Sarries' senior team will have sorted that out.

Charlie Ewels is a good leader, I've mentioned before that he reminds me of Martin Johnson a little bit.

Some good front rowers too, watch out for Ells Genge's carrying.

[Geordie]

Don't forget Witty, Cumbrian.

He's a big ol unit and gets his fair share of tries actually.

[Cumbrian]

Aye Witty is a big lad. not actually managed to see him play yet though!

[Poorfour]

James Chisholm is one to watch, too. Not full size yet but very powerful and showed up well in the LV= cup this season (sadly the rest of the Quins team didn't...)

[Cumbrian]

England team for this evening's game against Japan:

15 Aaron Morris (Saracens)
14 George Perkins (Saracens)
13 Nick Tompkins (Saracens)
12 Max Clark (Bath Rugby)
11 Tom Howe (Wasps)
10 Rory Jennings (Bath Rugby)
9 Stuart Townsend (Exeter Chiefs)

1 Ellis Genge (Bristol Rugby)
2 Jack Walker (Yorkshire Carnegie)
3 Paul Hill (Yorkshire Carnegie)
4 Will Witty (Newcastle Falcons)
5 Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, Captain)
6 Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints)
7 Will Owen (Leicester Tigers)
8 James Chisholm (Harlequins)

Replacements:

16 Jack Innard (Exeter Chiefs)
17 Sebastian Adeniran-Olule (Harlequins)
18 Ciaran Parker (Sale Sharks)
19 Sam Skinner (Exeter Chiefs)
20 Charlie Beckett (Leicester Tigers)
21 James Mitchell (Sale Sharks)
22 Lloyd Evans (Gloucester)
23 Piers O’Conor (Wasps)

[PenfroPete]

Now this isn't exclusively about England but

World U20 Championship
Tuesday 2 June: France v Wales - 3.30pm (S4C plus BT Sport 2)
Tuesday 2 June: Ireland v Argentina(TG4)
Tuesday 2 June: England v Japan - 5.30pm (BT Sport 2)
Tuesday 2 June: New Zealand v Scotland - 7.30pm (BT Sport 2)

Will be keeping this thread (on the Sticky's) as up to date as I can -

https://www.606v2.com/t6249-penfro-s-live-tv-guide-updated-tuesday-02-06-15-1058

[Poorfour]

Hadn't realised it started so early. Good timings, too. My place on the sofa is booked!

[Cumbrian]

I might just about get in time from work to watch it, but I don't have BT Sport! Might find a stream, but the motivation to watch them slaughter Japan (no disrespect intended) isn't the highest.

[Poorfour]

I might just about get in time from work to watch it, but I don't have BT Sport!  Might find a stream, but the motivation to watch them slaughter Japan (no disrespect intended) isn't the highest.  

Will they, though? A rout would be expected at senior level, but most of these nations have been investing in their youth players for a similar length of time and I think the quality of players is a lot closer.

[Cumbrian]

I agree that it is probably closer than it was, but I still expect England to put 20-30 points on them at least. I am honestly not trying to be dismissive, but they lost to Uruguay in last year's Championship (the lower division) and struggled to beat Namibia. I hope I am wrong, but I can see a routing.

[HammerofThunor]

Well it's 33-0 after 20 mins

[LondonTiger]

Quick tap taken from in front of the mark surely?

[Cumbrian]

Certainly looked like it.

[Cumbrian]

Seemed a waste to kick that, especially when it was poorly executed.

[Cumbrian]

That is better.

[HammerofThunor]

I think the ref thought Tompkins was going to high-5 him then. Looked disappointed when he realised it was the England player behind him.

[Cumbrian]

45-0 at half time. Japan can't live with the physicality of the England team and at times it has looked more like an open training session. However, England have shown good skills in attack and at the breakdown. You have got to wonder what the value of a fixture like this is. Assuming that England don't completely take their foot off the pedal this could (should?) be at the very least 60+

[Geordie]

Is Witty playing well? He's one we have quite high hopes of up here in Newcastle .
Though I appreciate it's difficult to tell in a game like that

[LondonTiger]

Is Witty playing well?

It was hard to tell as the commentator kept crediting Witty with things done by skipper Ewels

[Gwlad]

Is Witty playing well?  

It was hard to tell as the commentator kept crediting Witty with things done by skipper Ewels

Mistaken identity, let's hope neither feature in a post arrest Identification procedure in the coming weeks, though the odds of that are obviously very low.

[Cumbrian]

Is Witty playing well?  

It was hard to tell as the commentator kept crediting Witty with things done by skipper Ewels

Mistaken identity, let's hope neither feature in a post arrest Identification procedure in the coming weeks, though the odds of that are obviously very low.

Put a sock in it.

[HammerofThunor]

Is Witty playing well?  

It was hard to tell as the commentator kept crediting Witty with things done by skipper Ewels

And wasn't one wearing a scrum cap and the other not?

[Gwlad]

Is Witty playing well?  

It was hard to tell as the commentator kept crediting Witty with things done by skipper Ewels

And wasn't one wearing a scrum cap and the other not?

Are we sure it wasn't a hoodie?

[propdavid_london]

What was the final result?
I saw the 1st half and although the score line was quite impressive, I cant help feeling that was down to the quality of oppo.
We wont know till they play a stronger side, but I get the feeling that this U20s side isnt quite as strong as the last couple of seasons.

I look forward to being prooved wrong but I havent seen any superstars in there yet - but they do seem to be a good unit that works well together. Perhaps Chisholm could be up there.

Stars of the past U20s that stand out in games Ive watched are - Marler, Ford, Itoje, LCD, J.Clifford,

[lostinwales]

59-7. After that first half it seems that they really slowed down.

[Cyril]

Stars of the past U20s that stand out in games Ive watched are - Marler, Ford, Itoje, LCD, J.Clifford,

Launchbury looked the real deal in 2011. You could tell he was going to be something special. I remember being particularly impressed by his work-rate and I'm pretty sure he performed 3 try-saving tackles in one game.

[propdavid_london]

59-7 is still a hammering - but as you say, after the 1st half it should have been more.
Yes Cyril, I forgot Launchbury.

Thats kind of what I mean - Im not sure if this U20s group is as convincing as previous seasons - But, there has only been 1 game and perhaps sterner oppo will bring out that edge in this group

[Cumbrian]

Stars of the past U20s that stand out in games Ive watched are - Marler, Ford, Itoje, LCD, J.Clifford,

Launchbury looked the real deal in 2011. You could tell he was going to be something special. I remember being particularly impressed by his work-rate and I'm pretty sure he performed 3 try-saving tackles in one game.

I seem to remember that too, it was against South Africa too.

It is good how quickly players can come through the U20's to be stalwarts of the senior team now. The system really appears to be working.

[LondonTiger]

I seem to remember that too, it was against South Africa too.

It is good how quickly players can come through the U20's to be stalwarts of the senior team now.  The system really appears to be working.

Though there is a limit as to how many U20s people can break through. Take Itoje - his best chance of becoming a fixture in the England team come RWC 2019 will be at BS as Lawes & Launchbury should be about hitting their peak by then.

[BamBam]

Hopefully that level of competition will drive them all on, there seems to be an endless line of locks at the moment

[Rugby Fan]

I seem to remember that too, it was against South Africa too.

It is good how quickly players can come through the U20's to be stalwarts of the senior team now.  The system really appears to be working.

Though there is a limit as to how many U20s people can break through. Take Itoje - his best chance of becoming a fixture in the England team come RWC 2019 will be at BS as Lawes & Launchbury should be about hitting their peak by then.

That's an important point. I often see posts speculating about wholesale changes for the next World Cup. What if we win this one? I don't expect we will, but it isn't a completely outlandish thought. How many spots can new talent claim?

One risk for the future might be losing players to France or Japan if they think they are down the pecking order. We might even lose some to other countries if we don't cap them, which is the problem South Africa faces.

[propdavid_london]

Or that Gloucester Kid - Was it Ross Moriarty? Back row thats come through the England age grade and he stood out as a decent prospect. Now in Gatlands WC training squad.

[Fanster]

Sorry to ask this here, but not sure where else to ask, does anyoone know of any tv coverage etc for the U20 world cup?

Thanks

[propdavid_london]

Its on Sky Sports

[BamBam]

Its an interesting point .. this England side isn't particularly old, so do you just decide to drop players that are playing well in order to look to the future? Not for me, the best way is to bring players in to a winning side, like NZ do.

Having said that, the players I would expect to be slowly phased out within 18 months or so other than the obvious ones like Easter are people like Brown, Barritt, Ashton and Parling off the top of my head.

Not so many obvious players

[BamBam]

Sorry to ask this here, but not sure where else to ask, does anyoone know of any tv coverage etc for the U20 world cup?

Thanks

PenfroPete posts an excellent guide to tv rugby coverage weekly here

https://www.606v2.com/t6249p150-penfro-s-live-tv-guide-updated-tuesday-02-06-15-1058#2963287

[Fanster]

Thanks prop

[HammerofThunor]

The last game was on BT sports.

Regarding Moriarty, he happened to have been born in England but grew up in Wales and only went through some of the English system because his dad was living in England at the time. He's basically as Welsh as anyone.

A better example is a guy like Heathcote. Happened to have been born in Scotland but his parents moved back to England when he was very young. Knew he was behind Ford so went with Scotland. Hopefully the best potential will stay but you never know.

[LondonTiger]

Looking at the current full squad 8 of 51 are currently 30 or over

Easter (36); Parling, Strettle, Wiggy (31); Dickson, Haskell, Myler, Wilson (30).

Most of these will be phased out before the end of the season. Haskell will hang a round for a bit longer and Wilson could well make it to the next WC.

A further twenty-one are currently 26-29, so would be in their 30s in four years time. Perhaps half of this will drop out of contention in the next 4 years as better, younger players replace them:

Brown, Hartley, Robshaw (29); Ashton, Attwood, Barritt, Care, Cole, Mullan, Webber, wood, Youngs (28); Burrell, Cipriani, Goode (27); Burgess, Corbs, Lawes, Morganb, Slater, Twelvetrees (26)

the remainder are all currently 25 or under. Most will be in contention in four years time, but some will lose form. Of these about a dozen have played in JWCs since the last full world cup. I doubt we will see any more than that in the 2019 extended squad from the players in the current JWC and subsequent years. Of course there will be some new faces from the last 4 JWCs to bolster the ranks.

[Cumbrian]

Yeah, Moriarty choosing to play for Wales is one of the least surprising things I've read this week.

Regarding Itoje, I disagree that his only chance will come at blindside. Who is to say that he won't be better than Lawes or Launchbury in a few years? I sometimes think we set ceilings on our expectations (which is funny because we also overly hype players sometimes). If they are good enough (which many now are) they will come through.

Some players born and brought through the English system will ALWAYS defect to other countries, it is a historic occurrence and will be a future one. The thing you've got to ask yourself is how great a loss they player defecting will be.

In the case of Heathcote you would say that he is behind a shed load of players in England and at least third in the pecking order in Scotland. Is that a massive loss or gain for either nation? Not to my mind.

Moriaty is a more interesting one because I think he will be a great boon for Wales. Outside of Lydiate they are low on abrasive traditional blind-sides. England don't have so many top end types of these either, but we haven't used that type of player in a long while... So who knows?

Ultimately I believe England can now cope with the poaching of our young players better than at any time before. I doubt we'll ever see a situation like we did a few year ago when the 2nd row cupboard was bare and Scotland, Ireland and Wales had English born locks lining up for them.

[Cumbrian]

Looking at the current full squad 8 of 51 are currently 30 or over

Easter (36); Parling, Strettle, Wiggy (31); Dickson, Haskell, Myler, Wilson (30).

Most of these will be phased out before the end of the season. Haskell will hang a round for a bit longer and Wilson could well make it to the next WC.

A further twenty-one are currently 26-29, so would be in their 30s in four years time. Perhaps half of this will drop out of contention in the next 4 years as better, younger players replace them:

Brown, Hartley, Robshaw (29); Ashton, Attwood, Barritt, Care, Cole, Mullan, Webber, wood, Youngs (28); Burrell, Cipriani, Goode (27); Burgess, Corbs, Lawes, Morganb, Slater, Twelvetrees (26)

the remainder are all currently 25 or under. Most will be in contention in four years time, but some will lose form. Of these about a dozen have played in JWCs since the last full world cup. I doubt we will see any more than that in the 2019 extended squad from the players in the current JWC and subsequent years. Of course there will be some new faces from the last 4 JWCs to bolster the ranks.

Of these I can see Ashton, Hartley and Cipriani heading over to France relatively soon. I wonder if Burgess will stick around should his World Cup ambitions be fulfilled (or not)? Will Morgan be the same player he was before his injury? Will 36 and Burrell continue to play themselves out of contention? Will Brown start to slow down too much (like Cueto did?) Can Corbs stay fit? Lots of questions will need to be answered in my opinion.

[HammerofThunor]

Here's the squad for the last World Cup

Forwards (25): Props: Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Alex Corbisiero (London Irish), Paul Doran-Jones (Northampton Saints), Tim Payne (London Wasps), Andrew Sheridan (Sale Sharks), Matt Stevens (Saracens), David Wilson (Bath Rugby). Hookers: George Chuter (Leicester Tigers), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Lee Mears (Bath Rugby), Steve Thompson (London Wasps). Locks: Mouritz Botha (Saracens), Louis Deacon (Leicester Tigers), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Tom Palmer (Stade Francais), Simon Shaw (London Wasps). Back row: Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers), Nick Easter (Harlequins), Hendre Fourie (Sale Sharks), James Haskell (Unattached), Lewis Moody (Bath Rugby), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints), Joe Worsley (London Wasps).
Backs (20): Full-backs: Delon Armitage (London Irish), Ben Foden (Northampton Saints). Wings: Chris Ashton (Northampton Saints), Mark Cueto (Sale Sharks), Ugo Monye (Harlequins), Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby), James Simpson-Daniel (Gloucester Rugby), David Strettle (Saracens). Centres: Matt Banahan (Bath Rugby), Riki Flutey (London Wasps), Shontayne Hape (London Irish), Mike Tindall (Gloucester Rugby), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers). Fly-halves: Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers), Charlie Hodgson (Saracens), Jonny Wilkinson (Toulon). Scrum-halves: Danny Care (Harlequins), Joe Simpson (London Wasps), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

Quick count has about 13 out of the 45(?). A couple more would have been involved if not for injures/stupidity

[LondonTiger]

True, Itoje may improve enough to oust one of L&L. Will need a hell of an improvement in the basics though - as everytime I have seen him play as a second row he seems to struggle in the lineout. But at 20 plenty of time to improve.

[LondonTiger]

Here's the squad for the last World Cup

Forwards (25): Props: Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Alex Corbisiero (London Irish), Paul Doran-Jones  (Northampton Saints), Tim Payne (London Wasps), Andrew Sheridan (Sale Sharks), Matt Stevens (Saracens), David Wilson (Bath Rugby). Hookers: George Chuter (Leicester Tigers), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Lee Mears (Bath Rugby), Steve Thompson (London Wasps). Locks: Mouritz Botha (Saracens), Louis Deacon (Leicester Tigers), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Tom Palmer (Stade Francais), Simon Shaw (London Wasps). Back row: Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers), Nick Easter (Harlequins), Hendre Fourie (Sale Sharks), James Haskell (Unattached), Lewis Moody (Bath Rugby), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints), Joe Worsley (London Wasps).
Backs (20): Full-backs: Delon Armitage (London Irish), Ben Foden (Northampton Saints). Wings: Chris Ashton (Northampton Saints), Mark Cueto (Sale Sharks), Ugo Monye (Harlequins), Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby), James Simpson-Daniel (Gloucester Rugby), David Strettle (Saracens). Centres: Matt Banahan (Bath Rugby), Riki Flutey (London Wasps), Shontayne Hape (London Irish), Mike Tindall (Gloucester Rugby), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers). Fly-halves: Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers), Charlie Hodgson (Saracens), Jonny Wilkinson (Toulon). Scrum-halves: Danny Care (Harlequins), Joe Simpson (London Wasps), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

Quick count has about 13 out of the 45(?).  A couple more would have been involved if not for injures/stupidity

Quick count shows almost half that squad (21) have since retired.

[Cumbrian]

You can't imagine the squad will see that much turnover, the average age of the 2011 squad must be much higher than the current one. Loads of those guys were already in their 30s:

Tim Payne
Andrew Sheridan
George Chuter
Lee Mears
Steve Thopmson
Louis Deacon
Tom Palmer
Simon Shaw
Nick Easter
Hendre Fourie
Lewis Moody
Joe Worsley

Mark Cueto
Shontayne Hape
Mike Tindall
Charlie Hodgson
Jonny Wilkinson

[Geordie]

It depends on the standard of the current players. Regardless of age...if the current player is not as good as the incoming one...then he will be replaced. I don't for see many of those mind.

A few here and there....Inside Centre, possibly SH, Back Row etc

[LondonTiger]

Recent vintage SHs have not really kicked on, though at 25 the incumbent Ben Youngs is not exactly close to drawing his pension. With Dickson and Wiggy likely to be phased out soon and Care not ancient but not a spring chicken either we coudl do with some really making a move forward.

In last years squad we had the squad captain Braley, who was omitted for the lad at Loughbrough (Taylor?) who is I think on Sarries books and graduating this summer. Neither have featured prominently at AP level - though Braley shoudl get some games for Glaws next season. Dan Robson has yet to make the progress we hoped and we shall see whether his move to Coventry helps. Ben Spencer has gone backwards.

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