Championship Playoff 2 - Worcester v Bristol

I thought that I'd adapt the playoff 1 thread into a match thread for tonight's match. I know it's not quite as glossy as other posters matchday threads (no pictures or logos) but hopefully it's fit for purpose!

Sixways (kick-off 7.45pm Wed 27th May)

Live on Sky Sports 1

Warriors

15 Chris Pennell
14 Tom Biggs
13 Alex Grove
12 Ryan Mills
11 Cooper Vuna
10 Ryan Lamb
9 JB Bruzulier
1 Val Rapava Ruskin
2 Agustin Creevy
3 Nick Schonert
4 James Percival
5 Jonathan Thomas
6 Mike Williams
7 Sam Betty
8 GJ van Velze (C)

Replacements
16 Niall Annett
17 Ryan Bower
18 Joe Rees
19 Leonardo Senatore
20 Jamie Shillcock
21 Ravai Fatiaki
22 Ben Howard

Bristol:

Wallace
Amesbury
Tovey
Mosses
Lemi
Robinson
Peel (capt)
Traynor
Brooker
Cortes
Glynn
Sorenson
Mama
Lam
Eadie

Replacements: Crumpton, Perenise, Townson, Robinson, Kessell, Morgan, Maule

It's basically all square with Worcester just one point up after the first match at Bristol. A last minute try by Annett which was duly converted by Lamb gives this narrow advantage to Worcester. Sixways is a sell out so there will be over 12000 fans there with 3000 from Bristol expected to make the 60 mile journey up the M5.

Bristol have beaten Worcester twice already this season and in my opinion are narrow favourites tonight. The overall record between the clubs is 13-6 in Worcester's favour with one draw.

Your thoughts and predictions would be very welcome!

Bristol are going to be gutted to have spent so much and got nothing back if they fail to go up again!

I have mixed feelings about Worcester, yes they've earnt it fi they get promoted and yes they've done it based on a solid team and club. But their seasonal yoyo's who I don't think bring anything to the Prem.

At least Welsh gave is Poopie loads of tries!

Really enjoyed the game. Hope Henson is okay. Looked like a nasty injury. Next weds should be a cracker.

Am very interested in this - I would love to see Andy Robinson giving angry interviews to the Premiership press again.

For all Jeff fans - is the gap between the Championship and the Premiership as huge as the promotion system makes it seem? Welsh got absolutely horsed by everyone this season and I don't recall Wuss faring much better during their top flight tenure. Exeter have bucked the trend but is it fare to say that if Wuss gets back up, they are in for another season of being a speed bump to every other team in the league?

I thought it was a great game, both teams keen to play and look for tries.

Henson's injury looked very nasty, was it his ankle? They decided against showing the replay.

I think both the teams will cope better than London Welsh did. They both benefit from wealthy benefactors, so have got some pretty big names, Dwayne Peel, Jack Lam, Ryan Jones, Cooper Vuna, Chris Pennell and Augustin Creevy. Also the big advantage they have is a settled squad. Didn't Welsh sign up twenty odd new players at the last minute? These teams have been planning on returns to the Premiership for a while.

Will there be any infrastructure requirements (stadium size, etc) stopping either of these teams going up?

Both teams meet the requirements. Sixways is lovely but a bit out of town. 

Henson has a broken shin. When he was being carried off some supporters (unsure if they were Briz or Wuzz) were chanting "Cheerio". They were also booing him when he was down. I'll be honest and say it's the most anti rugby thing i've ever heard at a game.

Yes both teams meet all of the requirements as I understand them and I think both have the potential to do much better than London Welsh - that would not be hard though.

Disgusting chanting Coleman - no place for that in rugby or any sport. I hope Henson recovers as quickly as possible.

Shame there has to be a loser. I would like to see both teams in the AP.

beshocked wrote:Shame there has to be a loser. I would like to see both teams in the AP.

That might end up being the case if the AP is extended to 14? Not sure when that is due to happen though and how likely it is...

stub wrote:

beshocked wrote:Shame there has to be a loser. I would like to see both teams in the AP.

That might end up being the case if the AP is extended to 14? Not sure when that is due to happen though and how likely it is...

Will they be ring fencing the top flight at that point?

Coleman wrote:

stub wrote:

beshocked wrote:Shame there has to be a loser. I would like to see both teams in the AP.

That might end up being the case if the AP is extended to 14? Not sure when that is due to happen though and how likely it is...

Will they be ring fencing the top flight at that point?

I think there is talk of ring fencing it for a period of time but not forever...

This would be good for the likes of Worcester IMO as it would give them time to build and develop and become more competitive on their modest budget!

Hard to see any team coming up and being as poor as London Welsh.  When Rotherham was up in 2003-04, they had some competitive performances.  I just looked it up to be sure.
This season London Welsh scored 223 points and gave up 1021 and secured 1 bonus point.  Points diff was -798, losing by an average of 36 points per game.
in 2003-04 Rotherham scored 309 and gave up 770, with 3 bonus points.  Points diff was -461, losing by an average of 21 points per game.
Clearly Rotherham were dreadful.  But London Welsh took that to a new dimension.  

To me, there is no point for promotion of teams that poor.  Does nothing to add to the premiership and usually sets back the team involved.  

Not sure the right answer.  Clearly ensuring a 100% level financial playing field for newly promoted clubs in important, from financial payments to financial standards, stadium requirements minimum salary levels and so on.  

I do wonder if Promotion/Relegation is really viable any more.  I would like to see a test over a few seasons where promotion/relegation is every second year.  No expansion as yet.  Let's see if Championship clubs can take the extra time and really get their houses in order so they can compete once they get to the top level.

I was reading something about Bristol which suggested that they have aspirations to become a really big player with a 27000 seater stadium and a combined Rugby/Football/Basketball Bristol Sports Club. They have to get past Wuss first though which I hope doesn't happen.

I think either of Worcester or Bristol (with a bit of strengthening) could hold their own in the AP to be honest and it wouldn't be a given that they'd be the whipping boys...

stub not sure to be honest.

London Irish look to have made some good recruits. Newcastle had the benefit of this season with London Welsh being so far off the pace.

As for every other team - I expect them to be too strong.

Perhaps their hope is that Bath or Saracens get hit by the a points deduction if they get found guilty of breaking the cap.

Wuss, Bristol and Yorkshire seem capable of going up. I think Bristol would more than likely stay up given their team and financial backing. Surprised they choked yesterday after already beating Wuss twice, didn't they conceded a few tries too? It casts a lot of doubt in my mind about Bristol's chances.

I think Ashton Gate will give Bris the largest club rugby stadium in the country once it has been completed. What does Welford Road hold?

chris_501 wrote:I think Ashton Gate will give Bris the largest club rugby stadium in the country once it has been completed. What does Welford Road hold?

Welford Road will be 26k next season, but behind the 32.5k at the Ricoh for Wasps.

Bristol is a big, wealthy city. Makes a lot of sense to have a top flight team there. The Prem (like discussed) should probably be ring-fenced.

The best player on the field last night, by a country mile was Jonathan Thomas, the old dog still has life in him yet.

beshocked wrote:stub not sure to be honest.

London Irish look to have made some good recruits. Newcastle had the benefit of this season with London Welsh being so far off the pace.

As for every other team - I expect them to be too strong.

Perhaps their hope is that Bath or Saracens get hit by the a points deduction if they get found guilty of breaking the cap.

Must admit Beshocked, that it was Irish and Newcastle that I saw Wuss/Bris competing with initially. If they've moved up a gear then it could be tough without major strengthening from the team that comes up.

Is it true, that if Bristol go up, they will be instantly breaking the salary cap ?

The Saint wrote:Wuss, Bristol and Yorkshire seem capable of going up. I think Bristol would more than likely stay up given their team and financial backing. Surprised they choked yesterday after already beating Wuss twice, didn't they conceded a few tries too? It casts a lot of doubt in my mind about Bristol's chances.

Yeah, Wuss scored 5 tries I think and Lamb missed a lot of kicks...

I just want to clear up what I said about the fans and Henson going off injured. This is a post from a user on another forum who was at the game: 

"The fans weren't booing Henson, they were booing the Worcester fan who was getting a talking to from stewards (and eventually an escort out of the stands) after they screamed out "Warriors!" just as Henson was kicking a penalty (which drifted wide) a few minutes prior to his injury.
Unfortunately their removal coincided with Henson being treated, but rest assured there was nothing but (well deserved) respect shown to Henson when they stretchered him off down the tunnel."

Coleman wrote:I just want to clear up what I said about the fans and Henson going off injured. This is a post from a user on another forum who was at the game: 

"The fans weren't booing Henson, they were booing the Worcester fan who was getting a talking to from stewards (and eventually an escort out of the stands) after they screamed out "Warriors!" just as Henson was kicking a penalty (which drifted wide) a few minutes prior to his injury.
Unfortunately their removal coincided with Henson being treated, but rest assured there was nothing but (well deserved) respect shown to Henson when they stretchered him off down the tunnel."

Good to hear.

Bristol have to be careful that the don't get a reputation for breaking their top imports. They seem to have been unlucky with injuries

LordDowlais wrote:The best player on the field last night, by a country mile was Jonathan Thomas, the old dog still has life in him yet.

Agree - he was great!

LordDowlais wrote:Is it true, that if Bristol go up, they will be instantly breaking the salary cap ?

I don't how there is anyway that could be verified one way or the other, especially by anyone on here. If they are it shows moronic management given it means they would have to weaken if promoted.

On the LW front, they did a lot better the first time they came up, late surge by Sale and the point deduction put them down. This time they were arguably stronger but did badly. They also brought in a load of 'quality' players. Fundamentally it comes down to the coaching, that's why Exeter have done well, not because they brought in a load of star players. It's a very short sighted path that often fails.

Good luck to Worcester. It's getting a bit crowded down in the South West and they're a bit further out of it.

So if the AP is ring fenced at 14 teams can it only be the current AP (minus LW) plus Bristol, Worcester and Yorkshire?

What about Rotherham Titans?

stub wrote:

beshocked wrote:stub not sure to be honest.

London Irish look to have made some good recruits. Newcastle had the benefit of this season with London Welsh being so far off the pace.

As for every other team - I expect them to be too strong.

Perhaps their hope is that Bath or Saracens get hit by the a points deduction if they get found guilty of breaking the cap.

Must admit Beshocked, that it was Irish and Newcastle that I saw Wuss/Bris competing with initially. If they've moved up a gear then it could be tough without major strengthening from the team that comes up.

Big name signings don't always work. I remember when there were thoughts that Sale were going to be top 4 challengers after signing Richie Gray and Danny Cipriani - as it turns out they were almost relegated.

I just like the look of the players LI have signed for next season. Doesn't necessary mean I will be right though.

Hammerofthunor is right. The coaching is important.

Look at Gloucester for example - they brought in the likes of Hibbard,Hook,Laidlaw,Afoa,Twelvetrees and Morgan but it hasn't reaped dividends yet.

Exeter are not a star studded team yet they have done well. Doing the double over Saracens and Saints who have more well known names is pretty impressive and shows that matches are not won on paper.

beshocked wrote:

stub wrote:

beshocked wrote:stub not sure to be honest.

London Irish look to have made some good recruits. Newcastle had the benefit of this season with London Welsh being so far off the pace.

As for every other team - I expect them to be too strong.

Perhaps their hope is that Bath or Saracens get hit by the a points deduction if they get found guilty of breaking the cap.

Must admit Beshocked, that it was Irish and Newcastle that I saw Wuss/Bris competing with initially. If they've moved up a gear then it could be tough without major strengthening from the team that comes up.

Big name signings don't always work. I remember when there were thoughts that Sale were going to be top 4 challengers after signing Richie Gray and Danny Cipriani - as it turns out they were almost relegated.

I just like the look of the players LI have signed for next season. Doesn't necessary mean I will be right though.

Hammerofthunor is right. The coaching is important.

Look at Gloucester for example - they brought in the likes of Hibbard,Hook,Laidlaw,Afoa,Twelvetrees and Morgan but it hasn't reaped dividends yet.

Exeter are not a star studded team yet they have done well. Doing the double over Saracens and Saints who have more well known names is pretty impressive and shows that matches are not won on paper.

Exeter are the model that I hope Wuss will emulate one day - truly inspirational what they have achieved. I take your point on the big name signings - no guarantee of success from those but, as you say with London Irish, the correct signings have the potential to make a team more competitive.

The Great Aukster wrote:So if the AP is ring fenced at 14 teams can it only be the current AP (minus LW) plus Bristol, Worcester and Yorkshire?

What about Rotherham Titans?

It depends how they determine them. For a start it would need the RFU to sign off on it, not sure if that will happen. Then, I would expect (hope) for some sort of licensing criteria based on financial stability, location, infrastructure, and, of course, performance. There's not really much point speculating at the minute, because the agreement to ring-fence has to happen first.

stub wrote:

beshocked wrote:

stub wrote:

beshocked wrote:stub not sure to be honest.

London Irish look to have made some good recruits. Newcastle had the benefit of this season with London Welsh being so far off the pace.

As for every other team - I expect them to be too strong.

Perhaps their hope is that Bath or Saracens get hit by the a points deduction if they get found guilty of breaking the cap.

Must admit Beshocked, that it was Irish and Newcastle that I saw Wuss/Bris competing with initially. If they've moved up a gear then it could be tough without major strengthening from the team that comes up.

Big name signings don't always work. I remember when there were thoughts that Sale were going to be top 4 challengers after signing Richie Gray and Danny Cipriani - as it turns out they were almost relegated.

I just like the look of the players LI have signed for next season. Doesn't necessary mean I will be right though.

Hammerofthunor is right. The coaching is important.

Look at Gloucester for example - they brought in the likes of Hibbard,Hook,Laidlaw,Afoa,Twelvetrees and Morgan but it hasn't reaped dividends yet.

Exeter are not a star studded team yet they have done well. Doing the double over Saracens and Saints who have more well known names is pretty impressive and shows that matches are not won on paper.

Exeter are the model that I hope Wuss will emulate one day - truly inspirational what they have achieved. I take your point on the big name signings - no guarantee of success from those but, as you say with London Irish, the correct signings have the potential to make a team more competitive.

The odd star, best to be someone who galvanizes all around them, rather than the flashy player. Some of the best make everyone around them look good rather than just standing out. The whole team plays better when they're in and on song. Evans, Mauger, Lowe, Braid are all examples of that. Piri Weepu was not.

Lowe or Louw?

It was a great game, and great to see guys like Cooper Vuna and David Lemi in a bit of space and eventually an Ulsterman* was the hero!

*us letting Annett go was very disappointing in the long term and I hope he comes back to us again with a bit more experience

LondonTiger wrote:Lowe or Louw?

The furrin one.

Notch wrote:It was a great game, and great to see guys like Cooper Vuna and David Lemi in a bit of space and eventually an Ulsterman* was the hero!

*us letting Annett go was very disappointing in the long term and I hope he comes back to us again with a bit more experience

Annett was indeed a hero Notch - his never say die attitude paid dividends for Wuss in a big way.

I looked for tickets for next Wednesday's rematch and could only find 4 odd standing tickets as of yesterday evening so it's looking like a full house at Sixways.

By the way:

COME ON WUSS!

Also by the way:

Tonight's team info and blurb at the top of thread.

Bristol look more affected by injuries from the first leg. No Henson or Ryan Jones. Nick Robinson in to replace Morgan. Surprised to see Maule dropped to the bench.

Wuss name the same team. Nice sunny day but lots of rain due later, it could be a very interesting one.

Having no dog in the fight directly I am at least pleased to see two teams who could both be competitive in terms of a relegation fight in position to come up.
Will confess to a soft spot for Wusser having went to Sixways for a pre-season game back in August and had a great night out.

I've always been a fan of Nick(y) Robinson, but it does highlight Bristol's plight that they've had to bring him in to take over the kicking duties. I'm really surprised to not see Morgan moved to FB as he's been one of the Championships' top performers and surely Bris need him on the pitch. He will be a good impact sub, but will he be brought on if they need to close out the game?

For me Bris are less than the sum of their parts. They have some outstanding individuals, but they don't play as an effective unit. I saw them put 50 points past Nottingham a few months ago, yet if they'd played like that against a Jeff side they would have been murdered. The loss of Henson and Jones will be huge and I'm very surprised to see Perenise on the bench, as Bris need to bully that Wuss pack.

Wuss are the opposite to Bris, in that they don't have any star names, yet they play far more cohesively. 11-15 are all strong players who would grace a number of Jeff sides. Their half backs do let them down though and Lamby continues to be so inconsistent and his kicking last match was dire. Their pack is Sale-esque, again no big names, but very workmanlike. They will need Creevy, Thomas and Betty to have huge games.

I have a feeling that Wuss will do it tonight, but it will be close. Dean Ryan has implemented a completely different culture and whilst they would be favourites to come straight back down he is putting together a squad that has the potential to cause a few upsets and make some of the other Jeff sides rather nervous. Wuss are hardly paupers, but despite the difference in funding I do feel they are better equipped to stay up than Bris. Having said that I do sorely miss the Bris Glaws games and would love to have them back again, although playing at Ashton Gate won't be the same as the rather iconic Mem.

Irish Londoner wrote:Having no dog in the fight directly I am at least pleased to see two teams who could both be competitive in terms of a relegation fight in position to come up.
Will confess to a soft spot for Wusser having went to Sixways for a pre-season game back in August and had a great night out.

Great stuff Irish Londoner!!

HongKongCherry wrote:I've always been a fan of Nick(y) Robinson, but it does highlight Bristol's plight that they've had to bring him in to take over the kicking duties. I'm really surprised to not see Morgan moved to FB as he's been one of the Championships' top performers and surely Bris need him on the pitch. He will be a good impact sub, but will he be brought on if they need to close out the game?

For me Bris are less than the sum of their parts. They have some outstanding individuals, but they don't play as an effective unit. I saw them put 50 points past Nottingham a few months ago, yet if they'd played like that against a Jeff side they would have been murdered. The loss of Henson and Jones will be huge and I'm very surprised to see Perenise on the bench, as Bris need to bully that Wuss pack.

Wuss are the opposite to Bris, in that they don't have any star names, yet they play far more cohesively. 11-15 are all strong players who would grace a number of Jeff sides.  Their half backs do let them down though and Lamby continues to be so inconsistent and his kicking last match was dire. Their pack is Sale-esque, again no big names, but very workmanlike. They will need Creevy, Thomas and Betty to have huge games.

I have a feeling that Wuss will do it tonight, but it will be close. Dean Ryan has implemented a completely different culture and whilst they would be favourites to come straight back down he is putting together a squad that has the potential to cause a few upsets and make some of the other Jeff sides rather nervous. Wuss are hardly paupers, but despite the difference in funding I do feel they are better equipped to stay up than Bris. Having said that I do sorely miss the Bris Glaws games and would love to have them back again, although playing at Ashton Gate won't be the same as the rather iconic Mem.

I hope that you're right Hong Kong Cherry but it'll be tight either way I reckon... Wuss will need to be at their very best to beat Bristol even without Henson and Jones.

Incidentally, they're reporting on local radio (pinch of salt time perhaps) that promotion is worth £2 million in terms of additional funding for The Warriors as well as obviously being worth a lot to the City too.

chris_501 wrote:Bristol look more affected by injuries from the first leg. No Henson or Ryan Jones. Nick Robinson in to replace Morgan. Surprised to see Maule dropped to the bench.

Wuss name the same team. Nice sunny day but lots of rain due later, it could be a very interesting one.

Yep, it's lovely just now but, as you say, possibility of rain between 6-8pm which could make the pitch a bit slick.

Teams?

With Scots on both sides I am fairly neutral on this, although I'd like to see Robbo coaching in the Aviva Premiership again.

My prediction is that Worcester will win.

The Saint wrote:Teams?

They're at the top of this thread The Saint - I edited them in.

Edit: Main team news is Wuss unchanged whilst Henson and Jones are out for Bristol.

funnyExiledScot wrote:With Scots on both sides I am fairly neutral on this, although I'd like to see Robbo coaching in the Aviva Premiership again.

My prediction is that Worcester will win.

Stub, I'm surprised it's only worth an additional £2m. I appreciate you'll still receive the parachute payment, but with the new TV deal in place I'd have thought it would have added a lot more.

Good luck tonight and hopefully we can pick up a win at your place on Sunday too!