Pro12 FINAL - Glasgow Warriors v Munster Rugby, 30 May

First topic message reminder :

                                       
31 GLASGOW WARRIORS v MUNSTER RUGBY 13
Saturday 30 May 2015
KO: 18:30
Ravenhill, Belfast

Live on Sky Sports/TG4/BBC Sport Scotland

Referee: Nigel Owens (WRU, 127th competition game)
Assistant Referees: 1) Ian Davies, 2) Sean Brickell, 4) Gwyn Morris, 5) Wayne Davies (all WRU )
Citing Commissioner: Stefano Marrama (FIR)
TMO: Derek Bevan (WRU)

A. Head to Head - Aggregate

25 Played 25
9 Wins 15
15 Losses 9
1 Draws 1
46 Tries 63
36 Conversions 42
64 Penalties 54
1 Drop Goals 1
491 Points 564
25 Avg. Age 27

B. Head to Head - Recently

Sat 28 Feb 2015 - Munster Rugby 22 - 10 Glasgow Warriors

Sat 20 Dec 2014 - Glasgow Warriors 21 - 18 Munster Rugby

Fri 16 May 2014 (PO) -  Glasgow Warriors 16 - 15 Munster Rugby

Sat 12 Apr 2014 - Munster Rugby 5 - 22 Glasgow Warriors

Fri 25 Oct 2013 - Glasgow Warriors 6 - 13 Munster Rugby

C. Run-In

Glasgow Warriors

22/05/15 - Glasgow 16 - 14 Ulster

16/05/15 Glasgow 32 - 10 Ulster

08/05/15 Ospreys 21 - 10 Glasgow

Munster Rugby

23/05/15 Munster 21 - 18 Ospreys

16/05/15 Munster 50 - 27 Dragons

09/05/15 Ulster 23 - 23 Munster

D. Teams

Glasgow Warriors

Stuart Hogg, Tommy Seymour, Richie Vernon, Peter Horne, DTH van der Merwe, Finn Russell, Henry Pyrgos, Gordon Reid, Dougie Hall, Rossouw de Klerk, Leone Nakarawa, Jonny Gray, Rob Harley, Ryan Wilson, Josh Strauss (captain).

Replacements: Fraser Brown, Jerry Yanuyanutawa, Jon Welsh, Al Kellock, Chris Fusaro, Niko Matawalu, Duncan Weir, Sean Lamont.

Munster Rugby

Felix Jones; Keith Earls, Andrew Smith, Denis Hurley (captain), Simon Zebo; Ian Keatley, Duncan Williams; Dave Kilcoyne, Eusebio Guinazu, BJ Botha; Billy Holland, Paul O'Connell; Donnacha Ryan, Paddy Butler, CJ Stander.

Replacements: Duncan Casey, James Cronin, Stephen Archer, Sean Dougall, Jack O'Donoghue, Cathal Sheridan, JJ Hanrahan, Ronan O'Mahony.

I'd have Blair down for the Al Kellock leadership award!

p.s. some credit please for my Alan Johnson postie joke.....

Right so we can loan you some of our politicians...there excellent (at ruining countries).

Anyhow back to the rugby. POM and Zebo probable to play. Murray looks out. Williams his replacement has been pretty good this year for us but we will miss Murrays control. After Keatleys rather innocuous performance last week he will either A. Bounce back and play a stormer or B. Have a nightmare - see point on Murrays control.

George Carlin wrote:So does everyone still think that Belfast was clearly a great choice to host the game?

I believe the theme we heard most when that proposition was explored on these boards earlier was that it would encourage fans to travel to a stadium already with a minimum baseload of local rugby fans. That's less of an advantage if travelling fans have nowhere to stay...

I'm wondering what kind of reception these local fans will give to Mr Matawalu

ME-109 wrote:Maybe...but momentum is a big thing with these types of issues. It appears as if people got engaged and are getting more engaged.

After this I promise I'll get back to the rugby but how was the referendum portrayed over in Ireland? As in were people more sympathetic to the nats, the union or generally ambivalent?

Hard to tell how the Irish reacted - a collection of all opinions I guess.

Some might have seen a newly Independent Self Confident Scotland as a potential threat for business and jobs in the long term, as they'd obviously be in the position to craft more distinct advantages for companies to move there that didn't require the nod of Westminster.  So increased competition from another small confident nation was something that popped up a little.  There was probably a little of that in the financial parts of the media.

But overall, I think most Irish media were actually afraid to have too opinionated an opinion   , lest they offended either of the two sides - AS, you gotta wake up and try to do business with both of them no matter what the result the night before.  If you've made opinions too strong for one side or the other then consequences might be around the corner.

I think though that a lot of Irish people in their Heart, that were observing the debates, felt it was a good time for Scotland to step up and join us as a new Independent Nation on these islands; and I don't think any negative spin overall was assumed from such a conclusion - either for Scotland itself, England, Wales &NI, or any of the relationships on these islands.  Indeed, it might have strengthened any BLOC power that the north west of Europe might have been able to wield in terms of European negotiations about all kinds into the future.

I have to say personally that the mood of Scotland to step up to Nationhood really got to me and animated me, considering we did it the vicious and bloody way in our time - and I did feel the genuine sense of sadness that those SNP voters felt when the dream was rejected by the majority.  An Independent Scotland would I feel harness and benefit from that sheer energy of Scottish Identity that was so evident during the campaign.

123456789 wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Maybe...but momentum is a big thing with these types of issues. It appears as if people got engaged and are getting more engaged.

After this I promise I'll get back to the rugby but how was the referendum portrayed over in Ireland? As in were people more sympathetic to the nats, the union or generally ambivalent?

I have friends from both sides of the coin here in Northern Ireland (I am not including the extremists in this) and the unionist ones were worried that a rise in nationalism would be bad for their take on things. An SDLP friend of mine who's a councillor told me he and other members of his party were worried that SNP's success could damage nationalism if it isn't seen to be making a huge difference. So mainly, it seems that people from here found it worrying

Personally, ambivalence rules. Who cares who's running the show or where borders are drawn on maps as long as life's good

Now back to the rugby...

The glasgow crowd will be glad to hear that the Munsterfans are having as hard a time getting a place to stay. Quite a few staying in Dublin and going up and down for match. There is one Ulster supporter on Munsterfans offering his large backgarden for tents/ or whatever to people. Bit silly cos if the limerick crowd get up there they will never leave/find their way home.

Pete330v2 wrote:

123456789 wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Maybe...but momentum is a big thing with these types of issues. It appears as if people got engaged and are getting more engaged.

After this I promise I'll get back to the rugby but how was the referendum portrayed over in Ireland? As in were people more sympathetic to the nats, the union or generally ambivalent?

Personally, ambivalence rules. Who cares who's running the show or where borders are drawn on maps as long as life's good

Never gets old:

Pete330v2 wrote:
Personally, ambivalence rules. Who cares who's running the show or where borders are drawn on maps as long as life's good

Hmmmm...the very reason I've always wanted us to become the 51st State of America..... !

SecretFly wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:
Personally, ambivalence rules. Who cares who's running the show or where borders are drawn on maps as long as life's good

Hmmmm...the very reason I've always wanted us to become the 51st State of America..... !

Nah...I go the other way. 17 Bundesland....

SecretFly wrote:Hard to tell how the Irish reacted - a collection of all opinions I guess.

Some might have seen a newly Independent Self Confident Scotland as a potential threat for business and jobs in the long term, as they'd obviously be in the position to craft more distinct advantages for companies to move there that didn't require the nod of Westminster.  So increased competition from another small confident nation was something that popped up a little.  There was probably a little of that in the financial parts of the media.

But overall, I think most Irish media were actually afraid to have too opinionated an opinion   , lest they offended either of the two sides - AS, you gotta wake up and try to do business with both of them no matter what the result the night before.  If you've made opinions too strong for one side or the other then consequences might be around the corner.

I think though that a lot of Irish people in their Heart, that were observing the debates, felt it was a good time for Scotland to step up and join us as a new Independent Nation on these islands; and I don't think any negative spin overall was assumed from such a conclusion - either for Scotland itself, England, Wales &NI, or any of the relationships on these islands.  Indeed, it might have strengthened any BLOC power that the north west of Europe might have been able to wield in terms of European negotiations about all kinds into the future.

I have to say personally that the mood of Scotland to step up to Nationhood really got to me and animated me, considering we did it the vicious and bloody way in our time - and I did feel the genuine sense of sadness that those SNP voters felt when the dream was rejected by the majority.  An Independent Scotland would I feel harness and benefit from that sheer energy of Scottish Identity that was so evident during the campaign.

The issue I had with it was that it wasn't a case of independence for the country, to me scotland is a nation regardless of its status as a political entity but as case of identity. To me I'm British first and Scottish second, I've also lived in england for the vast majority of my life so it would have impacted me in that respect. I think if there's another one in the future I think all potential scottish citizens should get the vote because overnight my citizenship would have changed and I had no say in the matter which doesn't seem particularly democratic but then as asserted previously the SNP is rather choosy when it comes to democracy.



Anyway back to the rugby any word on Connor Murray? And if he's not available who would replace him? Is there any chance that Sheridan could play because my overriding memory of him is the night we thrashed you and he was the cause of most of our tries.

ME-109 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:
Personally, ambivalence rules. Who cares who's running the show or where borders are drawn on maps as long as life's good

Hmmmm...the very reason I've always wanted us to become the 51st State of America..... !

Nah...I go the other way. 17 Bundesland....

I know. I know, ME. We've had our discussion about all that before. Like Scarlets says, I never forget.

SecretFly wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:
Personally, ambivalence rules. Who cares who's running the show or where borders are drawn on maps as long as life's good

Hmmmm...the very reason I've always wanted us to become the 51st State of America..... !

Nah...I go the other way. 17 Bundesland....

I know. I know, ME.  We've had our discussion about all that before.    Like Scarlets says, I never forget.

Oh BTW...that would mean of course that we'd meet in the midlands as we went our separate ways.  We'll take the West of Ireland for the US of A and all the lovely yank tourists in their chinos....And, we'll give Dublin 4 to the European United Socialist Republics of People's Democracies (EUSRPD).

I genuinely think you should attempt to conquer Britain, there's no one defending the west of the country just pop over discreetly, there are lots of Irish people in Britain already so there'll be no questions asked and by the time you've reached London it'll be too late.

We'll give that a go, 1234........................... after the tea.

Williams will play. Not Sheridan.

You know I never could genuinely understand the One Nation thing. British and Scottish etc. Maybe its my Irish nationalist roots (benign that is).

By the way, I see where McIlroy is making sure he'll be able to go to the game. Gamblers who bet on him should now sue him

ME-109 wrote:Williams will play. Not Sheridan.

You know I never could genuinely understand the One Nation thing. British and Scottish etc. Maybe its my Irish nationalist roots (benign that is).

I think it is quite simple really but it's just something I've lived with, my grandparents are from shetland and they always speak of Shetland, Britain, Scotland as their order of allegiance. Maybe it comes from that, but I'd never describe myself as english and one thing that really irritates me is when people refer to scotland as part of England. It's a weird one I see myself as British from scotland, but I'd rather be pretty much anything other than English. I've never understood the staunch unionist Rangers fans who wear england shirts.

I wonder if we will see a 6/2 bench split for this game.....
Starting up front with 2 big lads (any two from Grant, Reid, Cusack and Welsh) Hall, Gray, Kellock, Strauss, Fusaro, Ashe. The bench then has the two big lads above not starting, Brown, Naakarawa, Harley and Wilson for impact.
In the backs, Pyrgos, Russell, Seymour, Horne, Vernon, DTH, Hogg. With Niko and Lamont on the bench.
It'll be attritional up front, so we need to keep a lid on their pack I think. Win ugly.

Reading Toonie's article in the Scotsman today, I thought that he seemed to be hinting that Kellock and Jon Welsh might be playing.

Can't wait to see the team, I assume it is out around lunchtime as usual.

Yes, midday.

It really would be incredible if Tonny's tombola led to Welsh being selected. Nothing against Welsh, but I can't think of any other rugby team that would completely leave out a player for a semi final then shuffle things about to bring him back for the final!

Sorry, I'd overlooked his ommission from the semi, but I really rate him as a player. A lot more than Roussow. However, I am vague as to who plays tight or loose, so have no idea if I selected 2 of each or not!!
Let's hope Toonie has a more accurate understanding of his big lads!

De Klerk did not really have a great game in the semi, so a change at TH would not be that surprising. That was a bit of an odd selection in the first place, seeing as he had been out for a while and then came straight back in to start the two Ulster games. Then again, lots of Toonie selections could be considered odd!

They were two very hard games and it is hard to say just how battered some of the players will be from them, so bringing in some fresh players, particularly ones like Welsh who will hardly weaken the team may not be such a bad idea. One thing is for sure, our set piece needs to improve this week after two pretty mediocre games or else it could be a long afternoon!

Sorry guys. Roussow/De Klerk, both sort of SA chappies. Got them muddled.

Anglobraveheart wrote:Sorry guys. Roussow/De Klerk, both sort of SA chappies. Got them muddled.

They are the same person - his name is Rossouw de Klerk!

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Anglobraveheart wrote:Sorry guys. Roussow/De Klerk, both sort of SA chappies. Got them muddled.

They are the same person - his name is Rossouw de Klerk!

That has made my day!

It is a real toss up between Gordon and Reid at loosehead.

I'd go with Gordon.

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Anglobraveheart wrote:Sorry guys. Roussow/De Klerk, both sort of SA chappies. Got them muddled.

They are the same person - his name is Rossouw de Klerk!

That has made my day!

Yeah that one is a beauty.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Anglobraveheart wrote:Sorry guys. Roussow/De Klerk, both sort of SA chappies. Got them muddled.

They are the same person - his name is Rossouw de Klerk!

That has made my day!

Yeah that one is a beauty.

Thank fecc Anglo didn't try to discuss DTH VDM: that's a whole back line that is.

I don't have any idea who the Tombola will pick out today, injuries will probably be the deciding factor in a number of positions. I just hope the Tombola throws out the address of a cosy manger for Schiz and Lady Schiz.

It'd be a lot easier if they just had a proper name!!
I think we need fewer imports!
Glad I've brought some amusement. ;-)

I just had a horrible thought;
11. Rory Hughes
12. Meatball
13 Schlong
14 Selkirk Pixie
15. Bryce

Toonie sits back rubbing his hands saying, "They'll never have planned for that."

Well, the big omission is Adam Ashe which surprises me. I can only imagine it's connected to the lineout under performing.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CGKwZ4lWIAAbQjZ.jpg

Oh well
Here's the team
15. Hogg
14. Seymour
13. Vernon
12. Horne
11. DTH
10. Dancer
9. Henners
8. Bluto
7.Batman
6. Harley
5. Naka
4. Gray
3. Roussow & De Klelk
2 Hall
1. Shrek

Jerry Brown Angela back up front row
Big Al
Fozzie
Niko
Meatball
Schlong

The Tombola does it again; Batman at 7!! Harley back in!!! Jerry and Angela in the 23!!!!

Backs - as expected, happy with that.

Forwards - the tombola strikes again!

Ashe, Grant, Cusak, McArthur all missing out, Wilson at 7, Dougie Hall brought back in, Kellock on the bench - Munster certainly wouldn't have been expecting this!

Harley has maybe been brought back in to 'do a Lydiate' - i.e. his sole purpose is to (try to) stop CJ Stander.

I like the look of that team, and Wilson at 7 is clearly a nod to coping with the power of the Munster pack.

Naka and Gray has to be the right call at lock. No room for sentimentality here, and hopefully, with the game in the bag, the Ruck Inspector can be unleashed for one final hurrah.

I'm on a non-rugby stag do, so will probably miss it. Best of luck!

The backs picked themselves but a few surprises up front as we might have expected.

To be fair, Ryan Wilson played well in both the games he game on as a sub and Harley has had a rest now and we can only assume he will be back to his best. Very tough on Adam Ashe, but unfortunately someone was going to miss out.

The front row again is a bit of a surprise, De Klerk, who I did not think did brilliantly last week, is the only constant. No-one other than Reid really putting their hands up though, McArthur can't really have any complaints and Jerry always gives it a good go. Bit surprised about big Mike, but maybe those two games took a lot out of him. He is still being eased back in. It looks as though Murray may have had his time though, domestically as well as internationally!

Nematode wrote:

Ah...so Munster did publish their 'Wanted' poster afterall.

Backs are spot on, pack is not exactly what I was expecting.

I can see why they have gone for that pack. Certainly going for as powerful a pack as possible to match Munster. Also the weather forecast is due for a lot of rain close to kick off so looking like it is going to be even more of a physical game hence Fusaro not starting and Ashe being dropped.
Think the change at hooker is good, McArthur was poor last week and his line out throwing was atrocious. Hall will come in and steady the ship there.
Only slight concern regarding the pack is the impact from the bench. Front row impact is good. Kellock will have an impact through his leadership but think I would have gone Ashe over Fusaro.

With the potential to bring Niko and Fusaro on for the death, we have the potential to speed the game up considerably and there will no doubt be some tired bodies out there. Fraser Brown as well is a very good player in the loose.

It is very hard on Ashe, but it was always going to be very hard on someone who deserved to play.

I think the thinking behind the back row is that Harley is clearly there to do a job on stander and for his height in the line out, at which point it comes between Strauss, Wilson, Fusaro and Ashe for the 7 and 8 jersey, Strauss and Ashe can't play 7 and Strauss is near enough the first name on the team sheet and plays better when there's more carriers in the pack hence Wilson.

Although it may be a case of too many Chiefs and not enough Indians with that pack, Nakarawa, Wilson and Strauss are primarily carriers rather than grafters and Munster have an incredibly efficient pack, also Reid and Gray like to carry a lot as well. It's clearly an exceptionally mobile team but the selection of Kellock on the bench is an odd one, if we are chasing the game surely you don't bring off Nakarawa or Gray for Kellock?

The backs he had very little manoeuvrability with given the injuries but the Munster back line is clearly not brilliant especially if Murray doesn't make the cut.

I think the game will come down to the packs is Munster gain complete domincance they'll win, if Glasgow can at least come close to parity I think we'll do it.

Ironically Wilson is one of the few players in the team release that doesn't look like he's part of a police lineup, although I suspect I'd grinning if I assaulted someone and got off virtually scot free before returning for the biggest game in the history of my club. Never mind as with all things if Glasgow win the game I'm fickle enough to forget batman's transgressions.

Munster side is up;

15

Felix Jones


14

Keith Earls


13

Andrew Smith


12

Denis Hurley


11

Simon Zebo


10

Ian Keatley


9

Duncan Williams


1

Dave Kilcoyne


2

Eusebio Guinazu


3

BJ Botha


4

Billy Holland


5

Paul O'Connell


6

Donnacha Ryan


7

Paddy Butler


8

CJ Stander



16

Duncan Casey


17

James Cronin


18

Stephen Archer


19

Sean Dougall


20

Jack O'Donoghue


21

Cathal Sheridan


22

JJ Hanrahan


23

Ronan O'Mahony

No Connor Murray or Peter O Mahoney

POM and Murray out - definitely a blow for POC's mighty maroon mazongas:

Felix Jones; Keith Earls, Andrew Smith, Denis Hurley - capt., Simon Zebo; Ian Keatley, Duncan Williams; Dave Kilcoyne, Eusebio Guinazu, BJ Botha; Billy Holland, Paul O'Connell; Donnacha Ryan, Paddy Butler, CJ Stander.

Replacements: Duncan Casey, James Cronin, Stephen Archer, Sean Dougall, Jack O'Donoghue, Cathal Sheridan, JJ Hanrahan, Ronan O'Mahony.

Definitely advantage Glasgow in the backs.

All depends on what kind of ball they get

JJ has his usual "F**k you, you're leaving" bench position I see. Hopefully Keatley has had his telescopic sights reset by a flown-in top secret visitation from DropKickO'Gara

Will only say one thing about the Glasgow team, i'm utterly disappointed Cusack and to a lesser extent Ashe aren't included. Welsh is leaving the club and on form hasn't even played better than Big Mike.

Anyway hope it's a good one, if it's anywhere near as good as last year semi it's going to be cracker.

VinceWLB wrote:Will only say one thing about the Glasgow team, i'm utterly disappointed Cusack and to a lesser extent Ashe aren't included. Welsh is leaving the club and on form hasn't even played better than Big Mike.

Anyway hope it's a good one, if it's anywhere near as good as last year semi it's going to be cracker.

We don't know what those two games took out of Big Mike, he is still being eased back into full fitness and has not managed more than two games in a row since his comeback. That may well be the reason. With Ashe I expect it is more tactical and the fact that Ryan Wilson probably outplayed him last week.

George Carlin wrote:POM and Murray out - definitely a blow for POC's mighty maroon mazongas:

Felix Jones; Keith Earls, Andrew Smith, Denis Hurley - capt., Simon Zebo; Ian Keatley, Duncan Williams; Dave Kilcoyne, Eusebio Guinazu, BJ Botha; Billy Holland, Paul O'Connell; Donnacha Ryan, Paddy Butler, CJ Stander.

Replacements: Duncan Casey, James Cronin, Stephen Archer, Sean Dougall, Jack O'Donoghue, Cathal Sheridan, JJ Hanrahan, Ronan O'Mahony.

Two very big players to be missing that would leave most teams crippled. Munster are a great team though, and despite missing a few key individuals, the whole is certainly greater than its parts when it comes to Munster. However, if Keatley/Williams have one of their off days, then it is most certainly game over and Glasgow will win.

Does that mean that POM wasn't fully fit for the Ospreys game?